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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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Overall, I'm looking forward to the changes I think!

If I have any feedback to give, it is going to be related to Defy. Part of me wants to see total durations (such as how long we can taunt to build armor for example and how long the armor buff lasts). Secondly, will the staff attack at the end use similar base statistics to the Iron Staff (mostly thinking status here, but I won't say no to crit either). Finally, I also will need to feel out how much the slow affects him. As this ability is going to be the one most people resist changes to, I'm hoping the new version feels good enough to assuage people's fears.

I, for one, can't wait to try it when it reaches console however 🙂 

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I want to kno if i'm facing level 500+ enemies the moment defy invulnerability ends will i be dead?? Most likely because armor, adaptation, arcane guardian & grace wont save most frames now. A slash proc at that level might just 1shot anyway. Yea this defy change aint it.

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Will this mean Wukong's idle noble animation will finally get the fix it's deserved for years now? Will he finally get to summon his stick like he's supposed to?

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38 minutes ago, (XB1)TrS DTKW said:

And have you realized Inaros is useless for lvl 100 sorties like bruv I use wukong as a survival frame for sortie love him as a support for my friends who try new stuff also defy a 1 trick pony that’s for the wukong players who haven’t been kill five times in a matter of 2 minutes say do you know how hard it really is to not lose your life on wukong he has a limited amount of lives before he is dead it’s not god mode if you sit take damage and never reset his defy but back to Inaros I barely with a tank efficiency build Inaros can play lvl 50 content I’d say Inaros is what needs wither a buff or rework as his little 4 that gives a way to survive isn’t good enough please replace Inaros with Mr.Op tank rhino who thanks to the iron skin ability where he can take his 1-2 second pre application damage onto his iron skin when you activated it so in truth haven’t seen Inaros be useful for a team or solo other than stunning things sorry about no punctuation I feel this is best delivered as trash as possible I feel that defy is fine with is immortality field but needs to be more active like instead of taking it away and being a active-time-release built dps to a activate-build dps-die/lose a life-explode- still active-repeat 2 more then reset which will make him be deemed as a nyx type tank release but restricted by his health, shield, and immortal time so he is a moving nuke something like a bl2 nova shield ya know but I feel everything else is mostly good wish cloud walker which I use for escape to be in a place to recast the defy also the Inaros thing you don’t have to take to heart just feel he needed more help than wukong for now

 

You've proved me right when I spoke of people using his 1-trick as a crutch. Thanks for admitting you use his invincibility as a crutch because you can't mod other frames.

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Posted (edited)

So far this seems okay I need to see the stat boost to iron staff and know the potential range of the staff after mods. It really needs to be the farthest reaching melee imo or trash it. I still don't care for the clone because AI suck but I guess its better then what we had. 

As for the juicy bit. Defy changing is welcomed but I'm concerned again with range. With the increase to his channeled drain it's going to be very hard to spec him to be better then his previous incarnations that just outright ignored range entirely and this ability potentially being a room clearer is something to be seen so far... ehh it's an okay rework. I can actually call it a rework unlike the atrocities done to frames like Titania and nyx... hydroid. But this mostly comes down to those stats and I really hope you gave a better speed boost to CW because it needs to be faster than parkour or itll be a pointless healing tech. Also why doesnt it heal allies?

Edited by (XB1)Aquarii Ptosi

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5 minutes ago, Ekijonon said:

As for the exalted stick it doeent need the removal of the range scaling Its base range was was hard Done by the fact that range as a warframe stat effected its base range. 

No it didn't, it never has. This is misinformation plain and simple.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

I want to kno if i'm facing level 500+ enemies the moment defy invulnerability ends will i be dead?? Most likely because armor, adaptation, arcane guardian & grace wont save most frames now. A slash proc at that level might just 1shot anyway. Yea this defy change aint it.

Boohoo I can't fight enemies that the game isn't actually designed around with Wukong anymore? I like an endurance run as much as the next guy, but under no circumstances should anything in this game be balanced around them.

Making the ability more useful in relevant content, and less useful in irrelevant content is, curiously, a good thing.

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Posted (edited)

This rework looks good enough for me to want to actually give Wukong a try...but I find it rather curious that DE hasn't considered giving him the ability to summon circles of protection to make him more team friendly.

Yes, summoning circles of protection was apparently something Wukong did.

29 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Internal bleeding no doubt, bone fragments/pipes sticking out of your skin, marrow sipping into the blood stream, kidney's rupturing, lungs collapsing and so on.

