Chat Moderation Changes and Additions Report!

[Almagnus1]

51 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Why do things have to be clearly identified as male or female for the playerbase to act respectfully towards one another?  This sounds like an excuse for boorish behavior.

It's because most are extremely clumsy with language that refers to nontraditional gender, so most use words that the community finds offensive because they simply don't know any better.  Don't assume malice when ignorance is a valid explanation.

[KaeseSchnitte]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Because women are people and deserving of equal rights and dignity.

Feminism is not synonymous with "Women deserve equal rights", though I can forgive you for thinking that in today's climate. Criticizing feminism does not imply that one is against equal rights for women. Some people want to conflate the two, but they're two separate things. DE failing to make that distinction worries me. If someone was attacking women in particular, then "sexism" can be stated as bannable offense, or, as I already pointed out, "inflammatory language".

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Because there is a difference between using slurs in chat and making lewd statements.

Then they should report "slurs" and not a meme.

[Almagnus1]

2 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

Feminism is not synonymous with "Women deserve equal rights", though I can forgive you for thinking that in today's climate. Criticizing feminism does not imply that one is against equal rights for women. Some people want to conflate the two, but they're two separate things. DE failing to make that distinction worries me. If someone was attacking women in particular, then "sexism" can be stated as bannable offense, or, as I already pointed out, "inflammatory language".

Exactly this.

For example, I believe that everyone should be treated equally regardless of their race, gender, religious background, ethnicity, etc, etc, etc.   I can also have concerns that Fourth-wave Feminism is counterproductive to that belief - mostly due to identity politics.

Someone is going to take issue with the above and misconstrue it as hate speech and me as a misogynist because certain value systems don't allow for the intellectual flexibility to separate expressing a concern from flaming a group.  Those value systems are driving certain chat moderator's actions fully explain why we have this chat moderation cluster we have now.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

6 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

It's because most are extremely clumsy with language that refers to nontraditional gender, so most use words that the community finds offensive because they simply don't know any better.  Don't assume malice when ignorance is a valid explanation.

People shouldn't be using words they don't understand then.  They also shouldn't be weighing in on conversations that can get very problematic, very fast, without knowing anything about it.  That's part of being respectful and mature.

10 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

Feminism is not synonymous with "Women deserve equal rights", though I can forgive you for thinking that in today's climate.

Except, that's what it is defined as.

10 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

Then they should report "slurs" and not a meme.

You're basically arguing just to argue now.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

Just now, Almagnus1 said:

For example, I believe that everyone should be treated equally regardless of their race, gender, religious background, ethnicity, etc, etc, etc.   I can also have concerns that Fourth-wave Feminism is counterproductive to that belief - mostly due to identity politics.

This is contradictory.

When women talk about equality, it's identity politics.  But, when you want to argue against them it's somehow not identity politics.  Got it.

[Almagnus1]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

People shouldn't be using words they don't understand then.  They also shouldn't be weighing in on conversations that can get very problematic, very fast, without knowing anything about it.  That's part of being respectful and mature.

This is the internet, most of the people opining on issues are actually on Mt Stupid (see below), and it's your job to kindly get them into the Valley of Despair, if not past that.

Shaming them for ignorance only make the issue worse.

 

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

This is contradictory.

When women talk about equality, it's identity politics.  But, when you want to argue against them it's somehow not identity politics.  Got it.

Or maybe I'm not looking at equality through an identity politics lens, and the issue is with you for not understanding that subtlety.

Got it?

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

This is the internet, most of the people opining on issues are actually on Mt Stupid (see below), and it's your job to kindly get them into the Valley of Despair, if not past that.

I don't accept defeat so easily.

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

Or maybe I'm not looking at equality through an identity politics lens, and the issue is with you for not understanding that subtlety.

Got it?

Yes.  It's not identity politics when men are speaking, but it is when women speak.  That's what you're saying right now.

[Almagnus1]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Yes.  It's not identity politics when men are speaking, but it is when women speak.  That's what you're saying right now.

Eh, no, that's an extremely bigoted and sexist misread of my point of view.

Women and men don't need identity politics to be equal.  If you can't understand that, then we're at an impasse.

[KaeseSchnitte]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Except, that's what it is defined as.

No, definitely not. Feminism is a movement that has the self-prescribed slogan "Equal rights for women", though a subset of that movement shows glaringly that this movement is not infallible. As such, criticism is warranted and criticism is needed in order for the movement to stay focussed.

