Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

[(PSN)TertulSee]

This might spiral out of control. Saryn is already good. In fact, removing the Molt spam encourages even more AFK because you can just press 1 then press 1 again to spread the Spores, then press 1 again, etc. This removes the need of her Molt and being active at all.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

4 hours ago, Souldend78 said:

Watch the Corrupted Corpus enemies that where not yet in LoS, already infected as she walks the hallway.

 

He was not infected. This is proven because the spore stack counter wasn't active. Watch the first enemy she casts spore onto, which she tried to spread to enemies no more than 5m away from her or the infected enemy, but they weren't infected because the wall blocked their spread.

I believe spore will now need line of sight.

If you can answer this question DE, please do. 

Thank you

Edited May 13, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Luzzu]

I don't get too involved with frames since I feel like most of them don't have too high of a skill ceiling, but Saryn was one I both respected and understood as a frame and a way to play the game.

 

When I thought of ideal frames to model for balance and skill level, I looked at Saryn because you could play her decently with little to no knowledge of her but should one master her play style, it paid off immediately. Right build, right stats, right play style, and in the right hands, she could become a tool of total destruction and it always felt rewarding. I think these changes to her are completely unnecessary, and instead of changing Saryn, other frames should have been changed to meet the bar that Saryn had set for them.

 

I'm normally supportive of the changes you guys decide to make, but this is not one I can agree with. Saryn was difficult to truly learn and master, yet it paid off for those who took the time to learn how to play her. This is how I feel every frame in Warframe should be. Instead of Saryn, why not look at Nyx who has been getting out-classed over and over again by every new frame released, progressively becoming more and more useless the longer we wait for her inevitable rework? Saryn was the closest to perfect balance that Warframe saw and to see her being changed so drastically is genuinely disappointing.

 

It's almost like no one is playing her or any of the other frames who need this rework instead of Saryn. Seriously disappointed.

[Shadedraxe]

9 hours ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

Just curious, how will the new Toxic Lash work with dual wielding?

 

Likely both weapons gain the toxic lash benefit, however melee attacks gain double the boost.

[lonelytango]

@[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Pablo

Regarding to Saryn's upcoming rework this is a must-read message, i am Lonelytango, PC tenno and a small WF contect creator in youtube from Hong Kong, one of Chinese speaking region of warframe Asian communities. First thing first, i am happy that you are paying appropriate attention on Saryn for the future more balanced and simple gaming experience on this warframe.

About Saryn, there is an very important and famous play-style in Chinese community that we called 'compressed toxin spread' style. For more detail about this please check out the thread here:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/955427-【warframe】on-saryn-skills-modification-chinese-district-players-response/

this thread is from CTS creator Saliair who authorized me to shout out our opinion in this regard. 

THIS IS NOT A BUG-BASED PLAYSTYLE and so far as i know, it has not been a universal play style in other regional severs and there is few people talk about it as well. You are able to check out one of my youtube content too but it's only Chinese version i have to apologize. 

LINK:
https://youtu.be/qiHxtK425Go

I would like to simply explain this in an easy manner, just for your brief understanding how this works:

THIS IS NOT A press '2-1-REST' (we all log-in for game play not press-1-button-to-win, we hate it) Saryn style as we seldom use molt and of cuz we dont need to spam 1 (spore) as well. 

1,Basically we put a spore on one enemy, attack the enemy (rather than the spore direct with high status (specifically gas in this case) and high damage based weapon (it doesnt matter the weapon is primary/secondary/melee);

2, Gas triggered and the spore exploded by toxic damage (from gas) and spread the compressed huge amount of damage to surrounding enemies. Thats the reason why spore on enemy was avoided to be hit directly, our purpose is to trigger the spore explosion by gas damage.By applying a proper weapon based on the mentioned 2 criteria, we can max the damage to a big enough range of enemies (10k-ish is common in most cases) and of cuz it would be reduced by armorred enemies.

Again this is not BUG, it's the mechanism observed by our own creation and intelligence based on the current Saryn. All damage/chance is predictable and can be calculated by us by taking into account of various weapons (base damage, crit chance/multiplier/ gas-triggered chance, headshot multiplier etc.)

