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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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Posted (edited)

I guess I'll throw in my two cents on the rework, as someone who has recently got pretty into Wukong due to nullifiers, CC immunity, and things hitting through the rift ruining everything when I try to play limbo *RARGH*... *ahem*, yeah, rework opinions

Celestial Twin

I think this sounds pretty good. Thematic, neat idea, I just hope mr.clone's Twokong's AI isn't too dense, but I guess we'll have to wait and see on that one.

Defy

As someone who is useless and dies constantly in level 30 missions, I'll miss old Defy, it was a glorious bit of idiot-proofing that let me get away with my uselessness and mistakes... that said, if I disregard the self-deprecation, I'm still not sure I like this new Defy. It seems the idiot-proofing is gone (mostly, some of it has gone into the passive I guess), to be replaced with some weird Covenant/Absorb hybrid, and something that's going to be meh/useless unless you spam it, but if you spam it it's going to eat up the energy you want to use for keeping Primal Fury active... for me personally, it's just going to be one of those abilities that's like "oh that exists" that won't get used often, but like everything else, will have to wait and see... though my current impression is that I'd like to see something more interesting done with Defy.

Cloudwalker

No complaints really, it felt bad before, it just seems like it'll be better with these changes, though yes, attacking not cancelling the invisibility from the augment would be nice, that augment is kind of potato at the moment because of that, at least in my opinion.

Primal Fury

Bleh... some of these changes sound nice, like the stat buffs and the not locking movement while casting thing... but I really don't like the making the range fixed and removing the extending with combo thing - as it is now, sure it makes the staff feel a bit weak at first, but for me it creates a kind of engaging experience where I want to hound enemies down and hit them with my stick to keep it extended... but making the range fixed and removing that interaction just takes that experience away, in my opinion it's just going to make the ability less unique, a lot more plain, and less engaging to use. I think it'd be better to just buff the minimum and maxium ranges of it, and make the combo-gives-length something tied to the ability instead, like making the length extention keep as long as the Primal Fury ability is active or something.

Also, as a personal note, I'd really like if Iron Vault, the old augment for Iron Jab is integrated into the moveset for Primal Fury... like making looking down and meleeing boop you into the sky like Iron Vault did. I know almost the same effect can be achieved by just bullet jumping upwards, but to me Iron Vault is just a fun thing to use, it'd be a shame to lose the fun of it entirely just because the base ability is being removed

Passive

I guess this is where old Defy moved to? It's nice to have its spirit lingering, though I'm unsure about the randomness of the buffs - maybe let us pick 3 buffs in the arsenal which can randomly proc instead of making which procs you can get random on mission start?

Edited by MoonYuTsu
Added pun, clarified somethig in Primal Fury section
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Posted (edited)

THIS.

I.

LIKE.

Just skimmed and I'm on board, at long last I won't have to make a genuine (and very draining) effort to like Wukong. Can't wait to play with this!

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

To celebrate the changes, all players who currently own Wukong will receive 3 Forma!

 ilyall

Edited by LazerSkink

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Shield will be decreased from 125 to 100 (at max rank decreased from 375 to 300).

  • Why? Since Wukong’s new kit now involves an armour buff, relying more on his health will enable a better synergy.

 

Buff shields....

 

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Celestial Twin

Does the clone weapons inherit weapon mods? Duration based? Channeling based? How are we supposed to get a good handle on how the ability works if you guys insist on leaving out so much critical info?

Here's hoping for some AI improvements. At the very least let us customize that enemies our summons will prioritize automatically. If there's a nullifier or ancient around I want those dead first without having to stop what I'm doing to point and click.

Warframe desperately needs someone at competent AI design. I'm going to laugh if the day of release videos pop up of the melee clone suiciding into nullifiers because the player accidentally pulled out a gun.

I can see this going two ways. The clone is dumb as balls and everyone now runs the staticor, catchmoon, or some other OP AOE weapon in it, or the clone is an aimbot.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Cloud Walker

Sounds good. Didnt it also come with a crit buff?

