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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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Posted (edited)

As his passive is now its only 3 levels of immortality, not 5.

Should have him find lucky red envelopes as he kills stuff and after he gets enough he gets a passive charge holding up to 5 at a time.

Edited by (PS4)naterik

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

This isnt going to work in a long run... Trying to take hit no matter how high your health armor or whatever will eventually get u killed. This is a joke lol.

Yes. That was exactly my point. That newkong’s 2 is bad. Thanks?

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)MJ-Cena7 said:

There is a difference between Being playable and being good 

Valkyr got better because of melee 2.7 but still not as good as she was after her first rework and still exal umbra is better since he has way more range and use less energy

Revenant is just not relavent compared to mesa which has a better damage reduction more damaging ultimate and almost half the energy cost with similar mobility with the augment 

Revenant basically immortal. I have no survivability mods and u really cant die unless u cant maintain your mesmer skin and revenant also 1shots everything basically. But it's only useful in very high levels where it takes too long to kill. Like using covert lethality in a way... Pointless in lower lvls godly in high lvls 

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10 minutes ago, (PS4)MJ-Cena7 said:

There is a difference between Being playable and being good 

Valkyr got better because of melee 2.7 but still not as good as she was after her first rework and still exal umbra is better since he has way more range and use less energy

Revenant is just not relavent compared to mesa which has a better damage reduction more damaging ultimate and almost half the energy cost with similar mobility with the augment 

Rev is not relevant compared to mesa? Thats an idiodic comparison considering they are two completely different frames lol.

Thats like saying Rhino isnt relevant compared to Zephyr hahahaha

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2 hours ago, Sannidor said:

One thing I like very much about current Wukong is reliable not dying.

I guess I will like new Wukong much less.

To the point of trying his new kit and allow him to gather space dust.

Like Ember.

And Nezha.

And Titania.

And Baruuk.

And Garuda.

And Khora.

And Vauban.

And Zephyr.

And Hildryn.

And Wisp.

:awkward:

What you say about my boy nezha and reliably not dying?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Passive

5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.

  1. Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
  2. Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
  3. Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
  4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
  5. Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds

 

Granted, the ability to avoid death 3 times per mission while also gaining a substantial buff in return sounds nice on paper, but the simple fact that it has a set duration really kills it as a useful passive. Why would you want to make use of it and how would you be able to make good use of it if you can neither predict when such a buff would be useful, control in most cases when you take fatal damage and can't control what buff you get in the first place? Plus, you only get 3 procs per mission so it's safe to assume the passive does not refresh when you die for real and revive. Essentially, if this passes you will essentially have no passive at some point while you play, unlike literally every other Warframes whose passives, each with their different effects and activation requirements, are always present and usable, even something as useless as Mag's passive and that's saying something.

 

They should be changed so it is a permanent buff for the rest of the mission, even when killed and revived, and should be balanced accordingly if necessary. However, I do believe that all buffs are cleansed on death so the above is not possible. The best workaround would be to allow the passive to "recharge" on death and give its 3 still random buffs on proc. You wouldn't always get Primal Forces or Monkey Luck even if it happened on your first life, in this case.

Sly Alchemy is fine as is imo but if not, reduce value to 2x and remove duration. Monkey Luck, same deal but no listed value so let's just say it doubles loot and call it a day. Cosmic Armour should be damage reduction, maybe 50% would be fine. Primal Forces could be lowered to either 2x elemental damage or 1.5x elemental damage, the latter being the lowest it should go. Heavenly Cloak is a big, gray area cuz we can't do perma invis for obvious reasons, however any number of buffs could be used as a replacement that it's hard to say what it should be.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:
  • Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.
  • Based on the amount of damage prevented by Defy, Wukong and his clone will receive a temporary armour buff.

Only things I'd say should be changed is that Defy should have a longer active time than 2 seconds and Defying damage should also restore Wukong and clone's health to full, and maybe also give them both health regen for a duration. I doubt the staff spin will hit through walls, although I would be pleasantly surprised if it did, and the hitbox may be too low and narrow for it to impact what it should if we assume it follow's the staff's hitbox and placement. When the rework was first discussed I originally thought that Defy's damage reflection would apply to any and all who were taunted and/or hit Wukong and Clone in the ability time window regardless of location or placement, which sounded niche but nice and possibly reliable. This, however, does not look reliable or useful anymore.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Primal Fury

Casting no longer holds Wukong in place. With new energy requirements, the cast cost of Primal Fury was lowered but cast drain was increased to be turned off and on as desired.

