Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*]

[TaricTheAncient]

Excalibur Umbra was needed to make the Excalibur Prime seem less needed.

[(PSN)LBPRockstar21]

15 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

On monday they are going to release Umbra Soon™

For real!?

[(PSN)LBPRockstar21]

My theory of nidus umbra has to do with what an umbral Warframe is. They act on their own. Nidus I can see this happening but in a weird way. Nidus uses a different type of infestation that can't take over the mind of other things like the infestation can rn. But nidus umbra uses the actual regular infestation the one that we see in enemies. Nidus umbral looks will let us see a prime Warframe with a little bit of infested on it and more stacks he gains the more it spreads on his body. This will let us see what his og Warframe actually looked like.

[Tesseract7777]

IDK, its fun to speculate about, but I don't expect any more umbras. 

I know DE said there might be more umbras, but that not all frames would be umbrad or something like that, but I still think they might have just been saying that to make it sound like they were still open to more, to make it less obvious that Excalibur Umbra was just a way to sort of give people Exacalibur Prime without giving them Excalibur Prime so people would mostly STFU and stop asking about it lol. 

I still think more umbras would be fun though, and Nidus sounds like one of the more likely candidates, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for more, and even though DE said long ago that they wouldn't be umbra'ing every frame even if they did make more, it would be a dangerous can of worms, because a lot of people would still expect them to umbra every frame anyways and pressure them to do so. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Tesseract7777

[Myscho]

Umbra frames are dead end, DE give Excalibur Umbra for the exact reasons as @Tesseract7777 said, to stop players asking for Excalibur Prime or why China have Excal Umbra and Global build dont

[(PSN)LBPRockstar21]

4 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

IDK, its fun to speculate about, but I don't expect any more umbras. 

I know DE said there might be more umbras, but that not all frames would be umbrad or something like that, but I still think they might have just been saying that to make it sound like they were still open to more, to make it less obvious that Excalibur Umbra was just a way to sort of give people Exacalibur Prime without giving them Excalibur Prime so people would mostly STFU and stop asking about it lol. 

I still think more umbras would be fun though, and Nidus sounds like one of the more likely candidates, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for more, and even though DE said long ago that they wouldn't be umbra'ing every frame even if they did make more, it would be a dangerous can of worms, because a lot of people would still expect them to umbra every frame anyways and pressure them to do so. 

True true only one thing tho.if they wanted to give people Excalibur prime they could have easily re released it. I think de are gonna umbra frames that are more older in the lore ya know cause Excalibur was the first Warframe supposably. And there's a theory on y nidus was actually before Excalibur.

[Tesseract7777]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)LBPRockstar21 said:

True true only one thing tho.if they wanted to give people Excalibur prime they could have easily re released it. I think de are gonna umbra frames that are more older in the lore ya know cause Excalibur was the first Warframe supposably. And there's a theory on y nidus was actually before Excalibur.

They would have to have a very strict, and clear criteria that limits it to a few of the original frames like the starters or something, maybe Loki too since he used to be a starter, but it would have to be very clearly defined. I don't think they want the can of worms of all frames. 

[(PSN)LBPRockstar21]

2 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

They would have to have a very strict, and clear criteria that limits it to a few of the original frames like the starters or something, maybe Loki too since he used to be a starter, but it would have to be very clearly defined. I don't think they want the can of worms of all frames. 

Ye

[ZeroX4]

1 hour ago, (PSN)LBPRockstar21 said:

For real!?

100% true

[TaricTheAncient]

9 hours ago, (PSN)LBPRockstar21 said:

True true only one thing tho.if they wanted to give people Excalibur prime they could have easily re released it. I think de are gonna umbra frames that are more older in the lore ya know cause Excalibur was the first Warframe supposably. And there's a theory on y nidus was actually before Excalibur.

But they cant release Excalibur Prime unless they want to lose all cred forever so umbra was a smart choice.

[Marvelous_A]

I don't like the idea of Umbra other frames. It's pretty clear that Umbra is the substitute of Prime, which is exclusive to Excalibur Prime. Why bother making other Umbra warframes if they have completely functional prime variant? 