Yeah, but Slash damage implies inflicting gashes and cuts to produce external bleeding, so I can see where @DeMonkey is coming from.

I think that Impact and Puncture damage should have the ability to inflict internal injuries that result in health degradation, but in less visibly obvious ways than say Slash.

That said, Wukong's big magic stick o' doom should NOT do Slash damage (it's a blunt weapon with no sharp edges or pokey bits, FFS). Instead, keep Impact damage and let it be able to inflict bleed procs to represent organs being ruptured / crushed.

Edited by MirageKnight

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1 minute ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Well, now Hildryn will be the only functionally invincible frame.

GG, DE, GG.

Revenant nidus 

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18 minutes ago, burem0n0 said:

Who would use Wukong for Spy/stealth missions anyway when you can just pick Ivara, Loki or Ash for it?

I do. Ironically cloud walkers mobility is really good. Maybe try it before you knock it? Its easier to use than all 3 of those frames too and that's in its pre rework. 

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4 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Celestial Twin Augment: Replacing Iron Vault, Wukong will command his clone to perform a wide radius slam, suspending enemies.

Quite an underwhelming augment. Why should I take space up in my building with this when I could use Primal Rage for additional Iron Staff damage and have Cloud Walker, which is already a stun ability? This should be much more unique, adding something to Wukong's kit that he doesn't already have or increase it's effectiveness.

4 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Enveloping Cloud: No planned changes.

The augment is horrible in general. Please change.

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1 minute ago, MirageKnight said:

This rework looks good enough for me to want to actually give Wukong a try...but I find it rather curious that DE hasn't considered giving him the ability to summon circles of protection to make him more team friendly.

Yes, summoning circles of protection was apparently something Wukong did.

Yeah, but Slash damage implies inflicting gashes and cuts to produce external bleeding, so I can see where @DeMonkey is coming from.

I think that Impact and Puncture damage should have the ability to inflict internal injuries that result in health degradation, but in less obvious ways than say Slash.

That said, Wukong's big magic stick o' doom should NOT do Slash damage (it's a blunt weapon with no sharp edges or pokey bits, FFS). Instead, keep Impact damage and let it be able to inflict bleed procs to represent organs being ruptured / crushed.

But even so, it is a massive light stick, so shouldnt it really have the same potential to inflict slash damage as War, which also has no actual cutting edges and relies on pure energy? Also it wouldnt be the first staff without actual blades to have the possibility to inflict slash damage, we already have amphis and broken scepter.

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3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No it didn't, it never has. This is misinformation plain and simple.

Boohoo I can't fight enemies that the game isn't actually designed around with Wukong anymore? I like an endurance run as much as the next guy, but under no circumstances should anything in this game be balanced around them.

Making the ability more useful in relevant content, and less useful in irrelevant content is, curiously, a good thing.

Ok how about we get rid of nidus stack revive as well.._ he doesn't need it... Useless at casual lvl anyway... Get rid of valkyr hysteria invincibility, what else?? Lets add more to the list...

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Ok how about we get rid of nidus stack revive as well.._ he doesn't need it... Useless at casual lvl anyway... Get rid of valkyr hysteria invincibility, what else?? Lets add more to the list...

You propose whatever you want, Sunshine. I'm simply commenting on this particular change.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Dont like it... Dont use it

thats not how this works..... things have to be worth a mod slot. it gets the mod used , it lets the augment have a place. it also leaves less room for snide remarks like this. be nice ( or try too)

Edited by Darkvramp
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Looks interesting, honestly not sure how i feel about the Defy changes, perhaps add a multiplier to the returned damage affected by power strength? and have him absorb damage to allies as well? even through that would be stepping on harrow's toes i think it would make wukong more team friendly and of course deal more damage.

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10 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You propose whatever you want, Sunshine. I'm simply commenting on this particular change.

Even if, gaining armor? Unless he gaining chroma's amount of armor i dont want to hear it. Look warcry valkyr gets shredded real easily, atlas squishy squishy. Dont disrespect him with an armor buff and give him a straight up damage reduction then atleast. 

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Just now, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Even if, gaining armor? Unless he gaining chroma's amount of armor i dont want to hear it. Look warcry valkyr gets shredded real easily, atlas squishy squishy. Dont disrespect him with an armor buff and give him a straight up damage reduction then atleast. 