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Defy

  • Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.

Not encouraging. No scaling means the damage component of this quickly becomes negligible. Highly recommend the damage confers some multiplier type to Wukong's moddable exalted staff which is used for this atttack. At the very least armor buff sounds good.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Primal Fury

  • Primal Fury will feature a new specialized and streamlined combo for Wukong’s legendary Iron Staff. As a preview of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system, Wukong’s Primal Fury uses new combo routes with simplified inputs providing a safe, limited space to try out coming releases.

Sounds good. Looking forward to a taste of 3.0.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Passive

  • 5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.

That's interesting. The buffs sound strong. So good job with that.

How does it work though? Activate on hitting 0 HP? If so then what is the interaction with arbitrations and instant death nades? How often can it activate? Will the player be able to chain frag themselves 3 times in a row and still live?

WIth such short duration buffs I highly recommend a way for Wukong to be able to slowly regenerate "lives". You guys have a scoring system in the simulacrum. Just put one in the background and once the player hits a certain "score" they get another life up to holding a max of 4 or 5.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds

This does not belong in the buff rotation. Change it to something like guaranteed red crits or guaranteed 100% status chance. All of the other buffs are powerful short term combat buffs. A loot buff is completely out of place. Besides, the duration and frequency are short to do much of anything and if you make it long enough to matter people are going to purposely suicide to try to fish for the buff.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Augments

  • Celestial Twin Augment: Replacing Iron Vault, Wukong will command his clone to perform a wide radius slam, suspending enemies.
  • Enveloping Cloud: No planned changes.
  • Primal Rage: Increased cap from 100 to 150%, increased bonus per kill from 10% to 15%. Drain now scales with duration, so the higher Wukong’s duration, the slower it drains, and when Wukong gets a kill the drain stops for 5 seconds.

Celestial Twin and Enveloping cloud augs not worth the slot. Your augment designers need to get it in their little brains that augments are competing with other mods for a slot. They dont exist in a vacuum.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

*Wukong will be disabled in Conclave after his Revisit has launched until the team can properly balance him for the Conclave gamemode.

Here's an idea. What if.. what if the weapons and warframe in the game mode the vast majority of the player base plays got regular numbers tweaks instead of the tacked on PvP mode that you wont even pay for dedicated servers for?

Edited by ADirtyMonk
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Just now, LazerSkink said:

at long last I won't have to make a genuine (and very draining) effort to like Wukong.

Don't lie LazerSink. I know you love me.

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Don't lie LazerSink. I know you love me.

 

ye i just have trouble expressing my feelings bruv ❤️😁

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Passive still needs further rework/clarification. If it is limited to 3 uses per mission that is a no go for endless runs. Can you just make it that it build stacks and every time it goes to 0 a stack is consumed. I have no problem with random buffs on use. But put it a stack regen once ever 3-5 minutes maybe? Capping at 3 stacks or something? With maybe 60-90 seconds of downtime before a new stack can kick in? Please make it at least Phenix Renewal Oberon level of skill. Don't just kill it right of the start for people who actually go deeper into endless missions. 

Otherwise you are cool. Keep up the great work.

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12 minutes ago, Venatorio said:

 - his 2 now requires you to spam the ability. It’s literally all other survival abilities, but worse. Why spam 2, when you could... oh, I dunno... just kill the enemy shooting you?

I don't understand the spam part. I could be wrong but for what i read you click it and you turn into the cloud, healing yourself. Paired with an Umbral Vitality, Hunter Adrenaline and the health buff from base stats while not exciting it is useful.

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Just now, Evhel.nVbs said:

I don't understand the spam part. I could be wrong but for what i read you click it and you turn into the cloud, healing yourself. Paired with an Umbral Vitality, Hunter Adrenaline and the health buff from base stats while not exciting it is useful.

They mean Defy, which was his 2.

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Posted (edited)

RIP defy... gain armor tho?? Might as well gave him straight up damage reduction then. Armor only goes but so far in the long run.

Edited by (PS4)Dyin-Kyo
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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

They mean Defy, which was his 2.

