Room Nukes vs uh... everything else.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

That's how games go.

DE has shown time and time again they like less restrictions, power fantasy and fun. And we support them for that. 

That's why they're making Soul frame for all the people complaining. 

There's probably hundreds of thousands of different game services, so it's up to you to find a game that's slow enough or fast enough for you.

Also: recruit chat/find a friend with similar interests etc.

[NineChameleon]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

That's how games go.

DE has shown time and time again they like less restrictions, power fantasy and fun. And we support them for that. 

That's why they're making Soul frame for all the people complaining. 

There's probably hundreds of thousands of different game services, so it's up to you to find a game that's slow enough or fast enough for you.

Also: recruit chat/find a friend with similar interests etc.

Again, not hating on the playstyle. Dont really mind if people play it in the same group as me, am thankful for the people who do enjoy that playstyle etc etc. 

I am quite happy to play solo, I only touch public when Im affinity farming, relic opening, Eidolon hunting, Its Boreal on the Archon Rotation and Netracells because keyglyphs are less of a hassle when you dont need to carry all of them. 

So no, I dont need to "find a game that's slow enough or fast enough" really. I'm quite happy here. Concerned for the future maybe, but happy. And I will probably be going to soulframe when it is finished being made. 

But this isn't complaining. Please dont accuse everyone with concerns of complaining. This is me expressing worry, but also curiosity of why people use this playstyle. If the design of the game pushes for it, that's a very different thing from enjoyment after all. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 minutes ago, NineChameleon said:

Again, not hating on the playstyle. Dont really mind if people play it in the same group as me, am thankful for the people who do enjoy that playstyle etc etc. 

I am quite happy to play solo, I only touch public when Im affinity farming, relic opening, Eidolon hunting, Its Boreal on the Archon Rotation and Netracells because keyglyphs are less of a hassle when you dont need to carry all of them. 

So no, I dont need to "find a game that's slow enough or fast enough" really. I'm quite happy here. Concerned for the future maybe, but happy. And I will probably be going to soulframe when it is finished being made. 

But this isn't complaining. Please dont accuse everyone with concerns of complaining. This is me expressing worry, but also curiosity of why people use this playstyle. If the design of the game pushes for it, that's a very different thing from enjoyment after all. 

People use the playstyle because it's fun. 

Gaming isn't new anymore, we all did our time and played slower paced souls-like games and really strict MMO. 

Those games are fun, but are too restrictive after awhile. 

8 players in a raid: 1-2 healer, 1-2 tank, 1-2 bard/buffer/support and 3-4 dps. Once you get into a good clan/linkshell you'll likely be designated a role and it'll likely be support since all the established players take the dps spots.

[Xzorn]

It's not a recent thing at all. It's almost a decade old problem they just kept making worse.

The first shift was Damage 2.0 and the introduction of Survival. This shift continued to move for many years as DE insisted on keeping players under level 100 while actual frame / weapon performance had gone far beyond. Many skills like WoF were casualties of this player power creep. Single target still had value but only level 300+ and usually a secondary weapon. V. Marelok, Akstilleto, Sicarus Prime where often used by endurance runners to deal with high level priority targets.

The next big shift was Steel Path. No idea why they decided more enemies = better gameplay.

The next big shift was nerfing enemies defense scaling so AoE always worked despite level scaling.

Now we're here with a room of 50 enemies made of paper. What reasonable choice is left?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

8 hours ago, NineChameleon said:

We already have frames that are left behind. Caliban, Lavos, Sevagoth, Citrine, Limbo. Frames that have almost never been looked at since their release save once or twice. And are written off by the community because they aren't as good at doing what they do as other frames. 

I'll give you Caliban and limbo, but the others? nah. they all got augments that make them a LOT better.

Lavos just got an augment that makes him an elemental powerhouse with any weapon. there's never been a better time to be a Lavos main.

Sevagoth got one that's practically a straight upgrade and turns him into the kind of AoE nuker you're worried about.

Citrine's augment is an even better version of Banshee's Sonar, which was already one of the most busted powers there is, but people sleep on Banshee and don't realise it.

now you may say "augments are band-aids", and you'd be right, and I'd definitely prefer actual base kit reworks like what Inaros and Hydroid got, but that's up to DE. 

5 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

I've heard Black Desert also kinda does this.... but Black Desert feels like a whale-fishing mobile game that just got too big and needed to be put in PC. Complete with a dumb af "energy" system where you can only do so many tasks a day, and barely functional afk mechanics. So, absolute trash game in comparison.

I played that game briefly, the combat *is* satisfying, but everyhtign else was what put me off. the energy system is in a bunch of other games too as a well known Gacha Mechanic (Genshin Impact/Honkai StarRail has it too), and in a way, we have it in warframe in the form of Standing caps. 

[NineChameleon]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I'll give you Caliban and limbo, but the others? nah. they all got augments that make them a LOT better.

Lavos just got an augment that makes him an elemental powerhouse with any weapon. there's never been a better time to be a Lavos main.

Sevagoth got one that's practically a straight upgrade and turns him into the kind of AoE nuker you're worried about.

Citrine's augment is an even better version of Banshee's Sonar, which was already one of the most busted powers there is, but people sleep on Banshee and don't realise it.

now you may say "augments are band-aids", and you'd be right, and I'd definitely prefer actual base kit reworks like what Inaros and Hydroid got, but that's up to DE. 

Sevagoth's one is good on paper until you play him and realise his energy economy is.... awful. He's just a bit too fragile to bypass it with hunter adrenaline too without               archon shards. 

Lavos' augment is very good yes.

I didn't actually know about Citrine's augment. But considering I can count the number of Citrine players I've had in public groups in the last year on half of one hand... I'd say she's still very overlooked. And I've never seen another Lavos in a public group. 

I do see augments as band aids yes. The same way I see Helminth as a band aid. Doesn't make them bad, but they also aren't a true fix. 

For instance, whenever I bring up Limbo in the discussion of frames that badly need reworks. Everyone always brings up Silence Limbo. I've played Silence Limbo. It does work. But a frame should not require helminth to function at a basic level in modern warframe. Same with Augments. 

