Are Riven Mods Warframe loot box/gacha game?

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

3 minutes ago, Jinzanami said:

so the the riven mafia selling plats to 3rd party sites and hording it like theres no tomorrow is alright ? 

Kubrow furr slot machine was a bad idea no sht, but you get what you paid for no 5 rng layers and then some more like Rivens .

Rivens  in comparison are cancer and they broke the game and the economy they're lootbox and gambling, and they're even worse, you will still get duplicates so if you wanted lanka then theres a chance you will still getting a riven you never asked for and the best part is you cant keep more than 90 riven, even overwatch lootboxes dont make you pay slots for your duplicate skins.

holy sht you're trolling 100% ! return in time and go sell a Gram riven for 3k and see who will buy your crap, now try to sell it after the prime release that made it more powercreep than Galatine but with 5 riven disposition and you will get people begging you to sell it for them in 3k and above, DE are the one who call the shots on who gotta be a masterrace and what weapon will play the peasant and they can switch that in a blink of an eye, DE knows it and done nothing about it.

i didnt get what i paid for, i wanted a lanka riven and not 5 duplicates of freaking Hind, and i have to sell them or desolve them or else i cant buy more lootbox to open, a damn joke.

just because are used to ease all kind of rng bs, but in Riven case they're 100% mandatory if you want to save a big chunk of your life and sanity, even with one you will still need 2 runs of Kuva flood just to roll a single time, dont take me for a fool i know this game like the back of my hand.

again patting DE in the back for christ sake stop this, the community never ever asked or gave concept for this cancer, it was DE own idea and they dropped it out of nowhere, everyone was waiting for the Damage 3.0 or Damage 2.5 and the removal of the mandatory mods so we can save more slots on our weapons but what did we get ? 

4 mods stuffed into one that can be used on meta weapons from the get go, its on the devs shoulders to balance the game and not screw it up by design.

i will only blame DE who made the cancer and let it metastasis this long without doing anything about it, they made the community get addicted to them even tough they failed they're propose and theres noway that they didnt foreseen this, they can purge the cancer right now if they want to and they never gave  crap when they nerfed vacuum and nekros and hydroid and many other things but since Riven are bringing in the dough then its alright.

DE are the one who call the shots they can make any powercreep in a blink, the players have no control over that, its totally the devs.

if Tiberon had 1 riven disposition just like tigris then you will not see that bs prices pop up, if gram had 1 riven disposition then you will not see it going for 5k day one, they design it to be powercreep, they know it had 5 stars disposition and they released it and design it around it because they know what they're doing.

My God this has turned into a petty argument.

Yes, they should be banned. They used bots, and it wouldn't surprise me to know they RWT'd. DE instead suspended Semlar until he apologized. 

My argument has been, and will be, that there shouldn't be only 4 or 5 weapons that people want from them. The problem is the weapons simply aren't fun to shoot, or are peashooters. Rivens haven't fixed this. A total stat overhaul was and is still needed. If the only thing you wanted was a Lanka, but you got 5 Hinds, why is it that hind rivens are trash? The point was to fix that. 

Even then, depending what you bought the veiled for, and what you got, you could sell them and either break even or profit.

Furthermore your odds of getting any 1 riven are less than 1%. That's your bad for buying them, though the plat is circulated rather than removed. Most that sell veiled are lower level. If anything you're helping lower levels.

Beyond that your argument is your opinion and I simply don't agree where you're casting blame. 

Because of your cussing, accusations, insults, and ranting, I must say furthering this seems pointless.

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

2 hours ago, Eruyt said:

In light of the recent changes and work DE is putting on Riven Mods.

"We are going to try doing this because we think it will allow fairer trading to occur with a standard baseline. Because Rivens vary in stats, we expect subjective value discussions to still take place." (DE) Rebecca

It is clear that DE is woried/or conerned about how players are trading/useing/exploiting this system and is working towards a solution that is fair for the players and viable for the lifespawn of Warframe.