"Equal rights for women" is an ideal, feminism is a movement.

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You're basically arguing just to argue now.

If DE gets so specifc in their report, I have to assume that they are neither professional, nor objective about this, meaning that they will favor certain types of behaviour while villifying other types, even if both can be summarized as "slurs". Which in turn means that some slurs are worse than others in their eyes, meaning some strictly illegal behaviour will be ignored, while other, similar behaviour will be punished. Double standards.

And your non-reply just tells me that you either do not grasp the severity of this situation or that you have run out of arguments to defend your position.

[Elyi]

6 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxeB2AXIG3E

How is this related? Traps exist, whether the character was or not a trap seems irrelevant to the discussion, you're denying a word that's been used for a stereotype that has been around for years and never before has it had a negative connotation, the definition is there for anyone that cares to google. Again the kind of people that pushes this blanket ban are those who NEED attention, NEED to feel victimized, and will be offended by anything and everything because so is their desire. It's all about them, disregard other people, disregard the context, disregard the correct and legitimate meaning of the word. 

[SilentMobius]

20 minutes ago, Ely.I said:

How is this related? Traps exist, whether the character was or not a trap seems irrelevant to the discussion, you're denying a word that's been used for a stereotype that has been around for years and never before has it had a negative connotation

This is objectively false, the origin of the term that the Western-Anime community co-opted has always been a slur, it is literally, by definition, inferring dishonesty in gender presentation. If you'd actually watched the video (which only briefly talks about the genesis of the video in a specific character question) it then goes on to explain where this usage of the term came from and why it inherently offensive.

It was adopted because of its "funny" use as a slur, what western anime fans have since used it for, in ignorance, changes nothing about the origin, inherent nastiness and current use of this slur.

I've been an anime fan since 1986 (Earlier if you count Gatchaman) I've seen all of this happen first-hand, there is nothing redeeming about the western anime communities adoption of a slur meme as a westernisation of "otokonoko"

[peterc3]

2 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Did it ever occur to you that if the desing of Nezha wasn't a gender ambiguous Sailor Moon homage, that entire meme would never have been born?

Also, did it ever occur to you that if DE hadn't cracked down on that meme, it likely would have died off and not have gotten the wheels that it did?

The design based on a Chinese god's popular depictions over history is a gender ambiguous Sailor Moon homage?

[Sean]

11 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

 

 

Just wow.

Repeatedly dismissing an entire community's worth of people is pretty damn bad.

Again: Just because in your bubble it is offensive, doesn't mean it is for other people, and blindly saying that all usages of it is negative is a dark mindset to take.

The word itself, trap, can mean so much more than even either of the two usages being discussed, and so including "trap" in any blanket-ban is a terrible practice.

 

Additionally, language evolves, it's why "gay" went from "happy" to now being synonymous with "homosexual", and so just because something was used one way at some point by some people doesn't mean it always will.

[Almagnus1]

27 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

The design based on a Chinese god's popular depictions over history is a gender ambiguous Sailor Moon homage?

Don't blame me for how the community sees this waframe, especially since the average North American knows jack about Chinese mythology.

The original design just needed to be better =/

[MagPrime]

@D20 @Letter13

Shts gotten weird again, someone let the crazies out of the basement. 

[(PSN)abbacephas]

1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

I politely disagree. Inaction towards sensitive topics is not good and it is why things escalate in the first place. Positive consumerism includes being able to hold companies accountable and vice versa. Sure it's their company, but you and I are stakeholders. We are directly afffected by what takes place. So when serious issues are raised, positive action should be taken as soon as possible.

Who decides what constitutes "sensitive topics" and/or "serious issues"? Just because a vocal minority raises a stink over something does not mean it is a pressing matter that needs to be looked at and addressed. So, what are the requirements for something to be legitimately considered a sensitive/serious issue?

And before I pursue the second half of your remark, let me ask: are you under the misguided impression that all stakeholders are equal?

 

1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

I sure hope they have decided to take action.

This brings us back full circle to my initial correspondence with you.

 

1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

I agree that the goal of pleasing everyone is silly. But like I said, we are stakeholders too and we have the capability to inform what is done. That is what DE has always welcomed. The right thing to do, will always be the right thing to do. There's no arguing or discussing that.

Please see my question above RE: stakeholders.

