Archwing Movement Overhaul Feedback [Megathread]

[Brasten]

Space Sim and Hack'n'Slash dual controls overview. But before that, there is one other game that combines Fighter Sim and Shooter. Something very near and dear to Warframe's influences on the Grineer.

Spoiler

 

Robotech Battlecry . This game reprises, in-game play, the action of flying a Veritech transforming fighter. Swapping between Fighter, hybrid, and biped mecha.

Zone of the Enders 2 (ZoE2), Strike Suit Zero - Directors Cut (SSZ) and Robotech - Battlecry (Battlecry) are all points on the spectrum of this combined Fighter-Shooter.

SSZ and Battlecry controls are the focus here, because they execute the grander visions of both Flight Sim and a secondary more Shooter style mode. In my last post I talked about the control setup of modern-ish Flight Sims. Which are partly informed by Twin Stick Controllers (TSC), and adapted to Keyboard and Mouse (KB&M).

Fighter Mode Controls:

• Pitch & Yaw, are the Up/Down, Left/Right wiggle of a Fighter in 3D space. These translate very well into a 2D control Axis
  • TSC: Use the Right Analog Stick. Up/Down is Pitch up/down. Left/Right is Yaw Left/Right. Very intuitive and familiar, almost 1:1. Analogous to aiming in a shooter.
  • KB&M: Uses the Mouse more often then not. Pitch and Yaw are partly controlled by moving the cross-hair on-screen and having the ship follow along, again analogous to aiming in a shooter. Most flight sims over the past decade have got this down, as does  Archwing 6-axis (Aw6A), to a point.
• Throttle, or speed control. In early 90s Space/Flight Sims this was handled like actual flight simulators. You had two buttons to increase or decrease thrust. And that trust setting stayed locked once you set it. This didn't translate so well to TSCs and their lack of buttons.
  • TSC: Throttle got moved to the Left Analog, and speed became a multiplier of the how far Forward/Back the control stick was pressed. Ships had a default based forward thrust. Pushing the control stick forward increased speed (to the max), until it was released. Pulling back reduced speed to a near crawl or even full stop.
  • KB&M: This has been translated to W & S keys. You begin a default speed. Holding down W brings you up to max speed, while S slows you or stops you.
• Roll, which is rotation of the object around its center axis, is critical for six degrees of freedom. It allows players to control their relative vertical orientation.
  •  TSC: Usually binds these to shoulder buttons. This is avoid accidental input while controlling the throttle on the left stick. Although some games bind Roll to the Left Analog stick anyways.
  • KB&M: Is much cleaner in that way and just bind Roll to A & D
• Afterburner, or boost is an extra "more speed" option as the change to Analog Stick Throttle was sometimes had to be slow, even at full forward, in order for players to keep control in most situations.
  • TSC: This is often bound to Left Stick Button, requiring the player to "click" in the stick.
  • KB&M: Is typical bound to shift or space bar, or some other left hand modifier key accessible by the pinky finger or thumb.

To restate

• Mouse: Pitch & Yaw
• A & D: Roll
• W & S: Throttle
• Shift: Boost

You should begin to see the problems with Archwing 6-axis (Aw6A) at this point. Aw6A uses WASD for direction/heading. Flight Sims do not do this because it conflicts with heading control provided by Pitch & Yaw. You fly Foward, you don't fly Sideways. SSZ and Battlecry, in their Fighter Modes, don't let you fly sideways to the camera. Now both of these games distinguish themselves from other flight sims by having a secondary mode, Strike Mode or Battloid Mode, which control more like Shooters than Flight Sims. Although there are some differences(1) in how both games go about it. This control setup also can describe ZoE2's Hack'n'Slash game play. So I'll call it Mecha Mode, after the humanoid fighting robot appearances displayed in all three games.

Mecha Mode:

• Directional Movement, we depart from the "freedom" of 6-axis and go back to controlling movement on a horizontal plane with WASD. Using two buttons (Q & E) to retain a 3rd dimension of movement. This is the Archwing 1.0 way of doing things. This is basically how ZoE2 does it.
  • Mouse: Turning/Aiming
  • WASD: Horizontal movement.
  • Q & E: Down / Up
  • Shift: Boost
• Orientation, if you watched the linked videos in this post (or my last post) you understand how ZoE2 uses a Lock-On system to help maintain orientation to a target. However the relative Up orientation of the battlefield remains locked. There is set Up and a Down. There is no Roll in Mecha Mode. You lose that axis because you are now fighting from a static horizontal plane.
• Speed control, is directly handled by the WASD & QE. You move in the direction of the key you press, at the pre-set speed. Modified by a Boosting/Sprint button.

