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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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3 minutes ago, Chroia said:

Not sure if you're referring to the combos being in the new style, or to the combos themselves being the incentive.

I'd be surprised and impressed if they manage the latter, and the former is only incentive until Melee 3.0 is applied globally, so :/

Referring to the fact that from what I recall the stance is changing, and will have new attacks. Something something one attack will involve throwing the staff. Granted one of his combos currently also throws it, but only about 1m in front of him.

Could be we get forms of CC, or some degree of mobility via his attacks that make the staff worth using over a Zaw. I'm willing to wait and see on that front before providing feedback.

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Will Defy now work like Nezha's Warding Halo?

Personally I'm super anxious about losing his tanky ability.  Wisp is a stronger more survivable frame than most "tanks" in the game.

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When can we expect those changes going live, has there been an ETA for this? Something like, when he gets his Primed Version or end of the year or something?

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6 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Passive

  • 5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.
    1. Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
    2. Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
    3. Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
    4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
    5. Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds

 

I'm sorry extra loot drops sounds completely counter intuitive for this buff list. You mean I can potentially get more loots by suiciding twice before killing a boss? Make it something like all enemies killed drop life support/excavation batteries/salvage batteries

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Sounds like very solid rework to me.

Something I want to know about in an official capacity though, are Nezha & Wukong "un-prime-able" or will their prime versions be coming down the road?

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Why keep the freaking cloud ability the worst part of his current kit, at least iron jab did something. If anything let defy act as it does now and but make it work for the clone with some extra energy drain, would keep them both alive longer than the healing from the cloud. Also the type of healing isn't mentioned is it over time or instant flat amount of healing and does it affect only wukong and his clone and is it basically becoming a hydroid with his puddle augment. Just wish we could have changed the could into something else befitting an immortal monkey that took on heaven by himself and taking down 100,000 of it's soldiers, four heavenly kings, and Nezha. Just saying I expected cloud walker to be gutted then transplanted and defy to be left alone since of was fine how it was and the best of his abilities.

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6 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds

and Charm resource buff, GROFIT?

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Posted (edited)

I'm really not sure how to feel.  I've often felt like the only person in the whole game that plays Wukong, but you're getting rid of the primary ability I love him for (defy) and tweaking (possibly negatively) the other ability I really like (Primal fury).

These are my thoughts - 

Clone ... Thematically it's on point ... as a player I don't even give my companions useful weapons or use specters because I want to do the killing.  So this ability does not speak to me AT ALL.  

Defy - I'm the most anxious about this change because this is the main reason I play Wukong.  I've always thought it was a VERY fair ability.  In dangerous missions I'd have to find opportunities to cycle the ability safely or else I would die.   Yes it's possible to die - the enemy can and will widdle you down and even at times just blow you up. 
I suppose - If it works like Nezha's Warding Halo, I will probably be happy with it.  If it "works" like Chroma's Vex armor - Chroma has no survivability... then I will probably be disappointed... duration is also going to be a big factor here.  I see some build ideas in my head ... but he's going to be a hungry beast wanting too many different things to be useful (like Khora) depending on how you design this one ability.  

Cloud Walker - You took a crud ability and made it better ... probably still not very good ... /shrug ... looks like it'll be useful on spy missions now and healing speed will also be a big factor in how good it is for me.

Primal Fury - Why get rid of the growth? That was so cool and so thematically on point!!  That's a major disappointment.  Also PLEASE get rid of the stupid pogo-stick attacks - or at least make them actually useful and hit something.

Overall - I'm cautiously optimistic as there are some very good changes in here ... but that defy ... hrm ... 

Oh - the passive ... weird, but ... ok whatever ... kinda don't like the RNG attached to it.  I hope it comes with a super good feedback loop so I know when one got popped.

Edited by Haranthus
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Posted (edited)

I'll have to try these changes before I make a judgement call. I'm fine with the first ability as long as it buffs clone damage in the exact same way or better than Equinox's Defy augment does.

The only problem I have with this page is the idea that Enveloping cloud is not getting a buff. Literally all you have to change to make that augment good is to increase the range of effectiveness in a minor increment and make it not decloak allies when they attack and it'll be a solid alternative playstyle augment if not a game changer. Right now it's painful, probably the worst augment in the entire game.

Edited by WMan22

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2 hours ago, Giantconch said:

 

You've proved me right when I spoke of people using his 1-trick as a crutch. Thanks for admitting you use his invincibility as a crutch because you can't mod other frames.

