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[DE]Rebecca

[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

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24 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones

Isn't this the intended goal of the Weapon Augment system? Seems like adding direct power creep instead of utilizing an existing system is counter intuitive.

In my opinion,  Rivens should be dynamic mods that grow in strength based off of how you use them. If you fight one faction more than another, it should enhance damage based off of your most common faction. If you crit more than apply status, it should ramp up crit rate. This way you could theoretically overcome the drawbacks of "non-meta" weapons by using them in a way that falls in line with the current meta.. 

How ever the current meta is; Do as much damage to as many mobs as you can and not give a damn about anything. 

Edited by Pyus
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Prepare for the enormous S#&$ storm from people who have spent thousands or tens of thousands of plat on perfect rolled mods for good weapons. I don't necessarily disagree with these changes but this absolutely should have been done before the system was released at all. If nothing else, they should have been totally untradeable until you decided exactly what you wanted to do with them. People have spent (the platinum equivalent) of hundreds of dollars on these mods in this weekend alone, I can't imagine this will go over well at.

And that's just at face value. You must also consider the huge fuss there will be over what DE decides is a good weapon (and therefore gets weak rolls) versus what the community considers a good weapon. What is their criteria for this? Popularity? Number of kills? Paper DPS? Things like the Sybaris, Braton, Burston etc that aren't exactly weak but are far from top tier are widely used and liked, are those eligible for good rolls? What are you even describing as good rolls? Does this only apply to straight damage increases, or does it include utility features like reload speed and recoil reduction?

This post makes me supremely uncomfortable. I was hoping for more immediate work on RNG control, more sources of the mods in general, REMOVING SENTINEL WEAPONS FROM THIS ENTIRELY, and the UI issues for trading (though you mentioned this is getting fixed).

Edited by Racter
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13 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones. Prepare to see a difference in stats of existing Riven Mods in an upcoming hotfix. Warframe content will not be balanced around Riven Mods, but Riven Mods will be balanced within their own ecosystem. We wanted this system to allow players to experiment with their Arsenal in existing end-game missions. It's not our intention to add content where these Mods will be necessary - it brings new ways of experiencing the existing game.

I really like this idea.

14 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The first is trading, and the lack of UI indication of how many times a Mod has been Cycled and the Weapon it is for, which will soon be added to both Veiled (after the initial Unveiling) and Unveiled Mods. For example, a Cycled Lanka mod will appear as Lanka Riven Mod until it is unveiled again.

Also good. After thinking about it a while, I actually like the fact that Riven mods retain their cycle count when traded. It effectively puts a "life expectancy" on the mods. Once a mod gets cycled so many times, it becomes too expensive to cycle further, and you either have to use it as-is or discard it. It forces the overall Riven market to constantly refresh itself.

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Honestly this just looks like a combination of powercreep for the metas and a bandaid for the underperformers it not going to change what people uses in the long run it just going to make it harder to balance later on. 

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2 minutes ago, Pyus said:

Isn't this the intended goal of the Weapon Augment system? Seems like adding direct power creep instead of utilizing an existing system is counter intuitive.

In my opinon,  Rivens should by dynamic mods that grow in strenght based off of how you use them. If you fight one faction more than another, it should enhance damage based off of your most common faction. If you crit more than apply status, it should ramp up crit rate. This way you could theoretically overcome the drawbacks of "non-meta" weapons by using them in a way that falls in line with the current meta.. 

How ever the current meta is; Do as much damage to as many mobs as you can and not give a damn about anything. 

I can see why they went this route. Weapon augments are one offs and with the ever increasing arsenal of Warframe they would have a hell of a time keeping up.

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If the mod is meant to breath life into discarded weapons, then the negative modifiers should not include an (un)healthy dose of:

  1. Damage.
  2. Multishot.

 

I've tried an Attica with -70% multishot without running Multishot mod and it essentially killed the weapon. You would have to run multishot but that would make the mod just practically useless when there are other random possibilities such as triple positives with no negative.

 

Note that this is coming from a very rare player who doesn't forma his gear since I like the idea of having to manage the mod points. Forma bypasses almost every aspect of mod restriction (which was there in the first place to give players decision over what they can add) and is thus considered as a form of 'legal cheating' to me, akin to console commands for other games. Otherwise, why would there be mod points, right? Just unlock the mod slots as you level the gears up instead.

Edited by matrixEXO
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Honestly, that the mods are tradeable kills any concept of "bringing new life to the arsenal".

I for one am a good sport and am willing to give Glaxion and Buzlok a new try with the mods I got, but it's certain that everyone will go after the god-rolls in trade.

Better nick that in the bud right away, IMO.