I would like to know what we (Tenno) think about this system and the monatization that is involved on it.

So my Questions are:

Do you consider the Riven Trade a form of monetization in Warframe?

Would you compare it to a loot box/gacha system? (what is a loot box?)

 

I AM NOT A MEMBER OF DE! I AM ONLY ASKING THESE QUESTIONS AS A TENNO!!! OUT OF CURIOSITY AND WILL TO KNOW WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THIS SUBJECT!!!THX!!!😘

Allowing players to trade in general is a form of monetisation, people saying otherwise are delirious.

But they are not loot boxes, the only way you could make a case they were, is in the example of someone buying veiled riven after veiled riven after veiled riven, 50p each time.

But even then, that isn’t a service DE offer. That’s you ripping yourself off with another player, DE’s only involvement is allowing you to do so, while they scim a fat buck off of player trading.

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

From reading the comments in this thread the only people calling rivens lootboxes are the ones who don’t like rivens in general.

They’re using the term loot box as an insult, not a way to actually describe rivens.

[Nukesnipe]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Mono-Pop said:

Allowing players to trade in general is a form of monetisation, people saying otherwise are delirious.

But they are not loot boxes, the only way you could make a case they were, is in the example of someone buying veiled riven after veiled riven after veiled riven, 50p each time.

But even then, that isn’t a service DE offer. That’s you ripping yourself off with another player, DE’s only involvement is allowing you to do so, while they scim a fat buck off of player trading.

DE doesn't make money on players trading among themselves.  The platinum is already in circulation, and the only tax is on credits, which shouldn't be taxed because credits are really only useful in large quantities for trade tax and infusion.

Yes, they make money when the platinum enters circulation, but after that, they don't.  You could argue that they make money off of trading if people are buying platinum just to trade away, and, well, yeah.  But it's not like there's a platinum tax and some plat leaves circulation every time someone does a trade.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Mono-Pop said:

From reading the comments in this thread the only people calling rivens lootboxes are the ones who don’t like rivens in general.

They’re using the term loot box as an insult, not a way to actually describe rivens.

It's like whenever a conversation about new Star Wars movies comes up and people start screaming "MARY SUE!" without knowing what a mary sue even is.  They're throwing a buzzword around carelessly.  Rivens are much more akin to slot machines.

[Guest]

Kinda yes but not really.

DE doesn't directly sell Rivens, the economy around them is ran by players.

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

Riven's aren't loot-boxes in the one area where it matters. They don't trigger an uncontrolled addiction response. There are a few things necessary to trigger the addiction response.

1) A short enough duration between "hits" (in this case triggered by a chance mechanic) that leads to a downward spiral.
2) The ability to buy additional hits that leads to a detrimental effect on your overall health.

Paying 3k plat to buy a pre-rolled Riven from another player isn't caused by gambling addiction. It's caused by a need for status. Purchasing status is its own issue, but it's not worsened by someone with a gambling addiction.

Rivens have two specific limitations that short-circuit the addiction response. 1) You cannot purchase tokens (i.e. kuva) for the chance mechanic. 2) The effort to get veiled rivens and unveil them is difficult enough to avoid an addiction response. The average amount of time to get veiled rivens is long enough that the dopamine levels trail off. If you're getting enough of a hit that taking 15 minutes to unveil 2-3 rivens and that's an issue, then you need serious help and likely have a very horrid case of gambling addiction. That's not a judgment, but if a person's gambling addiction is triggering off that, they're probably also doing other very dangerous and/or harmful addictive behaviors.

The two fundamental factors are level-of-high and time-between-highs. Rivens short circuit the addiction response by having a combination of level-of-high and time-between-highs that isn't that bad compared to other loot-box-based games. 

[Hypernaut1]

No matter how many times you try to call Rivens a "loot box", it won't make them give us locked stats 

Rivens use STANDARD ARPG/looter mechanics. The implications that they are somehow morally wrong is ridiculous, especially when considering the genre. 