 

1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

Disagree. As a professional, you shouldn't need help to be civil about resolving a matter. Your behaviour need not be informed by other people's behaviour. You can be civil all by yourself. Because the person was "not civil" is no excuse for you to be "not civil" either and simply berate him and dismiss the allegations. It works both ways. Recommendations? I think the abrasive part of the video was when context was being given. The recommendations were fine and imo, the part that was "least abrasive".

This is absurd. Is DE comprised of automatons devoid of all emotions? You spoke of how you perceived of DE as being family to you, after having invested 6 years in this game. If your family were verbally attacked (or you perceived your family to be verbally attacked) by an outsider, would you be as nonchalant about it as you are requiring DE to be? Rudeness and disrespect breeds rudeness and disrespect. 

 

1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

Disagree as well. Like I said before, you can't make recommendations unless you've thoroughly understood the problem and quite frankly I feel like, apart from his harsh tone, the thing people are having a problem with is all the "evidence" that was given in regards to his allegations. The only time that evidence (supporting a claim against you) should ever perturb you is when it is false evidence. So if it's false evidence, one should expect a transparent response denying the claims and evidence presented, but also you should supply what you deem to be the truth. Simply dismissing something and going your merry way does not foster understanding at all, to either parties involved. That's just regressive behaviour. Again, I will state that, in my opinion, the responses were disappointing and also not conducive to a timely resolution.

Once again, if this has been going on for a while now, and others have raised this issue to DE before, then DE is already fully aware of all of the alleged "evidence" and "allegations" presented in the video. Bring it up yet again serves no purpose other than to inflame matters. As it is a YouTube video, it is clear the purpose is to get those likes and subscribes and to bolster their finances (because let's face it, nothing sells like controversy, be it real or imagined). Tell me, who is the intended audience of the video? 

[peterc3]

Just now, Almagnus1 said:

Don't blame me for how the community sees this waframe, especially since the average North American knows jack about Chinese mythology.

The original design just needed to be better =/

It's straight from just about any depiction of Nezha in media. The average North American person has access to the sum total of human knowledge from just about the dawn of recorded history. Either people are capable of being adults and can be trusted to not have these autokicks in place or they get treated like the children they act like.

Pick one.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

I love how you assume I'm trans (I'm not) for deciding not to be an immature twat. Sad.

I feel like I'm legit going insane whenever people say "trap" isn't 110% a negative term against the general trans community because 4chan. Do people have fun getting caught in a bear trap? Are mines just misunderstood?

[EquestrianWyvern]

*Sigh*... Why is this a thing?  This isn't a push for reforms, this is an all out war between a particular subset of the player base and the Moderation team.  The Moderation team, like any other moderation team, isn't perfect, and may have slighted some people, but this response is hardly proportional.

And when you dig to the center of this issue, where does it seem to lead back to?  Politics and Social issues that players refuse to leave outside the game.  Is it really worth tearing apart the generally friendly community we had, for some blasphemous Nezha meme?  As players, work with DE to de-escalate this conflict, don't push this to the point where the only option remaining is complete annihilation for one or both sides.  Rather than crying for blood, try making realistic suggestions for improving the moderation system going forward ('Remove everyone' and 'Police all online presence' are both excessive and impractical to implement.) Its easy to demand a better system, actually making said system is incredibly difficult, so try being part of the solution not the problem.  If you really must discuss these... Contentious topics, the Internet is a large place, with numerous locations that welcome such discussion.

As for the Moderation team's side, I can say that I don't envy your position having seen this mess happen again and again back during the better part of a decade I was a volunteer moderator in an MMORPG and helped run a fansite.  The best I can say is try opening a dialogue by asking the players directly for suggestions on ways to improve the moderator system as it is and improve recruitment procedures, to make it obvious that you are trying to improve things.  Should that fail, perhaps the only option on the table is an end to Region chat as we know it... Replace it with a Help chat specifically for game-play topics, and if you really want to maintain Region, make it an opt in experience or expand player access to the underlying IRC functions to allow topic based discussions to be split off into custom channels.  Regardless, keep up the good work.

Surely you all remember how this all began:

Quote

 

Your New Mission Tenno,

Now that you have freed yourself from Vor and his Ascaris, you have a new mission, one of your own making. Know that I am only your guide, you are your own warrior, you decide what battles to fight. Allow me to suggest a course of action:

Seek out like-minded fighters, Tenno are more effective in groups.

[...]

Finally, stay alert. The Grineer and Corpus are tireless and you are the only thing standing between them and total domination of the Origin System.

I am counting on you, Tenno.

