Everyone Shouldn't (Fully) Complete Everything

[DrBorris]

Oh boy, controversial opinion inbound, Primed Flame Repellent equipped.

 

The Warframe community is weird (for a lot of reasons, but let's just focus on one right now). There is a seemingly large want for there to be systems in the game that allow for those who 'overachieve' to be rewarded. For those who spend (too much) time playing the game to be given reward to correlate to said time. However, whenever there is something that any portion of the community is unable to do, it is "bad content". If you want someone to be rewarded for an excess of time, then those people who do not put in an excess of time would not get the same reward. Hmm, I am seeing a problem here.

 

This has come up a few times, and it is happening more and more recently as DE has actually started to add content that, at the end of the day, divides the playerbase.

• Eidolons: There is quite a massive difference in the amount of reward a min-maxed group of players get from Eidolon hunting than a rag-tag group in public matchmaking. One group will get a substantially higher reward per minute than the other. However, doesn't this make sense? Shouldn't the group that has spent the time to organize and grind out their gear be rewarded?
• (Elite) Sanctuary Onslaught: While this discussion has died down, comments still come up about how the mode all about killing as fast as possible is bad because it 'forces' you into loadouts that kill as fast as possible. There is an expectation in this mode, at least to get to rotation C, that you will have certain items in your loadout that not everyone is up to. However, if there was no need to take certain equipment, what point would there be in grinding for said equipment in the first place?

And the most important note about the two above things is that the are doable and rewarding to everyone. A Tridolon is doable by any player that is willing to learn the mechanics, it may take an entire night cycle but it is possible. And as for ESO, it is possible with most sets of gear however your time will be much easier if you had appropriate gear. Anyone can do these things, but those players that have put more time into the game do them 'better'.

 

And this brings me to the hot-topic of the week, Nightwave.

I am getting mixed messages from the community, they want something to give 'veterans' something to do but they also want the most casual of players to complete this content to the same effect as the veteran? I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but that is litteraly impossible. Good thing that DE accounted for this in the base design of Nightwave and made it "completable" by anyone but only able to be "fully completed" by those who put a bit more time in the game.

 

As it has been repeated time and time again, you only need to complete roughly 65% of Nightwave to "complete" it. More precisely, given a 10 week run-time, you need to get 30,000 reputation every week. Excuse me for being blunt, but getting 30k reputation even on a week where the challenges are as "atrocious" as this¹ is a joke given how easy it is. This system was not designed to only cater to the most casual of players, it was designed to cater to and reward everyone for their time. This inherently means that some people will be more rewarded than others. You don't "need" to do every challenge, Nightwave was designed with this in mind, isn't this what we² have been asking for?

 

Keep in mind the ramifications when you ask for certain things. Know that asking for "veteran content" means you are locking content way from casual players, and also know that if you want casual players to be able to partake in something that you demean the value of being a veteran. There is no true right answer, there rarely is, but it is important to consider the consequences of things when you ask for them. If you are a casual player and you want to be able to do something to its maximum completeness, bare in mind that by asking for this you are asking for other players to have their time spent in the game devalued.

 

¹ I do think that the Survival challenges are a bit rough, especially due to the friend requirement of one and the trolling potential of the other. However, if I picked a "worst" challenge it would be the 10 syndicate missions for 3,000 standing. Having to do 10 missions that range from 3-10 minutes is a bigger ask than an hour long survival for some people (like myself).

² I know that I do not speak for the entire community, but I am yet to see someone actively be against adding veteran content.

Edited March 4, 2019 by DrBorris

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Edited March 4, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Ketec]

Some extreme requirements need to be  cut down a bit.

And overall - the 12 week limit should be longer. 

Or allow another one to start on top of the old season so you can still finish old one.

12 week - even at 65% completion (which does require quite a few of the hard ones since low ones reward too little to be enough) is the problem.

Ether because new/semi new players do not have the gear required to participate in some, getting trolled (the survival) or physically limited by playtime.

And then there is that abomination of the 10 perfect pet captures - the worst system in the entire game.

[Marvelous_A]

It is to replace alert. By asking more time than you need for alerts it gives worse rewards than alerts. /thread

Sigils, emotes, syandana and armors should go to market. Not lock behind grinds.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Marvelous_A

[Softballbryan]

I’m MR24 and have played since August... I did my first attempt at a Hydrolyst last week... because of Nightwave... I think the system is good and look forward to challenges too difficult for me to succeed at. Bring it on and be creative, it’s part of the fun with Rivens.

