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Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*]

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19 minutes ago, UltimateGrr said:

who was later forcibly reprogrammed in to becoming the Lotus after the fall of the Empire.

So why is Ballas completely unaware of that fact?

In Chimera Prologue, he admits to being fooled by Natah's mimicry, claiming her to be and always have been a double agent working for the Sentients. According to the Lotus in the Jovian Concord, she was reprogrammed by the Orokin - something Ballas, as Executor and clearly in a major role in the Orokin's military, would be privy to, if not in charge of or did himself. Yet, if he was, why would he claim that she was always a double-agent? He'd know that, by removing the reprogramming, she'd revert to her original state. Even if he was fooled prior to reprogramming her, wouldn't her brainwashed state admit to this factor - why would the Orokin not grill a newly-subservient Lotus for information the Sentient's plan and reveal that the Margulis persona was a ruse? Chimera Prologue's theory on Lotus's behaviour and her own don't add up. It makes more sense that both of these groups are being deceived - Ballas being told that she was never anything like Margulis, that she was always a double-agent and Lotus being told the Orokin reprogrammed her.

Also, why would DE refer to the plot of the New War as a 'struggle about family and which side Lotus is on' if one side rescued her from brainwashing? Why would anyone, fresh out of brainwashing, entertain thoughts that the brainwashing was better? Unless they are brainwashed into believing they were brainwashed before, and unconsciously realise that fact and are fighting the ones manipulating them - leading to the conscious mental struggle?

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Opterator is a piece of equipment too, especially after you turn off his annoying and occasional comments noting obvious knowledge like Corpus having robotics and such.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

So why is Ballas completely unaware of that fact?

Maybe because Lotus was losing her grip over Natah and needed an elaborate way to fool Natah while keeping Natah in the dark of her convoluted masterplan of having us kill Natah.

EDIT: As in, Lotus pretended to be Margulis to lure Ballas in to set off this series of events whereby we end up killing Natah and somehow repairing Natah or making a new sentient body for her to parasitize through the helmet.

Edited by nslay

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1 minute ago, nslay said:

Maybe because Lotus was losing her grip over Natah and needed an elaborate way to fool Natah while keeping Natah in the dark of her convoluted masterplan of having us kill Natah.

That is another possibility.

Schemes within schemes, personalities within personalities.

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1 hour ago, nslay said:

EDIT: As in, Lotus pretended to be Margulis to lure Ballas in to set off this series of events whereby we end up killing Natah and somehow repairing Natah or making a new sentient body for her to parasitize through the helmet.

If we're going to speculate, I would agree that the helmet would be a good point to focus on. Considering how its been sitting in our personal quarters all this time, right in front of the door, the first thing you see when you enter your room, constantly reminding you its there. Feels like a Chekov's Gun to me.

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2 minutes ago, veloSylraptor said:

If we're going to speculate, I would agree that the helmet would be a good point to focus on. Considering how its been sitting in our personal quarters all this time, right in front of the door, the first thing you see when you enter your room, constantly reminding you its there. Feels like a Chekov's Gun to me.

Who made it? What is it (is it the core of another Sentient?)? And how did anyone ever get it on Natah in the first place!

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10 hours ago, (PS4)Dishinshoryuken said:

I still get goosebumps each time I watch that grab out of the void

That makes me wonder exactly how transference works, and how Excal Umbra was able to just yank us out of transference. The later may have to do with the Kuva used in his construction, though that doesn't explain Kuva's influence on transference.

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12 hours ago, Morrow said:

That makes me wonder exactly how transference works, and how Excal Umbra was able to just yank us out of transference. The later may have to do with the Kuva used in his construction, though that doesn't explain Kuva's influence on transference.

Most likely a visualisation of his will basically overriding the Tenno's and cutting the link. The strangling being considerably less metaphorical.

Though I do like the whole 'the arsenal was in first-person view' thing, that was clever.

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19 hours ago, veloSylraptor said:

If we're going to speculate, I would agree that the helmet would be a good point to focus on. Considering how its been sitting in our personal quarters all this time, right in front of the door, the first thing you see when you enter your room, constantly reminding you its there. Feels like a Chekov's Gun to me.

It's a simple equation, really. I take it that the moment when Ballas fried the helmet was the moment the Lotus died (the people who wanna kill "Space Mom" will be sorely disappointed by the lack of an opportunity), hence returning the Lotus to any form of existence would mean taking Natah's head by force and putting it back in the helmet. Though I feel as if the brainwashing happened on either side - on one with the helmet, and on the other, under M O T H E R's influence. I'm thinking that we might have to face a choice similar to the final one in the Glast Gambit - Restore the Lotus (which would mean killing Natah to salvage the CPU/Brain for the helmet), Leave Natah stranded to make her own choices without others' interference (and hoo boy that's a lot of trauma that's gonna get unpacked there once she realises she's got nobody left on her side but her semi-dead dad. it'll be hilarious.), or leave Natah to Hunhow to deprogram her and send her into protective exile forever (unlikely).