[OniDax]

6 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

I don't like the idea of Umbra other frames. It's pretty clear that Umbra is the substitute of Prime, which is exclusive to Excalibur Prime. Why bother making other Umbra warframes if they have completely functional prime variant? 

Because they'll look cool. Seriously, that's the only reason I'd still like to see more Umbra warframes. Because they'll hopefully look as cool as Excal Umbra. Like, I'd like to see Ash, Nyx, and Nekros Umbra because they could look really cool.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, OniDax said:

Because they'll look cool. Seriously, that's the only reason I'd still like to see more Umbra warframes. Because they'll hopefully look as cool as Excal Umbra. Like, I'd like to see Ash, Nyx, and Nekros Umbra because they could look really cool.

If looking cool is the only concern then DE could just release Umbra skins for those frames rather than making actual Umbra frames. 

[OniDax]

24 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

If looking cool is the only concern then DE could just release Umbra skins for those frames rather than making actual Umbra frames. 

I am absolutely fine with that. Whether they're new frames or just skins, I want more Warframes to have that Umbra aesthetic. The only thing they'd have to change would be to let you choose your Prime accessories, so that for a Prime warframe, you could choose either the Prime accessories or the Umbra accessories.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

If looking cool is the only concern then DE could just release Umbra skins for those frames rather than making actual Umbra frames. 

yea but then we lose out on umbra mod sets and umbra themed weapons , and the side bonus of anti sentient powers

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

yea but then we lose out on umbra mod sets and umbra themed weapons , and the side bonus of anti sentient powers

How? Where is it written that they can't be released separately?

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

On 2021-08-06 at 8:54 AM, Jarriaga said:

How? Where is it written that they can't be released separately?

why do primes always have prime weapons and prime frames in a bundle on release? 

simply put its easier for de to sell stuff as a packaged deal, however umbra mods could come from baro, same as prime mods , someday... maybe? but weapons usually are tied to a frame and get a bonus, so it would be a better incentive if its Frame + weapon (weapon has bonus with said frame) as that then pushes a better value if used together. plenty of themed weapons & frames are sold that way. coincidentally lots of rare or primed mods feature a frame on the cover, as umbras mods feature him, its possible that there is a lore connection to mod creation laced in that way.

though we do know de specifically stated the next umbras would not be lore based , so who knows

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

so Ive been contemplating some ideas and thought id share, these go into possible hypothesis on umbra creation and implementation

as this thread also was created to discuss and share possible ideas to maybe give the game devs some spark of inspiration  

this is spoiler heavy , so i have locked them behind spoilers for those new to the game

Hypothesis on sentient slayer strain (how the umbra line was started )

Spoiler

to start lets nail out some premises

A: the source of the frames is a virus that was released during the orokin erra (purposefully) to create gardens of variants that could be harvested/altered/re-purposed by orokin society , as a possible solution for combating the sentient 

Quote

 

vitruvian 3

Ballas: "Our hubris shone like a black star... for our technology, our war-machines were your kin. How easily you turned them against us. We were forced to older means. Not circuits, nor light... but flesh and disease. Our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies... became gardens!"

 

B: Excalibur prime is the prime (aka warframes in general) originator frame , per its codex and lore.

C: Dax were used as candidates for frame creation, as were other people (humans?)  both willing and unwilling

Quote

Ballas: "We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents. They transformed. They became Infested..."

D: helmith strain is the artificially engineered version of the virus (i will be calling technocyte  in this ) that was non infectious and not linked to the hive mind

Quote

Ballas: "We cultured the Infestation, conceiving of a hybrid. Transformed, but only just. The 'Helminth' was created, born to yield these new warriors, worthy of battle against you. The great and terrible Hunhow."

