[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

[Valiant]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

As Developers, we want to emphasize: nothing is set in stone. Warframe is known to be always changing and adapting. Remember that groups work best together when respect is shown, so while we can and do look past a lot of vitriol to find what you think, it's better that you express your thought without it.

I don't think this is generally an issue. The issue is how long it takes and a repeat of a typical process we have had with DE - you introduce a feature/system and it seems to take you a while to actually refine it at what appears to be its prime time.

 

Focus, being a prime example simply because it was significant, has a massive beta tag attached to it suggesting frequent changes and touching up, but really hasn't received as many changes as implied - despite there being countless feedback threads about it, with many I imagine being spot on with feedback and suggestions. Kubrows also received this treatment.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Naith

[Azrael]

3 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

No mention of fixing riven mods that have stats impossible for the weapon they are for.  Such as zoom on sentinel mods

Zoom is quite useful on sentinal mods and is fairly standard on weapons like Vulklok. It increases the range at which the sentinal can engage enemies. Carrier, for example, has really bad range. But slap a zoom mod on vulklok and he (she?) becomes a sniper.

[Aceofgods]

These new mods remind me of the pre-Update 7 mods, which were randomly generated the moment you picked them up. Farming mods back then was exciting because you couldn't tell what you'd get until the end, and doing high level missions had the better chance to grant the 'rare' dual-stat mods (Crit Chance and Multishot were my favorites). These mods bring back great memories of Warframe's infancy, and I enjoy that.

I would like to see more unique modifiers on Riven mods, however. Currently, all of the effects a Riven Mod may have are stats present on other mods. I personally think every Riven should have a randomly generated unique effect. Additional damage to targets struck by a teammate recently, targets damaged by this weapon deal reduced damage for x seconds, shooting teammates with this gun will heal them for % damage. Things that might make us think about different ways to use the weapon itself. Not every effect should be damage related, certainly, but a unique effect would certainly diversify builds.

[Xekrin]

2 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Zoom is quite useful on sentinal mods and is fairly standard on weapons like Vulklok. It increases the range at which the sentinal can engage enemies. Carrier, for example, has really bad range. But slap a zoom mod on vulklok and he (she?) becomes a sniper.

Oh, excellent, wasn't aware that they had any affect.  Although this doesn't eliminate the disdain I've seen from pretty much every single person whose obtained a stinger or laser rifle riven mod.  The other examples are still valid though AFAIK.

[shadowjeff18]

i love the new mods personally, but my only concern is the way to achieve the mods.

i know that this way people play sorties again, but can we also get other spots to get them from (like raids (as a bonus drop give it a 20% chance or anything)).

or give a daily/weekly quest like clem and the ayatan.

 

also a question, will baro ki'teer also sell unveiled riven mods?! (wouldnt mind it to do though)

[Namastyler]

I'll be fast.

Adding quirks to weapons intended as a passive power to each weapon is PERFECT.

Adding RNG over RNG over RNG creating a system to make us use weapons we don't like or use, is not.

For once, I'm not going to farm ANY new mods because I don't want this new system, I don't need this new system and it's hurting players from the beginning.

Usually I don't write here much because I generally like what I see in game, but this is not something I want on Warframe.
If i want this, I can play Borderlands. The first.

That said, give us more ways to USE what we formed and upgraded, not more ways to discard what we farmed and formed for so long doing the same, exact, thing, over and over again. Please. And thank you for everything.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Namastyler

[AreWeHuman]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon.

Your commentary about meta weapons has been taken to heart as well, and we will be tweaking the algorithm to account for 'Riven Disposition'.

'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

The introduction of riven disposition makes the first part of this no longer relevant and indeed a contradiction.

How is creativity and choice encouraged by not letting the players make any choices?

This is all just so rushed and it shows.

At this rate I'm going to creatively act as if these mods don't exist or creatively do something else with my time.

Edited November 15, 2016 by AreWeHuman

[Koldraxon-732]

I will put it simply.

Spoiler

 

RIVEN MODS

Spoiler

 

PROS: 

-WHEN it outputs a decent mod (i.e: Damage + mag size*).

CONS:

-*Mod is for Snipetron, which is unobtainable without trading as of this moment.

SOLUTION:

Have the Riven Mods take into account what weapons you haven't been using that are in your inventory (i.e: Burston Prime) instead of picking weapons you don't have or don't want the mod for.