This is a pve looter. RNG stats is standard fare

Edited April 8, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[SteelOverseer666]

You can buy Kuva for platinum? I didn't know that?!

Oh you cant and this whole thread is pointless? Oh okay!

[(PSN)IroncladBomber]

Rivens are an annoying RNG mixed with more RNG within RNG. But they aren't loot boxes, You can get them without Paying (Don't try and say "Well time is money", cause then EVERYTHING in this game is Loot Box, without 100% Drop chances.), they aren't Mandatory for progression, and in most cases you can simply Ignore then, they are just bonuses for a weapon.

As for the Riven Mafia? Don't buy Rivens, and if you want to, Haggle with them. If they don't give a fair deal just buy a Trash Roll and Farm the Kuva. 

The only Loot Boxes in the game are Mod Packs, and Nobody Buys those and DE has stated they wish to get Rid of them Soon TM. 

[Swagernator22663]

Yes.

[FlusteredFerret]

1 hour ago, (PS4)IroncladBomber said:

Rivens are an annoying RNG mixed with more RNG within RNG. But they aren't loot boxes, You can get them without Paying (Don't try and say "Well time is money", cause then EVERYTHING in this game is Loot Box, without 100% Drop chances.), they aren't Mandatory for progression, and in most cases you can simply Ignore then, they are just bonuses for a weapon.

As for the Riven Mafia? Don't buy Rivens, and if you want to, Haggle with them. If they don't give a fair deal just buy a Trash Roll and Farm the Kuva. 

The only Loot Boxes in the game are Mod Packs, and Nobody Buys those and DE has stated they wish to get Rid of them Soon TM. 

Well said. I made pretty much the same point in a similar thread.

 

Players only have themselves to blame for creating the market...deluding themselves that somehow rivens are vital for endgame content and they can't play without them.

Then they complain when unethical traders try to max their profit from these trades (probably the same kind of people that are into min-maxing and treating the game as a job).

 

[Alaeacus]

Rivens are Lootboxes.  Yes.

You don't pay for these lootboxes though. You pay for the slots to hold the lootbox rewards.  The monetization is just shifted to another spot.

DE says: You can earn these lootboxes in game, and get free gambled rewards from them.  However, you can only hold X amount of rewards at any given time.  If you want to hold more rewards at once, level your MR to a cap, and open your wallet after that.

They give you chances to get these lootboxes WAY before you reach a high MR, which 100% incentivizes you to open your wallet.

Of course, you can get Platinum in game without opening your wallet, so that's a plus. Your wallet is really just a shortcut for people who don't want to sink 1000 hours into a game before getting to a comfortable place.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Alaeacus

[R353ARCH]

No because you can't purchase rivens from DE.

It's RNG like every other drop on the game, only you have additional chances to reroll or trade.

If this were an offline game, you just wouldn't be able to trade them, and I don't think any part of that would make Australian legislators upset.

It's just like calling boss drops loot boxes; even could say catching the common cold is a loot box at this point

[Gentleman_Bird]

I'm gonna say no. You can't buy Rivens from DE, and your can't buy the Kuva needed to reroll rivens. If you take part in riven rerolling, the only thing you're gambling is your time. When you purchase an unveiled riven from another player, you know exactly what you're getting. The only thing that might be considered loot box-y is buying veiled rivens from other players and then unveiling them to try to make a profit. However, if you're looking for a riven for a specific weapon, you always have the option to outright buy that riven from another player. Depending on the player, that might encourage them to buy more plat to afford the riven they want, but players always have the option to trade their way up to get what they want.

[Blatantfool]

You don't buy Rivens from DE. You don't buy Riven rerolls with plat.

 Rivens aren't like lootboxes.

[Arniox]

18 hours ago, Fishyflakes said:

Yeah so Rivens are the slot machine and Kuva is the casino coins basically.