 

 D: warframe are humans and the method of which they are mass produced is cloning via foundry /3d printing via an original sample and blueprint setup of the sample 

now to start the creation of a warframe via the sacrifice , via the device (vitruvian) ballas left states that an individual is infected and then slowly becomes a "frame" by the infection altering the hosts body. 

figures above show the process of host target transforming into a warframe via 3 stages, its possible stage 3 is a refined version using orokin technology on figure 2 to better enhance and bring its weaponized potential to maximum , it also should be noted their dress wear is refined into the bodies via these figures, the dress wear shown is similiar to the base suit of the tenno children from zariman 10-0 incident (via second dream acquisition) 

so to our current understanding the warframes are humans that are infected and reshaped into frames for combat , it was also stated by ballas within the second dream that they could not be controlled by the orokin as they rebelled and then were systematically locked away 

Quote

 

Ballas: "... but only just. Their skin blossomed into sword-steel. Their organs, interlinked with untold resilience. Yet their minds were free of the Infested madness. Or so we thought. We set them upon the battlefield, bio-drones under our command."

Ballas: "The Warframes... All of them... failures. Surprised? They turned on us, just as you did. And so we had no choice but to commit them to grave. This is all you know, Hunhow, but there is a hidden half, a secret, that lies within a place forbidden to you and your kind. I speak of the Void."

 

later (reference Rhino P codex) an incident took place in which an unconscious tenno hijacked the mind/body of a escaped/rampaging frame and after doing so became a usable weapon for orokin purposes leading to the frame + tenno bonding and compatibility linking. I belive that tenno when unconsciouse default to take away memories , or suppress them , making warframes usable for orokin needs 

Quote

 

Ballas: "--We had created monsters we couldn't control. We drugged them, tortured them, eviscerated them... We brutalized their minds... but it did not work. Until they came."

Ballas: "And it was not their force of will - not their Void devilry - not their alien darkness... it was something else."

Ballas: "It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing--"

Ballas: "And take away its pain."

Ballas: "Before the vain faith - our people held Dualism as truth. That all things were of two parts. Mind and body. Consciousness and matter. Of our world... and the Void. It was from there that our answer finally came."

Ballas: "Distorted by vague horrors, we kept the Zariman survivors within a secret Reservoir. They were the missing half. Transference-linked: the Warframes, the body - and they, the mind. I give you now the coordinates and codes to this place. But do not underestimate these devils, Hunhow. They did what we could not. We had created monsters we couldn't--"

 

given the frames were partnered to specific tenno at this time via the compatibility  the orokin then devised ways to mass produce (foundry like systems) of the original frames (primes), and to then create reduced cost version with close to similar combat use, but reduced materials and orokin technology integration , this would lead to the standard variant creation as an economic mass produce (altered clone) models aka the vanilla frames

so to this point the warframes are direct clones of a prime , but altering or refining the frames possibly posed a challenge . this lead them to look into alternative development of newer strain/altered capabilities of the  current frames okokins had to work with. leading , I believe, to the creation of the umbra strain , which I will call the sentient slayer strain, further in this hypothesis 

Sentient Slayer Strain : re-engineering warframes for enhanced capabilities against sentients

 now at this point orokin are in combat and have warframes to battle the sentient and can mass produce bodies for tenno to use as drone fighters against the sentient (old war) , further developing this effective weapon to negate adaption of sentients and deal extra damage to sentients with resistance to their damage is a logical tactical step, refine and improve what works 

so given under the premises that warframes can be cloned successfully and prior had minds of their own (until tenno did a sort of mental lobotomy/ mental alteration of them unconsciously it seems), it would seem the orokin were not successful at further altering the genetics of clones .

this then lead to the orokin exploring another strain that targets new hosts to become like current frames I.E. a variant of current frame standard that is capable of using the new sentient targeted buffs/debuffs in combat for further improved combat effectiveness.

to what can be rationally concluded of ballas's involvement was to keep up the front (as hes a double agent) and did not expect this variant to work/bear fruit , and saw it as a way to experiment possibly on people who worked against him or figured out he was a double agent like dax (umbra) did . for now we will focus on the how this strain was accomplished.