My logic for this is, due to how difficult it is to unveil these mods, and the chance that their stats would degrade the already useless-in-Sortie weapon to the point of the mod itself being useless, unsellable, and ending up being discarded by some means due to no possible way to fix it without wasting precious Kuva, which you can get only 600 a go on one mission on one planet without proper problems.

KUVA SIPHONS

Spoiler

 

When you manage to get a team and a Siphon spawns, success is usually assured.

The problem is that their frequency is difficult to discern and they ONLY spawn on Sedna, because there's no Grineer Galleon/Asteroid_Base tilesets on the Queens' Fortress or Uranus that have Grineer as main foe to proc it.

And when they appear on any planet OTHER than Sedna, the following issue exists:

Allied to Grineer, meaning you can't do Siphon, yet Siphon spawns. Queens Guard should be neutral to Grineer, but hostile to Tenno and Infested/Corpus/Orokin/Sentient.

This makes it impossible to get that Kuva, forcing the Tenno to quit out of confusion and dismay.

Additional issues:

Whenever host migrations occur thanks to internet issues and a Kuva Siphon is active, the Siphon stops working, no Kuva Guardians show up.

No tileset support for Kuva Siphons beyond already mentioned tilesets. Nor any Kuva Siphon / Riven Mod Alerts for those who completed War Within to do.

No explanation about the 'good/bad' choices system introduced, or their effects.

No indication of Kuva Siphon activity in Star Chart, forcing thorough fast-runs through missions (biased towards Capture due to efficiency, Targets often DIE and are yet captured).

Kuva Guardians or any alternative means to attain Kuva DO NOT EXIST on the Fortress, making the tileset virtually useless to many, except to farm Neural Sensors. There are also no Archwing segments/transition points to this tileset despite some missions having the label on them.

Suggestion related to Kuva Siphons:

Perhaps have a Grineer Faction counterpart to Bursas, with the Queens Guard showing up with a 'mini' Kuva Siphon in tow for squads who have TWW finished, or at least make use of the Grineer special units (Baliffs are one example).

Unrelated issues:

Spoiler

Riven Mods don't drop anywhere but the absurdly low chance of Sorties. With the (some aren't as) strategically impassible or assumed-to-be impossible requirements of the mods for the chance of a mod that is entirely useless (any negative stats, weapon not owned, and so on) currently at play, it wouldn't be nonsense to have the mod randomly drop from numerous other sources (Conclave, Index / Rathuum, chances at Derelict after 25 minutes + Void after 25 minutes - only on limitless missions like defense, and perhaps on Nightmare Bosses for example) to allow more people to respond, and for us to -not- reroll something only to find we don't and cannot get enough Kuva.

Out-of-this-topic, Tenno-related issues, ideas:

Spoiler

 

Tenno form cannot sustain a suitable attack/defense in most missions beyond level 10, and before level 25 they are more suited to a crawling stealth fighting style that is jarringly opposing their existential facts: They should be basking in a shield of Void energy which scales from the Warframe's health/shields/armour merged and halved, and their powers should damage enemies based on their own stats.

To reinforce the Tenno-Warframe link, perhaps have an option to allow the Tenno to externally direct the Warframe using 3/4ths of the Gear Wheel, which, in Tenno form, lacks your equipped items.

Additionally, when extracting in Tenno form, all XP gained in the mission is lost.

Tenno themselves cannot do basic actions like crouching (without the Void mask), rolling, sliding, or climbing. Would like to be able to.

Tenno CAN hack terminals, revive allies, pick up loot, and use Warframe emotes,

In the Orbiter, the Tenno can use all interfaces (except Kubrow/Kavat interaction), but the Tenno's head/face doesn't follow the cursor except in Navigation and the Tenno-related interfaces.

Possible improvements to the Tenno:

Grant them the ability to borrow their Warframe's sidearm (if dual, take one, half clip, double damage) as a primary weapon, and shift their laser to the 'sidearm' section. Melee would be taken up by a lesser version of Void Blast that will knock over, but not so far, enemies. Rescue targets can do this, why can't we?

