Is the future of warframe more theme park updates like 1999?

[Kaiga]

So 1999 is going to be another update to leave the star chart from, and go ride something that has little to no interaction with where 80% of the game is played.

Another tab like duviri. 

Another tab like railjack. 

So now this is tab #3 on our nav menu, that takes you away from the sol system. 

Why so little love for the core warframe experience? Why try to totally reinvent the warframe experience every update (and then abandon it, like railjack/duviri), instead of just, I dunno, tell more stories with all the interesting and memorable characters we already have in the sol system?

Edited July 23 by Kaiga

[Rexis12]

2 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Why so little love for the core warframe experience? Why try to totally reinvent the warframe experience every update (and then abandon it, like railjack/duviri), instead of just, I dunno, tell more stories with all the interesting and memorable characters we already have in the sol system?

Normally I'd agree with you. 

But 1999 is already a substantial upgrade to Railjack and Diviri, by the simple virtue that it's main gameplay is actually Warframe based. Instead of Faster than Light but 3D and bad, or Ellen Ring with random buffs and also bad.

 

 

[trst]

Who says it's a departure? We don't know if the new content wont utilize our mods since they didn't show off or mention any alternatives like Decrees. While what we've seen is LITERALLY reskinned "Star Chart content". Like this is the most bland of bland ""core"" WF content we've seen in a long time.

Edited July 23 by trst

[Helverin]

Everything you do in WF is a content island  - you get your stuff and go. There is no big interconnection, not even on the star chart, every node is it's own little island and has little to do with what's up next. The only meaningful thing are rewards like relics.

And sure, as for characters we could drop the hammer on Vay Hek a million of times but as the story developed this will get you nowhere. The big Sol-Arc came to a conclusion with Ballas while foreshadowing Wally as the next Bigshot (who also has been in the game for years, so no ass pull from DE). 

Btw. Jade Shadows was an update that did exactly what you wanted, expanded on existing characters, added stuff to normal star chart. As was Lua's Bounty and this Citrine stuff. 

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Rexis12:

Instead of Faster than Light but 3D and bad, or Ellen Ring with random buffs and also bad.

Could you stop comparing Duviri to Elden Ring? Only thing in common are swords and an open world and it's not like Elden Ring invented that.

[PublikDomain]

Theme park updates aren't new though.

• Archwing was a totally separate thing when it was added in 2014.
• The big cinematic story quests like TSD all the way back in 2015 and TWW in 2016 were - at the time - a big departure from "core" Warframe and introduced and expanded the Operator - which was a very not-"core" piece of the game.
• The open worlds have always been their own little separate things, like PoE in 2017 and Fortuna in 2018.
• Railjack in 2019 was like how Archwing was, all segregated in its own little separate place.
• Then we got another open world theme park out of Deimos in 2020.
• TNW featured more "not Warframe" content like Vego, Kahl, Teshin, and the Drifter in 2021.
• Veilbreaker in 2022 added Kahl missions which remain a segregated part of the game.
• Duviri in 2023 is largely its own separate area.

And 1999 at the end of this year will, as far as we know, be another theme-park like all of the above. At this point I kinda gotta ask, what do you expect? Just about every year DE tries some big new thing and goes off in some new direction. There's plenty of "core" Warframe added in between, but the big punctual additions have always been like this. It's the past, present, and future of the game. And, just like with Archwing and cinematic quests and open world zones and the Operator, after a while this stuff does eventually get blended in and become just as "core" Warframe as the rest. It'd be nice if there wasn't always that abandonment phase in between but overall the theme-parks have been here since the beginning.

[Xzorn]

Ugh... They switched gears back in 2017.

They've been chasing that Plains of Eidolon high ever since. Regardless what impact it has on the game.

I made a Topic back in 2019 before taking a long break that U8 to U10 were pretty much peak play experience for this game.

[Sojufueled]

We just had a big star chart update with Jade Shadows. Before that was Whispers in the Walls. I feel like your argument overlooks the last 2 years of Warframe.

[ReddyDisco]

Romance in warframe, infested boy band, bikes, a new tileset with new enemies. This isn't some standalone update, it's continuing the story of entrati and finding out wtf he was upto in 1999. This is gonna be a very interesting series of updates, lighten up a little.  

[ominumi]

Horizontal progression can only go so far until all items are homogenize. This is really just basic warframe with a new paint job. If you can't see railjack as warframe gameplay with a ship I don't know how you can play this game for that long.

