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Nyx & Titania Dev Workshop

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On 2018-12-14 at 2:50 AM, GideonWilhelm said:

I get that people want to give Titania some more power but this would remove her CC.  Stop.  The pixie, the pixie guns, and the fact that she's a CC monster are the things I, and many others, love about her.

All we need is for her lantern to be able to be firmly rooted in place somehow, her Tribute to be worth using (as it stands now, throw the whole thing away, just take it out of her kit and make her 2 do nothing and that'd be better than what it is now because at least I won't run the risk of using it by accident), and her Razorflies to have some survivability themselves without having to leave Razorwing.  Have Pablo take a look at her for some synergies beyond that.

I see your point, but don't forget, that CC is kind-of dead now. DE killed it over the years. You can use it for making starchart noise, but all the rewarding, worth to play missions other than Sorties require either high peak damage or some area of effect damage. Nowadays the key is DPS.

- Eidolons with CC? Still the most rewarding mission for focus and arcanes. Also the most fun if you don't time-stress it, in my opinion.
- ESO? While you try to CC it, already run out of efficiency.
- Arbitrations? With the shield drones... only solutions to kill them as fast as possible.
- Even higher relic missions is hard to CC with a lot of Ancients and Nullifiers
- I wonder if the new Orb thingy mission will involve serious CC to play when it comes to actual fight stage.

So CC is not as good as maybe it was many years ago and you can mostly use it for missions where you don't really need CC anyway. Obviously there are a couple of exceptions but the general rule stands I think.

 

Edited by Stellatarum
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2 hours ago, Stellatarum said:

I see your point, but don't forget, that CC is kind-of dead now. DE killed it over the years. You can use it for making starchart noise, but all the rewarding, worth to play missions other than Sorties require either high peak damage or some area of effect damage. Nowadays the key is DPS.

- Eidolons with CC? Still the most rewarding mission for focus and arcanes. Also the most fun if you don't time-stress it, in my opinion.
- ESO? While you try to CC it, already run out of efficiency.
- Arbitrations? With the shield drones... only solutions to kill them as fast as possible.
- Even higher relic missions is hard to CC with a lot of Ancients and Nullifiers
- I wonder if the new Orb thingy mission will involve serious CC to play when it comes to actual fight stage.

So CC is not as good as maybe it was many years ago and you can mostly use it for missions where you don't really need CC anyway. Obviously there are a couple of exceptions but the general rule stands I think.

Not every frame has to be amazing on every node.  I can lantern and drop a zenistar and make a damn good killbox in survival.

By your logic, in order for every frame to be equally viable, they'd all have to be either Saryn, Volt, or Banshee.  I mean, they have the best AoE damage and can kill the most stuff at once, so we gotta make sure every warframe can do the same or they all suck.

But seriously, just look at Lifeof Rio, the Zarr is low-viable tier and it's practically his signiature weapon that carries him through six- to eight-hour survivals.  And he also mains scaling tank/CC/buff frames, and his main issue with Titania is the fact that her lanterns can't be fixed in place, because being able to make enemies cease shooting and gather in one place to be blown up with AoE weapons is a MASSIVE benefit in Survival.

Just because you want Titania to function a specific way in your favorite content doesn't mean she should have her entire playstyle torn down and rebuilt into an entirely different role.

Edit: making her Dex Pixia deal damage to nullifier drones and bubbles in arbitrations instead of "LOL IT'S A WARFRAME ABILITY GUESS YOU GOTTA GIVE UP YOUR SURVIVABILITY TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING" would be pretty fantastic, tho

Edited by GideonWilhelm
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2 hours ago, GideonWilhelm said:

Not every frame has to be amazing on every node.  I can lantern and drop a zenistar and make a damn good killbox in survival.

By your logic, in order for every frame to be equally viable, they'd all have to be either Saryn, Volt, or Banshee.  I mean, they have the best AoE damage and can kill the most stuff at once, so we gotta make sure every warframe can do the same or they all suck.

But seriously, just look at Lifeof Rio, the Zarr is low-viable tier and it's practically his signiature weapon that carries him through six- to eight-hour survivals.  And he also mains scaling tank/CC/buff frames, and his main issue with Titania is the fact that her lanterns can't be fixed in place, because being able to make enemies cease shooting and gather in one place to be blown up with AoE weapons is a MASSIVE benefit in Survival.