Ohh, mb then.

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3 minutes ago, Didoguard said:

Passive still needs further rework/clarification. If it is limited to 3 uses per mission that is a no go for endless runs. Can you just make it that it build stacks and every time it goes to 0 a stack is consumed. I have no problem with random buffs on use. But put it a stack regen once ever 3-5 minutes maybe? Capping at 3 stacks or something? With maybe 60-90 seconds of downtime before a new stack can kick in? Please make it at least Phenix Renewal Oberon level of skill. Don't just kill it right of the start for people who actually go deeper into endless missions. 

Otherwise you are cool. Keep up the great work.

I like this guy idea lol

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

 

Oh yeah, because 5 seconds combo instead of 3 made such a huge difference in endurance runs, especially whilst using a gun.

Honestly I kinda like the rework except for the passive. Mind you I agree that is way better than the old one but I always compare one frame to another especially when they can do something similar, case in point Nidus. Tentacle frame can regenerate AND be immortal, sure it needs to be charged with stacks but, imho obviously, it still feels like "I can do anything you can but better".

I still take this over what we have now. Guess we will soon buy the new deluxe skin too ^^

Edited by Olphalarepth
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Posted (edited)
3 часа назад, [DE]SpaceySarah сказал:

Defy

  • Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.
  • Based on the amount of damage prevented by Defy, Wukong and his clone will receive a temporary armour buff.
  • Press ability again to trigger spin early.

Reasons for changes: Previously, Defy’s invulnerability was not very interactive. This change features invulnerability while encouraging more tactical, active, and interesting gameplay techniques. As many of us used Defy to be immortal, it simply was too much of a set-it-and-forget it ability. Changing it to still offer invulnerability is important to us, and strengthening the rest of his Abilities makes up for the loss of complete god mode.

 

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Nerf one useful ability (like a tanky frame)... It's sad, but no problem, Inaros your time has come!

Edited by Lored

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2 minutes ago, Lored said:

Nerf one useful ability... It's sad, but no problem, Inaros your time has come!

I'm trading over to revenant. 1shotting everything and immortal.

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Posted (edited)

This new clone of his. Can we manually get rid of it? I'd like to in order to get in Spy mission rooms and NOT alert enemies. Like, does it decay health like Nekro's shadows?

Also, can we get the augment effect of Iron Vault kept in some way? I'd like to have the Arca Titron + Iron Vault combo available for some dumb fun.

Edit: Tried him out, monkey boy's fantastic now. Pablo did it again. 

And yeah, apparently you CAN dismiss the clone manually by holding the ability button instead of tapping it. That is excellent, thank you very much for that.

But muh Arca Titron + Iron Vault combo, tho....

Edited by Zoh_Veldae
Post-update
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7 minutes ago, Evhel.nVbs said:

I don't understand the spam part. I could be wrong but for what i read you click it and you turn into the cloud, healing yourself. Paired with an Umbral Vitality, Hunter Adrenaline and the health buff from base stats while not exciting it is useful.

Yup. How this ability will work at high levels: 

 

you get shot a few times. So now you activate your 2, heal some, deal paltry damage cuz reflection is a joke, then the ability ends. Alright, the enemies that were shooting you are still there, still shooting you. So you have to use your 2 again. Rinse and repeat, the enemies are not CC’d not killed. 

 

The old Defy let you just not die, but gives the ability for you to actually retaliate. It was boring and uninteresting, but it did its job.

 

Alternatively, like most high level players with double Magus Arcanes, you spam 5 a bunch which gives you invuln frames, maybe you dash to safety, and now you’re also healed to full. Costs 0 energy, is super fast, gives you an escape. Again: why would you use the Newkong’s 2?

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3 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Press ability again to trigger spin early.

In my opinion his defy should'nt be a nyx type of damage absorption, cause reduced movement speed and as far as i can see from the preview, you wont be able to attack at all while in there makes it just another oh S#&$ button that you press when you are in trouble, while it should be like harrow's, where he turns it on, absorbs the damage and gets a buff afterwards.