Tenno powers and health/shields would be augmented by Warframe's mods: Health/shields of a Warframe, combined, divided by 3. That is your Tenno's shields. As for the Armour of a Warframe, that stat itself will be placed atop the Tenno's health. Power efficiency/storage space/strength/range will be influenced by Warframe's modded stats.

Tenno damage-based powers (Void beam, blast, dash) would scale with enemies to make them feel powerful, and meaningful in situations where your 'Meta arsenal' is useless.

Instead of health cutbacks when 'dying' as a Tenno (perhaps play the same effects as when the spawn/despawn when this happens? ), perhaps have a brief period where the Warframe cannot attack with guns, use powers, have shields, or parkour. If the Tenno is to remain less effective than the Warframe in some respects, then they shouldn't be forced to come out to try and kill a level > 40 enemy (unkillable with Tenno powers) and keep dying, until the Warframe itself has only 1 health.

Focus and [External Transference?]:

Instead of keeping these split, perhaps have the Focus School of choice impact on your Tenno's powers, acting like a full set of Augment Mods for every power you have. Speaking of this, Controller binds are a little odd; may I suggest binding these Tenno Powers to Warframe power buttons to open up 'basic mobility' and 'weapon stealing' gameplay elements?

 

The most unrelated part of this:

Spoiler

Pet Golden Maw, when?

Bugs:

Spoiler

 

Kuva Siphons don't spawn on tilesets that are not Grineer Galleon or Grineer Asteroid Base, meaning they only show up on Sedna and sometimes Saturn.

Kuva Siphons disappear or don't function at all once an Assassin appears (rare occasion) or upon host migration success.

Sometimes, Emotes are locked/disabled for reasons unknown.

Tenno are weak, if not useless in missions of levels 15+, with increasing consequences.

Experience gained in a mission is not recorded if extracting using Tenno Void teleporting.

Kuva Guardians and perhaps Kuva 'caches' do not exist on the Fortress tileset.

Fortress tileset waypointing confuses and misleads Tenno off edges into space, if not get stuck in a bunker.

Controller binding missing: Crouch for Tenno.

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by Koldraxon-732
Added more words. Also, the Queens need more Kuva.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

8 minutes ago, Aceofgods said:

These new mods remind me of the pre-Update 7 mods, which were randomly generated the moment you picked them up. Farming mods back then was exciting because you couldn't tell what you'd get until the end, and doing high level missions had the better chance to grant the 'rare' dual-stat mods (Crit Chance and Multishot were my favorites). These mods bring back great memories of Warframe's infancy, and I enjoy that.

I would like to see more unique modifiers on Riven mods, however. Currently, all of the effects a Riven Mod may have are stats present on other mods. I personally think every Riven should have a randomly generated unique effect. Additional damage to targets struck by a teammate recently, targets damaged by this weapon deal reduced damage for x seconds, shooting teammates with this gun will heal them for % damage. Things that might make us think about different ways to use the weapon itself. Not every effect should be damage related, certainly, but a unique effect would certainly diversify builds.

FANTASTIC +11111111111

[WhiteCopain]

This is great, but can we please fix the weapons that got their holsters broken with this patch? Sonicor even in default holster is all sideways when I use it =/.

[mrecentric]

I'm curious where your goal came from. The premise, IMO, is a terrible idea. What makes your arsenal unique is what weapons/frames you use, how you mod them, and how you play with them. I don't want this to turn into even more of an RNG grindfest than it already is.

Giving me a mod for a weapon that I don't use ISN'T going to make me use that weapon. It's going to make me throw away the mod and hate RNG even more.

[Urlan]

I personally do not see the stated goal of increasing variety with these mods as, currently, they have limited mod storage spaces at 15, and can only have one equipped at a time on the given weapon. Take into consideration the existence of negative modifiers along with increasing cost in cycling, and I see something that will either chase players away from the mechanic or is not useful enough to be explored. With existing limits to mod spaces, bonuses, and weapon mod slots being at a premium on even the least used weapons, I feel that either the random nature or exponential cost of trying to obtain positive benefits would need to be addressed before looking at reducing or ruining the positives.