But to add to all this, it took TWO YEARS for sevagoth to get a singular augment. It's taken FOUR YEARS for Lavos to get to 2. So the existence of Augments doesn't to me disprove the idea that they are forgotten. 

Citrine isn't nearly as forgotten as they are its true. But she's still barely played despite what her strengths are. Because her strengths aren't what is "good" anymore. Same with Limbo.

Lavos and Sevagoth are both capable of nuking its true. Lavos needs Cedo to do it and Sevagoth has his own issues with doing such as extremely expensive abilities if you actually want his 1 and 2 to do decent damage and needing to land kills with his weapon not abilities to activate his augment. 

But all of this doesn't even disprove my concern. My concern is that DE is envolving content PURELY in the aoe nuke direction. Which.... at least 2 of the augments you mentioned just serve to prove. 

[HonorGuard2074]

5 hours ago, Yousho said:

I think the problem is actually enemy and mission design. 

 

There needs to be a reason to use other things. 

There needs to be things that aren't solved by AoE nukes. 

Back in the day, this uses to be Bursa / Nox / Juggernaut etc,  but things have gotten so insane. 

Now AoE nukes do as much as single target damage sources, but to everything...

Agreed there, so many of the newer missions harm the idea of not killing as fast as possible 

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

Citrine's augment is an even better version of Banshee's Sonar, which was already one of the most busted powers there is, but people sleep on Banshee and don't realise it.

 

I think it's more you don't really need a 12x Sonar anymore. You hardly need a 3x group buff to go well into the thousands in levels.

Citrine is good for other reasons though. She's another DR stacker for actually surviving without Shield Gate shenanigans.
She's one of two frames in the game that can amp up status rates which is esp potent when utilized correctly.

[ReddyDisco]

AOE will always be dominant in most content, however certain game modes need high single target dps like disruption, i like to use vasto incarnon and boltor incarnon for those. Can't say i'm a huge fan of aoe launchers but weapons with punchthrough i'm a fan of, arca plasmor, nataruk.

13 hours ago, NineChameleon said:

We already have frames that are left behind. Caliban, Lavos, Sevagoth, Citrine, Limbo. Frames that have almost never been looked at since their release save once or twice.

Citrine is certainly not left behind, she's top tier. just got a pretty good augment last update. i use her in most content comfortably.

Was never a fan of lavos but have seen people use him to great effect

Sevagoth, Caliban and limbo i can agree are in a sorry state.

Edited April 13 by ReddyDisco

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

13 hours ago, NineChameleon said:

Not entirely sure why I'm making a thread but I felt I wanted to talk about it in a place DE might see the discussion. As well as to other people.

The general trend in warframe for a long time now has pushed the meta towards aoe nukes. Both in frames and in weapons. "Meta" seem to me to depend on how fast something can clear a room. It's why frames such as Mesa and Saryn have stayed such main stays. It was why World on Fire Ember was so popular. It's why people love Dante. It's an efficient playstyle by all accounts but... Is it fun?

I only really stayed invested in warframe when I stopped playing meta and started playing on my preference. Making it work no matter how silly it seemed. It's why I run a melee focussed Baruuk. It's why i love Lavos. And why I will die on the hill that is Sevagoth. 

However, I can't help but notice that lately DE seems to be pushing into the direction of aoe nukes. With weapons like the Onos and Ruvox whose incarnon is aoe based. Abilities like Tragedy that hit a massive area even without range. And Augments like Divine Retribution which turn aoe CC into aoe DPS. I can't help but worry this will lead to a diversity death in the game. If every frame becomes capable of AoE nuking maps surely that'll mean everything starts to become homogenous.

Now the good thing about that is then everything is viable. If everything has an aoe nuke, then you dont NEED to pick Mesa or Saryn anymore. You can pick Nezha or Dante pretty much any frame to do the same job so you can use your preference. 

However. Where does that leave people who do builds like mine? Stuck in playing solo because the aoe nuking means I can't do much? Or just piling damage on tanky enemies like Necramechs or eximus because I've built to be able to stand in front of them and just PUNCH. 

Where does that leave weapons like bows if the only one that can aoe clear is the Lens but everything else can do it better?

Where does that leave anything that isn't just a straight aoe damage monster if DE themselves are leaning into aoe damage monsters and reversing any nerfs to them because it upsets the community? 

We already have frames that are left behind. Caliban, Lavos, Sevagoth, Citrine, Limbo. Frames that have almost never been looked at since their release save once or twice. And are written off by the community because they aren't as good at doing what they do as other frames. 

 

Not everything needs to be the best at doing what it can do. It's okay to have frames that have weaknesses and strengths. It's okay for something to not be meta. But I worry that with Dante Unbound and all the hotfixes and nerfs and buffs that have happened in the short time since it's release, that DE is going to start listening a little too much. 

So, warframe community, I have to ask. Why do you run aoe nukes besides just efficiency and speed? Is there an aspect to it you find particularly fun or engaging? Is there a reason you prefer frames that can do it? Is it just the damage that draws you to the play style or something else? 

 

Just to be clear im not making this thread to hate on the playstyle or anything like that. It has it upsides that I can see certainly even if I prefer playing differently. I'll never complain about someone who can room nuke in my group because they're doing huge amounts of work towards the objective most of the time. 

I'm making this thread out of a worry for warframe's direction. In a place where I hope DE can read it if they feel so inclined. 

When playing with any mainstream playerbase, the goal is to get rewards as quickly as possible. Playing with friends or using recruit chat (yep, it does work) is the best way to play exactly, or as close to, they way you like to play. This avoids you having to experience the traffic jam typical of popular games. 😁

[voltocitygel]

Personally, I’m not big into AoE nukes, be they warframes or weapons.

i had lots of fun with the tonkor and penta when they first came out, but the novelty wore off after awhile. I often find myself going back to weapons i just have fun using, like the dread, soma, rubico, ext. I tend to prefer low rate of fire, high damage precision weapons. They compliment volt (my favorite frame) nicely to boot. When they buffed the headshot multiplier, it really helped people with play styles like mine- but I don’t usually play on public, just because I’d rather play solo or with friends, so I’m not usually exposed to the full extent of the game’s aoe nuke capabilities. 
 

one thing worth mentioning is that a solution that helped with the prevalence of big damage aoe weapons was the ammo changes, to keep people happy with the weapons power but make it a choice about when it’s worth using them. This can largely be mitigated by carrier and ammo conversion, but it did reduce the number of people running around with a kuva zarr melting everything that exists, which tells me diversity and coexistence of these types of gameplay can be a thing, between resource requirements (ammo, or in the case of abilities, energy), damage falloff, and line of sight requirements.