[chaotea]

Spoiler alert: This has always been Warframes MO. Index, Lunaro, arcwing, open worlds. Everything has been a departure from the 'standard' warframe experience.

[DrivaMain]

On the bright side, Warframe's "Archipelago-style" content is designed so that you can safely ignore content without repercussions, with a few exceptions. One of the exceptions in question are quest prerequisites which may require you to dip into the content island you find unenjoyable. Fortunately, it doesn't require you to delve too deep into them.

 

 

[0_The_F00l]

We have had islands for far longer , probably since they released PoE,

Though railjack and duviri were indeed a real departure (case in point they have their own maps and "moddable" gear)

I have an opinion that DE is just not too comfortable (confident? capable?) to launch a standalone game and so just adds things to warframe from failed new game ideas.

Or atleast they were until soulframe came out - and that is its own bag of worms.

[C11H22O1]

Sometimes you guys exaggerate to try to make a point gotta be honest.

The last update was literally another mission in the regular star chart, before that we had whispers with a new tileset and missions and before that we got the Dagath mission on the star chart.

Doing some updates outside of regular star chart from time to time isn't a bad thing, keeps things fresh and besides the duviri drifter gameplay I would say every other addition plays very much like Warframe 

[Xzorn]

My biggest issue with their "Sandbox" method since Plains is that outside items you take home. It doesn't really connect.

I recall Steve had these ideas for Railjack where you could call player reinforcements into plains. Something I doubt ever happened. Zaramin and Duviri 'almost' mix together to get an idea of what I mean. You can transition between the different modes and they're both Void theme'd. The game lacks immersive transitioning and blending of these various concepts. Wouldn't it be kinda cool to fly to different planets using your Raijack > Orbiter. Kinda pointless but cool?

Oh and holy crap calm down on the mission spam. No better way to burn players out.

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

It's classic warframe gameplay on a new map against a new faction with new guns and swords, so I'm feeling pretty good about 1999. It's giving me more of what I like.

[_Anise_]

7 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Why so little love for the core warframe experience? Why try to totally reinvent the warframe experience every update

because if they added a new planet full of defense, capture missions etc I am certain there would be 10 more someones here complaining about it being the new expansion being the "same" and boring.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

8 hours ago, Helverin said:

Could you stop comparing Duviri to Elden Ring? Only thing in common are swords and an open world and it's not like Elden Ring invented that.

Can't really blame players for this when DE knows exactly what they're doing choosing "Soulframe" as the name for their next game.

[Loza03]

Out of curiosity, if Tau was introduced and with its own star chart, but you accessed it by a tab on the star chart (y'know, to switch between star charts), would that qualify as a 'theme park update'?

The content island argument has always rung a little hollow to me. Progress in Duviri grants upgrades to your core abilities once you get to intrinsic rank nine, grants you new arcanes, new weapons, and upgrades to older ones. Progress in the Open Worlds, again, new weapons, new arcanes, new amps for Fortuna and the Plains.

Gameplay that deviates from the core Warframe gameplay of frames and so forth is always in the minority, and rarely if ever does an update with such sorts of gameplay not come with plenty to do with your Warframes. I remember when the focus of the argument was Operators, which usually at most had half a boss fight associated with them, or a quest tops with TWW.

And let's not forget that every now and then rumbles of discontent arise when DE loops these areas and seperate progressions systems back in, once they're no longer the new thing that DE would really quite like you be playing, when people who don't like that content complain that they are 'forced' to engage with it. Man, I remember the days of the Sacrifice... people yelling that they had to use their Operator, that they were 'forced' to grind out their Operator.

[Helverin]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Xylena_Lazarow:

Can't really blame players for this when DE knows exactly what they're doing choosing "Soulframe" as the name for their next game.

Whelp, perhaps the players should play Elden Ring to feel the difference. And while at it, why not linking it back to Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Because dodge rolls, lock on, swords&shields, some nature fantasy stuff, impressing bosses... 

It's like comparing Dark Souls to Nioh, both hard in their ways though very different to play.

And this is going nowhere, so I rather encourage everyone to take games as they are and not just scratching the surface in search of some slight similarities. But sure, shame on DE for touching the open world (a concept probably older than Fallout 1&2) and slapping on some fantasy stuff.