Think of a kinder egg, do you buy it for the cheap chocolate or for the prize chance inside? If the prize inside is never useful to the buyer or indeed ironically is harmful to them, the consumer is unlikely to view the kinder egg purchase as a treat. Riven mods are being treated as high level rewards, and as such should be worthy of their costs, limits, randomness, and mod real estate they would need to occupy. I feel that the concept of having random combinations of mods is a useful one but you can't have a negative without a positive and hope to use it as encouragement. I hope this input can be of use.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Urlan

[Azrael]

12 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Oh, excellent, wasn't aware that they had any affect.  Although this doesn't eliminate the disdain I've seen from pretty much every single person whose obtained a stinger or laser rifle riven mod.  The other examples are still valid though AFAIK.

Yeah, those are a little silly. It'd have to be a pretty crazy mod to make me use laser rifle over vulklok.

[KIREEK]

And so our effort in buying mods for the weapons we use the most will receive nerfs while the weapons we don't use will receive a buff.

That's cool, but why didn't you guys do that before releasing the update, this isn't exactly a mistake we can fix with 1 forma, plat, effort in rerools, grind, challenges, plat and many formas were used already, at this point you will mess entire builds across multiple weapons.

How drastic will the changes be? can we start selling our sinoid mods before the nerf turns them into useless mods that have overall bad random stats?

Seriously, alot of effort was done and is still being done right now, don't screw the players effort.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by KIREEK

[OzoneSlayer]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

 existing end-game missions

 

What? I don't understand. What do you guys consider as warframe's endgame

[Sannidor]

These arguments defending Riven mods don't convince me at all.

This mechanic is pure power creep and lack of balance.

Should we trust DE's good intentions and not our senses and experience?

At this point it seems you're motivated by greed, hoping for players to buy lots of platinum, buy overpriced insanely strong mods and become gods - this is what Riven system offers.

The fact we don't get different weapon mod when re-rolling and insane costs of continuous attempts make it even worse.  

I'm a lucky owner of two Riven mods for... Buzlok and Miter. This will allow me to make them less awful but they will still suck. What's the point?

What about syndicate mods? They were suppose to give new life to otherwise useless weapons, right?

Why are Riven for primary weapons only?

We DO NOT need more power at this point, we need:

• interesting enemies who are more than damage sponges (last update gave us mostly reskins)
• much, much more attention to existing content - weapons and powers, animations, maps
• fixes of broken mess which is Archwing, sadly required for more and more content
• a clear, non cryptic statement from DE what is the direction of the game because many players lose trust and interest in the game

No matter how "non mandatory" endgame content is, existence of new OP mods makes all previous builds irrelevant.

Riven mods are a mistake, even if you backpedal from it we won't forget you profited from game breaking decision when declaring constant attention to balance. 

Edited November 15, 2016 by Sannidor

[Fari]

" The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. " Really hate this part, I mean I can deal, but... like. it becomes WAY too ludicrous. Just because you don't have to get the most minmaxed one possible doesn't mean ending up with a 10000 kuva reroll cost while you have -140% damage mod is a good thing. Not at all.

[MDRLOz]

What about balancing against the negative stat roll. It's just annoying to see people who get perfect rolls with no downside.

 

If a negative stat is rolled then the other positive stats on the mod should be receive a bonus to give stats greater than a mod that rolls three positive stats. Otherwise no reason to use a mod with evil and pointless negative stats. It's just eating potential positive stat space.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

18 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

And so our effort in buying mods for the weapons we use the most will receive nerfs while the weapons we don't use will receive a buff.

That's cool, but why didn't you guys do that before releasing the update, this isn't exactly a mistake we can fix with 1 forma, plat, effort in rerools, grind, challenges, plat and many formas were used already, at this point you will mess entire builds across multiple weapons.

How drastic will the changes be? can we start selling our sinoid mods before the nerf turns them into useless mods that have overall bad random stats?

Riven Disposition--It's rewarding end-gamers' efforts with choice by freeing up viable playstyles with appropriately weighted bonuses that balance out weapons across the board.

I'm still hoping for a weapon specialization (companion) system that involves training and an "effort=reward" basis because obtaining my Tenno's Signature Weapon by gambling, dice-rolling, bartering, and spending "in-game" money just plain disgusts me...

"How did you become such a master with that weapon, mighty Tenno?"

Answer A:

"The gun is so overpowered by mods that Prodman could kill Lephantis with it in one hit.  It has nothing to do with skill.  I gambled over and over to try to get it this way and when I failed, I gave some guy 120 Plat in tradechat for this awesome Riven Mod and now I can smoke Shadow Stalker with my eyes closed."