I think this is counter intuitive. Baruuk's Serene Storm is an excellent example of the perfect channel ability because it really can be activated w/ little Restraint cost for cast and drain. Besides, Iron Staff already only costs 25 energy to cast and 3 e/s to maintain, comparable to Excalibur and Valkyr's 4s which are 25 and 2.5 e/s. I could only assume otherwise that the cast cost was reduced to 0 and the drain increased to 4-6 e/s, because that would have had to be the case to fit the wording above. I would hope for this to be the case. I would be highly against the potentiality of Primal Fury's drain acting identical to Hysteria, because such a mechanic is much too punishing and undesirable for the player.

With these new changes to Primal Fury, I now believe that Primal Rage should be integrated into the base ability and a new augment for Primal Fury should be developed. Even with the damage redistribution, it would be contending with most other Exalted weaponry that deal the same base damage as it. Exalibur and Baruuk both have the base weapon and energy waves with innate punch through through all terrain, Serene Storm and Hysteria have 50% CC and  Hysteria has lifesteal, Serene Storm's waves can benefit from the combo multiplier and Exalted Blade can most easily utilize Condition Overload. Currently, Workshop Primal Fury only has potentially high status chance and high range as its attributes, not being all that unique.

 

Lastly, will Cloud Walker be able to benefit from sprint mods and other speed modifiers to enhance its movement speed?

 

We will definitely need to see this Revisit in action, but based on what is written here these are my thoughts on the matter.

Edited by ColdCremator
Added to note on passive
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Make the passive three times per revive instead of mission and I'm happy with this. Otherwise it has potential but is still not going to make me more willing to play him.

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Truthfully i just use wukong to be godlike with my arcane avengers and smack things with my melee. Im not liking the defy changes at all atm. This just killed my whole playstyle. Wukong basically the only frame in the game who can effectively use arcane avengers 100% of the time with no problems at any level.

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2 hours ago, Giantconch said:

This looks pretty solid actualy. I'd comment on the changes before they go in but that doesnt seem like a wise move. I'll wait until after the changes drop to give feedback and hopefully needed tweaks can be made then.

 

*edit*

 

Defy in its current form is a broken 1-trick-pony ability. Cloudwalker is a joke currently, iron jab is essentially useless, his 4 is also a mobile meme. Though he will no longer have defy, having a clone with boosted damage you can send after a target, a better cloudwalker that could actually be useful in spy missions that doesnt feel like a glaciar receeding, and a potentially better version of primal fury which doesnt take a few hundred kills to actually start working like an exalted weapon should be a good improvement.

 

His passive sounds a lot like Defy currently but not an infinite unkillable state. To those saying he's ruined as a result of no longer having Defy, like, do you even Inaros bro? If you crutched Wukong on Defy when the going got tough then I hate to say it, but its time to git gud. ...I feel dirty saying that.

And have you realized Inaros is useless for lvl 100 sorties like bruv I use wukong as a survival frame for sortie love him as a support for my friends who try new stuff also defy a 1 trick pony that’s for the wukong players who haven’t been kill five times in a matter of 2 minutes say do you know how hard it really is to not lose your life on wukong he has a limited amount of lives before he is dead it’s not god mode if you sit take damage and never reset his defy but back to Inaros I barely with a tank efficiency build Inaros can play lvl 50 content I’d say Inaros is what needs wither a buff or rework as his little 4 that gives a way to survive isn’t good enough please replace Inaros with Mr.Op tank rhino who thanks to the iron skin ability where he can take his 1-2 second pre application damage onto his iron skin when you activated it so in truth haven’t seen Inaros be useful for a team or solo other than stunning things sorry about no punctuation I feel this is best delivered as trash as possible I feel that defy is fine with is immortality field but needs to be more active like instead of taking it away and being a active-time-release built dps to a activate-build dps-die/lose a life-explode- still active-repeat 2 more then reset which will make him be deemed as a nyx type tank release but restricted by his health, shield, and immortal time so he is a moving nuke something like a bl2 nova shield ya know but I feel everything else is mostly good wish cloud walker which I use for escape to be in a place to recast the defy also the Inaros thing you don’t have to take to heart just feel he needed more help than wukong for now

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17 minutes ago, Venatorio said:

Yup. How this ability will work at high levels: 

 

you get shot a few times. So now you activate your 2, heal some, deal paltry damage cuz reflection is a joke, then the ability ends. Alright, the enemies that were shooting you are still there, still shooting you. So you have to use your 2 again. Rinse and repeat, the enemies are not CC’d not killed. 

 

The old Defy let you just not die, but gives the ability for you to actually retaliate. It was boring and uninteresting, but it did its job.

 

Alternatively, like most high level players with double Magus Arcanes, you spam 5 a bunch which gives you invuln frames, maybe you dash to safety, and now you’re also healed to full. Costs 0 energy, is super fast, gives you an escape. Again: why would you use the Newkong’s 2?