[ominumi]

Just now, Loza03 said:

Out of curiosity, if Tau was introduced and with its own star chart, but you accessed it by a tab on the star chart (y'know, to switch between star charts), would that qualify as a 'theme park update'?

The content island argument has always rung a little hollow to me. Progress in Duviri grants upgrades to your core abilities once you get to intrinsic rank nine, grants you new arcanes, new weapons, and upgrades to older ones. Progress in the Open Worlds, again, new weapons, new arcanes, new amps for Fortuna and the Plains.

Gameplay that deviates from the core Warframe gameplay of frames and so forth is always in the minority, and rarely if ever does an update with such sorts of gameplay not come with plenty to do with your Warframes. I remember when the focus of the argument was Operators, which usually at most had half a boss fight associated with them, or a quest tops with TWW.

And let's not forget that every now and then rumbles of discontent arise when DE loops these areas and seperate progressions systems back in, once they're no longer the new thing that DE would really quite like you be playing, when people who don't like that content complain that they are 'forced' to engage with it. Man, I remember the days of the Sacrifice... people yelling that they had to use their Operator, that they were 'forced' to grind out their Operator.

Railjack is like that. We still can use all of our old stuff plus the new stuff introduced. It just feels like people don't want to grind for loot and Standing only to shelve it because the old stuff is way better.

[OniDax]

People always complain about content islands where we can't use our Warframes and our builds (I don't disagree), and then say "Why can't DE focus on and improve the core gameplay experience". However, they only focus on DE adding stuff or changing stats as if that alone is improvement. Warframe needs an improvement of its core gameplay. That's not mods or builds. That's gunplay, melee gameplay, and movement. The reason a lot of players are happy to get more content islands, and more specifically, more side content that's a departure from the core gameplay, is because they want something other than the very bland core gameplay experience.

Players like the builds, the like the Warframes, they like weapons if they delete enemies fast. What they don't care about is the core experience of running and shooting enemies unless they can do it fast. For years, the way to play Warframe has been to rush through the gameplay as fast as possible to get the rewards.

Despite how DE designed the game, they don't want that for their updates. So, they create alternate gameplay experiences or offer a limited unfolded experience.

However, the solution to their dilemma isn't to simply reduce the gameplay options. They need to improve the core gameplay mechanics. Make it feel better without mods and it'll feel better with mods. That means improving movement so that it feels less floaty, more grounded in natural human movement, but just as fast as current warframe gameplay. Characters need to walk (up right and crouched), run, sprint, and change direction like natural human movement (yes like CODMWII and Ghost of Tsushima excel at this, while games like Warframe and Destiny 2 lag behind). The base speed needs to remain the same and modded speed should be as fast as it currently is. Gunplay animations need to be improved to be more immersive. When aiming, the weapon should be held at a level just below where the eye would be and all movement animations with weapons shpuld convey that the Tenno is trained to use a gun. Camera angles need to be tweaked (mainly crouch walking while aiming) so that the view is not obscured by the character. Melee stances need to be reworked so that they flow smoothly.

These are actual non-exhaustive improvements to the core gameplay that would make content like WF1999 or even Veilbreaker feel better. And it would make the rest of the game feel better. If we're going to talk about DE focusing on the core gameplay, we need to start clarifying what that focus looks like, and that discussion needs to include actual improvements to the core gameplay mechanics.

[trst]

For people who complain about things not aligning with the "core warframe experience" would someone attempt to define that? Cause this is really just a silly argument at this point.

Even things like Railjack and Duviri have you spend over half of the mission with your the warframe, weapons, and mods you'd be using elsewhere with no real gameplay differences. Hek even Duviri's Decree system isn't that different from the random buffs seen in modes like Archon Hunts, Disruption, or Lohk Surges in Zariman. Meanwhile with open worlds there's no real difference between playing a mission in the same exact mix of random tiles and a single map with the same exact set of fixed locations.

Is needing to use a vehicle to move between objectives or using a character that's just a slightly modified frame really so different? This just seems like really arbitrary cherry picking.

[Rexis12]

Anytime a Game Mode adds a whole new mechanic that completely #*!%in Ditches all of your progress to start you from level one for the core loop of that mechanic, is a game mode that is not 'Core Warframe'. 

Arch Wing literally made it so that none of your Warframe, Weapon, Companion mods mattered and slapped on specifically only Arch Wing mods that, let me remind you further, could ONLY be gained through Arch Wing mode. 