6 minutes ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said:

All warframes are people.

And if the individual idle poses, the Helminth's separate reactions to Nidus and the Operator, and the sword-pull in TSD are anything to go by - with suppressed personalities/autonomy as well. I'm thinking that Umbra can't go into "idle mode" since he's constantly too alarmed to do so when you transfer out. Other frames, I guess, just get some kind of void mask that locks them in place and prevents time from flowing for them, which is how they evade dmg on transference.

"Active" warframes seem to possess/run on a mind-meld instead of being purely controlled by the Operator, from what I figure. They seem to have overrides for autonomy when the Operator is in mortal danger (again, the TSD sword-pulling scene), which is, again, how Umbra has his passive, I think - a constant protective fear for the Isaah-surrogate.

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Posted (edited)

Looks like we're getting "Toggle Umbra parts" very soon. Unfortunately, the scarf isn't separated from the rest of Umbra attachments, so it's all or nothing.

 

Edited by Ksaero

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11 hours ago, Ksaero said:

Looks like we're getting "Toggle Umbra parts" very soon. Unfortunately, the scarf isn't separated from the rest of Umbra attachments, so it's all or nothing.

 

is it sad i remember that being a suggestion 3+ years ago before umbra was released 

just glad its going to be a thing soon

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On 2019-07-21 at 4:06 AM, Loza03 said:

Chimera Prologue's theory on Lotus's behaviour and her own don't add up. It makes more sense that both of these groups are being deceived - Ballas being told that she was never anything like Margulis, that she was always a double-agent and Lotus being told the Orokin reprogrammed her.

I like your theory! I had a feeling we knew very little and something's fishy, but I couldn't put this into words. 

To add something to this line of conversation (even though this is not the original topic of this thread), I've read through the transcripts of Natah, and found interesting pieces of information I long forgot already since completing the quest. When Hunhow noticed his daughter did not completed her mission, he told the Lotus:

"You betrayed us. As I awake, so will they. They will say you're riven and want to reclaim you. I will not be able to stop them."

So, they have awoken alright, and came for Natah. Maybe her headgear served as a protective device against the sentients invading her mind, and when it was removed by Ballas, her Mother attacked right away. According to the plot of the Second Dream, sentients are able to read minds, so corrupting them is just the next step.

This other quote I found interesting is from the Lotus, and is connecting to this topic only loosely:

"Natah was the daughter until I destroyed her. Now I am the Lotus. Now I am the mother."

Maybe we got this family thing too literally because of our own human standards. Maybe the sentients who are commanding an army of "children" are called "mother". Maybe that's not her literal mom she betrayed by becoming the Lotus, only her war general general of sorts. This still makes her the betrayer of her family, in a sense that a nation (or in this case, race) is kind of one's family. All this is speculation though.

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On 2019-07-21 at 6:03 PM, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said:

All warframes are people.

I don't believe that is the case for most warframes, especially the mass-produced models. I think they're produced from semi-mindless blanks with little sense of self, which is why they hardly do anything outside of an operator's influence.

On 2019-07-21 at 6:19 PM, evilChair said:

And if the individual idle poses, the Helminth's separate reactions to Nidus and the Operator

Helminth's reaction to Nidus differing from that to the operator may be due to it simply not knowing that he is our puppet, It seems infested are confused by the warframe's rejection of them. As Lephantis put it, "Why do you destroy us? We are your flesh," implying they are aware of the warframe's infested nature, but not their role as puppets. Perhaps the original Nidus possessed some sense of self, but I think it would suit the Orokin more that their mass-produced demi-god war machines are as docile and inert as possible when not under the influence of an operator.

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11 hours ago, Morrow said:

I don't believe that is the case for most warframes, especially the mass-produced models. I think they're produced from semi-mindless blanks with little sense of self, which is why they hardly do anything outside of an operator's influence.

I could be remembering it wrong, it's been a while. I thought the helminth was used to turn lots of people into the warframes (mass produced or not). I always thought it made for a good concept for why we have different skins for the same warframes. Different people. Different outcomes.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said:

I could be remembering it wrong, it's been a while. I thought the helminth was used to turn lots of people into the warframes (mass produced or not). I always thought it made for a good concept for why we have different skins for the same warframes. Different people. Different outcomes.

There aren't a canon explanation for this as far as I know, only theories. 