Re-engineered strain variant:

to start it would seem they would have used an Excalibur Prime source DNA as the basis, given that was the 1st frame and probably the most stable/known base genetics to work with

(as the stats of the umbra are on par, please note this is for lore reasoning and not discussing IRL changyou reasons)

now after taking the Excalibur prime DNA the orokin tweaked it to have the sentient slayer traits (de-buff adaption, extra damage to sentients, resistance to sentience damage ect), its then likely using an altered helmith strains a agent to infect a target , using the altered DNA of the Excalibur strain as the injection DNA to alter a host to become an excalibur with the sentient slayer traits

Now if you unfamiliar with how viruses work here is a quick example to explain it

using viruses to introduce DNA (altered) into hosts as a form of gene therapy is not unheard of , and given orokins knowledge/technology/space magic /void??, its not unlikely that they could develop this means of implanting altered dna into target subjects to create the new variant line . please, recall orokin seems to have no issues treading on human rights/experimentation/ect for their goals.

 At this point, the sentient slayer strain is explained in its creation/conception , and injection into hosts to alter them . however now lets explain how compatible lines of genetics are the next requirement for this to work.

SUBJECT 9:

now in this figure (provided by umbra sacrifice teaser) we learned that  excalibur umbra as a dax is seemingly labeled as SUBJECT 9, and had a transference bolt implanted in him. Ballas: "(Transference) Oh, this... I've had them fit you with a Transference bolt. In honor of our history together."

we also learn during the quest that ballas wanted a burning memory to lock the mind of the dax  to give him his own mind while as a warframe even under tenno control(this kinda backfires....as it reverted umbras back to prior stage 1 frames who could not be controlled, more then likely ballas plan to get the experiment closed and never looked into again ) I also harbor that the memory of his son being killed is altered/implanted but thats a discussion for another time 

Now that we understand ballas is evil/manipulative... lets move onto the next concept

lineage DNA : what do I mean by this ? well given dax were family lines and share ancestral DNA , a lineage. we can surmise that some dax are distantly related to each other, over vast lineages and time.

the problem with the sentient slayer strain is lineage DNA compatibility of its targeted Host , I believe that a host of this strain must be genetically similar/compatible with the introduced altered frame dna they are injected with.

 in SUBJECT 9's case they seemed to use the orokin medical apparatus as a injection agent , given (figure below) the liquids in the bags look eerily like infested liquids so I believe its a fair rationalization also given bags drain per dream state and each dream sate the umbra frame changes become more and more prominent 

Quote

 

Ballas: "I'm afraid the disease has taken your voice, but we've prepared the finest serums to treat you.

Ballas: "(Transference) But you won't have to imagine. A lovingly cultured Infestation swarms within your blood. Your transformation has begun, reshaping you into a sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno... A Warframe with but a Single. Burning. Memory. It is... a miracle!"

 

now this bring us to the lineage of Excalibur Umbra, I believe that dax (umbra) was either a direct relative/descendant or distant living relative. further ballas states about his agenda to use dax (umbras) lineage to umbra and later in the vitruvian 

Quote

 

Ballas: "(Transference) He will, and his children will. You see... these are the stakes of this little game. Each stone I capture will be another and another and another... culled from your subversive bloodline."

Ballas: "(Transference) This one, a brother. These three, his children. And on and on, all of these done to the Jade Light."

 

I believe Ballas not only was eliminating his line for "personal reasons" but for tactical reasons.

 if dax(umbra) could become a sentient slayer type, possibly so could his lineage be made into them if the project ever restarted , and become successful at countering sentient , which would go against ballas endgame of siding with sentient (he has many plans and its a webs of strings) 

  in conclusion if dax or living humans exist that are related to the prime warframe (originators) its possible using Excalibur umbra's strain as s bridge/blueprint more could be developed with successful results and new umbra variants could be made

 

 

 

Implementation concepts

Spoiler

 