Isnt this an amazing mechanism existing in game so far? It legitimately offers players for creativity, and tgt it brings warframe ability & weapon synergy in a perfect manner, i.e. we spend time on kuva farming only for a Vulkar Wraith riven with status chance, toxic dmg + negative impact damage for increasing gas trigger chance. It may be a bit complicated and difficult (esp for new players) but it did provide excellent gaming experience on Saryn. 

[DE]Pablo i personal am 100% appreciate on your work on the frame, Saryn's rework is always welcome but we dont think its proper to simply just eliminate the spore-toxin-spread mechanism, amend it probably ceiling on damage will be taken into account? Hope you would read my reply.

Cheers
 

Edited May 13, 2018 by lonelytango

[vinx909]

not too sure about the spores rework. no longer being able to cast it on mold removes the option to start the sickness while in a bit of safety or without knowing where the enemy is. and indefinite duration and scaling sounds cool, but would run into problems with mission types where you have to clear the map of enemies before the next wave begins (defence, interception). i think i prefer the current spores over what's proposed here.

[Automata]

Hello fellow Tenno,

My biggest pet peeve with saryn was finding out that Toxic Lash doesn’t mitigate damage but does reduce it while blocking. Melee weapons already have innate damage block percentile and as such I believe having it on Toxic Lash is both redundant and counter intuitive as it promotes passive gameplay. Could this effect be changed to let’s say a base 40% self damage reduction/mitigation(kind of like Trinity’s Blessing) with the ability to scale up to 70%@150% pwr str or armour? I’d be fine with increased power cost and Toxic Lash switched to 4th ability and Miasma to 3rd.

[Soulden]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

This is proven because the spore stack counter wasn't active. Watch the first enemy she casts spore onto, which she tried to spread to enemies no more than 5m away from her or the infected enemy, but they weren't infected because the wall blocked their spread.

I said enemies, as more than 1, you counted only the first one that obviously didnt had spores. So why would I tell you to look for that one?
Watch as she jumps forward at 20:20 to 20:22 she turns around there it is, 2 corrupted corpus enemies (up the steps) already infected that were out of LoS.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Souldend78

[Soulden]

On 2018-05-12 at 5:59 AM, (PS4)xSweep66 said:

She's not even going to support her team in any meaningful way outside of armor stripping (which is covered by other frames as well as CP). At least old Saryn has access to Viral, which is helpful for the entire team against any faction and doesn't overlap with other frames or team compositions.

This is the only thing I got issues as well, there is tons of ways to strip armor already, no other health debuffing warframe abilities.

The only thing I'm currently looking forward to, is long runs, if the counter and recasting of Spores double dmg works like Equinox's Maim, it could make for a pretty overwhelming buff, for such low cost ability.

[IfritKajiTora]

On 2018-05-10 at 8:00 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

It is with great excitement I come to you today with this Dev Workshop covering Saryn’s 2018 rework.

 

SARYN - still should be the master of toxins, so she should be able to use all toxin type status and damage (Toxin, Gas, Viral and Corrosive).

1.SPORES:
-each Spore have 30% chance to inflict corrosive status per second.
-Spores don't boost their damage by them self.
-Spores damage can be boosted by applying to them toxins and gas damage type (damage applied from guns are reduced by 90% [or even more, need tests]).
-Spore duration 45 seconds, so you can't boost spores infinitely.
-After duration ends, spores detonate dealing 10x damage they have gathered from toxins and gas.

2.MOLT:
-Molt when detonated deals gas damage and have 100% chance to inflict gas status, that add to spores.
 

3.TOXIC LASH:
-Add toxin damage to weapons that adds to spores.