It’s a game and we are not obligated to do anything if we don’t want to. Relax and enjoy... I am so happy I found a game where you are connected to the people creating it... we are lucky and should enjoy it while we can. 

[Genitive]

Well put.

[Zelmen]

4 minutes ago, Ketec said:

And then there is that abomination of the 10 perfect pet captures - the worst system in the entire game.

Really? Never touch this before today and the hardest part was understand the damn animal calls. Watched a 1 min video and got it done in 30ish min. Once again never touched or understood it before today.

[LSG501]

28 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

snip

OK..now look at it as a newer player who might actually want to get the 'limited time' items such as syandana and armor (yes they don't NEED umbra forma and/or the armor but still)... you'll find they'll be struggling to get the required 30k standing per week with the current design. 

What's the point in having tiers which some players won't be able to reach because they can't get a predetermined level of points per week, if you just skip out on elite missions (which most newer players will have to) you lose 15k standing, that takes you below 30k even with weekly missions, throw in more missions like ayatan x5 and it's even lower.   Yes they can farm the capture targets but they're not exactly cropping up in large numbers for me (and I still haven't seen the wolf).

In my opinion this game mode shouldn't be aimed at veterans it should be all inclusive, a newbie should be just as able to get the 300k in 10 weeks as a veteran.  Now I'm not saying don't have 'higher tier stuff' to do but have more daily or 'lower tier' items so newbies can also get the full standing, just with doing more missions with easier content instead.

Yes higher level players will finish it faster, as with all other syndicates, but considering all they'll get at the end is more wolf creds (which expire at the end by the looks of it) what harm would that do, they likely have most stuff from the creds store already, I know I do.

 

I'll also openly say I don't believe that the rewards on some of the elite missions are worth the time we need to put into them and I think DE needs to balance the time for 5k to be lower than 1 hour or a full tridolon. 

I've said elsewhere that the creds side of things is more about pushing new players to buy things with plat than making it better, there's not enough creds for it to be better than the old system other than 'not needing to be online'.

Edited March 4, 2019 by LSG501
typo

[MARALOHK]

Just now, Genitive said:

Well put.

Indeed.
 

5 minutes ago, Ketec said:

Some extreme requirements need to be  cut down a bit.

I think there could be a solution that would still allow the challenges to be challenging, and yet reward any form of participation, to the degree of participation. For example the "hour long survival" could reward Nightwave rep based on time spent, up to the full hour. If a squad could only survive 30 minutes, they would get half of the full standing. You would be able to go back and try again to try to improve your "best time" within the time limit of the challenge if you wanted, but not farm the challenge for rep beyond the maximum limit.

Is the "1 hour for 5k" specifically excessive? Possibly so.

10 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

It is to replace alert. By asking more time than you need for alerts it gives worse rewards than alerts. /thread

Toward the goal of replacing alerts, I would agree Nightwave is falling behind a bit. I don't think it is actually because there aren't enough wolf creds, but rather that the wolf creds are too concentrated at certain reward tiers. Personally, I feel either every tier could have some wolf creds, or the daily challenges could reward wolf creds.

[HugintheCrow]

32 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I am getting mixed messages from the community, they want something to give 'veterans' something to do but they also want the most casual of players to complete this content to the same effect as the veteran?

Thing is, while veteran content is nice and all, Nightwave was NOT supposed to be veteran content. As Nightwave is supposed to replace alerts (which were widely available to pretty much all players), it should strive to do the same thing as the alerts.

Edited March 4, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[MARALOHK]

4 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Thing is, while veteran content is nice and all, Nightwave was NOT supposed to be veteran content. As Nightwave is supposed to replace alerts (which were widely available to pretty much all players), it should strive to do the same thing as the alerts.

There isn't a reason to say that it can't scratch the itch for veteran content as well, but you are right: the primary goal should be availability of alert rewards for all players who need them, which is primarily the newer players.

[Oreades]

45 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Everyone Shouldn't (Fully) Complete Everything

Even if everything was presented in a way that everyone could complete everything, not everyone is going to complete everything. Sooooo wish already granted even if they make the over all experience more user friendly. 