Had a 500 Forma Excalibur? Lmao, enjoy the base 30/30 Odanata and Imperator. 

Railjack literally debuted with an entirely new Avionics system that completely separated itself from the established upgrade mechanic that was Endo before it. Hell it literally has a completely separate Elemental System. While also completely ditching all of the previous progress for your Warframe.

And Duviri? Considering how Duviri was teased to be Operator and Drifter focused entirely with the mechanic of the Drifter using Warframe weapons, before it presumably got completely changed because everytime they tried to add in a completely different game into Warframe is fumbles completely. Hell right now, the most people talk about Duviri is Circuit. 

Even trst talks about the Duviri buffs in context to only the Circuit. Because they're equating our WARFRAME getting the buff and not either our Drifter or the Operator.

[trst]

8 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

Anytime a Game Mode adds a whole new mechanic that completely #*!%in Ditches all of your progress to start you from level one for the core loop of that mechanic, is a game mode that is not 'Core Warframe'. 

Arch Wing literally made it so that none of your Warframe, Weapon, Companion mods mattered and slapped on specifically only Arch Wing mods that, let me remind you further, could ONLY be gained through Arch Wing mode. 

Had a 500 Forma Excalibur? Lmao, enjoy the base 30/30 Odanata and Imperator. 

Railjack literally debuted with an entirely new Avionics system that completely separated itself from the established upgrade mechanic that was Endo before it. Hell it literally has a completely separate Elemental System. While also completely ditching all of the previous progress for your Warframe.

And Duviri? Considering how Duviri was teased to be Operator and Drifter focused entirely with the mechanic of the Drifter using Warframe weapons, before it presumably got completely changed because everytime they tried to add in a completely different game into Warframe is fumbles completely. Hell right now, the most people talk about Duviri is Circuit. 

Even trst talks about the Duviri buffs in context to only the Circuit. Because they're equating our WARFRAME getting the buff and not either our Drifter or the Operator.

So literally the only things in the game that isn't "core" is Archwing, Kahl, and not even half of Duviri/Railjack.

Yeah I don't see how DE is ditching the "core gameplay" when over ten years we've only seen two modes that're entirely separate. And that's also discounting the fact that all of those provide gear, resources, upgrades, and progression that's used in the rest of the game.

Also not sure what you're talking about with Decrees. Decrees apply to your Drifter and Frame both in Duviri and Circuit, which is also how Lohk Surges and Disruption buffs work.

[Rexis12]

3 minutes ago, trst said:

Yeah I don't see how DE is ditching the "core gameplay" when over ten years we've only seen two modes that're entirely separate

That's because Duviri and Railjack were meant to be way bigger expansions with how the team talked about it. Until, presumably every house of card of mechanics that he wanted to implement for it crumbled. Like from I recall, Duviri and Zariman were apparently supposed to be focused around base building. We even see a small part of it when they wanted to add in a Gardening Simulator in Duviri that was presumably going to be a larger part of the original idea. It was then dropped to a simple loot refresh every few hours. 

So now we're back to actual Core Warframe. Which is shooting, looting and Parkour. 

It's obvious that they are planning to ditch Warframe's core. Because, how did it take 7 years after Parkour 2.0 for them to add in a dedicated Parkour Game Mode in Void Flood.

11 minutes ago, trst said:

Archwing, Kahl, and not even half of Duviri/Railjack.

The funniest thing, besides Kahl, that these three were the biggest pieces of updates to Warframe at the time. Like I cannot understate just how Railjack, especially the ship portion (aka Not Warframe section) was such a masive huge focus for them that thinking about how they wasted so much resources on a game mode that they couldn't even release in a functioning status on release before taking a long ass holiday still pisses me off. 

Arch Wing had them adding whole nodes, redesigning Uranus to have those Shark Wing segments, talking about Modular Arch Wings that they eventually had to scrap because it was so far removed from the core that no one wantsd to actually play it. And the few times players did play it, Itztal was Nerfed and Amesha was almost on the chopping block due to Railjack.

And Duviri was this whole huge expansion with New War that eventually is now remembered only for the Warframe content. Even the new Decrees are geared to make you spend less time in Duviri, because I don't know how else to take "Here's a degree that makes it so that you gather twice as many resources "Other than "You can now cut your time spent in the open world by half."