 

A large part of what draws me to games is player choice and balancing of different styles of play, so that you don’t have to play the meta to be able to achieve your goals, and can instead do what you find fun. Warframe still fulfills that objective for me, and I have faith it will continue to. 

[(PSN)rexis12]

The reason everything is so 'Homogenized' to AoE DPS, is because everytime we find a different way of play, we get people screaming that since it's not solved by blasting it to death it's overpowered and it reduces challenge and it NEEDS TO BE REMOVED. 

I feel frustrated seeing post where people complain that everything is just handled with DPS, when those some people throw a fit if people suggest that other aspects of the game and mechanics are used to solve the game. 

People saying that Demolishers shouldn't be CC'd because that would 'make it too easy' when that could easily be another play style or different way of playing that game. But noooooo, "it would reduce the challenge" And then it's immune to CC and this you need DPS frame and damage resulting in the game mode where you need to Slow Down a High Priority Target in to a game mode where using mechanics to slow it down punishes you. 

Or how about people saying that healers shouldn't heal Defense Objectives. "Awww but then it would reduce the challenge if the Defense Objective gets actually Defended!!!!" It's wild that a game mode where you need to maintain the health of an objective, and Warframes that can HEAL and apply DEFENSE are objectively the worse choice due to how much their healing and defense is limited on that objective. And you people wonder why people just use DPS, when the few time Vazarin found a niche in Defense, you all screamed at the top of your lungs how horrible that this one Focus School DARES to not be a Offense Focused tool. That got Nerfed into the ground, and now Defense is literally better served bringing in an AoE Nuke than a Healer.

Most game modes are geared to you killing as fast and as much as possible. Even Alchemy, where the second part is a Parkour Check which is only followed by an extensive DPS check because you NEED to kill a lot and fast to get the Elemental things to activate the Crucible. Bring In A CC that slows down the enemy spawns, and you're objectively doing worse and that's not getting into the fact that there are enemies that further make CC worse thus limiting the actual use of it to help progress the game.

As long as that's the overall aspect of the game, people will bring that every where because that's what happens when the overall gameplay, even if there are exceptions to the overall gamemode (Eidolons for example), is... Well Overall! 

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I mean a lot of different topics are being brought up. I'll try and be concise. 

The meta, and people trying to follow the meta aren't the same thing. The meta also isn't some single universal non variable idea, that can be applied to a game like Warframe. For example the Profit Taker speed running meta is different from Survival level cap metas, is different from generally considered meta picks for the broader general game, as in Warframes or weapons that generally are most effective in general, which in context is a bit funny, but this is generally a PVE game, where usually you fight larger groups of enemies, even in modes like say Disruption and Interception. Like meta in PVE and PVP, whether solo, or squad based, will be different. 

What that also means, is that people on Forums and how they understand, talk and communicate the meta will be different... I play with a lot of peopel who attempt to follow the meta on paper... but don't actually have the knowledge or understanding of how/why their tools are considered the meta. Also, no negative judgement from me, I am not knocking such players, often when people are learning, hey need to practice and get experience, and then that often helps them understand the synergies and why such tools are the meta. That being said... there are also those who think they are the king of the game, because they watched a BigDeeWarframe69 video on best Warframes and weapons and copied the builds, and think they are the best. 

Meta can have an objective criteria (but then the emphasis is on actually establishing an objective criteria, and some people can do that better than others), and fun is often largely subjective. 

Also what does one mean by "lately?", AOE has been prevalent in Warframe for a long time, but AOE itself is also a term like meta, where framing and context matters. Onos and Ruvox could even be considered anti-examples, because of how relatively underwhelming they are. 

Mentioning Lavos, Citrine and Sevagoth alongside Caliban and Limbo? Subjective interpretation sure, but is that actually accurate?

Worrying about the death of diversity in the game, can be valid, but it can also essentially be meaningless, unless people can also establish a somewhat objective criteria, thats credible or reaches consensus some way. Especially when we ask questions around "lately". as in the last year? Last 2? 5? Not just that but AOE in itself is such a poorly communicated term in forums. You know the Trumna has AOE? Not the alt fire, the actual primary fire, has a small AOE component. Its obviously not the same kind of AOE as the alt fire or Bramma, but neither is the Tenet Arca Plasma, which also has a different kind of AOE to normal Arca Plasma. Citrine has an AOE ability, but its more of a cone, different to say Xaku, which is different to say Saryn, which is different to say Frost. 

There is deeper nuance here, and if we just generalise it all, well a lot of context and meaning is loss. People have also been worrying about the death of diversity in Warframe since 2013. Then some of them who stopped playing in 2014, might look at Warframe gameplay in 2024 and think "see i was right", but thats where subjectivity and understanding comes into play. 

Personally I regularly play "off meta" because thats more fun to me. Daikyu, Paris (prior to its Incarnon), Tigris, Sybaris, Ivara, apparently Citrine and Lavos... in PUBS, and I usually have stuff to do. Actually often I end up over performing, but naturally it also depends. If i load into a star chart Exterminate and Capture, if there is a someone with an AOE weapon or like a Xaku, do I get to do much? No... but thats more to do with you know, star chart level Capture or Exterminate where people want to rush cracking Relics. 

To be clear, I think its a valid concern to have, but man there are a lot of topics being covered here and not all of them are necessarily grounded enough, and not necessarily the sort that should be taken for granted. 

 

[Traumtulpe]

14 hours ago, NineChameleon said:

We already have frames that are left behind. Caliban, Lavos, Sevagoth, Citrine, Limbo. Frames that have almost never been looked at since their release save once or twice. And are written off by the community because they aren't as good at doing what they do as other frames.