4.MIASMA:
-100% chance to inflict viral status on enemies.
-Detonates all spores dealing 10x damage.
-Deals 2x and 3x more damage on every enemy affected by gas and toxin status, boosting SPORES damage too
                                     one status (gas or toxin)  = 2x Miasma damage+20x spores damage 
                                     two status (gas and toxin) = 3x Miasma damage+30x spores damage

How this will work all together:
-Saryn now get benefits from Power duration. If you wan't to build her damage longer and stronger you need duration.
-You can boost spores damage by using Molt and Toxic Lash.
-In the duration of spores you need to inflict the gas and toxin damage as fast as possible to build into the spores a massive damage.
-To make the most of damage/DPS you need to build your spores damage and then cast Miasma when spores duration is ending, making the build damage
-If players don't control situation and forget about spores duration, they will detonate inflicting 10x damage.
-If player control the situation, player will use Miasma before spores duration ends to double or even triple the gathered damage in spores.

Player need to work for the dps/damage he makes.

Edited May 13, 2018 by IfritKajiTora

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

36 minutes ago, Souldend78 said:

This is the only thing I got issues as well, there is tons of ways to strip armor already, no other health debuffing warframe abilities.

The only thing I'm currently looking forward to, is long runs, if the counter and recasting of Spores double dmg works like Equinox's Maim, it could make for a pretty overwhelming buff, for such low cost ability.

most of player do star chart and sorties, so dont see any longer runs than 40min. older player do end game 3h+. and you will kill enemy for spores to spread, not to pop spores as it is atm. and for most players i am not so sure they will wait for dmg to stack. so only usuaful will be surv mission, def not so much for example. as spores are atm you can go in any type of mission and no waiting for dmg to stuck up. so new sprores (t-shirt are gone spam) i do not like it as mechanic. sarin is dps frame, and was reworked already her 4th was killer and they changed her becaouse of it, so they kind nerf it and back to origilnal again. back to square 1. spores are fine as it is atm i do not see why ppl are confused. but they need to explain abilities a bit. they can place legend and dots definitions. so ability with dots would present  what affect abity, mods on weapon or mods on wf. only reason of rework was spam in new game elite mod since 4th ability was limited in global.

[Ryim_Drykeon]

On 2018-05-10 at 2:00 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

• • Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick.

Why?

Why the heck would anyone think this would be a good idea, let alone a needed one?

Detonate Spores for 2x damage? Just let them continue to tick and deal even more damage. This aspect only hampers Saryn in spreading her Spores around, and penalizes players that may happen to double-click their 1 button.

Oh right, it was said in the stream that this would allow a player to pop Spores on enemies left behind.......because we wouldn't want to keep killing enemies with DoT........

Aside from this mess of an idea, I think the rest of the changes will do good. Though if Infinite Duration and Infinite Scaling on Spores needs to be tweaked back after release due to game balance, then returning to the current Spore/Miasma would probably be better than nerfing the proposed setup.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Ryim_Drykeon

[CrudShuzKong]

20 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

They are removing this feature of the ability. Probably my only gripe with this whole rework, as that would actually help these new additional features. That and Venom Dose being changed to corrosive

The synergy between transferring Toxin on enemies that are slowly being stripped off their armor would have been too amazing 😞

[ljmadruga]

With regards to the changes as a whole, I like what I see. However, I think they need to be tuned a bit in certain areas.

Spores imo are a little too strong in this state. I’d suggest giving them a duration and having them detonate at the end of that duration. Refreshing toxic lash also refreshes the spore duration. Holding 1 to detonate the spores while tapping summons more.

Molt, as some have said, is a little underserved in this iteration. I get why the ability to put spores on Molt was removed, but I think it should have some utility purpose outside of being a distraction tool. I’d suggest having it act like a kickstart for spores. Putting spores on a molt should immediately detonate the molt and spread spores to surrounding enemies.

Toxic lash, in this state at least, will definitely need some sort of status chance thrown into it for the forced toxin proc due to the nature of certain weapons in the game. 20-30% should be more than enough. Aside from that, it’s going to be an excellent power.

Miasma’s changes sound brilliant, but I’ll need to actually see them in normal play before I give final judgment on that.

[(XBOX)SpicyChip205972]

hmmm interesting

 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

11 hours ago, Souldend78 said:

I said enemies, as more than 1, you counted only the first one that obviously didnt had spores. So why would I tell you to look for that one?
Watch as she jumps forward at 20:20 to 20:22 she turns around there it is, 2 corrupted corpus enemies (up the steps) already infected that were out of LoS.