Implementation A:  (might be logical but still kind of dark) 

using umbra as a bridge (via above hypothesis ) to redesign the sentient slayer strain , possibly converting people (humans) closely related to certain warframes  into umbras who are in bad positions and willingly do it to help the tenno , giving them a second chance and a stronger body to do so. and help save the people of the origin system

Implementation B: 

using above remade sentient slayer strain + helmith to infect Vannila frames and convert them into umbra type variants with slightly different stats to primes , and a sentient debuff power.  also possibly an umbra weapon or mod set  like excalibur umbra and his sword 

this method is easiest to implement , dosnt require lore, and allows for users to build their own frames at their own pace (NO RNG other then the parts to gather for normal frame) 

Implementation C: 

using what we know from Deimos lore, of the void ,and duviri , create alternative timeline bounties in duviri that player can play and or earn umbra variant blueprints to craft umbra variants. (RNG, adds another function to void, duviri ) this method is not lore based, but could be seen as rng grind-fest and would possibly cause problems  

 

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako
fix wording

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

anyone else ponder that signature weapons are supposed to have unique buffs yet skijiati hasnt got one with excalibur umbra ..?

like maybe a 2 sec duration buf over normal or something would seem appropriate 

 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

anyone else ponder that signature weapons are supposed to have unique buffs yet skijiati hasnt got one with excalibur umbra ..?

like maybe a 2 sec duration buf over normal or something would seem appropriate 

 

Maybe when they decide to give all other signatures that don't have buffs a buff for the Warframe

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Maybe when they decide to give all other signatures that don't have buffs a buff for the Warframe

they did recently iirc give various ones small tweaks , not major but little buffs

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

Back to this topic but after being removed from it for a while and replaying the quests, a few things popped back into my mind:

Umbra is a character not a class of warframe though, The Sacrifice highlights that point. He's the only warframe in our inventory that cannot be deleted. 

The only way that more can exist is if it's directly from his bloodline. The game of komi does implicate that he has multiple children but how many? So it does leave it open for more to be added but:

Umbral Forma exists and with that any Warframe can "become" an Umbra frame. Add in the Hemlinth system. So are more Umbral Warframes even necessary anymore? 

But the other thing that I keep thinking about is his son Eza: What if The Stalker and the Acolytes are Umbras children? Ballas could have turned them all into warframes. 

As much as most want to deny this claim due to the codex, I feel it still fits. What's is his son's rank? Is he a "low guardian"? The timeline of the lore is kinda scattered all over the place. So I still don't discount the theory that Stalker is indeed Umbras son.

The Acolytes are comprised of Male and Female frames. And during The Sacrifice Quest,Ballas indicates to you that Umbra has sons and daughters.

Stalker is virtually identical. You remove the Scarf, change the helmet and change the loincloth they are virtually the same warframe. 

 Stalker hates warframes, what if his only memory is of his Father attacking him. It goes to black implying that Umbra kills his son, but the very same transformation could have taken place to all of his children. 

How was the Stalker lead to Hunhow? Considering we now know Ballas went to Hunhow by the Virturvian it's very possible Ballas pointed him in that direction.

That's what I think, that the Stalker faction is the children of Umbra, who've all been turned to Warframes who now hunt there own kind and just like Umbra(before he met us) have no Operator at the controls 

Edited October 20, 2021 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[SneakyErvin]

30 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Back to this topic but after being removed from it for a while and replaying the quests, a few things popped back into my mind:

Umbra is a character not a class of warframe though, The Sacrifice highlights that point. He's the only warframe in our inventory that cannot be deleted. 

The only way that more can exist is if it's directly from his bloodline. The game of komi does implicate that he has multiple children but how many? So it does leave it open for more to be added but:

Umbral Forma exists and with that any Warframe can "become" an Umbra frame. Add in the Hemlinth system. So are more Umbral Warframes even necessary anymore? 

But the other thing that I keep thinking about is his son Eza: What if The Stalker and the Acolytes are Umbras children? Ballas could have turned them all into warframes. 

As much as most want to deny this claim due to the codex, I feel it still fits. What's is his son's rank? Is he a "low guardian"? The timeline of the lore is kinda scattered all over the place. So I still don't discount the theory that Stalker is indeed Umbras son.