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I'm interested in seeing the Riven Mods changed, because I currently see absolutely no reason to indulge myself in farming them. If there were some kind of certainty and stability within their acquisition or rerolling mechanics I would give it a second thought.

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I think the Revin mods need to have "blacklist", which certain weapons cannot use the Riven. For example, Dread, Boltor Prime, Tonkor and etc.

Spoiler

l8UcyOh.jpg

 
 
 

These overpowered weapons by themselves are already powerful with regular mods, but giving them with more powerful mods on top of their ready existing stats, it's just insane in my opinion.

Also, I felt like allowing these new mods to be tradeable in the beginning was a bad move. People have already forked over lots of plat to get their ideal mod. Just ripping them out of their hands will just cause salt, when change happens.

Lots of salt...

 

Edited by Ibro156
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IF but only IF they are going to adapt really well to how much the weapon is already useful THEN i may think this was a good idea

Sadly, tweaking the algorithm to adapt to 400 quirky strange weapons perfectly requires a massive amount of work

WHY don't you just rework and rebalance the useless weapons instead? Why should i need a painfully farmed mod to use a weapon that should be usable since the beginning?

This looks like a nice addition but you should look at the mess you're deploying it in.

Balance the weapons first, then you can use these riven mods to smoothen the edges.

 

Like this, it's like you're applying a bandaid on the cracks and keeping it glued by throwing more glue based on the size of the crack

BUT THERE SHOULD BE NO CRACKS FROM THE BEGINNING

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Lets just say you didn't accomplish "the goal behind this system" you are talking about.
"15 Riven Mods is a reflection of this, as limitations encourages creativity and choice" - maybe, but that would be barely enough for rifle mods. Shotguns, secondary, melee, warframe mods are on the way. You will have to figure that thing out.

You didn't said anything about rolling costs, which are increased exponentially and unfair, if you really want people to find "that perfect mod for their weapon".
You are turning Riven mods into a band-aid, take a good look at yourself and ask: have we really ever tried to balance our weapons and look at it as a whole?

Lastly, give us more control over Riven mods, we can't rely on RNG when we are dealing with high lvl content, don't turn endgame into slot machine

Edited by iWitcher
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Please ensure that one of the algorithm changes prevents Riven mods from having stats which are irrelevant for the weapon (+crit chance on weapons that have no crit, for instance), or are much less than ideal (+puncture for the Cernos which is mostly impact).

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29 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

While this is fine as a goal for the system, a lot of work needs to be done before it's realistic. There are frequently stat combinations that are literally impossible to take advantage of, such as crit chance/damage on weapons with no crit, ammo capacity on sentinel weapons, etc. (why can sentinel weapons even roll from this?).

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I pray that you guys grandfather clause the existing rolls, otherwise your legacy will be tarnished in my eyes forever. Please don't punish the players for your hasty decisions and lack of playtesting.

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1 minute ago, Pyus said:

Isn't this the intended goal of the Weapon Augment system? Seems like adding direct power creep instead of utilizing an existing system is counter intuitive.

It can be automated now with aggregate data from the warframe servers. The weapon augments were a manual attempt to fix the issue of literally millions of players discarding weapons that were worked on so hard my the DEv's. They have finally managed to implement a system that may be able to automatically shoulder this burden, so long as it is maintained and monitored to not do a worse job than the dozen and a half syndicate mods.

This is a response also to the unintended power creep that invariably happens when games are fixed into a certain path due to the mechanics they have at their disposal. To attempt to bring ALL weapons and not just the lesser used ones forward as viable end-game equipment as a much easier and admirable goal.

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31 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

so you can expect to see more powerful Rivens for less used weapons and vice versa.

This modification will also affect existing Riven Mods to reflect our desire to give new life to ‘discarded’ weapons in a unique way, and not increase the power of the top tier ones.

This sounds good! But what about those of us who bought a good riven mod with plat? If someone paid a lot of money for a powerful mod, and that mod sees a drop in stats, they are going to be upset. Personally I bought a great mod for the gorgon (that works on the prisma gorgon), and I'm loving it. Is it going to be reduced in power?

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Having an opportunity to breathe new life into lesser used weapons is nice and all, I fully welcome the idea. However, there are two things that go completely against this goal, which are:

  1. Completely unreliable ways to even get any of the mods. It's RNG piled upon RNG, but you also have one chance at it per day, and with the way sorties have been rewarding for these past seasons, I might as well not even bother.
  2. Completely random weapon assignment. Which makes it impossible to make, for example, my Snipetron into the strong, endgame-ready weapon I always wanted to, because... well, chances are, I might never even get a Riven mod for the Snipetron.

Work these issues out, then you'll be a step closer to making this system actually useful.