-The Lotus

Lets get out there and make Space Mom proud, after all...

Ninjas Play Free

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

It's straight from just about any depiction of Nezha in media. The average North American person has access to the sum total of human knowledge from just about the dawn of recorded history. Either people are capable of being adults and can be trusted to not have these autokicks in place or they get treated like the children they act like.

You're making the assumption that people aren't jumping to the conclusion that Nezha is another made up name in this game.  To be fair, that's not that much of a stretch to see how someone would miss the real world connection.

If you don't know the Chinese mythology, it's not that much of a stretch to see the superficial resemblance to:

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Why do things have to be clearly identified as male or female for the playerbase to act respectfully towards one another?  This sounds like an excuse for boorish behavior.

I agree with this, fully. Most importantly because they're fictional characters in a video game, that do not engage in sexual relationships. 

Nobody should care whether Ticker is male or female, and someone mistakenly referring to Ticker as him/her doesn't need to be corrected. Likewise, anyone who acts surprised that a character taken directly from Chinese classical mythology, having exactly the characteristics that he's supposed to is more telling of their lack of knowledge of foreign cultures. 

But immediately insisting that someone is a bigot simply because they don't know all the possible slurs that could possibly exist also looks like a very flimsy excuse for boorish behavior. People should be educated as a part of any punishment. And again, no, the cya move of giving a very vague and uninformative "that's not an appropriate topic for discussion in our space ninja game" is not good enough and I believe that there are mods who know that but continue to do it anyway. I suspect that the mods who use that as a standard "warning" are probably a significant part of the problem. 

[Almagnus1]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

But immediately insisting that someone is a bigot simply because they don't know all the possible slurs that could possibly exist also looks like a very flimsy excuse for boorish behavior. People should be educated as a part of any punishment. And again, no, the cya move of giving a very vague and uninformative "that's not an appropriate topic for discussion in our space ninja game" is not good enough and I believe that there are mods who know that but continue to do it anyway. I suspect that the mods who use that as a standard "warning" are probably a significant part of the problem. 

I agree, I think player/moderator education is the right way to move forward as people need to know what they did wrong and why it's wrong (especially the players that happen to lack good social skills), and most of the issue will correct itself.

 

 

[Me.KayOh]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Who decides what constitutes "sensitive topics" and/or "serious issues"? Just because a vocal minority raises a stink over something does not mean it is a pressing matter that needs to be looked at and addressed. So, what are the requirements for something to be legitimately considered a sensitive/serious issue?

Allegations of nepotism and favouritism is not a serious/sensitive issue to you? Especially since facilitating such activities as a game company is frowned upon.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

And before I pursue the second half of your remark, let me ask: are you under the misguided impression that all stakeholders are equal?

stakeholder is not the equivalent of shareholder. I hope you're not under the misguided impression that they are the same. And for a company, the paying stakeholders should be of particular importance. How you react towards them; how you appear before them; how you treat with them is all important aspects.

 

7 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

This is absurd. Is DE comprised of automatons devoid of all emotions? You spoke of how you perceived of DE as being family to you, after having invested 6 years in this game. If your family were verbally attacked (or you perceived your family to be verbally attacked) by an outsider, would you be as nonchalant about it as you are requiring DE to be? Rudeness and disrespect breeds rudeness and disrespect. 

Yes I would be nonchalant about it, because I am in control of my own emotions, feelings and attitudes and I have a very firm handle on how I can respond to such accusations, whether true or false. Are you telling me that DE cannot also do this? That they are unable to logically think and act in response to a serious accusation such as nepotism? And that they can react as they please towards their stakeholders and the public? Are you saying there's no consequences for them? Because that's a fallacy.

Oh you subscribe to the "personal attacks" response. Oh ok. You like others, apparently do not know what constitutes a personal attack. That is fine and is no concern to me if you cannot differentiate the difference between objective conclusions drawn from evidence supplied and "personal attacks". DE is a professional studio that publishes and develops their own game. Are you seriously and conveniently making an excuse for them to be rude and disrespectful to one of their own partners who is simply offering (brutal) criticism? This is neanderthal-like thinking and is not something a professional company should subscribe to. I honestly hope you're not speaking for DE here and making an excuse for their responses. Because that's just shameful and constitutes double-standards. You know, one of the other accusations made in the video.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Once again, if this has been going on for a while now, and others have raised this issue to DE before, then DE is already fully aware of all of the alleged "evidence" and "allegations" presented in the video. Bring it up yet again serves no purpose other than to inflame matters. As it is a YouTube video, it is clear the purpose is to get those likes and subscribes and to bolster their finances (because let's face it, nothing sells like controversy, be it real or imagined). Tell me, who is the intended audience of the video? 