That said, there are definitely ways that they could make the experience more user friendly. For starters making the weekly challenges something you can complete at any time up to the final day of Nightwave. People still have to put in the same time/effort their window for completion is just extended and if you miss a week or two you can actually catch up/recover. Where as at present you're just SOL for ...... reasons ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Alternative scenario would be a player who just wasn't at a point where they could complete the challenge at the time it was presented but say three weeks later had "grown" enough that they could have completed the challenge if it was presented to them now. It's super capricious to say that they get left out because they couldn't do it during the window in which it was presented as that window with respect to a protracted (10 week?) event is in itself extremely arbitrary.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Oreades

[(PSN)case627]

I have no problem with difficult content that some people might not be able to defeat but a 60 minute survival doesn't even sound difficult, it just sounds extremely boring and tedious.  People have every right to voice their criticism and tell DE this is not the type of challenge they want.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 minute ago, (PS4)case627 said:

People have every right to voice their criticism and tell DE this is not the type of challenge they want.

Most complainers don't want a challenge at all.
While some content might be boring for one person, and fun for the other neither is impossible or required.

[DrBorris]

6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

-snip-

As long as you are not a freshly un-frozen Tenno and play four hours a week (where not all of that times is dedicated to Nightwave) I have trouble imagining how getting to tier 30 is not "all inclusive". You have a margin of 13,000 standing a week you can miss and still get to 30, yes this does mean that you can't skip all of the Elite challenges but so far we have seen that not all of the "Elite" challenges are very elite (3 waves of ESO is doable by pretty much everyone). Quick head math says that you can get 30,000 standing this week in about an hour and a half total, and it is not like that hour and a half is spent explicitly on Nightwave (skipping the two Survival challenges and the Syndicate challenge). Sorties, Relics, conservation captures, and ESO all give great rewards on their own.

 

If DE tunes the "difficulty" down of Nightwave too much, then the value of being a veteran player decreases. If extremely casual players get deep into prestige, then what is the point in all of that time a veteran put into gearing up?

 

6 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Thing is, while veteran content is nice and all, Nightwave was NOT supposed to be veteran content. As Nightwave is supposed to replace alerts (which were widely available to pretty much all players), it should strive to do the same thing as the alerts.

Where did you get that idea? I very much think that Nightwave was designed with veterans explicitly in mind (and casuals, it is made for everyone), to give them something to go for on a weekly basis. Nightwave was not supposed to explicitly replace alerts, it is here to replace and improve on alerts. Anytime you rework something it would be a waste of time to just replace it. You want to also improve on it in some way. Isn't a system that encourages veterans to play and feel rewarded for being a veteran a good thing?

 

2 minutes ago, (PS4)case627 said:

I have no problem with difficult content that some people might not be able to defeat but a 60 minute survival doesn't even sound difficult, it just sounds extremely boring and tedious.  People have every right to voice their criticism and tell DE this is not the type of challenge they want.

Don't get caught up in the whole Survival thing, that is not the point of this post. The point is that when you ask for something to change that you think of the consequences. I tried to avoid being a meta-topic as much as possible, but this is responding to the "Nightwave is systemically bad for casuals" rhetoric more than anything.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

DE should make sure that the alert rewards are easy enough to get for new players and those who need the rewards. Maybe make wolf creds easier to get in some way(and make the price of potatoes a bit higher so nobody can just milk those instead of getting the other alert rewards). They could make sure the slots are in an accessible place too, since new players probably need those more.

The alert rewards should be for casuals, the tier rewards should be more geared towards experienced players(only optional stuff obviously, nothing "necessary" for progression).

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

The problem is that this system is supposed to replace alerts, you know which were the easiest missions in the universe? 

[LSG501]

25 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

As long as you are not a freshly un-frozen Tenno and play four hours a week (where not all of that times is dedicated to Nightwave) I have trouble imagining how getting to tier 30 is not "all inclusive". You have a margin of 13,000 standing a week you can miss and still get to 30, yes this does mean that you can't skip all of the Elite challenges but so far we have seen that not all of the "Elite" challenges are very elite (3 waves of ESO is doable by pretty much everyone). Quick head math says that you can get 30,000 standing this week in about an hour and a half total, and it is not like that hour and a half is spent explicitly on Nightwave (skipping the two Survival challenges and the Syndicate challenge). Sorties, Relics, conservation captures, and ESO all give great rewards on their own. 

 

If DE tunes the "difficulty" down of Nightwave too much, then the value of being a veteran player decreases. If extremely casual players get deep into prestige, then what is the point in all of that time a veteran put into gearing up? 