"aren't as good at doing what they do as other frames" doesn't even apply to Limbo, his abilities straight up do nothing against anything that isn't a trash mob, the absolute best you can do as Limbo is to *not use his abilities at all*, because they would accomplish very little anyhow, and just get in the way of your group.

[DrivaMain]

3 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Or how about people saying that healers shouldn't heal Defense Objectives. "Awww but then it would reduce the challenge if the Defense Objective gets actually Defended!!!!" It's wild that a game mode where you need to maintain the health of an objective, and Warframes that can HEAL and apply DEFENSE are objectively the worse choice due to how much their healing and defense is limited on that objective. And you people wonder why people just use DPS, when the few time Vazarin found a niche in Defense, you all screamed at the top of your lungs how horrible that this one Focus School DARES to not be a Offense Focused tool. That got Nerfed into the ground, and now Defense is literally better served bringing in an AoE Nuke than a Healer.

You're incorrect on this stance. The reason why defence objective healing methods, Vazarin included, nerfed to the ground because of Scarlet Spear. DE doesn't like that Warframe players use Khora's Venari to heal Scarlet Spear missions' defence objective (The Oplink). At first, this interaction (Venari heal) was disabled, then DE proceeded to rework the defence objective healing interaction game-wide in the following update after Scarlet Spear. The aftermath? Burst healing is dead while sustained healing like Venari and Motes reign supreme. 

This was when [DE]Scott handled DE's balancing department, dubbed the "Guy who nerfs everything in Warframe" or the "DE Fun Police" by the community. 

Edited April 13 by DrivaMain

[Loza03]

17 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Same people that like this sort of playstyle are the people that thought the Megiddo scene in the slime anime was the coolest thing an anime protagonist has ever done.

 

16 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Same people that like this sort of playstyle are the people that thought the Megiddo scene in the slime anime was the coolest thing an anime protagonist has ever done.

This is actually an excellent example. Megiddo is a great scene! But not because "ooh, look how strong slime is!" After all, there's like, a dozen such examples throughout. And usually the anime moves on from them in fairly short order because they're not that important.

Megiddo is a great scene because it acknowledges the monstrousness at play in war. Whilst all the secondary characters are visibly angry and experiencing sadistic glee in revenge, Rimuru (who generally is noted for his empathy and kindness and who consistently tries to avoid killing sentient beings up to this point) has his face hidden behind a mask and is silent, listening to the count of the number of lives he's ending. The whole thing is framed as a pointless tragedy caused by the greed of a handful, extending the suffering thousandfold.

But a lot of people just see "Wow! Slime is so powerful!" 

Far be it to suggest that Warframe should characterise missions like this - but the point I'm making is that room clearing is a pretty shallow form of gameplay and power fantasy. A game needs much more to be great.

[Loza03]

13 hours ago, Xzorn said:

The next big shift was nerfing enemies defense scaling so AoE always worked despite level scaling.

This one was so frustrating, because it was supposedly DE finally addressing the longstanding issue of armoured enemies being so much tankier than everything else (which makes options that aren't aimed at armour much less useful).

And then they just kind of didn't.

Like they showed that whole 'S-curve graph' that still showed that armour scaling was immensely better than everything else, just slightly less immensely, acted like that was fixed, and then didn't adjust anything else to the new standard which still wasn't a good standard.

[NineChameleon]

5 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I mean a lot of different topics are being brought up. I'll try and be concise. 

Just gonna snip the quote because its pretty long. 

By my mistake. I was meaning the more "general" meta. Eidolon meta and Archon meta do absolutely require high single target burst. Which is where sniper rifles and shotguns have that niche. However, what I meant by "diversity death" has kinda been touched on already by a couple of other people. 

We're rapidly approaching a situation in which all AoE weapons are as effective as single target weapons. More in some cases. And in that case, the niche's that some weapons have in their individual meta's are going to be overtaken by the same things that are meta in for example extermination, or survival. Because there's not discernible difference. 

Same with Warframes. You might have a really strong single target debuff, but if its functionally the same as an aoe debuff. The aoe debuff is more likely to be used because its applicable in more places. So frames start to forgo single target debuffs and are just made with aoe ones. 

Nyx vs Revenant comes to mind. Nyx has an incredible mind control ability that can do a lot of damage if you  use it right. But revenant can have 7 thralls at once and they can deal damage in an area if he kills them. So if you want a mind control frame, why play nyx instead of revenant? 

Generalising I know. Since there is more to both frames than mind control. But if a player is looking specifically for those things. They might favour revenant. 

[NineChameleon]

10 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

This is actually an excellent example. Megiddo is a great scene! But not because "ooh, look how strong slime is!" After all, there's like, a dozen such examples throughout. And usually the anime moves on from them in fairly short order because they're not that important.

Megiddo is a great scene because it acknowledges the monstrousness at play in war. Whilst all the secondary characters are visibly angry and experiencing sadistic glee in revenge, Rimuru (who generally is noted for his empathy and kindness and who consistently tries to avoid killing sentient beings up to this point) has his face hidden behind a mask and is silent, listening to the count of the number of lives he's ending. The whole thing is framed as a pointless tragedy caused by the greed of a handful, extending the suffering thousandfold.

But a lot of people just see "Wow! Slime is so powerful!" 

Far be it to suggest that Warframe should characterise missions like this - but the point I'm making is that room clearing is a pretty shallow form of gameplay and power fantasy. A game needs much more to be great.

I wish I could give you more likes. The original post was lost on me because i'd never seen the show. 

But yes. I know people enjoy aoe nuking. As I've said multiple times Im not here to hate on the playstyle or try and say its wrong. Just that its only one style. And there are other ways we could be playing that just inherently are not longer as valuable because DE themselves seem to be leaning into the AoE damage crowd. Or, since people have tried to be pedantic, the dps crowd in general. 

 

EDIT: For context because I feel a lot of people are misunderstanding why I made this thread.