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Seems to me DE is following up on the work they did with Wisp.

I love that there is a emphasis on giving the warframe more features. So. consider me won over at the moment. I love Wisp and I love that Wukong appears to be getting so many different things.

 

This has me excited for Vaubaun (Oh boy dont get me too excited!)

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56 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Rev and valkyr are not remotely ruined if you know how to mod. 

There is a difference between Being playable and being good 

Valkyr got better because of melee 2.7 but still not as good as she was after her first rework and still exal umbra is better since he has way more range and use less energy

Revenant is just not relavent compared to mesa which has a better damage reduction more damaging ultimate and almost half the energy cost with similar mobility with the augment 

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1 minute ago, Venatorio said:

Yup. How this ability will work at high levels: 

 

you get shot a few times. So now you activate your 2, heal some, deal paltry damage cuz reflection is a joke, then the ability ends. Alright, the enemies that were shooting you are still there, still shooting you. So you have to use your 2 again. Rinse and repeat, the enemies are not CC’d not killed. 

 

The old Defy let you just not die, but gives the ability for you to actually retaliate. It was boring and uninteresting, but it did its job.

 

Alternatively, like most high level players with double Magus Arcanes, you spam 5 a bunch which gives you invuln frames, maybe you dash to safety, and now you’re also healed to full. Costs 0 energy, is super fast, gives you an escape. Again: why would you use the Newkong’s 2?

This isnt going to work in a long run... Trying to take hit no matter how high your health armor or whatever will eventually get u killed. This is a joke lol.

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certainly sounds more involved than the current Wukong. will have to see how this works out on higher levels, though, as i feel like his clone would die pretty fast once it draws fire, requiring you to either use Defy and Cloud Walker very frequently or just dump the clone. but idk. probably still more interesting than current Wukong, although his quasi god mode can be fun at times

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I am looking forward to the changes. Already planning what mods to use.

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Posted (edited)

Celestial Twin:

Looks fine but it depends on the answer to the following,

  • Does the clone get a copy of your weapons with ALL the mods?

If it does not then I don't think it will be a very good ability. It can't even be a good distraction because it will probably get itself killed very fast.

Cloud walker:

Very good changes especially that it heals yourself AND the clone. How useful this will be though depends on how much healing you get. Whether it is percentage based or flat, it should not take you out of the battle for too long please. My only suggestion for the augment is to allow healing allies as well.

Defy:

I don't really like "take damage to get buffed" type of abilities. The invulnerability and the taunt may change this. Again this could be a good or bad ability.

  • What is the damage taken to armor received ratio?
  • Is the armor additive or multiplicative?
  • How hard of a taunt is it? Will it make ALL enemies in range focus on you and shoot you? 
  • Is the amount of damage taken reduced by things like armor and adaptation? This could lower how much armor you get and how much damage you deal.
  • What is the range of the taunt?
  • How long is the armor buff for? Why is there a duration in the first place? Won't that make it kind of tedious and not very fun having to reapply all the time?
  • Does the taunt make enemies target yourself and the clone? If it does then is the TOTAL damage taken by BOTH converted to armor, or is it just the damage taken by yourself?
  • What is the damage distribution of the spin attack? Is it additive to your base damage and then your mods like base damage and elementals scale off that? Please make it this way. Enemy EHP scales way faster compared to their damage and this part of the ability wont be very useful unless it scales with equipped mods.

Primal Fury:

Good changes, I just hope the drain is not too high.

 

Passive:

Is it truly a passive it will eventually be gone? Please allow it to refresh after 5 minutes or something and be able to reduce that time by killing enemies with his 4th ability.

Edited by Orokin
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34 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No it doesn't.

Oh yeah, because 5 seconds combo instead of 3 made such a huge difference in endurance runs, especially whilst using a gun.

Indeed my friend. I was interested in your opinion. Have been waiting patiently for you to post. Im sure there will need to be tweaks, but until u guys on pc actually get the rework... The only thing we can really do is be optimistic.

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