Answer B:

"I trained long and hard using the sacred disciplines.  Finally, this weapon spoke to me...I found a master and trained until I became one with it...it as an extension of my power and ability."

Edited November 15, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Azrael]

9 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

And so our effort in buying mods for the weapons we use the most will receive nerfs while the weapons we don't use will receive a buff.

That's cool, but why didn't you guys do that before releasing the update, this isn't exactly a mistake we can fix with 1 forma, plat, effort in rerools, grind, challenges, plat and many formas were used already, at this point you will mess entire builds across multiple weapons.

How drastic will the changes be? can we start selling our sinoid mods before the nerf turns them into useless mods that have overall bad random stats?

Seriously, alot of effort was done and is still being done right now, don't screw the players effort.

  Hide contents

 

 

I really want to know how much plat all that cost you...  :)

[notlamprey]

Spoiler

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Finished The War Within? If so, then you've received your first of a new class of Mod: Riven Mods!

Riven by nature stands for 'to split or tear apart violently' - which is an accurate summation of everyone's reactions to them! Cephalon Samodeus invites you to learn more about them and Mods in general here. For those of you who don’t know the specifics, Riven Mods have randomly generated stats (including MR requirement and polarities) for one randomly-selected weapon that are revealed once you complete a specific challenge.


Firstly, we should all understand our goal and why this goal existed in the first place:

We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal. We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way.

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style. We’re all familiar with blazing through missions to the Extraction Point, but this system gives players new challenges that require them to test the creative limits of their Arsenal in their quest to Unveil their new Mods. Yes, meta weapons are in the selection pool, but Riven Mods are not needed to make this gear (like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor) more powerful. What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box.

This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon. The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

We have started to add quirks to weapons, as shown with the recent Syndicate Melees, and this is supposed to be a continuation of that train of thought: we want players to be able to use their weapons in new ways that typical builds don’t encourage or allow. The current maximum number of 15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice.


Secondly, this system will be slow to roll out and include iteration.

Perhaps you've noticed only Rifle Mods exist in the Riven tier at this time - this is no accident.

We want to hear what our community thinks, which is the reason why we only implemented these for Rifles. Perhaps there are tweaks to this system that can make these Mods more unique and interesting beyond randomized stats so that our intentions are clearer. This mechanic is something that hasn’t existed in Warframe before, and we want to be careful in making sure it doesn’t undermine our ultimate goals for the game.

We took a risk (Warframe wouldn't be here without risks), and the insight our fans offer us is so incredibly valuable as we work to make Riven Mods, and Warframe, better. As Developers, we want to emphasize: nothing is set in stone. Warframe is known to be always changing and adapting. Remember that groups work best together when respect is shown, so while we can and do look past a lot of vitriol to find what you think, it's better that you express your thought without it.


Lastly, what is the immediate iteration you can expect?

In the past 3 or so days since The War Within has been released, our community brought up some very pertinent points concerning this system. The first is trading, and the lack of UI indication of how many times a Mod has been Cycled and the Weapon it is for, which will soon be added to both Veiled (after the initial Unveiling) and Unveiled Mods. For example, a Cycled Lanka mod will appear as Lanka Riven Mod until it is unveiled again.

Your commentary about meta weapons has been taken to heart as well, and we will be tweaking the algorithm to account for 'Riven Disposition'.

'Riven Disposition' is the way in which power level of Mods is attuned to the weapon it is generated for. Mastery Rank and Stats will factor into this attunement, so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones. Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix. Warframe content will not be balanced around Riven Mods, but Riven Mods will be balanced within their own ecosystem. We wanted this system to allow players to experiment with their Arsenal in existing end-game missions. It's not our intention to add content where these Mods will be necessary - it brings new ways of experiencing the existing game.

These are just some immediate changes we will be making, but we will be taking the rest of your feedback into consideration as we further develop this system.


Thank you for taking the time to read this post. The Riven system will go and change, and for those who choose to use it, this is a post that covers what you can expect!

 

 

First of all, thanks for writing all that; couldn't have been easy.

I want to try to go in depth about my problems with Riven Mods as currently implemented, because I think they introduce some very nasty potential hazards.

Regarding the goal, and why this system existed in the first place:

There are elements of this system that I can respect; the desire to give players a chance to have a "crown jewel" of their progress in Warframe is nice.