I made this thread after doing a netracell run with a Dante, A nezha using the new augment, and a max range protea who was stacking massive slash grenade aoes as large the room. I was on Baruuk and, while I did find a corridor that was out of line of sight of all of them and hold that because their skills couldn't quite reach it. It gave me time to think. 

Because its not the first all aoe group i've been in. 

That time to think is why I made this. Because i was looking at the weapons I like to use. (And that I have made work on Steelpath) and realised that only really the Grimoire is aoe. And I realised that those weapons are never spoken about, never really used by others. Often condemned as "bad" even though my grimoire build shreds in steel path. So I made this thread, I wanted to ask people why they prefered AoE while also raising the question of "are things too similar now?" 

Edited April 13 by NineChameleon

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb voltocitygel:

A large part of what draws me to games is player choice and balancing of different styles of play, so that you don’t have to play the meta to be able to achieve your goals, and can instead do what you find fun. Warframe still fulfills that objective for me, and I have faith it will continue to. 

Actually there is no meta here. because content isn't there for that. I can play with ancient nekros and boltor prime just like from 2013/2014 and will master almost all of the content.
Even now I still don't play with the most effective builds, weapons etc. because the sounds, gameplay and appearance of the weapons are more important to me than performance

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 hour ago, NineChameleon said:

Just gonna snip the quote because its pretty long. 

By my mistake. I was meaning the more "general" meta. Eidolon meta and Archon meta do absolutely require high single target burst. Which is where sniper rifles and shotguns have that niche. However, what I meant by "diversity death" has kinda been touched on already by a couple of other people. 

We're rapidly approaching a situation in which all AoE weapons are as effective as single target weapons. More in some cases. And in that case, the niche's that some weapons have in their individual meta's are going to be overtaken by the same things that are meta in for example extermination, or survival. Because there's not discernible difference. 

Same with Warframes. You might have a really strong single target debuff, but if its functionally the same as an aoe debuff. The aoe debuff is more likely to be used because its applicable in more places. So frames start to forgo single target debuffs and are just made with aoe ones. 

Nyx vs Revenant comes to mind. Nyx has an incredible mind control ability that can do a lot of damage if you  use it right. But revenant can have 7 thralls at once and they can deal damage in an area if he kills them. So if you want a mind control frame, why play nyx instead of revenant? 

Generalising I know. Since there is more to both frames than mind control. But if a player is looking specifically for those things. They might favour revenant. 

 

All good, and you are good too, I already know you were probably talking about the general meta, I just brought up the other activities to point out and illustrate how nuanced the meta can be, as far as different peoples interpretations, meanings and how and why that is communicated. For example, right now Netracells , Deep Archimedea are pretty popular higher end missions, and you could arguably add Archon Hunts into that. Those are different from Survival. Not necessarily as much as a difference as Eidolons though. So usually people can understand why and how Eidolon meta is different, because its a more obvious difference, but some might not realise how more similar missions can differ as well. 

Then people also need to consider that certain "off meta" tools, can also have meta builds, and that in Warframe, many modes, the difference between "meta" and "off meta" can just mean a few seconds if that of kill difference, and may often touch on something else more subjective, or semi related like convenience or ease of use, or reliability or consistency. 

I still don't know how you might define and classify AOE weapons to agree or disagree with your statement. I have been on the forums for a while, and seen people include or exclude weapons like Cedo, Natauruk, Tenet Arca Plasma, Trumna, Braton Incarnon. It also reminds me a little bit of when AOE were nerfed, and pre Torid getting an Incarnon. The game has a lot of "AOE" weapons, like the Alternox, Afentis that aren't great by themselves, so depending what you mean by AOE, I might disagree with those sort of weapons, compared to others, potentially. Like a lot of people often forget that fire rate and reload and ammo economy is also a variable when comparing weapons. Several weapons can be more effective in situations where you can spray bullets rapidly across a room and wipe enemies fast. Weapons like Phenmor or Burston Prime or Tenora can differ compared to say... normal Burston Prime or Sybaris. Likewise punch through and hitbox projectile size. Nuance exists. 

I don't necessarily disagree with your Revenant and Nyx comparison, generally. There are some instances where Nyx can have more utility, they might be more niche, but like how the mind controlled enemies abilities and teleport can work, in regards to say defence objectives, I can think of situations where Nyx would be a more convenient choice. Also, I find your example kind of interesting given that whilst Revenant can sort of AOE nuke, with some of his abilities synergy, a reason he started to become more popular in recent years is because his tankiness/survival and content that has penalties for dying, as far as worries/concerns over how DE is positioning their game. 

Generalising is totally fine, especially again when trying to cover so much, I understand, but sometimes it misses out on context and there is the matter of framing as well. To my personal perspective, if I had to generalise as well, well... I am someone who generally doesn't use "AOE" (again though potentially depending on how you want to define it), but its not such a worry to me, and on top of that DE's design to me, doesn't seem to fall that way. To myself their push seems for diversity, because overall diversity isn't necessarily the same as meta diversity, and a lot of weapons, game modes, tools, Warframes they have introduced in recent years... Like for example, again, Netracells and Deep Archimedea punish death a bit more severely than other modes and traditional Warframe. Players are incentivised to pick Warframes that can survive, and are a bit more robust. Support as well. Many Incarnon weapons can clear rooms fast, but you need to work a bit more than older traditional AOE weapons. These you need to at least aim to unlock the more powerful modes. A type of engagement they like. Introducing enemies that are adverse to AOE, and other design choices. 

Not that I think many of your points aren't accurate either, because I think many of them are, and yes... even when I generalise, I write a lot lol, but yeah. 

[NineChameleon]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

All good, and you are good too, I already know you were probably talking about the general meta, I just brought up the other activities to point out and illustrate how nuanced the meta can be, as far as different peoples interpretations, meanings and how and why that is communicated. For example, right now Netracells , Deep Archimedea are pretty popular higher end missions, and you could arguably add Archon Hunts into that. Those are different from Survival. Not necessarily as much as a difference as Eidolons though. So usually people can understand why and how Eidolon meta is different, because its a more obvious difference, but some might not realise how more similar missions can differ as well. 