I think every type of warframe had an original (an umbra of sorts), who was a living human being taken into the warframe program - voluntarily or not. All the mass produced ones were copied from them, with slight differences. For example, Excalibur Umbra and regular Excalibur aren't the same, even if it comes to abilities. If the originals all sustained their consciousness after the transformation, they likely were, well, "scrapped" after a fully functional prime model was made.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said:

There aren't a canon explanation for this as far as I know, only theories. 

I think every type of warframe had an original (an umbra of sorts), who was a living human being taken into the warframe program - voluntarily or not. All the mass produced ones were copied from them, with slight differences. For example, Excalibur Umbra and regular Excalibur aren't the same, even if it comes to abilities. If the originals all sustained their consciousness after the transformation, they likely were, well, "scrapped" after a fully functional prime model was made.

Still, if you "3d-copy" a brain on a biological 3d-printer, it's still going to retain the same kind of personality thought and memories. There's nothing to confirm or deny that they retain their personalities despite being "maspro people", but what makes me sway towards "they do" is that it's the worst case scenario is that (for the sake of drama) all your frames decide to snap (once again) and take off on their own just like before they were pacified by the zariman kids.

Edited by evilChair
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3 hours ago, evilChair said:

Still, if you "3d-copy" a brain on a biological 3d-printer, it's still going to retain the same kind of personality thought and memories. 

Wow I didn't know there were experiments doing this! Extremely interesting topic, tried and failed to Google it, can you give me some sources (preferably online)?

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14 hours ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said:

I could be remembering it wrong, it's been a while. I thought the helminth was used to turn lots of people into the warframes (mass produced or not). I always thought it made for a good concept for why we have different skins for the same warframes. Different people. Different outcomes.

The way I see skins is kinda in a literal sense; they're physically covering their true form. Looking at the volt proto skin, nidus, and the infested in general, one could assume that warframes aren't naturally so tidy in their appearance, so the Orokin, obsessed with aesthetics as they were, would likely give them some touch-ups.

 

4 hours ago, evilChair said:

Still, if you "3d-copy" a brain on a biological 3d-printer, it's still going to retain the same kind of personality thought and memories. There's nothing to confirm or deny that they retain their personalities despite being "maspro people", but what makes me sway towards "they do" is that it's the worst case scenario is that (for the sake of drama) all your frames decide to snap (once again) and take off on their own just like before they were pacified by the zariman kids.

I don't think they would make an exact copy, just enough to do the job, like just replicating muscle memory and such. They might not even have a conventional brain at all.

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maybe an Umbra Lord?  Ballas's most beautiful creation, that would be the greatest epic to see kick in right about now.

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3 hours ago, ChaoticEdge said:

maybe an Umbra Lord?  Ballas's most beautiful creation, that would be the greatest epic to see kick in right about now.

well there is the umbra beast helm from china frame

maybe he gets a makover someday on global 

Image result for umbra beast helmetImage result for umbra beast helmet

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1 hour ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

well there is the umbra beast helm from china frame

maybe he gets a makover someday on global 

Image result for umbra beast helmetImage result for umbra beast helmet

meehhhh...I know they made him but I prefer seeing the umbra lord version being next version of the golden stalker umbra.  That would be epic.

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22 hours ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said:

Wow I didn't know there were experiments doing this! Extremely interesting topic, tried and failed to Google it, can you give me some sources (preferably online)?

No sources other than old-as-ball(a)s philosophy - just the swamp man paradox should be enough:

Quote

Suppose Davidson goes hiking in the swamp and is struck and killed by a lightning bolt. At the same time, nearby in the swamp another lightning bolt spontaneously rearranges a bunch of molecules such that, entirely by coincidence, they take on exactly the same form that Davidson's body had at the moment of his untimely death.

This being, whom Davidson terms "Swampman," has, of course, a brain which is structurally identical to that which Davidson had, and will thus, presumably, behave exactly as Davidson would have. He will walk out of the swamp, return to Davidson's office at Berkeley, and write the same essays he would have written; he will interact like an amicable person with all of Davidson's friends and family, and so forth.

Essentially, the underlying idea is that a perfect copy will be functionally not indistinguishable, but functionally identical to the original to the point that if A and A' were to be placed into separate but otherwise ideally identical situations, their behaviours will be perfectly identical without even the possibility for divergence. Then again, this view relies on something of a deterministic view of physics, but I personally find it hard to doubt that two brains sharing identical structure could in any way differ. Structure is brain, brain is choice.

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As said in the title, will there be any other umbra warframe in the future, cuz the only umbra Excalibur is so boring for us. May be DE can add more umbra warframes in this game to make those warframes more diverse.

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Yes there will be other Umbra frames...but DE clearly said these will NOT become Primes 2.0. SO we will only get a few selection of them and no hints so far which ones they have in mind

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