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my one issue is while it is understandable that you want players to experiment wit non-meta weapons... you know what I would to do that the issue is that I feel restricted as riven mods are very hard to get and once you get them they are locked to one weapon, for example mine was locked to burston, while it is a non-meta weapon that may be neat to explore I personally am not a fan of the burston and would prefer getting it for a non-rifle in general but I feel like I can't without spending lot's of plat in a trade.  

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Hmm...

First, I would like to go on record that as someone that has never really cared for Meta over feel/flavour of a weapon/frame etc...I appreciate the ideology. However...If that's the idea from the off, wouldn't it have made sense to just omit the Meta stuff from the pool? That there's Tonkor or the like Rivens with insane values just guarantees things are going to explode when the changes roll along. Could have avoided that.

Secondly...For "Disposition"...would there be potential it would be affected by our weapon usage? Between that and a 'Top of the barrel' filter, it could be in theory easier for someone to get a Riven for a weapon they like. I mean, whilst I'm unsure what to make of it fact is I currently possess a Grinloc Scitox or however it's spelt, which is nice as it is one of my favourite guns; I can't deny there's a bit of interest if I can make this my gun given some chance. Spitballing, but considering we've all got that one weapon we just love for no rhyme or reason, you'd think our dedication would be an influencing factor perhaps?

Thirdly...Kuva. Currently I can't comment on the acquisition process*, but much like Cryotic it might be worth considering adding alternative revenues to acquire it, else people are just going to end up burning themselves out either hunting for the Siphons, or just getting tired of doing the same thing over and over. Easy example I can think of is perhaps a successful Assault mission bonus for cache acquisition or the like, but that's again more just a 'throwing it out there' matter.

Spoiler

*Reason I can't comment about acquisition is due to the lack of Controller functionality beyond Void Blast for the Operator mechanic War Within introduced. I'm confident you've seen the threads concerning the issue by this point.

Fourth: May be petty, but would it be reasonable to consider the stat values to be whole numbers, or at least work in factors of 5? Just wondering as it feels a bit...odd...having so many decimals after all this time with pretty stable whole values to work with. Not the end of the world either way I suppose.

Any event, apologies for going on as ever. Can't say I've any strong opinions on it as yet...but will be interested in seeing how things go now I know what the sentiment is behind it. 

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I'm surprised to see no mention of the community complaining about the random nature of those mods and that getting what you want feels frustrating and cheap as opposed to doing other tasks repeatedly. The random nature of those mod stats also muddies the waters immensely when it comes to judging what the statistically most effective stat combo is, not to mention the amount of work one has to put into grinding resources to "pull the lever" often enough until they end up with the same stat combination as their friends with a superior mod/better luck.

In addition to that, the sheer amount of power creep this system puts into the game works completely against what one of the long time complaints about the damage system was. Instead of nerfing every overpowered weapon or buffing all underpowered ones, this system has essentially removed one more mod slot from build diversity(not that there was much to begin with) and partly makes the performance of a player's gear dependent on multiple layers of RNG. Instead of making it easier to attain maximum gear efficiency this system made it harder, while creating frustration from having to spend, or waste, hours of game time to catch up to the few lucky ones that did get the "good" mod combos right away.

I honestly believe that you have to sit down and create a new manifesto or philosophy on balancing the weapons in game. Right now it looks like you're just trying to throw random ideas at the problem and hoping it will somehow solve itself.

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
typos
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1 minute ago, Azrael said:

This sounds good! But what about those of us who bought a good riven mod with plat? If someone paid a lot of money for a powerful mod, and that mod sees a drop in stats, they are going to be upset. Personally I bought a great mod for the gorgon (that works on the prisma gorgon), and I'm loving it. Is it going to be reduced in power?

A potential fix: Grandfather every riven mod currently unveiled and make them untradeable unless you reroll them; which would use the new system.  A little extra work for everyone who wants to trade but it will at least make those who spend platinum happy.

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5 minutes ago, zptc said:

Please ensure that one of the algorithm changes prevents Riven mods from having stats which are irrelevant for the weapon (+crit chance on weapons that have no crit, for instance), or are much less than ideal (+puncture for the Cernos which is mostly impact).

I would be slightly more favorably disposed toward mods like that if they added to the base crit rather than a percentage of the base crit on low crit weapons and etc.

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Honestly, the Riven Mods are honestly good and I personally like them. It reminds me of Borderland's randomized gun stats. The only thing I don't like though are Kuva Siphons being random which makes Cycling the Riven Mods a bit difficult (with the number of Kuva Cost increasing with each Cycle). Perhaps, on top of the randomized Kuva Siphon Spawn, you can add a Kuva Siphon Alert at set intervals during the day (akin to Nitain).

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