The fact that players cannot choose which weapon their mod is for... well, I will devote a bit of time to explaining one extreme example of where this can go wrong. (in spoiler)

Spoiler

I received a mod for Wyrm's Laser Rifle, and I haven't owned that sentinel or its weapon in a very long time. I mastered both, obtained Wyrm Prime and its Prime Laser Rifle, and sold the original variants of both. Now, I sit here looking at a mod for a weapon that I do not own (which is also a very weak weapon), which can't be equipped on the Prime variant of said weapon. The stats are not at all desirable, but can be cycled. However, I will never be able to change the fact that this mod only goes on the Laser Rifle.

My situation doesn't feel good. The opposite, in fact. I feel very much left as a "have not" while others get to play with extremely strong (and fun) new toys.

I can respect the desire to incentivize "revisits" to previously mastered gear, but the extreme ends of the spectrum are so far apart as to unnecessarily create division within the community. Many folks will have opinions strongly colored by their initial impression, including myself. I don't think that needed to happen, and we find ourselves perhaps needing to work harder than is necessary just to reach "civil and constructive discussion."

It also needs to be mentioned that player desire doesn't always line up with developer desire, and even if your goal is not necessarily to encourage the pursuit of "the perfect roll," we are already seeing the reality that this system got off on a bad foot. Its initial implementation didn't do enough to convince players of its intent, and now we face an uphill battle just to deal with the perception of "abusive grind." The danger will always be with us now, and many who remember bad past experiences with other games will not let go of their concerns so easily.

As you mentioned in the PAX Aus panel, the fairness of this game will always be under intense scrutiny. I feel like Riven Mods debuted under a bad light, and it may be a long time before the system arrives at what players feel is a healthy relationship with the rest of the game.

This is already long and I'm really sorry, but special mention needs to be made of the one way in which Riven Mods could break the best parts of Warframe's established progression system.

In Warframe, players have access to the full list of mods that can be found in the game. In addition, every copy of each mod carries exactly the same benefits as every other copy. This makes the mod system feel very "knowable," in a way that distinctly appeals to many players, particularly those who dislike the concept of "random stats."

Riven Mods have potential to find their own place within the game, but again, they started off with such a bad look.

"Potentially endless, random grind that feels too close to necessary."

It is imperative that you folks find a way to ensure that Riven Mods never represent "strictly vertical" progression. You need to build a healthy system of incomparable choices, centered around "quality of life" improvements - like reload time and zoom, which are nice to see - and quirks which don't affect the raw strength of a weapon so much as they add interesting functionality. If Riven Mods become too focused on raw damage - effects like damage, crit damage, crit chance increases - they will feel too close to mandatory, and opinion of the system will sour.

You've mentioned quirky weapons here, and I think some really cool stuff has come into the game as a result of that line of thinking. We can build on it.

Regarding slow rollouts and iteration:

Sorry to do this, but I need to say that the arrival of Riven Mods felt anything but slow. It was a huge change, upsetting the market terribly, and scamming ran riot. Mod stat values felt wildly random, out of control even. Please don't take this too harshly. The way Riven Mods landed... doesn't exactly make it easy for some of us to feel good about a promise to move slowly in future.

Having said that, slow is absolutely the way to go about it, for at least two reasons that strike me right away.

First, "slow" gives you a chance to carefully monitor "trouble spots" as features go live and begin to impact the game. Being able to respond quickly is so important, as you know.

Second, moving slowly gives you more time to incorporate the feedback from live features into future ones. Again, super important given how drastically this system can impact the game.

I'm preaching to the choir here, I know, but I think it's all worth writing for the benefit of anyone who might be newly encountering these ideas.

Regarding "immediate iteration":

The idea of "Riven Disposition" is interesting, but I'm sure many people will agree that it's probably going to take quite some time to get right. Will players be willing to endure that much uncertainty about the value (to themselves and others) of their mods?

It is my sincere hope that the commitment to keep Riven Mods balanced "within their own ecosystem" is feasible, because this presents a significant and ongoing challenge.

If players begin to feel that Riven Mods of a certain power level are necessary for any content besides "pure bragging rights" endeavors, we will all have a very serious problem on our hands.