Now there is a discussion to be had about Orientation Locking in Mecha Mode. However I will point out that SSZ, Battlecry, and ZoE2 all Lock the orientation in this. It's less nostiable in Battlecry because it doesn't really let you fly upside down most of the time. In SSZ you lose the ability to Roll, and instead use target Lock-On (similar to ZoE2) to keep orientation. Part of mastering maneuvering in SSZ and Battlecry is understanding when and how to use each mode, Fighter or Mecha.  ZoE2 is just a Hack'n'Slash, you don't get a choice about your relative Up/Down.

Switching between Fighter Mode and Mecha Mode is an override of their controls. It is two distinct behaviors of play. Although there is the possibly for some overlap in their binds.

I will go over how to apply this to Warframe and its various existing constraints in my next post.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Brasten
Fixing a link for SSZ

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, Darwin1859 said:

Oh, and what about this ?

I don't want to know where my bullets are coming from...

I heard you get your ammunition straight from Uranus.

[StonedMakak]

1 hour ago, Darwin1859 said:

Oh, and what about this ?

I don't want to know where my bullets are coming from...

That's actually how we managed to win against the Sentients in the Old War. 

[Brasten]

Continuing from my last post and reminder of the great games of influence for this mode (or at least they should be). Zone of the Enders 2 (ZoE2), Strike Suit Zero - Directors Cut (SSZ) and Robotech - Battlecry (Battlecry) 

Applying Flight and Mecha mode control schema to Archwing:

This is where things get detailed as we work with the constraints placed on controls by Warframe.

1. We must consider Controllers. It is a fact this game plays on both Xbox 4 and Playstation 4, so we have to take those platforms into account. Which really means we need to keep the number of buttons used down to 14. Dual Shock 4 and Mouse & Keyboard can break out multi-assigned buttons for better more refined controls. 
2. Work around standing requirements for Warframe Powers, Archwing Weapon, and Archwing Melee weapon.
3. Decide if Mecha Mode should have an Orientation Lock, and if so what kind.

A reminder of basic controls for both modes

• Fighter Mode (currently done my holding sprint)
  • Mouse: Pitch & Yaw
  • A & D: Roll
  • W & S: Throttle
  • Shift: Boost
• Mecha (currently default handling)
  • Mouse: Look/Aim
  • WASD: Horizontal plane movement
  • Q & E: Up and down
  • Shift: Boost

Archwing Fighter Mode:

Archwing with the Mouse already has Pitch & Yaw down fairly well. It just needs to lose the momentum retention. Archwings should not "slide" when changing directions in Fighter Mode, or at least not very much. The prior very minor momentum retention in Archwing 1.0 seemed fine, and it something to keep an eye on going forward. What needs to go is the ability to fly in any direction during Fighter Mode. A and D keys are need for roll, and W and S need to become Throttle controls. This is fairly straight forward Flight Sim there so lets dive into Warframe specific issues.

1. Speed
   • In Fighter Mode, the Archwing should a default forward speed of Mecha mode (aka not sprinting).
     • You are always moving forward. Subject to speed modifications of W & S.
   • Holding down W should be as fast as sprinting is now. Functionally there is no "sprint" in Fighter Mode. The mods for increasing Sprint speed should now increase "Boost" speed in this mode.
   • Holding down S should bring the Archwing to a near stop, with some forward movement.
   • Speeding up or slowing down is not instant, but has a short (but noticeable) acceleration/deceleration period. Allow Keyboard players to "tap" W or S for momentary speed adjustments.
   • The former Boost mode, which required holding both Spring and Boost buttons, is now just one button that brings the Archwing up to "Boost" speeds.
     • Boosting replaces Sprinting in Fighter Mode.
2. Transition between Fighter Mode and Melee combat.
   • Archwing 1.0 did an amazing job of auto-locking targets near enough, and "teleporting" to hit with melee. This behavior should be persevered.
   • There needs to be a grace period where the Archwing has slow forward movement (as if the player was holding S), after all melee input commands are finished. This should allow players to avoid smashing into a wall when Flight Mode resumes at speed.
     • Alternatively using a Melee attack on an enemy should take the Arching out of Fighter Mode, and put it in Mecha Mode. This is the simpler answer to keep players from bouncing off the walls of narrow Corpus Trench Run tilesets.
3. Up and Down control
   • This is a bit of an overlap option with the Mecha Controls. Q & E can remain the Up/Down nudging controls in Fighter Mode. By doing so players can 'nudge' their position while doing trench running and avoid smashing into roofs or floor projections. This also offers a unique play/control opportunity where Archwings can "bank" tighter by diving up or down. Which also works well for the trench running sections where the level slopes up/down.
     • Creative players will also note that certain turns can be taken tighter at speed by Rolling so the turn is above above or below them.