That's because she recasted spores and started a new stack, but when she walked into the room, none of the enemies had spores on them. That section is a bad example to use.

Either way, I'm questioning the Line of Sight question because of this

She spreads the spores to one enemy standing close to the window. If there was no Line of Sight, her 145% range build would've spread to anyone within 23.2m of that enemy.
I had a friend go into a mission and do a range comparison. Thank you @--END--Rikutatis for the screenshots and tests

Going to where the enemies were, it seems that the rest of the enemies were only 13m away while the one guy that got infected was 10m. The entrance to this room was around 18m m. Her 145% range build should've spread spores 23.2m, so if there was no Line of Sight, then every enemy would've been infected by the first enemy, unless there was a range nerf.

So through the primetime, we can assume either a range was severely reduced or Line of Sight was removed, I'm going with the former.

EDIT: Going over some theories, I have 2 theories. A, range was cut in half. This would be a severe change that should've been mentioned here in the Workshop notes, and leaving it out raises suspicions even though I trust DE. Second theory is that range is only half of that for everything not Line-of-Sight. Either way, it doesn't appear that spores is completely changed to Line-of-Sight requirements, but range is definitely changed without mention.

Edited May 13, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Revantis]

If the range of spores has been nerfed or its functioning on line of sight from saryns perspective and not the spores when they pop i seriously think they need to give her a little more of a defensive buff then bit of armor and the molt change. If she is being changed into more of a move in spore and deal damage with toxic lash frame, she needs toxic lash to give her some form of major armor increase or damage reduction like splinter storm or shatter shield. She will not be able to deal effective sustained damage with something like toxic lash in 80+ level missions like that, and the hunters adrenaline/Quick thinking setup is extremely suspect on her unless regenerative molts healing started scaling with power strength.

I suppose another option could be instead of the speed boost, give her around 4 to 5 seconds of stealth after molting, this will still leave her open to aoe damage and dieing with bad positioning but it will force the AI off of her no matter what and put it onto the molt.

I know most people are worried about spores, but tbh, i think the silent hero in all this is going to be toxic lash. If its as good as seen in the video she is going to wreck things with fast hitting weapons and toxin stacking.

Also to people who say what about Corrosive projection. I have always disliked this aura, i understand why its a thing, but if i were a developer i would be working towards removing these things and just making armor stripping way more common or revamping armor scaling in general. In the midst of all these changes coming, i wouldnt be shocked if CP is nerfed, changed, or completely removed at some point. If that happened saryn would probly be the best armor stripping frame in the game.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Revantis

[Soulden]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

So through the primetime, we can assume either a range was severely reduced or Line of Sight was removed, I'm going with the former.

Sadly I still do see spores working the same way as they do now, no LoS.  So im thinking it was the range that got nerfed, and by a lot. But just like everything, it can be pretty obvious, but open to interpretation until DE says otherwise.....right?

Either way it goes, still going to hurt. LoS requires open rooms, or cheezy camping. Lost of range is going to require straight up cheezy camping. And if that nerf to range is across the board.....rip trying to even consider the use Miasma for anything.

[andymous87]

my biggest concern was the removal of synergy with her molt and spores, but after watching the primetime that I missed, I don't feel to bad about it, unless they buff the aggro draw isn't buffed then the added survivability isn't so good, however the speed boost also makes up for it especially if it stacks when you shed molt multiple times or if not, I'm sure if paired with Dispatch Overdrive it'll do just fine

[biochronicle]

now your starting to catch on... maybe you should look at few more prototypes ;) Hint:needs more buster time.

 

"corrosive is the way of the future" Biochronicle 2018

[Daprosy]

The way Saryn's spores work currently is through spreading toxin procs that are applied with your weapon, and the confusing part is that if you 1 shot the enemy the toxin procs will not spread. Added confusion on top of this is a maximum number of spores can only be applied to a certain enemy, and this toxin value in the spore in not easily increased, hence enemies can get ''filled up'' with low damage spores.  