Then people also need to consider that certain "off meta" tools, can also have meta builds, and that in Warframe, many modes, the difference between "meta" and "off meta" can just mean a few seconds if that of kill difference, and may often touch on something else more subjective, or semi related like convenience or ease of use, or reliability or consistency. 

I still don't know how you might define and classify AOE weapons to agree or disagree with your statement. I have been on the forums for a while, and seen people include or exclude weapons like Cedo, Natauruk, Tenet Arca Plasma, Trumna, Braton Incarnon. It also reminds me a little bit of when AOE were nerfed, and pre Torid getting an Incarnon. The game has a lot of "AOE" weapons, like the Alternox, Afentis that aren't great by themselves, so depending what you mean by AOE, I might disagree with those sort of weapons, compared to others, potentially. Like a lot of people often forget that fire rate and reload and ammo economy is also a variable when comparing weapons. Several weapons can be more effective in situations where you can spray bullets rapidly across a room and wipe enemies fast. Weapons like Phenmor or Burston Prime or Tenora can differ compared to say... normal Burston Prime or Sybaris. Likewise punch through and hitbox projectile size. Nuance exists. 

I don't necessarily disagree with your Revenant and Nyx comparison, generally. There are some instances where Nyx can have more utility, they might be more niche, but like how the mind controlled enemies abilities and teleport can work, in regards to say defence objectives, I can think of situations where Nyx would be a more convenient choice. Also, I find your example kind of interesting given that whilst Revenant can sort of AOE nuke, with some of his abilities synergy, a reason he started to become more popular in recent years is because his tankiness/survival and content that has penalties for dying, as far as worries/concerns over how DE is positioning their game. 

Generalising is totally fine, especially again when trying to cover so much, I understand, but sometimes it misses out on context and there is the matter of framing as well. To my personal perspective, if I had to generalise as well, well... I am someone who generally doesn't use "AOE" (again though potentially depending on how you want to define it), but its not such a worry to me, and on top of that DE's design to me, doesn't seem to fall that way. To myself their push seems for diversity, because overall diversity isn't necessarily the same as meta diversity, and a lot of weapons, game modes, tools, Warframes they have introduced in recent years... Like for example, again, Netracells and Deep Archimedea punish death a bit more severely than other modes and traditional Warframe. Players are incentivised to pick Warframes that can survive, and are a bit more robust. Support as well. Many Incarnon weapons can clear rooms fast, but you need to work a bit more than older traditional AOE weapons. These you need to at least aim to unlock the more powerful modes. A type of engagement they like. Introducing enemies that are adverse to AOE, and other design choices. 

Not that I think many of your points aren't accurate either, because I think many of them are, and yes... even when I generalise, I write a lot lol, but yeah. 

Hah, you writing so much isn't a bad thing! I like how thought out your responses are. 

I am prone to worrying overmuch. (Anxiety sufferer). I suppose I look at the more recent warframes (Recent here meaning the last 3 or 4) So lets say, Dante, Qorvex, Dagath and Kullervo. And I see 4 frames that all have a 4 that is a room clear. 4 frames that all have a status leaning, and 3 of 4 frames that all have overguard or a death gate. 

So 

Dante - Tragedy, Slash and Overguard

Qorvex - Pillar/Crucible Blast, Radiation and Diometric Guard

Dagath - Cavalry/Doom, Viral and Grave Spirit

Kullervo - Collective Curse, Slash and Overguard

Now, again, I'm not saying any of these frames are bad. But when I look at it like this I see a definite similarity. As I said in my original post, there is certainly an upside. More universal viability and therefore more choice. But when everything is so similar the community, at least from w hat i've seen across forums and reddit, tends towards "if it doesn't do it better than what we already have what's the point". Which is why Dagath died off so fast (ha ha) even though she still has a playerbase and why Qorvex started to vanish after Dante came out. 

I'm not saying they dont have playerbases at all. Just that the similarity between frames causes others to become unused and eventually left behind by DE as a result. 

Again as you say, there are Niches. I was avoiding talking about Revenants Tankiness because I know people use him for that reason. I was looking at his more gimmick mechanic compared to a similar frame with a similar gimmick. Even if you want to look at his tankiness, I'm sure we can look at another frame with a similar death gate, aka something like Wukong, that people might put down because Revenant is simply better at it. But to me that's less egregious because tankiness is easily fixed with mods. AoE damage potential... less so.  

To be clear I'm also not saying that a frame having an elemental identity is a bad thing. In fact It's a good way to give them an identity that is unique. But 3 of those frames have elements that are considered good by the meta (slash and viral), and one has an element that at the time of release became very important. (radiation). 

Now of these 4 frames. Kullervo is aquired through Duviri which not everyone enjoys so is not as popular. Qorvex needed standing but was fairly simple to get. Dante had a unique farm spot. Dagath required both a Dojo room AND doing the Abyssal Zone. Which made her harder to get. So of these 4. Qorvex and Dante are the most accessible. Of Qorvex and Dante. Dante is "just better" at everything Qorvex does. So people use Dante. For reasons that have already been mentioned by others and what I was sure was the main reason. Speed, Efficiency more useful. 

Unfortunately I suspect the nuance you are talking about is the exact reason there is no good answer to the problem. You can't change it without disrespecting people's time or taking away people fun. And you can't make harder content that requires less aoe spam and more precision because people wont play it. 

I like what they are doing with "endgame" content at the end of the day. But whenever I'm in a netracell and find myself standing still watching two dante's nuke everything. I do sometimes wonder if its sustainable. Someone has already solo'd Elite Archemedia with Dante. People will solo it with other frames too that's for sure. It just seems like a losing fight. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

6 minutes ago, NineChameleon said:

Hah, you writing so much isn't a bad thing! I like how thought out your responses are. 

I am prone to worrying overmuch. (Anxiety sufferer). I suppose I look at the more recent warframes (Recent here meaning the last 3 or 4) So lets say, Dante, Qorvex, Dagath and Kullervo. And I see 4 frames that all have a 4 that is a room clear. 4 frames that all have a status leaning, and 3 of 4 frames that all have overguard or a death gate. 