Archwing Mecha Mode:

This mode comes down to Orientation Locking  and how it is handled. You have two different styles. The first is ZoE2 or Battlecry style. Where the camera is locked to a World/Map relative Up/Down. This means going into Mecha Mod would require the camera to be re-aligned with the correct axis. This will likely cause people nausea if done too quickly. The second, and likely better option, is the way SSZ does it. When SSZ goes into Strike mode the Roll is locked out and the player fights from a relative plane based on their existing orientation.

In either case, this would act exactly like the Archwing 1.0 movement mode. Only dropping the Boost mode, it being redundant speed that the player should be accessing through the Fighter Mode. We keep Sprint (modified by Hyperion Thrusters mod).

• Note about Sprint mods: Because we've now assigned that bonus to two different modes lets talk about the ramifications.
  • In Fighter Mode, the Archwing will be at its fastest (using Hyperion Thrusters) while Boosting. The Fighter mode equivalent to Sprint. However, its forward (holding W) top speed will be slower than the Mecha Mode Sprint
  • In Mecha Mode, Sprinting still uses Hyperion Thrusters and will be faster then top speed (hold W) in Fighter Mode.
• I personally don't see an issue with this, and it opens up various kinds of finer movement control. Slowest to fastest (gotta go fast)
  • Mecha Mode (WASD pressed) == Fighter Mode (No Throttle keys press ) --> Fighter Mode (W pressed) --> Mecha Mode (sprint, Hyperion Thrusters) --> Fighter Mode (boost, Hyperion Thrusters)

The modification to consider is a Target Lock function that automatically adjusts the Orientation and Archwing facing to stay focused on one target. Personally, I would say try Mecha mode in a SSZ style, where the horizontal fighting plane is just based on the orientation you had from Fighter Mode.

We should also include a "realign" button for players who want to get their Up/Down reset to the world/map's innate Up/Down. In either mode.

Possible Default Keybinds (Keyboard & Mouse)

Spoiler

 

• Pitch & Yaw || Look/Aim: Mouse
• Accelerate || Move Forward: W
• Decelerate || Move Back: S
• Roll Left || Move Left: A
• Roll Right || Move Right: D
• Toggle Fighter || Mecha Mode: Space
• Sprint/Boost: Shift
• Up: E
• Down: Q
• Realign: Z
• Quick Melee: R
• Fire Weapon: Mouse 1
• Aim (Zoom): Mouse 2
• Secondary Fire: Mouse 3 (assuming we get any secondary fire mode Archwing weapons)
• Switch Weapon: F
• Contextual Use: X
• Item Popup: V
• Power A: 1
• Power B: 2
• Power C: 3
• Power D: 4
• Power E: 5

 

That should more or less cover things. The harder parts are actually coding all of these systems to work together. We have functioning examples of all of this in Zone of the Enders, Strike Suit Zero, and Robotech Battlecry. And Archwing is mostly already there... once the controls get fully separated from Warframe and the extreme closeup camera gets pulled off the Archwing's shoulder.

====

Now none of this address the real problem of Archwing. That it is a barren rewardless mode. No amount of control scheme paint will fix that. And it was the problem before DE started messing with the controls.

Quite honestly, just doing some polish to Archwing 1.0 movement and shifting it into a solid Zone of Enders 2 style Hack'n'Slash would be perfectly fine. But we need more/better enemies to fight. More diversity in the action.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Brasten

[nelu_Y3K]

I have to be brutally honest. The new camera is very very bad, especially when using melee. It literally gave me motion sickness for the 1st time in my life.