I’m happy to admit that lvl 100 content that’s restricted on energy with enemies that can 1 shot most of my frame is hard no prob bro and thanks for agreeing that Inaros atm is as useful as dirt since you never denied me

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New iteration of the rework looks pretty good.

Celestial Twin - wukong finally gets his clone and as expected everyone is skeptical about the AI behavior, well I am too. Can I lend him my secondary so he can rain concealed explosives upon everything or pox for status?

Cloudwalker - more mobility is always good. Can we revise the augment from making allies invisible to ailments healed or immune to status procs? Maybe give him some support play in eidolons? 

Defy - so we are moving toward a nyx absorb and people are pointing out the reflect poor scaling in higher level missions.  There is also the potential of using defy is just suicidal in high level missions if the invincibility window is very tight or the surrounding enemies dont get knock back. Can we move toward a harrow convenant buff where damage absorb scales to a damage buff? Not very thematic I guess. 

Primal Fury - looking forward to the combo changes maybe we eventually get a devil may cry melee system. Maybe we can get a condition overload crit build going if we invest enough into iron staff build?

Passive - alright cool you are giving us 3 extra lifes. I see a problem of the passive becoming non-existent in endurance runs. Can we trade the random buffs for a regenerative life? i.e. max. 3 extra lifes. Less than 3 lifes, you generate an extra life every 5 minutes. 

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This looks suspect.  There are so many questions.  Let's start from the bottom.

Passive:  This is wildly inconsistent and unreliable.  You can't expect any one of the 5 buffs to happen at any time with any degree of predictability and you only have 3 uses per mission.  That means that longer missions will actually be detrimental to the kit as a whole.  Most importantly, it doesn't affect how you build or play the frame in the slightest because it's so inconsistent and unreliable.   Yes, you can get some nice crazy buffs out of it.  But those buffs are fleeting and again totally unpredictable.  Do your 3 charges reset if you die and revive or is it only 3 per mission total?  Will monkey luck stack with desecrate or charm?  Can heavenly cloak be nullified or broken by attacking?  What's the point of any of these on-death buffs when Wukong's supposed to be a tank that is nearly impossible to kill in the first place?  It sounds like your kit's not working if you ever have this triggered by anything other than self damage.  I could understand if you made it similar to Nidus's Undying, with the rest of the kit fueling the death defying passive.  That would be thematically appropriate and great imo.  But this is disconnected from the entirety of his kit, artificially limited by a 3 count, and at worst totally random.

Celestial Twin: This is a great concept, but leaves some questions with regards to how it will behave and interact with Wukong's other skills.  Assuming that it's standard specter AI, it will likely have a very hard time using charge and alt fire mechanics on most weapons.  Will it be able to handle glaives and gunblades?  What happens to the clone when you use cloudwalker?  Will the clone favor particular, functional combos while using Primal Fury(something that groups up enemies vs something that flings them into the distance)?  Why does the clone use the staff at the same time as you if it's just going to be stealing combo hits and interfering with your melee by knocking enemies away?  If I activate primal fury and then quick swap to a gun, is the clone gonna stay in primal fury, or will it swap to something else?

Cloud Walker:  Sounds like a decent buff, but there are some questions of what's going on under the hood.  The demonstration GIF in the post shows literally nothing but the shortened animation.  Are "dazed and paralyzed" enemies opened to stealth and finisher damage?  Does the ability still have the aoe stagger effect when you leave it?  How fast are we talking?  Is it still going to drain ep/s and ep/meter?  What happens to your clone while you're using this?  What happens if you use this during Defy?  Why no graphical improvement on this skill?  While it's great that this skill is being brought up to snuff as far as stealth skills go, it shouldn't be done at the expense of his tanking skills.  Thematically, Wukong is just about the best warrior ever.  He's not a rogue or assassin.  He should be able to stand toe to toe with anyone without relying on stealth.