The Acolytes are comprised of Male and Female frames. And during The Sacrifice Quest,Ballas indicates to you that Umbra has sons and daughters.

Stalker is virtually identical. You remove the Scarf, change the helmet and change the loincloth they are virtually the same warframe. 

 Stalker hates warframes, what if his only memory is of his Father attacking him. It goes to black implying that Umbra kills his son, but the very same transformation could have taken place to all of his children. 

How was the Stalker lead to Hunhow? Considering we now know Ballas went to Hunhow by the Virturvian it's very possible Ballas pointed him in that direction.

That's what I think, that the Stalker faction is the children of Umbra, who've all been turned to Warframes who now hunt there own kind and just like Umbra(before he met us) have no Operator at the controls 

Chances are more that Stalker and the Acolytes are actually some of the very first frames, a group of them that never turned on the Orokin, so got promoted into these "low guardians" for the empire, instead of being experimented on and having a tenno control them. We know Stalker hates other frames because of what happened at the end of the war during the victory celebrations, he is a witness of that betrayal.

Umbra is a fluke, he isnt ment to be sentient, he is only ment to have a burning memory left, which is him killing his son. So the chance for Stalker and the Acolytes being related to Umbra is extremely small. Not only because Ballas would have to fail the exact same way several times over, but also because he would have to successfully, through some odd miracle in his failures, manage to not have those subjects turn on him like Umbra. And after everything his son witnessed with Umbra, I'd bet he wouldnt be all pink clouds and unicorns if he went through the same thing (incase his father never killed him to begin with).

As for the rank of the son, he is a Dax soldier, that is all we know.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Chances are more that Stalker and the Acolytes are actually some of the very first frames, a group of them that never turned on the Orokin, so got promoted into these "low guardians" for the empire, instead of being experimented on and having a tenno control them. We know Stalker hates other frames because of what happened at the end of the war during the victory celebrations, he is a witness of that betrayal.

Umbra is a fluke, he isnt ment to be sentient, he is only ment to have a burning memory left, which is him killing his son. So the chance for Stalker and the Acolytes being related to Umbra is extremely small. Not only because Ballas would have to fail the exact same way several times over, but also because he would have to successfully, through some odd miracle in his failures, manage to not have those subjects turn on him like Umbra. And after everything his son witnessed with Umbra, I'd bet he wouldnt be all pink clouds and unicorns if he went through the same thing (incase his father never killed him to begin with).

As for the rank of the son, he is a Dax soldier, that is all we know.

I understand what your saying but here's where it can get screwy and it's something I've thought about in regards to that too:

The beginning of The Sacrifice. You see Umbra get destroyed by Ballas and Natah. So when in the timeline does this take place exactly? It can't be after The Lotus leaves with Ballas in the Apostacy Prologue, right? So it has to be before Natah becomes The Lotus.

To protect her mission, to infiltrate Orokin Leadership (because she leads the Tenno in the Old War) and take out the Orokin Leadership, which ultimately happens. 

Natah is basically a Sentient Trogan Horse. From the sounds of it: This hasn't happened yet.

Umbra goes through everything because he figured out Ballas plan to betray the Orokin when he went to Hunhow. 

So with that in mind: Where are we at The Old War? They talk about Umbras actions at a Sentient Battle at Hall. It appears to me that the Old War is still ongoing during Umbras transformation.

Because Ballas then asks his son if he will follow is Father's path, after he says "Ofocourse" Ballas talks through Transferrance to Umbra and says:

"He will, and his Children will. You see, these are the stakes in this little game. Each stone I capture will be another and another culled from your subversive Bloodline. You think you can out-play me?"

"I've had lifetimes to plan my defection, you spied on me and intercepted my communication, but I saw your move long before you took it. And so we come to the consequences.

Ballas is responsible for the warframe program so he did have a hand in The Stalker and the Acolytes creation. 

So they could be both: Early Warframes culled from Umbras Bloodline who Ballas attaches to the Orokin for protection. 