Just because you want Titania to function a specific way in your favorite content doesn't mean she should have her entire playstyle torn down and rebuilt into an entirely different role.

Edit: making her Dex Pixia deal damage to nullifier drones and bubbles in arbitrations instead of "LOL IT'S A WARFRAME ABILITY GUESS YOU GOTTA GIVE UP YOUR SURVIVABILITY TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING" would be pretty fantastic, tho

Well, you're right. Maybe my lack of practice...
I use Titania regularly, even in Sortie rescues. My main concern is her survivability and a lot of things in mission that force you to quit Razorwing.
Allowing interactions and adding some "tankiness" and the possibility to refresh Razorflies would solve a lot of problems.
Anyway, thanx for reading my thoughts ;)

 

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2 hours ago, GideonWilhelm said:

Edit: making her Dex Pixia deal damage to nullifier drones and bubbles in arbitrations instead of "LOL IT'S A WARFRAME ABILITY GUESS YOU GOTTA GIVE UP YOUR SURVIVABILITY TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING" would be pretty fantastic, tho

that would be fair to all exalted weapons frames - I dropped arbitrations altogether due to this idiocy

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Without real synergies between the abilities the rework would be a failure. A bit better than the current state but still a failure and a missed opportunity.

For titania 1-3 abilities should work inside her affinity radius, forget thorns at all: proved many times that its useless even in concept. Get her survivability and immortal razorwings.

If not immortal razorwings then they should  automaticaly respawn 1 or 2 sec  and give her damage reduction.

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I've been playing a bit of Nyx and I think she is awesome.

Here's some of my suggestions for Nyx.

Mind Control.  No longer have a duration but lasts as long as the target is alive.  The target instantly dies after the effect has been removed on purpose but will have a cooldown before it can be casted again unless killed by enemies(or still keep the duration but have like half of the duration's cooldown) as to prevent spamming the ability to kill enemies one by one.  Also holding down the button will boost the MC target's health shield/armor/health and also damage instead of shooting them since it sounds a bit awkward for a psychic themed Warframe  to be reliant on guns for her abilities to work.  IDK. 😜

Psychic Bolts.  Since it will become pure debuff why not also add a small scale knockdown to give it some telekinetic effect.  And it should have priority targets.

Chaos.  I don't have much aside from giving it a better visual effect.  I guess something like Garuda where a symbol will show above affected enemies and some particle effects on their head.

Absorb.  The fact that Nyx will reflect the damage type is awesome. Remove the additional energy per 1000 damage since it just seems it has been placed to limit the time she can absorb.  And make her total energy the duration of her absorb instead of making it damage+energy.  Maybe just add a multiplier for energy used while in absorb like every 10, 20, 30,... energy absorbs give her 10%, 20%, 30%,.. damage multiplier.  Was never good with Math.  😅

Edit:  PS.  Give her more evasion during chaos.  😀

Edited by RagingPavillion
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Il y a 13 heures, MasterMelkz a dit :

Anybody knows when this is coming to the game?

in fortuna 2

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Il y a 5 heures, GideonWilhelm a dit :

By your logic, in order for every frame to be equally viable, they'd all have to be either Saryn, Volt, or Banshee.  I mean, they have the best AoE damage and can kill the most stuff at once, so we gotta make sure every warframe can do the same or they all suck.

no. There are three established roles in the gaming industry: DPS, tank, support. 

Everything else is a combination of these roles.The controller class does not exist and cannot exist. All because control is needed either to protect or to kill, the third is not given. Titania is not a good frame for dps. Titania is not a good frame for support. The fact that she's a good controller (which is debatable) doesn't allow her to be a good DPS or support.

I'll tell you what, you can pick flowers on anything. But the smell is fried, you will immediately take them:

Il y a 5 heures, GideonWilhelm a dit :

Saryn, Volt, or Banshee.

 

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On 2018-11-28 at 8:20 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Nyx’s passive ability to make enemies miss will be deactivated when she is using Absorb, meaning no shot will be wasted!

But it will remain in full effect for Assimilate, yes?

While I can see that you'd want this for Absorb-as-a-nuke (though -given its current iteration- why you'd want that to begin with, idk), I think it's fair to say that if you're using Assimilate, you're using it purely as a defensive ability.
So as long as it retains the 'Damage taken costs energy' aspect, I want it to stay up as long as possible - if that's because enemies are missing, I'm fine with that too.  