I'm sad to say this, but archwing (my favorite thing in warframe) is currently unplayable for me.

 

[AandOE]

I love the two new modes, racing and hunting. :3 The whole keeping of momentum for a bit, and banking and stuff really makes Archwing super awesome now. Even better, I can rotate all the way around now, instead of being stopped at a certain point! Yay! I can keep track of my flying, zipping targets without having to reorient or anything. BOOP. (translation: RARGH, <3)

Totally forgot: the slow reorienting back to the old 'up' is very gracious of you, thank you! It's very nice to have during the Corpus missions, which look to be mostly designed around having a certain 'up'. On Grineer missions, it's not so bad, since the level is decentralized and has no inherent 'up'.

Edited July 11, 2016 by AandOE

[Genitive]

After doing a couple of archwing missions I can say that:

- I quite like the new movement system, although camera should be further from the character

- melee feels slow and clunky, often locking you in combos

- there is no real reliable way to reorient ourselves to the default horizontal position, meleeing doesn't seem to work, a new keybind would be nice

- the mini-map has become useless

- not being able to reorient ourselves reliably and the uselesness of the mini-map makes navigation difficult and often confusing. 

 

The mode needs a new mini-map now, one that would reflect 3D environment. The Grineer missions show only vague markers, the Corpus missions don't reflect you turning upside down.

[MegatronG1]

The movement freedom is pretty good on open maps but on corpus maps which seem to have been created for the original archwing movement, you can have a tendency to crash into walls more frequently than on grineer archwing missions, which can potentially slow you down before you can even make it to the transports in the pursuit mission for the corpus.

I'm pretty sure everyone are all feeling nauseated when flying in the archwing now. For me, the only way I've been able to deal with the intense spinning is by focusing my vision on the archwing character's upright position rather than looking at the map, which helps reduce the motion sickness.

I propose that the screen should either have a bigger UI to give the archwing a more spacecraft type feeling or something and find a way to move the archwing character to the middle of the screen similar to when you are using your after burners, but not have the character in your face blocking the view.

[rockscl]

Watchout:

 

Spnning your mouse in circles actually changes your rotation and it is actually reliable

[lyravega]

Archwing is still a mess. The main reason is that it still lacks a proper HUD. Some of the issues has been ironed out, but the main thing that is there to assist players find their bearings is left out.

The movement didn't need any changes. It changed, and I'm fine with it. Or rather, I was fine with it till I ran a mission and realized that the freedom of movement causes more problems as we didn't receive any overhauled map for Archwing. I realized that what I was calling useless before; useless map was rather useful as the tilt boundaries allowed you to make something out of the map. But without those boundaries, you tilt, and tilt, and tilt and suddenly map gets rotated. 

Also, with this movement scheme, we need roll function. As in rolling clockwise and counter-clockwise. Also the auto-level feature needs to be an option, it shouldn't start to auto-level as soon as you let go of your movement which causes even more confusion. By the way, this comes from a guy who has played a lot of space sims/games and stuff. Freespace, Freespace 2, Evochron series, Elite stuff, you name it. This game just confuses me, and I never had a feeling like this in any of those dedicated games.

In an unrestricted environment, where movement in every direction is allowed, proper tools should be there to assist us and we have tools that I can easily call "bare-bones" and "would be better if it wasn't even there". There is a huge "wasted" potential. For example, how about more missions like Jordas Golem; you go in on foot, and leave with your archwing, or get there with archwing, blow a hole in the hull and continue the mission on foot? 

TL;DR: If you want to make something fun out of Archwing, then give us something GOOD; with proper HUD (tools). Don't do a half-baked job and treat it like a failure

[Tenno29543]

I love the nice crosshair you added but i can not deal with the FOV, i loved the old FOV and i think it worked perfect in archwing, with the new FOV in place, i am having great troubles shooting, seeing where i am going and locating enemies and objectives and yes, i have failed a mission due to the issue.

[SubcrazyDragon]

The new movement, as much as a programing hell it must have been to get that working, is also a giant mess. The camera is way too close and constantly making so you have a close up of your shoulder, completely blocking your view. The new freedom of movement is totally ruined by the old tile sets. The new rush mode is pretty much unplayable because of this. You constantly get stuck on walls and can't see anything, one minute your going forward hit a edge and get flipped back around and loose all sense of direction. The biggest enemy is the movement rather than the mobs.