So 

Dante - Tragedy, Slash and Overguard

Qorvex - Pillar/Crucible Blast, Radiation and Diometric Guard

Dagath - Cavalry/Doom, Viral and Grave Spirit

Kullervo - Collective Curse, Slash and Overguard

Now, again, I'm not saying any of these frames are bad. But when I look at it like this I see a definite similarity. As I said in my original post, there is certainly an upside. More universal viability and therefore more choice. But when everything is so similar the community, at least from w hat i've seen across forums and reddit, tends towards "if it doesn't do it better than what we already have what's the point". Which is why Dagath died off so fast (ha ha) even though she still has a playerbase and why Qorvex started to vanish after Dante came out. 

I'm not saying they dont have playerbases at all. Just that the similarity between frames causes others to become unused and eventually left behind by DE as a result. 

Again as you say, there are Niches. I was avoiding talking about Revenants Tankiness because I know people use him for that reason. I was looking at his more gimmick mechanic compared to a similar frame with a similar gimmick. Even if you want to look at his tankiness, I'm sure we can look at another frame with a similar death gate, aka something like Wukong, that people might put down because Revenant is simply better at it. But to me that's less egregious because tankiness is easily fixed with mods. AoE damage potential... less so.  

To be clear I'm also not saying that a frame having an elemental identity is a bad thing. In fact It's a good way to give them an identity that is unique. But 3 of those frames have elements that are considered good by the meta (slash and viral), and one has an element that at the time of release became very important. (radiation). 

Now of these 4 frames. Kullervo is aquired through Duviri which not everyone enjoys so is not as popular. Qorvex needed standing but was fairly simple to get. Dante had a unique farm spot. Dagath required both a Dojo room AND doing the Abyssal Zone. Which made her harder to get. So of these 4. Qorvex and Dante are the most accessible. Of Qorvex and Dante. Dante is "just better" at everything Qorvex does. So people use Dante. For reasons that have already been mentioned by others and what I was sure was the main reason. Speed, Efficiency more useful. 

Unfortunately I suspect the nuance you are talking about is the exact reason there is no good answer to the problem. You can't change it without disrespecting people's time or taking away people fun. And you can't make harder content that requires less aoe spam and more precision because people wont play it. 

I like what they are doing with "endgame" content at the end of the day. But whenever I'm in a netracell and find myself standing still watching two dante's nuke everything. I do sometimes wonder if its sustainable. Someone has already solo'd Elite Archemedia with Dante. People will solo it with other frames too that's for sure. It just seems like a losing fight. 

 

Thank you, I appreciate that. I also appreciate your effort and willingness to share your ideas at length as well. Don't mind what certain others replies claim, your original post even had a section that was framed for those who wanted a shorter version, but your framed and supported the rest of your thought processes well too regardless. 

To your points, I empathise with that. Its not something I personally have to worry about so much, at least not with Warframe, but its an issue close to my heart generally. Plus you know, the times and world we live in, lots to be anxious and worry about unfortunately. 

Thank you for your example with Warframes. I would generally agree with the point you are making with them. Like, by next years usage stats, Dante will probably have the most usage between them all, and I think say Qorvex might have the lowest, but I think Kullervo might carve out a niche for himself, and even with what I said, I was actually really happy that a Qorvex joined one of my Netracell missions earlier this night. Just as someone who tends to use less popular Warframes myself. Warframes will tend to be a bit tricky overall though when talking about comparisons, just because there are so many, the nature of Primes, cosmetics, Augments, and missions considered relevant and important. Like I personally really like Disruption, which also has a bit of a different meta than say survival, and so the recent Disruption changes are great to me. Some of the best weapons to use to kill the Demo are single target weapons, and some weapons that elsewhere are less popular (like say Quellor or Convectrix. I imagine that when Protea Prime arrives, Lua Apollo will be more populated than ever before. Its also a good place for some unusual Warframe picks as well, like I think Citrine is a pretty good Disruption Warframe. So is Khora, Nova, Mag, etc. Dagath potentially, I haven't used her much for that mode. Kullervo is. 

So its like all these variables add complications with our assessments, even if we can still conclude similar, like more people will still probably do Exterminate and Captures for fast Relics, than say Disruption where you can earn Relics as fast as you crack them, for Axi. 

I think in regards to tankiness and mods, sure, but also often for people convenience is a factor. In Warframe, given the ample tools we have access to, a lot of Warframes can achieve similar with adjustments and even play style... Like I personally like, enjoy and use Nyx more than Revenant. I also don't use her Augment (and I in fact subsumed off her 4, and when I play her in Steel Path, I stay alive, most via Rolling Guard and Chaos and focus firing down Eximus with weapons, but also basic parkour skills and movement, since in my opinion, knowing how to move through the game well is the best and most basic type of surviving the enemies. Especially when you become familiar with enemy AI and patterning. So its a survival tool every Warframe has innate access to, without powers and mods, but that being said... That requires being more alert, paying closer attention, using ideas like line of sight and soft cover and strafing fire and... I also might be hesitant to take Nyx into Deep Archimedea solo, because as good as I think my parkour is, some of the modifiers and challenges... This essentially means, the game does incentivise people to pick Warframes, like Revenant, Citrine, Nezha, Wukong, Dante, Styanax, Rhino, Protea etc and Warframes who are tougher, tankier, and take more to go down. Who also get that through more convenient or simpler ways. Its why I think that Limbo is in a tougher place for example, because Eximus and so many over guarded enemies, plus modifiers work against him. Same with Nyx, and modes having a lot of modifiers that might wreck their energy economy even if you use the augment (I think, like I said, I don't actually use the augment so my knowledge there is less than). 

Like I do find it a bit interesting how often Saryn is mentioned as being one of, if not the strongest "Warframe" but she often never leads the usage charts year to year, because whilst Warframe does put an emphasis on killing large groups of enemies... There is often other stuff going on, where most people usually want other tools. Like there is an ESO meta, but thats a bit general from other places too. Like aside from peoples preferences, in this sense, I feel like a lot of the design choices in modes like Netracells, and Deep Archimedea incentivise diversity. Lavos is a Warframe that scoffs at any energy limitations and debuffs for example (and I personally find them as tanky as Inaros if not more), granted, I don't necessarily think they are super popular, but I see them here and there (well not counting my ow usage). 