So with the newly proposed changes: ''In 2.0, we aim to take the guessing out of the “what does what with what to make X happen?” and ultimately make her more sensible and intuitive to play. ''

If you aim to take the guessing out can you please tell us how exactly the new spores will work? You did not once mention how spores will store damage or interact with toxin procs, and if damage is calculated in a similar way (toxin procs scaling with crits and headshots) the new saryn will be completely broken. Currently she can kill rooms of corrupted lv 100 enemies with a single shot from a lanka (with riven) modded for toxin. This is with toxin vs. armor (around 80% damage reduction), now you plan to change spores so they deal corrosive damage which will increase the toxin damage done vs armored enemies. And toxic lash in 2.0 will give guaranteed status, so now status is irrelevant when modding your weapon as any procs other than toxin will reduce your DPS if spores continue to store damage based off your toxin procs. I really do not understand this re work, Saryn could already nuke, but at least you had to set up your weapons and put a bit of thought into it. On top of all this ''Spores in its 2.0 form allows for more than 1 proc per second.''  Beam weapons can apply crazy amounts of status per second, what is the limit?

I cannot see Saryn's spores relationship with toxin procs to be the same with this re work, and this is where she gets her DPS. So how you can make a proposed re work thread and not even mention this is absurd. 

I like the changes to Molt especially getting rid of the spore spamming. I think her stagger with Miasma could be just slightly increased to help with its general use. 

The biggest issue with Saryn was her range, it was waaaay too big. You needed to reduce her range or at least give her some damage falloff with range.

Overall, not enough information at all to make any sort of informed decision on how Saryn will work. 

EDIT: Just watched the video, and it sounds like spores no longer carry toxin damage done via toxin procs. This has just ruined Saryn and my favorite frame as this is where she got her DPS and had such great SYNERGY with weapons and builds RIP Saryn unless you have the time to sit and wait for damage to scale up 😞

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Daprosy

[sehafoc]

TL;DR: The highlighted mechanic changes seem good.  Where I'm concerned is the spore propagation mechanics. Propagation range needs to be addressed too -- on the MOT test it looks super weak.  Seems like nerfing the proposed damage and having a more "contagious" spore would be better.  In short the whole keeping your spores up mechanic seems worse than the previous implementation.

Longer:
The mechanic changes that were mentioned seem good,  but there are several mechanics you didn't talk about.  Additionally the damage type conversions seem like a nerf.  Previously Saryn paired really well with other DPS frames in going into long duration missions because of the global (ie faction agnostic) defuf.  Granted having a corrosive based DPS frame will make the Graneer more tolerable at higher levels. That is HIGHLY contingent on you actually being able to keep spores on the masses

I applaud the changes to the play style. The ability to decorate Molt like a Christmas tree and have that be the main game play is boring as heck.  Honestly just having the single Spore cast fixes that by itself.  Also, it seems like if you just changed the amount of Spores that propagate to a higher value, and remove the ability to cast them on Molt you would also achieve the goal of updating the play style.  The real problem with the frame is that without the Christmas tree play that spores don't propagate enough thus it's one of the few ways to get that initial coating of spores before you can really go off.  Though I'm glad that they spread on kill now to partially address that.  but it looks like they have no range in the test... which will make them less useful in many cases......  

In conclusion, please don't nerf the spore propagation mechanics to have them make more damage,  it will make the frame way less consistent to play and less enjoyable.  I don't wanna feel like I'm juggling to make sure I hit the right enemies and those enemies are close enough to other enemies to keep these things up.  

Other than that it seems good.

Edited May 13, 2018 by sehafoc
edited for clarity

[Tyloo17]

Looks really solid. I'm having something of a hard time understanding some of these changes, so I'm going to outline potential issues based on my understanding:

My only issues are the removal of the energy on spore detonation from toxin lash and whether or not toxin lash will spread it's toxin proc to nearby enemies.

My Saryn playstyle - and I think the playstyle of many - is melee, which means relying on lifestrike and regenerating molt as well as making use of toxin lash and spores to deal mass AoE around me. So please, don't remove this synergy at the very least.

[Maffer113]

Spin2 win dealated ... ;C

Edited May 14, 2018 by Maffer113

[_Nobody_]

Revisit Nyx.