Who are comprised of Umbras children who could potentially be all "low guardian" ranks within the Dax.

And placed in the right place to kill The Tenno after they completed the assassinations of the Orokin Emperrors. Where they failed to not only protect, but to kill the Tenno. 

Which is why they hunt us. 

Hell Ballas could even have his own "Tenno" who's he's manipulated to do this, who don't remember what they really are (TSD). Which would also explain how The Stalker and Umbra are extremely similar. 

They could be the other "Subjects" that are referred to in early Sacrifice teases which reference this. This would make The Stalker and Acolytes all "Umbra" warframes

The whole thing is a red herring and part of Ballas plan.

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I understand what your saying but here's where it can get screwy and it's something I've thought about in regards to that too:

The beginning of The Sacrifice. You see Umbra get destroyed by Ballas and Natah. So when in the timeline does this take place exactly? It can't be after The Lotus leaves with Ballas in the Apostacy Prologue, right? So it has to be before Natah becomes The Lotus.

To protect her mission, to infiltrate Orokin Leadership (because she leads the Tenno in the Old War) and take out the Orokin Leadership, which ultimately happens. 

Natah is basically a Sentient Trogan Horse. From the sounds of it: This hasn't happened yet.

Umbra goes through everything because he figured out Ballas plan to betray the Orokin when he went to Hunhow. 

So with that in mind: Where are we at The Old War? They talk about Umbras actions at a Sentient Battle at Hall. It appears to me that the Old War is still ongoing during Umbras transformation.

Because Ballas then asks his son if he will follow is Father's path, after he says "Ofocourse" Ballas talks through Transferrance to Umbra and says:

"He will, and his Children will. You see, these are the stakes in this little game. Each stone I capture will be another and another culled from your subversive Bloodline. You think you can out-play me?"

"I've had lifetimes to plan my defection, you spied on me and intercepted my communication, but I saw your move long before you took it. And so we come to the consequences.

Ballas is responsible for the warframe program so he did have a hand in The Stalker and the Acolytes creation. 

So they could be both: Early Warframes culled from Umbras Bloodline who Ballas attaches to the Orokin for protection. 

Who are comprised of Umbras children who could potentially be all "low guardian" ranks within the Dax.

And placed in the right place to kill The Tenno after they completed the assassinations of the Orokin Emperrors. Where they failed to not only protect, but to kill the Tenno. 

Which is why they hunt us. 

Hell Ballas could even have his own "Tenno" who's he's manipulated to do this, who don't remember what they really are (TSD). Which would also explain how The Stalker and Umbra are extremely similar. 

They could be the other "Subjects" that are referred to in early Sacrifice teases which reference this. This would make The Stalker and Acolytes all "Umbra" warframes

The whole thing is a red herring and part of Ballas plan.

 

Well the timeline is a bit odd. The early frames prior to Umbra cant be his kin, because Ballas doesnt sell out the Orokin until after Margulis is dead and the tenno are "part of" the Warframes. So when the early Warframes are created the person that becomes Umbra has not yet uncovered any secrets that Ballas has with Hunhow since Ballas hasnt sold out the Orokin yet. Plus Umbra is also fitted with a transference bolt, which is a post tenno thing in the frames, this specific one seems to have been designed not only to leave a memory inside the frame, but also to allow Ballas to control it (though that can be questioned, he might simply have a pet tenno to do it). So that indicates a "newer" model.

And since Stalker seems unaware of the tenno I dont think he is controlled. And we know so far that the tenno were hidden in one reservoir aswell. Although, Stalker and his friends may have been covert tenno, specifically hidden by Ballas elsewhere and lost to a dream aswell where tenno/frame have no defining lines that seperate them. Where memories of what they were is all gone and they remember themselves only as frames and not tenno. Which would explain why they think other frames are just frames aswell.

The big question is still when Umbra is made. It would be great if we could know when Battle of Hull happened for instance, since it was after that atleast. And if that battle was pre- or post the invention of warframes.