The movement really only works on the big open space tile sets. Everything else, aka 75% of the other missions, is too narrow and too much crap everywhere to where it is more a chore moving without crashing into a wall than fighting the enemy.

[vaarnaaarne]

I suppose an optimal solution would be to let the player choose between 1.0 and 2.0 Archwing movement and controls.

[CarrotSalad]

It's so hard to spot the location of enemies on the HUD. The biggest problem for me remains the effects pressing space button has on the warframes height. My warframe gains altitude everytime i press it. I want to go faster when i press space button. I dont want to fly into the roof above me which is what happens.

The cross hair feels too high over the warframe. This causes a problem when trying to guide the archwing through tight places in the rush mission. As you have to shoot the mine and then because you aimed at the mine the archwing's direction is towards the place the mine was at rather than through the corridor. It sends you offcourse and because of the delay and over compensation present in the controls. If there was a way to detach the crosshair from movement it might be more capable.

Holding space button causes the archwing to raise altitude when its been interfered with by either a mine or other landscape. The zoomed in FOV also makes it extremely hard to aim with melee. There needs to be some Q/E controls for rotation added. This is crucial imo if the current control system is to be kept.

Edited July 11, 2016 by CarrotSalad
Clarified a long term anoyance with the archwing controls.

[TheMightyBaloon]

So I logged in and on the cool-o-meter we have starchart 3.0 or 1.0(remixed) - checked. New ways to farm void - checked. Catbros - checked. Archwing... What in the world did happen to archwing. 

Okay so besides the glaring rant here is my problem. The movement feels off, forward goes forward, backwards go backwards, left goes left and my whole archwing just shifts that direction and the mouse movement. In general it feels like a 2d movement implemented on a 3d plane. But that is something people can get used to but the camera... oh god the camera movement is just so confusing. It feels like you are the center point and everything else rotates around you and I guess it simulates what would weightlessness would feel like when you are floating in space but it is just so confusing. And not to mention the instant headache I've got after playing for just 10 min. And the adjustment that happens once you stop moving for about a few sec is barely fixing anything. 

I used to play AW to relax, float like a butterfly sting like a rhino with a jat kittag smashing grineers, like that sort of thing. But the movement now  just feels like you are in a bumper car hitting everything. And at this point I am even afraid of running jordas verdict just because I would get angry trying to fit through the corridors and raging at my screen.

Well hopefully this isn't permanent otherwise R.I.P AW, and hello endless kavat farming.

[Echowing]

13 hours ago, Brasten said:

Movement in Platform mode needs to be crisp, the camera pulled way back, and a better system for Lock-On and Orientation implemented. The first two issues are easier. Restore the Archwing 1.0 camera and movement (no momentum building) for this mode. 

I would actually love a system like this, where while in "platform" mode, the system uses Archwing 1.0 movement and the player's rolling orientation is locked, but upon boosting the game switches into a more dogfight-style moveset, allowing the player to turn and roll.

[S0AZ]

To be honest, i expected alot from this archwing rework. As far as i'm concerned, the old archwing system, despite it's lack of popularity was superior than this new system which as a bunch of disadvantages imo. First the FoV is just too small, lacking vision plus the 6DOF just giving you cancer. Pls atleast increase the FoV like the old one and provide players to adjust back to the original position

[HideorEscape]

The new archwing movement overhaul is really disorienting, confusing and hard to control the flight. In the corpus tile set I keep bumping or crashing into walls all the time because archwing keeps rotating and I can't fly straight in a line. In the older archwing I was able to fly through obstacles easily and without crashing into any walls at all. The field of view is too close to the archwing and when I aim with the gun while its rotating and disorienting it causes motion sickness. Archwing movement was fine the way it was and it wasn't supposed to be changed. Its much worse right now and it didn't improve anything when it causes disorientation and motion sickness.

Change it back to the way it was or remove the constant rotation and make FOV more distant from archwing. Simplify it, I want to be able to fly straight in line and to easily drift left or right in a curve smoothly with no disorienting rotation just like it was in the older archwing.

