I'm starting to think Helminth is a failed mechanic

[supernils]

So instead of fixing plenty of useless Warframe abilities you let people slap Nourish and Roar on everything and call it a day? Is that good game design?

If meta was bad before Helminth, Helminth is only making it worse. But hey, it adds an additional layer of grind, so that's good money I guess.

[Voltage]

It's less about that and more that Helminth usage easily outperforms the innate characteristics of certain Warframe kits because you can perform any role you want.

[supernils]

I mean I like the idea and especially the execution, but it would only have worked if all abilities were sort of on the same level.

I'd really like to see statistics of abilities replaced respectively replaced with. Actually if DE would at least look at that statistic they'd know what needs to be tweaked.

[GovernmentSecrets.gov]

I think Helminth is working fine. Sure some people might reuse the same stuff over and over, but Helminth does provide opportunities for creative new builds. 

[MaxTunnerX]

1 hour ago, supernils said:

I mean I like the idea and especially the execution, but it would only have worked if all abilities were sort of on the same level.

I'd really like to see statistics of abilities replaced respectively replaced with. Actually if DE would at least look at that statistic they'd know what needs to be tweaked.

And you know the devs arent doing that because ...?

As for helminth, I for one would like it to work for all abilities. There doesnt seem much logic in what abilities can be chosen anyway. The only rule there is, is "you cannot use the ultimates", but thats it. And I very much love the idea of a "kit frame", a warframe that you customize with abilities that you like, all of them custom, not just one. And the way the game is going, I feel like its going to happen eventually. Probably nerfed a lot, but still worth it.

Edited July 4 by MaxTunnerX

[Rathalio]

1 hour ago, supernils said:

So instead of fixing plenty of useless Warframe abilities you let people slap Nourish and Roar on everything and call it a day? Is that good game design?

Maybe you didn't know, maybe you forgot. But the Helminth system was primarily introduced to help us deal with warframes that needed some buffs and tweaks. Because DE devs don't and can't have to time rework every single warframe in the game and at the same time it was a good occasion to allow us to do more fun experimentations. Which is often good enough to have as an option for new builds and new meta synergies with older warframes. It was never intended to be a perfect system to begin with. Also DE is trying has much as possible without frustrating too many players to maintain this system decently balanced because by design it is very exploitable.

PS : If a generic damage buff is what you always miss and want to add on warframes, that's telling more about your lack of research on the question and creativity rather than anything else. Which is kinda also the point of the Helminth system in the first place. You make it bad and boring yourself by making this choice.

[Waeleto]

Helminth is fine, There is no issue in nourish/roar/gloom/eclipse or whatever ability you think is being "overused"

If these abilities fix a flaw in a warframe's kit that prevents people from making 100 posts daily on the forums demanding a rework for said frame then it's the lesser of two evil, There many other things we can worry about other than the helminth or it's abilities.

As for the fact that overusing abilities is annoying you then idk what to say tbh, If you pay attention to what other people build or use you probably have too much free time and if you're annoyed that you personally are using these abilities too much you can always try something else.

1 hour ago, supernils said:

So instead of fixing plenty of useless Warframe abilities you let people slap Nourish and Roar on everything and call it a day?

yes because they can't rework 10 warframes per year while providing a ton of new content to keep the game alive and believe it or not you're in the minority that thinks reworking warframes is better than helminth

[S074]

1 hour ago, supernils said:

you let people slap Nourish and Roar on everything and call it a day?

I feel like this is a very restrictive way of using the Helminth system.

I can't deny Nourish is a very enticing skill, I run it on several warframe ( Mag, Valkyr, Ivara, Atlas, Chroma, Oberon and Saryn) but experimenting is what makes the Helminth system fun.

Not all warframe NEED the extra energy nourish provides, and extra damage can be obtain in many other different ways (Xata or Wrathful Advance)

Sometimes you can pick a skill to improve how you use the frame or fix one glaring weakness it may have.

Sometimes is just fun. While minmaxing is important sometimes just fun is better.

I have fun with Sentient Wrath on Ember and Frost, that damage increase inflicted on enemies is sweet and it boosts their AOE skill damage.

I love shooting gallery +augment on Banshee, it increases her survivability by a long shot by blinding enemies left and right.

Chyrinka Pillar on max range Equinox is fun, holding two chokepoints easily by radiated enemies. Yes nobody plays CC anymore, but it still reduces pressure on the team in a significant way.

 

What I would like to see on Helminth are more unique skills to unlock. Things like Eximus skills, old skills like super jump making a comeback (I can see a super jump skill working like a second bullet jump. It would be an amazing utility skill, especially if the current test with ascension and verticality will be successful and used more)

[Zakkhar]

2 hours ago, supernils said:

let people slap Nourish and Roar on everything and call it a day

Have you by any chance done that? How is it working for you?

[trst]

You're assuming the only alternative is reworking "bad" abilities. Yet we've still had changes to frames since Helminth was added meaning your concern is entirely unfounded.

As for the issue of some players slapping the same handful of abilities onto every frame that's just an inevitable consequence of the system. Just as there'll always be a meta there will always be some ability that's objectively stronger than something else. No amount of buffing and reworks to "bad" abilities would fix this.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

2 hours ago, supernils said:

So instead of fixing plenty of useless Warframe abilities you let people slap Nourish and Roar on everything and call it a day? Is that good game design?