Closing thoughts:

This has been a very... tumultuous weekend, to say the least. Players were entirely taken unawares by the arrival of this new system; it landed hard. It landed on DE as well, at a time when everyone was surely exhausted (or nearly so) after finally getting TWW out the door.

I still have serious concerns, because myself and many others can attest to feeling burned by this sort of "random loot" system in the past, but this place is all about cooperation between the devs and the community.

solidarity.

Warframe has the opportunity to be that rare game which manages to keep all these plates spinning, and I'm trying very hard to stay hopeful of good things.

Thanks to everyone who read what turned into a gargantuan beast of a post. I need a drink.

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by notlamprey
edit: potentially whiny content has been spoilered ;)

[vazerd68]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons.

1. take one per weapon type (count major stat difference such as status, accuracy, bullet velocity as different types)

2. balance them together for what you want the max player power to be

3. call it "top tier"

4. enjoy weapon diversity without :

        -overwhelming RNG

        -unsharable builds

        -a farming system that promotes leaving before the of the mission ends and forces you to play non-endless for farming while being the least random encounter in the game, hence, the most repetitive, cancerous endgame

I don't understand how you come up with this system as a solution to your ‘discarded’ weapons problem.

Making weapon tiers takes a few hours of maths and builds for a sudden regain interrest in dozens of weapons. That's like making a year of weapons in a day.

Edited November 15, 2016 by vazerd68
I can't proofread

[treb1e]

Dear DE devs,

I understand where you are coming from with the Riven mods. I really do.

As it is now, and even with the proposed changes, this systems will fail the purpose you have in mind. It will just be a way to (probably with plat) costly upgrade top tier weapons even more, and don't bother with the rest.

Why?

Because weapons have different power levels, sure we can enjoy using a particular weapon or 2 that are not considered "meta", but in the end if I have limited resources and time what am I gonna upgrade? Yes the top tier ones.

This problem is exacerbated by the triple rng wall you put before these mods: 1.gotta get it from the sortie 2.gotta be for the weapon I want 3. gotta have "decent" stats

So, failing to satisfy these 3 points what is the average Joe with a bit of plat gonna do? he's gonna trade for it. Is he gonna do it for every non meta weapon he wants to try with some riven? hell no. average joe doesn't have the time nor the patience (nor the plat or the willing to buy/make some).

As I see it, most veteran players with some plats are just gonna pick  their 15 top weapons and then try to buy a decent riven or reroll a bad one for them by their priority order, until they get bored with the system and don't bother with it anymore. It's not gonna add weapon diversity. It's not gonna add build diversity.

Even if you add more stat points for underrated weapons vs lower stat points for top tier weapons, the difference will remain. You will have tightened it but at the player's expense.

You want to force us to settle for mediocre stats on rivens by means of extreme rng and resource cost, you want to force us to try and give underrated weapons (which will stay so) another chance. Won't happen in the long run.

Instead of putting the work for weapon diversity on our shoulders, I suggest you do it yourselves and buff underdog weapons.

 

What to do with riven mods?

Remove rng from stats, just let them be 5 or 10 or 15 new mods for ALL rifles. The idea of combining bonus and malus (akin to nightmare or vault mods) works, these could be new combos including elementals too.

[Sannidor]

Just now, NearoC said:

" The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. " Really hate this part, I mean I can deal, but... like. it becomes WAY too ludicrous. Just because you don't have to get the most minmaxed one possible doesn't mean ending up with a 10000 kuva reroll cost while you have -140% damage mod is a good thing. Not at all.

My thoughts exactly, this is a little insulting to players intelligence.

We SEE the stats. We KNOW how they will affect weapon's power.

Why would I hesitate to risk improving something useless if it only can get better?

+130 crit chance, - 100% damage for a weapon with base 5% crit is most likely an instant re-roll, no testing will improve it...

[Fari]

Just now, Sannidor said:

My thoughts exactly, this is a little insulting to players intelligence.

We SEE the stats. We KNOW how they will affect weapon's power.

Why would I hesitate to risk improving something useless if it only can get better?

+130 crit chance, - 100% damage for a weapon with base 5% crit is most likely an instant re-roll, no testing will improve it...

Yeah, honestly. Big issue is just that a lot of choices aren't "choices". Most bonuses just don't do anything at all on various weapons, it's not just that they're different, they're without benefit.