Mhm... so this could be saved changing the ability a little. Instead of gathering damage and reflecting it every enemy that damage Wukong during the inv/taunt is then blinded (or another form of cc) for x duration. So you could retaliate and have some sort of utility for the team. Uhh, to create synergy with the kit they could even add a Wukong only buff, enemies that hit Wukong during 3 are also exposed to Wukong' (only), as he is enraged with them, and deals x% more damage with his 4. Would be intersting! 

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I'm liking these changes so far!

A) Having the clone be able to target attack is awesome!

B) Healing cloud is great. Are you removing the proposed crit buff?

C) Now I like defy better. I never was a fan of the never dying as that promoted some lazy players. Think and move to survive!

D) Primal Fury update spunds like exactly what I've waited on! Long range, scaling, clone interactions...really nice job folks!

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I wukong defy as it is because at any level no matter if it's 1 or 9999 u kno u guaranteed to be ok. I play a lot of dynasty warriors and games like that. Wukong is the only frame i feel that have that real dynasty warriors vibe to it with his defy. No one is using melee against a lvl 1000+ face tanking everything with confidence of coming out alive except Wukong and nidus if you can maintain stacks. To the people who think they "inaros" can do this, he cant. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:
  • Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
  •  

i love it and it sounds good but am afraid it can be exploited by some players  ...like during tough boss fight a player will let the boss kill him to trigger the passive so now he will have x3 dmg on all his weapons and now he can kill him fast ... 60 sec buff duration is really big time ...ppl can kill orb spider in few minutes now with this passive the fight can be done in ~1 minute 

can you imagine rubico prime with godly riven + 3x dmg buff for 60sec ... yep kinda OP ... and trust me we dont need another chroma character that MUST be brought to any boss fight 

Edit: typoo

Edited by -Bv-Psykiik

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, -Bv-Psykiik said:

i love it and it sounds good am afraid it can be exploited by some players  ...like during tough boss fight a player will let the boss kill him to trigger the passive so now he will have x3 dmg on all his weapons and now he can kill him fast ... 60 sec buff duration is really big time ...ppl can kill orb spider in few minutes now with this passive the fight can be done in ~1 minute 

can you imagine rubico prime with godly riven + 3x dmg buff for 60sec ... yep kinda OP ... and trust me we dont need another chroma character that MUST be brought to any boss fight 

Except you can't control whether you get that or Heavenly Cloak instead, you may not even get it out of the 3 chances you have per mission, it only lasts 60 seconds and again, you only have 3 buffs per mission. Even if you die for real, it sounds like your passive will not refresh for another 3 chances.

Edited by ColdCremator
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1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Buffing it's damage, status chance and giving it slash damage makes absolutely no sense to me to be honest. It does more than enough damage already, and how exactly is a stick going to do slash damage?

Internal bleeding no doubt, bone fragments/pipes sticking out of your skin, marrow sipping into the blood stream, kidney's rupturing, lungs collapsing and so on. I'd say it is finaly a step in the right direction for the game since slash damage is just another name for bleeding damage in the game. All weapons should have the chance to cause bleeding and it is quite silly that a hammer the size of Fragor has less bleeding potential than a meat cleaver or a dagger. If things were correct the Fragor would have high slash damage due to the internal bleeding it can cause. But na, it has impact damage, that slightly staggers an enemy when you hit him in the head. Such logic, much wow.

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3 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Passives... I don't think anyone likes the rng nature of the smeeta's buffs so DE sticks the same function on to a warframe instead...

Hello! It is I, one of the smeeta kavat fans, here to say that some of us do enjoy the smeeta 🙂 that is all. And considering all five of the possible passives cheat death (and you're guaranteed three per mission), there is way less RNG involved compared to the smeeta.

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Posted (edited)

Imma say this now, wukong is a melee frame... How long u think he gonna last actually meleeing?? He's gonna insta die the moment his invulnerability turns off an hr in mot. You ever tried a melee build on mot with chroma? That armor only going to help until u start getting insta shredded... Reason why i dont use wukong over valkyr now. I can do a max power str health armor warcry build. Only going to last but so long until things start shredding her like paper.

Edited by (PS4)Dyin-Kyo
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Kylo. said:

Sounds good, better at least.

The passive RNG is dumb in my opinion though, nobody wants RNG while loading into a mission. 

Will see how it plays out.

Honestly we already deal with that often when dealing with pet precepts, i would actually welcome having a more interesting passive, especially when if i recall how i read that, Wukong basically gets 3 invulnerability moments when he is about to die and he gets a rather strong effect each time (triple elemental damage, double loot? Seriously?). Now if we can only have certain other very OLD warframes get some QoL changes next due to them becoming less useful and only have simplicity left to work with them.