You're making very big assumptions on the abilities of a newer player and that the elite missions will continue to have one item that is 'doable', likely them being carried in most cases.

Also if you note I never said they needed to remove elite missions, I said I don't think the existing ones are fairly balanced in relation to their standing in a lot of cases and that there should be more 'lower tier ones' so that a newer play can still get that magical 30k standing a week by doing more lower level missions, which at the same time would speed up veteran progress or give those that dislike some of the elite missions an alternative route.

[--END--Rikutatis]

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

 Now I'm not saying don't have 'higher tier stuff' to do but have more daily or 'lower tier' items so newbies can also get the full standing, just with doing more missions with easier content instead.

I think this is totally fair and would be perfectly happy to see DE do this. The problem is that this is not the type of feedback players are giving DE. They are just going rampant with the "omg, too hard, too much work, I don't like doing this, pls nerf, pls make it easier/faster, etc". For the first time in a very long time I'm actually happy with the direction WF is going with these elite challenges and already people are crying for nerfs.

 

1 hour ago, Ketec said:

Some extreme requirements need to be  cut down a bit.

No, they really don't IMO. Other than the 5 ayatan sculptures I haven't seen anything that was too unreasonable. I'd love for more of these elite challenges with a twist (like the kuva survival one was perfect). 

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

Tbh, my opinion is that too many players are used to getting everything they want for little to no effort.  There's no mission I've seen that is hard even for noobs considering the huge number of players I've seen offering to carry low level players through what are considered the harder missions.  And for the vets, those harder missions aren't even challenging, they can pretty much all be done through normal gameplay we would have been doing anyway. 

Don't forget all the complaints about the old alert system.   The rng nature of it, not able to even see alerts if you hadn't unlocked that node.  That was unfair and this fixes that.   15 nitain for 45 wc's? Awesome, doable easily in a week which might have taken several weeks before.  Along the way you get slots, kuva, mods etc etc, also awesome, especially as most of the alerts are extremely easy to complete just by actually playing the game.

Imo most the complaints I've read seem to be from people but hurt at not having everything handed to them and actually having to play the game to get the rewards.   Boo hoo.  Name me a looters shooter that is free to play that hands out the top tier rewards to everyone without expecting players to actually commit to playing the game.  Want that umbra forma or armour set?  Play the game and earn it and stop expecting everything in the game to be easy and handed to you.

[aplethoraof]

I can relate to this premise. I don't collect Rivens because I absolutely despise the RNG and I've pretty much given up hope of getting Umbra Rivens because of the way they are distributed. I keep my MR at the bare minimum to get all the weapons I want, I never feel the need to go above it. Again, too much RNG, too much grind.

Sometimes it is irritating when something is locked behind too large a grind AND I want it, but then I usually just fork out plat (either by purchasing or by trading for plat). I tend to constantly trade stuff I have no intention of using for plat (MR be damned), since I hate grinding up new weapons even though it is relatively quick.

When weapons/frames I want have 15+ MR, I'll probably be in trouble and either have to grind my life out, quit playing, or accept that I won't be able to play with tools that I want to. But for now, it works.

Hopefully, DE won't push it to that extreme, and will stick to this premise that "not everyone will play all the content, so barriers should be kept lower".

[Ketec]

What they could do is provide more challenges - but you can only finish specific number out of each tier.

This would add some variety and selection to match different playstyles and preferences.

Combined with 1-2 extra weeks for the deadline to take off some of the pressure.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I agree...There's no way I am going to waste a minute of my time in this game chasing down the wildlife for a perfect capture...that challenge can go sniff the manure and  jump off a cliff on it's own time for all I care....

[TARINunit9]

I am a firm believer that everyone should be given the opportunity to complete everything in a game

But the devs are under no obligation to make that easy

[(PSN)wintersfrozen]

The biggest mistake with night wave isn’t so much the grind for all the swag, but the wolf creds locked behind the grind. You only receive them every 3 ranks.

 A lot of the “elite” challenges simply are not completeable for casual/new players. While the system is still being worked on it by no means deserves the praise of “better then alerts” because it isn’t. In exchange for RNG you went with a grind that blocks out the people who need the resources the most.

A lot of vets are saying it’s too easy, new players are saying it’s too hard, and casual players are saying there isn’t enough time to do everything. So who the heck is this system supposed to benefit?