Edit: Since I don't see Absorb/Assimilate becoming agnostic again, how about instead of 'damage costs energy', it becomes 'damage increases drain', or - possibly better - 'drain increases per enemy targetting (not attacking) Nyx' - which synergizes with Chaos as well.

Edited by Chroia

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vor 20 Stunden schrieb zhellon:

no. There are three established roles in the gaming industry: DPS, tank, support. 

Everything else is a combination of these roles.The controller class does not exist and cannot exist. All because control is needed either to protect or to kill, the third is not given. Titania is not a good frame for dps. Titania is not a good frame for support. The fact that she's a good controller (which is debatable) doesn't allow her to be a good DPS or support.

I'll tell you what, you can pick flowers on anything. But the smell is fried, you will immediately take them:

 

You are bending the concept of the Holy trinity quite a bit. (That concept is from the dawn of rpgs and its age really shows.) And even with that much bending I struggle to see it as part of Warframe design by DE (just look at Baruk).

Part of Titania's kit  does good damage (dex pixia). Quite a big part of her kit is meant to give support to the team by debuffing/controlling enemies. At her current state you can throw quite a huge amount of QoL-changes, synergies between abilities and straight, raw upping the numbers of her abilitites before we come near to a level of  OMG-TITANIA -IS-OP!!!111.

Edited by Sahansral

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Great, now if it's not too much trouble to fix Titania on the Switch so that whenever I use her abilities it doesn't cause disconnects and leaves me stuck with my sidearm. . .

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Le 17/12/2018 à 07:23, Stellatarum a dit :

I see your point, but don't forget, that CC is kind-of dead now. DE killed it over the years. You can use it for making starchart noise, but all the rewarding, worth to play missions other than Sorties require either high peak damage or some area of effect damage. Nowadays the key is DPS.

- Eidolons with CC? Still the most rewarding mission for focus and arcanes. Also the most fun if you don't time-stress it, in my opinion.
- ESO? While you try to CC it, already run out of efficiency.
- Arbitrations? With the shield drones... only solutions to kill them as fast as possible.
- Even higher relic missions is hard to CC with a lot of Ancients and Nullifiers
- I wonder if the new Orb thingy mission will involve serious CC to play when it comes to actual fight stage.

So CC is not as good as maybe it was many years ago and you can mostly use it for missions where you don't really need CC anyway. Obviously there are a couple of exceptions but the general rule stands I think.

 

I wasn't playing "many" years ago but CCs are definitely useful especially when it comes to help the most fragile frames. Only Eidolons are a thing but let be honest a second, they're immune to every single active ability so maybe we should remove every active ability from the game because of them ? It doesn't work this way.

Lots of enemies in Arbitrations aren't affected by drones especially if you're wise enough to destroy them first, same with nullifiers or ancients. Just play a Night Equinox around in various contents and you'll see that CCs (slow and damage reduction for instance) are utterly effective all around, especially if you don't want to die for no reasons.

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vor 27 Minuten schrieb 000l000:

I wasn't playing "many" years ago but CCs are definitely useful especially when it comes to help the most fragile frames. Only Eidolons are a thing but let be honest a second, they're immune to every single active ability so maybe we should remove every active ability from the game because of them ? It doesn't work this way.

Lots of enemies in Arbitrations aren't affected by drones especially if you're wise enough to destroy them first, same with nullifiers or ancients. Just play a Night Equinox around in various contents and you'll see that CCs (slow and damage reduction for instance) are utterly effective all around, especially if you don't want to die for no reasons.

I can see his points though. In the starchart CC isn't useless. It just has become less efficient the moment power creep elevated damage to levels that allow you to bruteforce every mission. And effiency is a thing in a grindining game like warframe. And this trend continues with every new gear, weapon, mod, etc, the gap between damage and cc widens.

Beyond starchart, things like Arbitrations and Eidolons really show how old Nyx' kit has become, when CC once was indeed really important. Vauban, anyone?

And Titania's kit just doesn't work well together after star chart. Numerous posts in this thread mentioned the well-lnown issues.

Perfect. Now I'm depressed.😞

Edited by Sahansral

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il y a 16 minutes, Sahansral a dit :

I can see his points though. In the starchart CC isn't useless. It just has become less efficient the moment power creep elevated damage to levels that allow you to bruteforce every mission. And effiency is a thing in a grindining game like warframe. And this trend continues with every new gear, weapon, mod, etc, the gap between damage and cc widens.