Course now im more interested in what are the odds that wukong deluxe gets shipped out around the same time as wukong`s rework comes out to hype it up more.

Edited by Avienas

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Personal statement here->wukong without defy being a GM ability even if you try to improve the movement or “activity” will not be a wukong so basically keep defy improve everything else as you don’t need to change an ability that truly isn’t godmode as you can die even if it’s activated just sit in the middle of any group of enemies for 6 lives oh wait without recasting you can’t.

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4 minutes ago, ColdCremator said:

Except you can't control whether you get that or Heavenly Cloak instead, you may not even get it out of the 3 chances you have per mission, it only lasts 60 seconds and again, you only have 3 buffs per mission. Even if you die for real, it sounds like your passive will not refresh for another 3 chances.

each time it trigger you have 1 out of 5 chances to get that buff < repeat that for 3 times .. so yah its not that low chance 

60 sec is more than enough to kill the toughest bosses we have now .. orb mother, the 3 eid and the flydlon in gas city ...yes you still have RNG to get the buff but its still OP...i would rather ask for immunity to status for 60sec or +% str to him and to allies or DOT to all enemies for x sec 

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34 minutes ago, Orokin said:

Celestial Twin:

Looks fine but it depends on the answer to the following,

  • Does the clone get a copy of your weapons with ALL the mods?

If it does not then I don't think it will be a very good ability. It can't even be a good distraction because it will probably get itself killed very fast.

 

I agree but if it will work like this there will be another frame with a severely underpowered ability. Loki's decoy is supposed to attract attention but it gets one shotted by a condroc yawning in its general direction and it happens so quickly that as soon as you cast it won't be able to attract more than the first enemy that gets its aggro for more than a split second.

I agree with you, just pointing out that new monkey king god first skill makes loki's almost completely useless (as it can be deployed further away, big deal as it won't last more than a second anyway)

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I mean it looks better than current wukong overall, but I feel it doesn't emphasize the best known wukong attributes, having a stick that can very variably change size and being immortal. 

That said, that passive should be added to the new defy and add a passive that's more like tek assault. I guess his staff size can still be affected by range mods.

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)Cryoguard said:

Hello! It is I, one of the smeeta kavat fans, here to say that some of us do enjoy the smeeta 🙂 that is all. And considering all five of the possible passives cheat death (and you're guaranteed three per mission), there is way less RNG involved compared to the smeeta.

Pretty much the only pet i use these days since Kubrows, outside of helminth charger has barely any thing noteworthy, Carrier covers most of the use of Sentinels and Moas fall under gimmick pet with it being only slightly above kubrows in my honest opinion. Wonder when we will get another pet revamp to make kubrows stand out just as much as a kavat Cat`s eye or Charm.

As for Wukong, also kind of nice the passive picks out 3 of the 5 instead of say, giving 3 instances of one of the random effects and does not say which one till you proc the effect itself.

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Cloud Walker still epicly underwhelming and a completely missed opportunity to make something really cool based on his lore instead of this trash.

Who would use Wukong for Spy/stealth missions anyway when you can just pick Ivara, Loki or Ash for it?

Cloud Walker should either be switched for a COMPLETELY different ability, or change it so you can fly around on top of the cloud or something like in Wukongs lore. Like, make the cloud into a hoverboard kind of thing that can be used ANYWHERE while he can also still attack while on it etc.

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Alright. Some of this is gold. 

Two things in perticuler are not. 

No more exstendo stick and deft change. 

Your lack of spesification on the defy duration is actually hauntingly terrifying because no info normally means it's getting hit hard in game devs terminology. 

If this current reworked defy has a base duration of 30 seconds or so  and you can move after the activation I could get behind it without much problem, pluck the hp regen from cloud walk and put it next to the armour buff. Than add an effect like twin gets higher damage or flat damage reduction while your in cloud walk or even you get a second twin . At this rate your going to promote staying in cloud walk for longer periods of time because if so he restores his health, It's kind of counter intuitive to the more active and interactive play style you are looking for if the health return is added to cloud walker. 

Another option would be to leave defy as it is but make it duration based and add the new cancle melee to it on time out to make it function like nezha's halo 

As for the exalted stick it doeent need the removal of the range scaling Its base range was was hard Done by the fact that range as a warframe stat effected its base range. 

Leave its range uneffectedby by warframe range, increase its base range and still having the scaling range would work just fine. The scaling of your last exalted weapon was poor to say the least and I would hate to see it happen to my money man.  On that subject his exalted weapon isn't exactly steller but it's coverage more than made up for it. Your options would be to follow the as bove suggestion without a damage tune or increase the damage of the staff. Also his combos felt rather lack luster and unfun so I hope you guys manage to make a new set of stances for the rework to stick. Thanks! 

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