[RhibeRhino]

I loved archwing. I was excited when i saw a new update, new movement and stuff...

AND WE GET THAT?! More inertia, making trench runs even more difficult ( which could be nice..... if there wasn't all the other problems)
(And you think that with all tenno technology we couldn't get dampeners on the wings....)

I don't now how they messed that up, but for the first time ever since i started gaming, i had motion sickness and had to stop playing. I played a lot of space games with *similar* movement,and just games in general, and never got sick. So one question (two actually) : How? and Why did they do that?

I understand that DE wants to get more players to play archwing, but as far as i can see, there's not that many new players, and old players are leaving archwing now.....
( And on that topic i need to add the fact that, they want new archwing players, BUT, you now need Plats to buy slots for wings and arch-weapons. Oh, and obviously, you'll need either plats or friends to get all arch-weapons, since parts are in opposed syndicates. That could work IF people actually wanted to invest plats in archwing.....)

At least i can still play the free space missi..... oh, wait. We also have all the other issues. Welp, no more archwing for now!

Edited July 11, 2016 by Nolife28

[41_ma3]

6DOF should be limited to free space tiles.

[Epicagemo]

So i just did JOrdas.... and i had serious motion sickness and i had to sit myself down. Please give us back the old one, archwing in its current state is barely doable for many. Please fix soon...

[ligonare]

Very, very bad 2D minimap to show location of objectives, mods and enemies. Oh the mod is above me? Where is up? Oh the enemy is on my left? Nope, it is below my left leg.

Mod acquisition on open maps is also horrendous, some loot and mods retain the inertia of the enemies killed and go flying off through space. Many mods are always left unacquired because the map is such a huge place.

Simple fix: Kill an enemy, enemy drops loot. Allies kill enemies, enemies drop loot. All Loot pops up directly in your HUD, no collecting needed. Do this for archwing only and perhaps more people will enjoy archwing

Edited July 11, 2016 by ligonare

[Zharun]

Before the update i really liked jumping into Archwing and doing the Interception or speeding through some Corpus missions. (Defense was bad though so good riddance)

The controls felt tight and snappy, I could see what i was doing and i had full control over my Archwing. Even the minimap, while not amazing at all, was useful in providing directions.

But oh boy did that change...

 

The Good: - new Crosshair is way more visible

The Bad: - I feel like a fat toddler on roller-skates with impaired vision and an uncontrollable Twitch

 

why you would reduce FoV to vomit inducing levels while adding 6DoF is beyond me, in fact why haven't you introduced a separate Fov-Slider for Archwing

rotating players without their input is infuriating and makes aiming a chore while not helping on the motionsicknessfront

the Inertia should only be there when you want aka while sliding

minimap is now completely useless, maybe replace it with a improved Hud so you know where the objectives/enemies and LOOT are (looting in archwing was always terrible except if you suck it with Itzal)

Affinity radius, i feel, was and is wayyyy too small for this mode, leveling takes forever even with Eximi(?) now

 

So yea,... I guess i wont play Archwing for quite a while until the movement is A-reverted to old or B-fleshed out way more than this half baked mess we have now

 

sorry to be so negative but you asked for feedback and sugarcoating a mess doesn't make it better, you only have to clean up the sugar too

 

Ps.: i hope Titania's 4 uses movement 1.0 otherwise I feel she will be godawful for me at least which would be a shame

Edited July 11, 2016 by Zharun

[Kai]

I have never crashed so much against obstacles and walls with this update, especially during Rush Missions. The new movement is really realistic since we're in Zero-Gravity but the fact that the map can turn upside down can really confuse people (I like to use Itzal so I have the tendency to spin around when I try to limit my Blink by targeting a terrain). Perhaps an option to maintain space stability by keeping the perspective as it is without letting it turn upside down or any other form of odd angles? Just an option in settings would be good as I like to keep track of the things around me.

 

Also on top of that, I can't help to tilt my head left or right as the camera itself swerves left or right as my Archwing Move in an odd angle, this is basically coming from me playing Trench Run Missions which are rather difficult in terms of camera angle as not only does my camera move, the world itself moves as well. On other hand, playing the new Archwing Movement in Open Space is really fun and not really that difficult since there is not much obstacle or things to remember that would most likely stop your flight.

[blink8888]

Please just give back the old system for the archwing