If you're telling me they're aware of the issue, then fine. What you're essentially telling me is that they've been aware for years, and have done nothing about it, which is what the video also alleges. Oh, is that a personal attack? No, it's a conclusion drawn from evidence provided, which is what the video is. And of course, the *only* reason he made the video was for "likes" 

I love the rate at which you are conveniently reaching for bland generic excuses to simply dismiss the video, its allegations and all the issues that have been lingering for years now. Just like what was done on twitter yesterday.

"Let's forget it happened. Let's pretend it didn't exist. And the problem will go away. Because it's just a vocal minority who is of no importance. Meanwhile we can continue operating as always, without consequence" 

^If you feel safe subscribing to that ideology, you're in for a rude awakening.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

23 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

Allegations of nepotism and favouritism is not a serious/sensitive issue to you? Especially since facilitating such activities as a game company is frowned upon.

Quote

al·le·ga·tion

Dictionary result for allegation

/ˌaləˈɡāSH(ə)n/

noun

plural noun: allegations

1. a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong, typically one made without proof.

No. I do not find claims or assertions without proof to be serious/sensitive issues.

 

23 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

stakeholder is not the equivalent of shareholder. I hope you're not under the misguided impression that they are the same. And for a company, the paying stakeholders should be of particular importance. How you react towards them; how you appear before them; how you treat with them is all important aspects.

 

Quote

Shareholders are always stakeholders in a corporation, but stakeholders are not always shareholders. A shareholder owns part of a public company through shares of stock while a stakeholder has an interest in the performance of a company for reasons other than stock performance or appreciation. These reasons often mean that the stakeholder has a greater need for the company and for a longer term.

Source

 

23 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

Yes I would be nonchalant about it, because I am in control of my own emotions, feelings and attitudes and I have a very firm handle on how I can respond to such accusations, whether true or false. Are you telling me that DE cannot also do this? That they are unable to logically think and act in response to a serious accusation such as nepotism? And that they can react as they please towards their stakeholders and the public? Are you saying there's no consequences for them? Because that's a fallacy.

K.

 

23 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

Oh you subscribe to the "personal attacks" response. Oh ok. You like others, apparently do not know what constitutes a personal attack.

Pot, meet kettle.

Quote

personal-attack

Noun

(plural personal attacks)

1. Making of an abusive remark on or relating to one's person instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments.

 

23 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

If you're telling me they're aware of the issue, then fine. What you're essentially telling me is that they've been aware for years, and have done nothing about it, which is what the video also alleges. Oh, is that a personal attack? No, it's a conclusion drawn from evidence provided, which is what the video is. And of course, the *only* reason he made the video was for "likes" 

I love the rate at which you are conveniently reaching for bland generic excuses to simply dismiss the video, its allegations and all the issues that have been lingering for years now. Just like what was done on twitter yesterday.

"Let's forget it happened. Let's pretend it didn't exist. And the problem will go away. Because it's just a vocal minority who is of no importance. Meanwhile we can continue operating as always, without consequence" 

^If you feel safe subscribing to that ideology, you're in for a rude awakening.

Thank you for the non-answer. We're done here.

[peterc3]

29 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

You're making the assumption that people aren't jumping to the conclusion that Nezha is another made up name in this game.  To be fair, that's not that much of a stretch to see how someone would miss the real world connection.

If you don't know the Chinese mythology, it's not that much of a stretch to see the superficial resemblance to:

I forget. When did Sailor Moon trail fire behind her and use a giant ring? Summon spears from the ground? Am I really that strange for not thinking a frame added with Wukong might not have anything to do with Japan? Nezha, one of those obviously Japanese names. Forgive me for assuming people on the internet were capable of using it.

23 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

If you're telling me they're aware of the issue, then fine. What you're essentially telling me is that they've been aware for years, and have done nothing about it, which is what the video also alleges. Oh, is that a personal attack? No, it's a conclusion drawn from evidence provided, which is what the video is. And of course, the *only* reason he made the video was for "likes" 

You've jumped to a conclusion that they give a rat's ass about this, that it matters beyond the edgy online crowd.

You're assuming you are part of a population they aren't fully prepared to write off and ignore.