Defy:  I'm not gonna argue that the old defy was amazing or whatever, but this new defy looks very underwhelming.  It's functionally almost the same as the old Absorb, except you get an armor buff from it afterwards.  Reflecting enemy damage back at them, or redirecting it with multipliers has never ever worked in this game because the enemy scaling is so out of whack.  If enemies are dealing 50 damage per hit, but have 2 million health each, then no absorb and reflect skill is ever going to make for interesting or fun damage dealing.  It'll feel weak, slow, and flimsy because it is.  To add to that, an aoe taunt with a very limited duration invulnerability window is not going to work well or consistently given how AI controls targeting and attacking.  You can be surrounded by 15 enemies, and at any moment no more than 3 or 4 of them are shooting.  You can also taunt an enemy, and you'll move to the top of their target list just as they decide to go hide behind a box.  The example GIF shows a 2 second cast time, during which you can't use any weapons and can only move at half speed. That's a very short window to absorb as much damage you can for the sake of fueling an aoe attack and bolstering your armor, though I'm sure it'll be affected by duration.  But who wants to stand around for 6 seconds, not being able to do anything?  Nyx requires minutes of absorption before she can deal half-decent damage to high-level enemies.  2 seconds is gonna make for a weak fart of an attack, meaning that entire aspect of the skill will be completely ignored by players.  Then there are teammate effects that can over-ride the taunt.  How will it play with an ally using guardian derision, or an assimilate nyx who always has elevated threat?  How will the armor conversion rate work, how long will it last, and is it recastable while the armor buff is still active?  Adaptation will significantly reduce the absorbed damage and therefore the armor gained and damage done by the skill.  Since the damage return portion is a staff attack, will it scale with the melee combo counter?  Is the damage return strictly a radial attack that will totally whiff enemies above and below the player?

Primal Fury:  You seem to want players swapping back and forth between their staff and their guns often, and have made numerous changes that reflect that.  But, those changes ignore the fact that you can now instantly swap between exalted weapons and guns without deactivating the exalted weapon or losing your combo.  The energy cost of activating it is lower, but the drain is higher.  That's the opposite of what actual quick-swap gun and sword play requires.  You want to activate the melee ability, leave it active so you don't lose the exalted melee combo counter, and use the quick swap function to fire your guns when needed.  You don't want to waste time recasting and uncasting the exalted melee all the time, especially since you can get in and out of it by simply aiming or quick meleeing.  This all applies to the staff range, as well.  Since you don't need to deactivate the staff in order to shoot your guns, you never lose your combo and therefore never need to build the range up again.  Setting the range of the staff to a constant "high end zaw" range makes it no longer interesting or unique.  It's literally just another staff now, except it costs energy and can't use interesting mods like body count and blood rush.  All of the other exalted melees do something unique, be it send out high-range waves or grant invincibility or absurd damage or whatever.  While yes, redistributing his damage to include higher status chance for condition overload is great, it's not going to be an interesting ability if all it is is a standard staff (that also forces your clone to use a staff at the same time).  A better option as far as range is concerned would be to uncap the range of the staff like that old fuzzy chinaframe video of Wukong on Draco with a 40m range staff tearing everything apart.  Oh look, I found it:

 wHkLjkc.gif 

Allow the staff to reach mythical ranges with the help of the combo meter, and it'll be a fun time for everyone.  Incentivize the player for keeping the staff active rather than constantly recasting, since it's draining your energy the whole time as is.  Let the clone add to the combo counter and continue using the staff while you swap to your gun.

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As someone that enjoys playing Wukong these changes seem interesting but like everyone says I would have to try them in game to get a better understanding of the changes

I have also been working on my own rework ideas which are based on the character of Sun Wukong (link below) 

I am always still finding things to add or change so I am not saying this is the best rework concept but more of a template of ideas

All I hope for is that DE could use this as a template to extract some ideas that may not stick with there current rework design

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4 hours ago, Darkvramp said:

thats not how this works..... things have to be worth a mod slot. it gets the mod used , it lets the augment have a place. it also leaves less room for snide remarks like this. be nice ( or try too)

I was being very nice. I didn't accuse anyone of making snide remarks or anything... Unlike you.

I personally like the augment as is especially with this rework, could be a fun addition.

However if they changed it to lower enemy accuracy or increase ally evasion that would work as well.

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5 hours ago, ColdCremator said:

Granted, the ability to avoid death 3 times per mission while also gaining a substantial buff in return sounds nice on paper, but the simple fact that it has a set duration really kills it as a useful passive. Why would you want to make use of it and how would you be able to make good use of it if you can neither predict when such a buff would be useful, control in most cases when you take fatal damage and can't control what buff you get in the first place? Plus, you only get 3 procs per mission so it's safe to assume the passive does not refresh when you die for real and revive. Essentially, if this passes you will essentially have no passive at some point while you play, unlike literally every other Warframes whose passives, each with their different effects and activation requirements, are always present and usable, even something as useless as Mag's passive and that's saying something.