Beyond starchart, things like Arbitrations and Eidolons really show how old Nyx' kit has become, when CC once was indeed really important. Vauban, anyone?

And Titania's kit just doesn't work well together after star chart. Numerous posts in this thread mentioned the well-lnown issues.

Perfect. Now I'm depressed.😞

There's no gap between CCs and damage, CCs have nothing to do with damages. CCs are helping you surviving better, not increasing your TTKs. If you don't have any survivability issues that's fine but that doesn't mean everyone don't. I still remember this guy who was complaining about ember's terrible survivability, i'm using her augment mods and i'm prefectly fine even in arbitrations. Health and Adaptation can help but in the end you can't do better than CCs.

Edited by 000l000

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On 2018-12-17 at 9:28 AM, zhellon said:

no. There are three established roles in the gaming industry: DPS, tank, support. 

Everything else is a combination of these roles.The controller class does not exist and cannot exist. All because control is needed either to protect or to kill, the third is not given. Titania is not a good frame for dps. Titania is not a good frame for support. The fact that she's a good controller (which is debatable) doesn't allow her to be a good DPS or support.

I'll tell you what, you can pick flowers on anything. But the smell is fried, you will immediately take them:

 

Bro settle down.  Dex Pixia alone is plenty of power for Titania.  Sure it'd be nice to have more, but I can already rip through a level 300 heavy bombard without a thought.  Not every frame needs to fit an established role, they just need to feel good and be viable in Sorties, and Titania already is if you know how to build her.  She does need some buffs and her tribute reworked, but there's no reason to shoehorn her into some stupid category so long as we're having fun with her.

Also, see my earlier reply about how Titania can create one hell of a killbox in survival.  CC effects don't directly kill, but they're the only thing that never falls off no matter how high enemy levels get.  If you know how to use it, a good CC kit can take an endless team stupid far.

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Fortuna units are literally trashing titania out of the sky between 100% accuracy turrets, plenty of Aoes and gravity traps among other things she lasts seconds while in razorwing.

I see no improvement at all so far

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you literally 1-shot those turrets...and those "traps" never bothered me... I literally never get damaged...
I think the changes are fine. They just need to update the energy cost on tribute like the patch notes said...and I am happy.

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Take this not with a grain, but a bucket of salt:

After a very quick test I'm actually considering switching that icon over there to maybe Oberon or, idk yet.

<----

 

I'll definitely have to test her thoroughly and play around with my loadouts. But so far I'm not too impressed.

  • Shooting an MC target for 4 seconds is 4 seconds that I'm not shooting any enemies. One-handed cast is nice, but keep that in mind. And for a 250% damage buff? Yes, I have very low power strength, but I'm not yet convinced if it's actually worth modding for it.
  • Damage even from the charge up is applied after it runs out? That was part of the problem with her old passive! You couldn't keep a useful unit around because they would lose their main weapon. You can't keep them around when they're dead, either.
    • I like her new passive, however. Feels like it works.
  • Before I was using Psychic Bolts sporadically for:
    • Rad procs, especially on far away enemies
    • Her augment. Yes, I was using that on some loadouts. This has objectively gotten worse with how I can't recast right away anymore.
    • To find out-of-sight enemies. Can't recast now, though (there's a pattern here).
  • Meanwhile:
    • I guess her Absorb now gets mainly charged with Impact damage vs. Grineer, and Puncture vs. Corpus? Useful how? Well it wasn't before, either. So I don't mind all that much. Just wanted to point it out.
    • Why can't we have a ragdoll when Absorb ends? Or maybe extend the invulnerability for half a second? She's a sitting duck after it ends, and if a Heavy decides to ground-grenade at the wrong time, then it's a Gorgon, Napalm rocket or missile to the face right after. This has been a problem since forever.
    • Maybe if you didn't touch her at all, we'd still be able to use gear and emotes while in Assimilate (Absorb agument)? No one knows.

 

Maybe just add some synergy instead? I don't know.

 

Anyway, as said at the start and I want to stress it: Don't read too much into this yet. But first impression: I'm not too happy with how this feels right now.