So all those people who buy every Prime Access can do something with the thousands of plat they aquire AS WELL AS give those riven mafia guys a way to make thousands of plat too.

I have 10s of thousands of plat from prime access but I don't go around buying rivens because I think personally, they're boring and massively over priced. I have about 10 rivens I haven't even unlocked yet cause I can't be stuffed. 

Rivens in general are not a bad thing, or a bad idea. I just find them personally quite boring. 

[GrimAtrament]

It doesnt cost plat so no not really.

[FlyingDice]

Not even slightly. That you think so suggests to me that you've not played any games that rely on gacha mtx.

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

With the logic in this thread me turning on my Xbox is a lootbox as it's RNG whether I will have fun or not today on my game. Or even waking up is a lootbox because it will be RNG if I'll wake up tomorrow in a good or bad mood!

[Chappie]

A loot box is typically defined as you having paying real $ for something with no guaranteed result.   If I buy a riven from somebody....I know exactly what I got.  If DE changes the dispo, I know exactly how much it will change each time (1 pip at most per quarter).   If I want a better roll I must farm the kuva (I cannot buy it).  

In less than a 3/4 YEAR the power of rivens will normalize to what they were intended to do; we already had 2 adjustments.   Thus having any sort of argument of what happened prior to about 3 months ago is sorta academic at best.   The peak price of rivens are falling flat out.   The nominal rubico before the dispo change was 1800 plat..and now it is down to 1200 and falling.    But even the soma rivens which I could snag for 50p have gone up because the disp has gone up.  Simply put..the new system is WORKING!   Rivens are now becoming, IMO, what they were intended to be..an end game time sink of novelty.    

Note: Before the new updates of rivens...I could barely keep a supply of kuva...now I have over 500k sitting idle.   The "power creep" they once asymmetrically and almost seemly randomly provided is going away.  That..IMO..is a good thing.  

Edited April 8, 2019 by Chappie1975

[SyBuhr]

19 hours ago, Eruyt said:

In light of the recent changes and work DE is putting on Riven Mods.

"We are going to try doing this because we think it will allow fairer trading to occur with a standard baseline. Because Rivens vary in stats, we expect subjective value discussions to still take place." (DE) Rebecca

It is clear that DE is woried/or concerned about how players are trading/useing/exploiting this system and is working towards a solution that is fair for the players and viable for the lifespawn of Warframe.

I would like to know what we (Tenno) think about this system and the monatization that is involved on it.

So my Questions are:

Do you consider the Riven Trade a form of monetization in Warframe?

Would you compare it to a loot box/gacha system? (what is a loot box?)

 

I AM NOT A MEMBER OF DE! I AM ONLY ASKING THESE QUESTIONS AS A TENNO!!! OUT OF CURIOSITY AND WILL TO KNOW WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THIS SUBJECT!!!THX!!!😘

 

Yes, anything that "randomizes" rewards is always going to be a lootbox gambling machine. Remember genetic prints? Same deal, only really that was for customization, and not for anything that changed or impacted gameplay.

 

They are concerned because (as usual) DE is slowly finding out that people are abusing the lack of reliable information on Rivens within the market, and thus abusing that by over-pricing rivens for hundreds of dollars. Because trade chat doesn't facilitate any information flow, outside of who is buying/selling/trading, a player cannot attain a reliable metric for making trading decisions. Trading is also slow, tedious, and sometimes frustrating, so sellers are going to want to sell for an insane amount just to make up the lost time.

Ultimately, this is because they left the trading system revision on the back-burner, opting instead to make it look pretty and pushing out much needed content updates. So long as there is no way for people to acquire reliable metrics, you'll see this concern continue to grow.

[Rakosta_Kai]

19 hours ago, Eruyt said:

Do you consider the Riven Trade a form of monetization in Warframe?

The fact that they are tradeable mean they are a form of potential monetization.