 

They should be changed so it is a permanent buff for the rest of the mission, even when killed and revived, and should be balanced accordingly if necessary. However, I do believe that all buffs are cleansed on death so the above is not possible. The best workaround would be to allow the passive to "recharge" on death and give its 3 still random buffs on proc. You wouldn't always get Primal Forces or Monkey Luck even if it happened on your first life, in this case.

Sly Alchemy is fine as is imo but if not, reduce value to 2x and remove duration. Monkey Luck, same deal but no listed value so let's just say it doubles loot and call it a day. Cosmic Armour should be damage reduction, maybe 50% would be fine. Primal Forces could be lowered to either 2x elemental damage or 1.5x elemental damage, the latter being the lowest it should go. Heavenly Cloak is a big, gray area cuz we can't do perma invis for obvious reasons, however any number of buffs could be used as a replacement that it's hard to say what it should be.

 

Only things I'd say should be changed is that Defy should have a longer active time than 2 seconds and Defying damage should also restore Wukong and clone's health to full, and maybe also give them both health regen for a duration. I doubt the staff spin will hit through walls, although I would be pleasantly surprised if it did, and the hitbox may be too low and narrow for it to impact what it should if we assume it follow's the staff's hitbox and placement. When the rework was first discussed I originally thought that Defy's damage reflection would apply to any and all who were taunted and/or hit Wukong and Clone in the ability time window regardless of location or placement, which sounded niche but nice and possibly reliable. This, however, does not look reliable or useful anymore.

 

I think this is counter intuitive. Baruuk's Serene Storm is an excellent example of the perfect channel ability because it really can be activated w/ little Restraint cost for cast and drain. Besides, Iron Staff already only costs 25 energy to cast and 3 e/s to maintain, comparable to Excalibur and Valkyr's 4s which are 25 and 2.5 e/s. I could only assume otherwise that the cast cost was reduced to 0 and the drain increased to 4-6 e/s, because that would have had to be the case to fit the wording above. I would hope for this to be the case. I would be highly against the potentiality of Primal Fury's drain acting identical to Hysteria, because such a mechanic is much too punishing and undesirable for the player.

With these new changes to Primal Fury, I now believe that Primal Rage should be integrated into the base ability and a new augment for Primal Fury should be developed. Even with the damage redistribution, it would be contending with most other Exalted weaponry that deal the same base damage as it. Exalibur and Baruuk both have the base weapon and energy waves with innate punch through through all terrain, Serene Storm and Hysteria have 50% CC and  Hysteria has lifesteal, Serene Storm's waves can benefit from the combo multiplier and Exalted Blade can most easily utilize Condition Overload. Currently, Workshop Primal Fury only has potentially high status chance and high range as its attributes, not being all that unique.

 

Lastly, will Cloud Walker be able to benefit from sprint mods and other speed modifiers to enhance its movement speed?

 

We will definitely need to see this Revisit in action, but based on what is written here these are my thoughts on the matter.

Useful... Passive... Very few frames have useful passives. This passive, stacked with revives and arcane revives seems incredibly useful.

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Overall I think you've succeeded in at least one part of the rework, you got me interesting in playing Wukong again. I know people like god-mode but honestly it's kinda boring so I'm down to try his new kit, even the passive part that lets us still keep the taste of the old defy. The thing I think will make it or break it for me is his ult combos.  I disliked when I played Wukong that the combos would often involve taking his staff and slaming it right in front of him like a hammer.  It really took this weapon which is known for it length and made if feel short ranged.  Ultimately, I'm hoping the new combo inputs will at least make it easier to switch it up.

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I really dont like RNG on characters, sounds bad, why not a chargeble passive that makes you gain buffs and preventes lethal dmg as long as you play with him? Like using abilities or doing damage. Wukong now IS immortal, we are losing this Immortality to have extra revives basically.

 

The kit is actually good, just change the passive to look more rewarding playing this warframe.

 

So, any changes to Atlas? maybe a buff to his passive armor?

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I liked wukong for long time but yes im not using because i use others.

 

Trinity , Nova (No more) , Rhino , Revenant and now Baruuk & Wisp.

 

Wating The Hype. 🙂

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