Like i get what you are saying about the elements, but like... I feel like that example is in a vacuum. Like there are many meta weapons that have innate elements for example, but the innate element in a vacuum isn't meta, but its not necessarily that important in the larger picture and context. 

Then I do agree that Dante is more meta than Qorvex, but then it sort of goes back to the meta, peoples perceptions, and how we split people into groups, the aspect of overlap, and the people that don't care about the meta. I remember coming across a person who wanted the Zenith to be accessible earlier. That argument aside, its because they claimed they wanted to do Profit Taker, and that Zenith was required for Profit Taker, and so they couldn't do Profit Taker yet... They wanted to, but weapon was locked/inaccessible. Their reasoning was that Zenith was the meta for Profit Taker, I explained to them, Profit Taker was completable without the Zenith, but they.. rejected my claim... and cited some older speed run meta guides. I also explained to them how Kuva Ogris was often used in several of the fasted Profit Taker speed runs, as a similar tool for dealing with Pylons, and IIRC the current fastest times use that weapon, but they also rejected that too... Then I just took them into a profit Taker run with the Arca Plasma and we were done in less than 5 minutes, but yeah... Perceptions versus reality. Again though nuanced, because its not like Zenith isn't consindered a good tool for PT just... 

Also yeah play style preferences and clashes. Like, its kind of a bit easy for me to say that I personally play for fun, because I have everything, and ample amounts of resources. I would maintain I was always that way, even when I started, so i often clash a little bit with people who play the games to try and get rewards faster, see public squads in Eidolons that can get tense and argue. I even myself will get a bit frustrated if people draw aggro away from the red circle in Netracells, and then the mission takes like 30 minutes... So I am not immune to being always chill... (though in that case its less about the rewards and more about pacing and time). 

Dante is still new. I imagine they will be quite popular going ahead, but I think their will be a dip. I suspect when Protea Prime and Jade are out, the chances of seeing two Dante's will be less common. Soloing Archimedea with Dante isn't too grand, its the sort of thing that will be pretty common and regular with people. Per peoples own discretion and willingness. 

Sorry this post was a bit long, am a bit too sleepy to be more concise. Appreciate your response and views all the same. I actually think we are quite similar as far as appreciating and enjoying some of the less popular and meta weapons and Warframes, from the sounds of us, you are just a bit more concerned and worried about how DE is moving a head, and I am less worried all in all. Not that I don't find your concerns valid. Maybe in 2 years time i might feel different, we might have Bramma incarnons and Jade might be twice as powerful as Dante and Saryn combined or something hehe Then I'll have to second guess my stance. I'm generally optimistic right now though. 

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

That's one of the reasons why I love the enemy Necramechs. You can still raw shoot them for damage but you'll be at the mercy of Damage Attenuation, BUT if you get behind them and shoot them in the weakspot then you do the chonk damage. Funnily enough the Nox units were supposed to fill a similar mechanical/gameplay niche but you hardly notice it cause you can still brute force them fairly easily.

Since the announcement of the new DLC, I'm reminded some of the gameplay aspects of Remnant. Heavies/Elites are genuinely scary. I don't fear them in WF. When Lotus says one is coming it's like, meh. When you hear that audio que for a heavy/elite in Remnant, you wake up and your head is on a swivel, looking for it. Necramechs actually been doing that for me a tad bit. Not as scary due to their damage output to be at a level to threaten me immediately nor the tenacity to chase me down, but I do take him more seriously than a Heavy Gunner. There's more small things WF could learn from Remnant. Part of me also wishes for some self reflection on enemy classes/organization. But that's totally a pipe dream. 

Yeah, units with weakpoints and massive damage attenuation would a great combo to make them relevant and durable enough. Give them some abilities in addition to that which makes us want to focus on them since they make life misserable otherwise. It would have even been a good thing to do to a while new faction, like say the culverins, make them really durable if you dont pop their weakpoints. Which is something they should have considered before release really, since currently they are so very weak with both lacking damage and survival.

Yup atleast the Necramechs pose a threat if unchecked. They actually seem quite scary in elite deep due to their high damage output and quite durable nature at that point, more so if they spawn as an eximus.

The most sad part about unique/heavy enemies currently is that even Acolytes that were supposed to be like "mini bosses" in SP are push overs. I havent really given their weak nature a thought earlier since we just have access to so many years of power in our weapons. But playing Dante and just stacking some bleed on one and watching them die quickly to that made me really realize how weak they really are.

22 hours ago, NineChameleon said:

hmm, You're not the first person whose said that. About using fewer elements. 

since I had condition overload I thought another might be beneficial just for raw damage. And exploiting the radiation weakness a little. 

Yeah CO was why I stacked early on. But things just die so quickly to the arcane that CO is more there to help me take down heavy units quicker, since on them it reaches high stacks thanks to forced procs and so on in the stances along with sporadic IPS procs from the weapon itself.

[(PSN)rexis12]

56 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The most sad part about unique/heavy enemies currently is that even Acolytes that were supposed to be like "mini bosses" in SP are push overs. I havent really given their weak nature a thought earlier since we just have access to so many years of power in our weapons.

The funny thing is, the reason we see them as so weak is that they're Overturned, resulting in us having to quickly overkill them to the point we THINK that they're pushovers. 

Since they're abilities are so goddamn powerful with like zero counter play for most of them, we just have to One Shot Kill them otherwise the same happens to us. Making it a game of tag.

Like I'm surprised that Malice's Mag Bubble can be rolled out of, when Misery's Acolyte Shadows are Uninterruptable, Violence Silence can't be cut short except with another Silence (Or Nekros Nullifiers, fun fact), Malice's uncancellable Turbulence and his Rag Doll stun lock (That goes through Invincible abilities by the way, learned that from using Wukong's Defy) , Tempest's 'Screw You who cares if I'M rooted I'll still use my abilities!' Tidal Surge, and Angst'... Well she's there.

Since there's no real interaction to really be Had with them, you just have to DPS and kill them down before they can really do anything or else they'll just have free roam.