Likewise, it is entirely possible to with another player and no plat be involved at all.

19 hours ago, Eruyt said:

Would you compare it to a loot box/gacha system? (what is a loot box?)

No...

It can, of course, be treated that way by players opting to purchase unveiled Rivens though.

Absent that, either a player chose to spend plat to get the Riven they wanted from another player, they chose to sell a riven they didn't want to another player, or they chose to take their chances on the very long odds of finding the exact riven they wanted and then roll it to get their desired attributes and stats.

The system itself is more insidious than it is, necessarily, predatory per se.

Sadly, people do tend to make it predatory.

 

[(PSN)nekokujo]

18 hours ago, zoffmode said:

Yup. As someone who actually plays gacha games (without whaling), riven rolling definitely has the same feel and fun factor as gacha. It's actually technically worse than actual gacha games though since you can also sell your rivens for huge profit which makes it clear gambling. It's not even just Kuva. People straight up buy trash rivens and reroll them or buy veiled rivens and open them hoping for Rubicos. 

I do love my rivens and enjoy rolling them though. Big part of the game for me. I don't want them gone.

As someone did whale pretty hard in Puzzles & Dragons, I completely agree. There are so many important differences between rolling rivens and pulling gacha (as have been pointed out multiple times by multiple people), but it also just feels very similar... The visual effect, the audio effect, the big reveal, the feeling when you get that big score that feels like it changes everything...

[Lobosandia]

On 2019-04-08 at 12:30 AM, Zilchy said:

Pretty obvious they are selling plat for real money to players. There's no other reason to need hundreds of thousands of plat.

I agree. One of the Riven Mafia members posted a forum post for "good will" as a tutorial for how to read the new post DE made showing riven prices. I made a joke that the real mafia makes goodwill gestures to its community all the time while also ruining that community in the long run. That's how they run their PR.  He played the innocent card that they were only 10 people and couldn't manipulate the market because they are so few (classic). I argued that it was not correct because the market can easily be manipulated, especially with the tech savvy to use multiple bots. He deleted his post soon after (also classic).

The problem with this is in the system that DE controls.

Trade Chat is the primary way people are exposed to Riven prices. This means that 10 people could easily regularly post like those bots that say "Selling Rivens (emoticon emoticon) Lanka 210000p Tiberon 200000p" etc." Posting these enough times with gradually increasing prices over days or weeks causes other people to think they are missing out on the inflation and also want to sell for those prices. They are always ahead of the curve and make the plat to sell to players on 3rd party sites to make more real money.

Trade chat is inherently awful for creating transparency in a market because it's not easy to see patterns in prices in a chat box. There needs to be an alternative and restrictions on how people sell Rivens. I'm not sure what these could be per se, but I think as it stands trade chat is the reason the market is so easily manipulated even with websites like Semlar (the price tracker depends on trade chat anyway) and riven market (which I vehemently believe most players do not use).

BTW Semlar doesn't allow you to view price history for more than a specific window, so they are just as much at fault as the Riven Mafia in manipulating the market. The inflation can't be seen anywhere except by our perception that the prices are going up.

I've speculated that DE doesn't actively intervene in something that has clearly gone out of hand because there is money to be made in selling plat to people desperate to get their hands on a Lanka riven, but I sincerely hope that isn't the case.

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Lobosandia
Fixed a sentence

[-NightmareMoon-]

The problems with rivens is the disposition itself, if all the weapons had the same chance at getting stats people wont be paying ludacris amounts of money just because this X weapon have 5 disposition but this other cost less because X weapon have only 2.

here is the problem, RNG to get certain riven for X weapon, RNG to get desire stats, RNG to get specific desire stats, its just terrible, if we had the option to "LOCK" stats while we roll for new attributes it will mitigate the excruciating RNG and Kuva farming.

The riven is not a bad idea, but DE dig themselves in a hole by doing it so poorly.