If meta was bad before Helminth, Helminth is only making it worse. But hey, it adds an additional layer of grind, so that's good money I guess.

that was one of the main things that worried me when this system was launched, and was only proving correct over time, as most players just used it as a band-aid to swap out bad abilities for straight up meta ones, and I was worried that it would make reworks less frequent as a result, as DE could fall back on "well, you can just helminth over it" as an excuse. thankfully reworks are still a thing, and Helminth does allow players to experiment with some fun and unique builds (my personal favourite being Wrathful Advance Atlas!), but I can't say I agree at all with those who will use "just subsume over X" as a defense for a bad kit.

[Rexis12]

Thing is, now that DE is actively working to buff and rework Frames, the Helmith thing isn't as big of an issue. 

Yeah people are going to still subsume Roar and Nourish, who guessed that a game that involves killing the most popular choice is a way to kill faster. 

But the old mantra of 'If none of the abilities are bad, then why have Helmith?' Isn't as prominent. 

Especially now that Armor has been reworked, making It so that players don't have to subsume an Armor strip (Though it'll still help lol), the energy economy is starting to get way way better, and damage being much more neutral allows for weapons and builds to no longer be so reliant on buffs. 

They still need to fix some abilities, but it's much better than what it was before where they didn't buff anything at all and Steve was mad that people picked Roar and Eclipse over anything else. 

[Stormandreas]

It was failed from the beginning.

I had initially said that all Helminth was, was an excuse for DE to not have to re-work warframes more often. That's exactly what happened. They slowed down on reworks and hoped Helminth would fix it. It did not.

Now, we have WFs who can't survive without Helminth, and DE sees this as a win (somehow).
If you take Helminth away, those frames have a VERY hard time, and desperately show that they need a rework or need some tweaks done. However, because DE wont remove Helminth, much of this wont come to light.

[-AncientWarrior-]

It works fine for me, on every frame I have put on at least 5 different helminth abilities usually 6 so I have a really good cover of abilities that assist the frame .. I always make 6 configs on all frames as the helminth'd abilities do different things so having multiple configs makes the frame much more useful and to be honest Roar is not well used in any of my configs, nourish definately as it is my goto energy bonus but abilities like condemn, silence, pillage, blood alter etc work well on alot of frames.. 

[PrideB4TheFall]

I don't use roar on any of my frames. I use nourish on 1 frame only. Fireblast appears more frequently on my frames.

I get what you're saying. I don't use many of the abilities open to me. But to say only 2 abilities are worthwhile is disingenuous.

[Lord_Drod]

I'll take molt over either one.  Roar doesn't synergize well with a lot of frames or there are better things since we have pocket Roar already.  Nourish is pretty overrated and often redundant.  DE does look at stats and does tweak those abilities. 

They also are very aware of the system when they release new frames and since most new frames don't have a dead ability, there is always a new good ability coming in ever so often.

Edited July 5 by Lord_Drod

[Rexis12]

1 hour ago, Stormandreas said:

It was failed from the beginning.

I had initially said that all Helminth was, was an excuse for DE to not have to re-work warframes more often. That's exactly what happened. They slowed down on reworks and hoped Helminth would fix it. It did not.

Now, we have WFs who can't survive without Helminth, and DE sees this as a win (somehow).
If you take Helminth away, those frames have a VERY hard time, and desperately show that they need a rework or need some tweaks done. However, because DE wont remove Helminth, much of this wont come to light.

I mean now that we don't have a team that barely cares about the core gameplay and is obsessed with chasing the new big new mechanic, that they'll forget two minutes later lmao, we might see even more reworks. 

A lot of people like to say that the new shield gate was made brain dead, when it was just them allowing a wider group to actually survive.

 

[trst]

1 hour ago, Stormandreas said:

It was failed from the beginning.

I had initially said that all Helminth was, was an excuse for DE to not have to re-work warframes more often. That's exactly what happened. They slowed down on reworks and hoped Helminth would fix it. It did not.

Now, we have WFs who can't survive without Helminth, and DE sees this as a win (somehow).
If you take Helminth away, those frames have a VERY hard time, and desperately show that they need a rework or need some tweaks done. However, because DE wont remove Helminth, much of this wont come to light.

Since Helminth was added we've seen Zephyr, Grendel, Hydroid, and Inaros getting full reworks while other frames have continued to see patches and augments on top of all the augment buffs/reworks. This whole belief that Helminth is an excuse for DE to not rework frames is nothing but a conspiracy theory.

Also there's no such thing as a frame that can't survive without Helminth. Only your own inability to make a frame survivable. Even in the realm of level cap nonsense every frame can be built to abuse shield gating without Helminth and there's even the universal cheese of Vazarin's Protective Sling.

If Helminth has done anything negative it's just that it made players who rely on crutches rely on them even more. It's nobody's fault but the players for refusing to learn how to play without Roar/Nourish/Gloom/etc.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

6 hours ago, supernils said:

So instead of fixing plenty of useless Warframe abilities you let people slap Nourish and Roar on everything and call it a day? Is that good game design?

If meta was bad before Helminth, Helminth is only making it worse. But hey, it adds an additional layer of grind, so that's good money I guess.

Pretending there's only two good helminth abilities feels disingenuous.

 

[Quest]

Sure it doesn't bother me if people put nourish on literally everything

[Vaml77]

It's something that only serves to raise the level of the gems....buffs? lol

[RichardKam]

7小时前 , supernils 说:

Nourish

Do you put PSF on every frame as well?

[RichardKam]

3小时前 , Stormandreas 说:

Now, we have WFs who can't survive without Helminth,

Which warframe, and in what context?

I seriously want to know because with powercreep these days I do not think helminth was required. QOL maybe.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

They should just pick other abilities for certain helminth versions.. mach rush instead of thermal sunder? Sign me up! 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Additional layer of grind? Most people had it in a few days to a week because we did bounties....and bought it with standing...