 

Edit: P.S.: So. Seeing as Absorb is probably still rather pointless against actual enemies, when might this change be helpful? But of course, if we get together a dedicated team to spread our damage over a wide area! Does the Absorb still go through walls? Then for how much longer until you decide it shouldn't? Does that sound familiar and/or surprising to anyone around here?

Edited by Kontrollo
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I want to add my first impressions after playing some missions on the changes to Titania.

  • more Energy is really nice
  • getting full buff with just one cast is nice, but it still costs 50 Energy not 25, which would be ok if the buffs could get an overhaul
    • same duration for all buffs please (120s), why is Full Moon only 90s when it is the hardest to get
    • make it a bit more rewarding to get the buffs, if it stays that you have to collect them manually 
  • manual detonation from lantern does not seem to function reliable, when using it often did nothing and I had to hold the key again to actually detonate my target, which by then often flew into space, so please add a better tether and just go back to 1 lantern, didn't use more then one as the area it effects is often large enough
  • vacuum in Razorwing is nice, but I would prefer to actally have a pet, either give us our normal pet or make razorflies a real substitute, they even have survivability problems in low level missions.... Either give us a way to refresh them in razorwing, then their survivability does not really matter or make them moddable (if 3 exalted "weapons" will be to much , just get rid of diwata as it is just inferior to dex pixia) or just give them more health
  • her cast times are still aweful, especially spellbind, as her first skilll and only a cc effect it should be much quicker to cast, take Inaros for exampe, his one does damage, DoT, and opens enemies to finishers (cc) in half the casting time, for Tribute and Lantern it is mostly the same, but not so critical as they do more then just cc so a longer cast time is okay, but I would be happy if it wasn't that long
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17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Take this not with a grain, but a bucket of salt:

After a very quick test I'm actually considering switching that icon over there to maybe Oberon or, idk yet.

<----

 

I'll definitely have to test her thoroughly and play around with my loadouts. But so far I'm not too impressed.

  • Shooting an MC target for 4 seconds is 4 seconds that I'm not shooting any enemies. One-handed cast is nice, but keep that in mind. And for a 250% damage buff? Yes, I have very low power strength, but I'm not yet convinced if it's actually worth modding for it.
  • Damage even from the charge up is applied after it runs out? That was part of the problem with her old passive! You couldn't keep a useful unit around because they would lose their main weapon. You can't keep them around when they're dead, either.
    • I like her new passive, however. Feels like it works.
  • Before I was using Psychic Bolts sporadically for:
    • Rad procs, especially on far away enemies
    • Her augment. Yes, I was using that on some loadouts. This has objectively gotten worse with how I can't recast right away anymore.
    • To find out-of-sight enemies. Can't recast now, though (there's a pattern here).
  • Meanwhile:
    • I guess her Absorb now gets mainly charged with Impact damage vs. Grineer, and Puncture vs. Corpus? Useful how? Well it wasn't before, either. So I don't mind all that much. Just wanted to point it out.
    • Why can't we have a ragdoll when Absorb ends? Or maybe extend the invulnerability for half a second? She's a sitting duck after it ends, and if a Heavy decides to ground-grenade at the wrong time, then it's a Gorgon, Napalm rocket or missile to the face right after. This has been a problem since forever.
    • Maybe if you didn't touch her at all, we'd still be able to use gear and emotes while in Assimilate (Absorb agument)? No one knows.

 

Maybe just add some synergy instead? I don't know.

 

Anyway, as said at the start and I want to stress it: Don't read too much into this yet. But first impression: I'm not too happy with how this feels right now.

 

Edit: P.S.: So. Seeing as Absorb is probably still rather pointless against actual enemies, when might this change be helpful? But of course, if we get together a dedicated team to spread our damage over a wide area! Does the Absorb still go through walls? Then for how much longer until you decide it shouldn't? Does that sound familiar and/or surprising to anyone around here?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.

Having Absorb be completely Static is DOA as a power in Warframe’s current build where mobility and action are paramount with squad-based play.  I don’t care how you buff it or add de-buffs.

My suggestion:

All versions of Absorb need to allow for weapon use.

The ASSIMILATE Augment needs to be the standard in terms of movement.

The Augment itself should Then be tweaked to further increase movement speed up to 75% of standard.

If an energy drain akin to Volt’s Riot Shield is needed for balance for the “new” version of Assimilate, I’d still take it.

This is such a simple, effective fix.

Stop Grounding her with Absorb.

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73

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