We don't know how much armour it's going to be, but given it's already possible to survive most content with an Umbral build and defensive Arcanes, I can't see there being too much of a problem.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

We don't know how much armour it's going to be, but given it's already possible to survive most content with an Umbral build and defensive Arcanes, I can't see there being too much of a problem.

Words of a casual. Im done. Lol. You want wukong to drop from being 1 of the best survivability frames in the game to being "casual" low tier survivability with a niche impact stick a niche clone that might also get shredded and a cloud. Makes perfect sense

Edited by (PS4)Dyin-Kyo
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Posted (edited)

I love these Dev Workshops.
I love having the rationale/context for changes.

 

Concerns of AI issues aside, 1 looks good, effect-wise.
That said, esp if you're the one at range, I'm unsure of its usability: Consider Loki's Decoy.
Different frame stats, granted, but barring the extreme exceptions of Inaros (and, with some player input, Nidus) frames are very bad at tanking with just their stats.

I'm assuming you're supposed to keep it sustained with the 2's healing (since recast requires repositioning)? That could work (as Magus Repair does), but presupposes the clone can survive getting gibbed - which I don't take for granted.
Assuming it doesn't insta-die in e.g. sortie 1 (or any elemental ench sortie), it looks cool.
I assume you're intended to keep it active with Defy? This could be fine, but will be energy intensive - and combined with Primal Fury being a toggle - is yet another frame incentivised to get 75% eff. (Though Flow + Rage can be done, ofc. It's just less reliable, esp with the clone taking agro.)

My primary concern with Defy is that it'll suffer from Nyx's Absorb-syndrome: A useful effect on paper, made useless by limits on application - miniscule range, as woth Absorb exacerbated by - in WuKong's case - application method being a melee attack - i.e. blocked by terrain touching the swing-box.
And all this overshadowed by the fundamental fact that, due to [url=https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HealthDamageAsymmetry]Damage<->Health Asymetry[/url] Warning: TVTropes, reflected damage scales very poorly before Damage 2.0 modifiers are applied.

That said, the armor buff will do a bit towards making Defy survivable, so no complaints there beyond the eternal (since the reported abandoning of Damage 3.0/Mods 2.5) and above-raised problem of Damage 2.0 and damage/eHP scaling issues.

That said, for - I think - self-explantory reasons, my secondary concern is the duration of both the effects (agro/absorb and armor buff).


Changes to Cloudwalker look good.

Am I seeing correctly that while Primal Fury's out, both you and the clone use it?

And I'm overall very happy about the trend of reducing anim-lock. It feels terrible, and raises the cost/risk of using those abilities.


To clarify:
Wukong's passive is 3 extra revives that each grant a buff out of a pool of 5 possible? Or do these buffs also apply to the 'normal' revives? I assume not, and that they're used first.
They're rather inconsistent in their immediate usefulness, but the flavor's good; and given that they have a useful duration, that's more a nit than a problem.


Augs look good, though I'd have to check my builds to see if they're actually worth a slot.


Cautiously optimistic. My stat-related concerns aside, this seems to be another well-put-together, innately synergistic kit. You're on a roll.
Well done, keep it up.


And welcome to the forums, Mrs. Spacey.

 

Edit: Question - Is the Forma bundle a binary 'has Wukong/does not have Wukong'?
It'd be hilarious (and kinda karmatic-justice, I think) to see the 7 Wukong fanatics wake up to 300 Forma because they're sitting on 100 Wukongs.

Edited by Chroia
Trying to fix link. Failing to fix link. I give up.
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1 minute ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Words of a casual. Im done. Lol

The entire game is casual, genius.

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44 minutes ago, Olphalarepth said:

I agree but if it will work like this there will be another frame with a severely underpowered ability. Loki's decoy is supposed to attract attention but it gets one shotted by a condroc yawning in its general direction and it happens so quickly that as soon as you cast it won't be able to attract more than the first enemy that gets its aggro for more than a split second.

I agree with you, just pointing out that new monkey king god first skill makes loki's almost completely useless (as it can be deployed further away, big deal as it won't last more than a second anyway)

Well there already exists saryn's molt which has an invulnerability period that absorbs damage and adds that to its health. So it is technically already outclassed as you say. You should argue that loki's decoy should be buffed not argue that wukong's 1 should be as useless as loki's.

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Posted (edited)

One of the 7 Wukong players here! 1.1k hours in Warframe, 20% Wukong playtime.

Overall I think the changes are really good. It's great to see that there's specific influence behind the changes (specifically Wukong lore) and the attempt to retain some of the identity that makes the small amount of Wukong players play him. It reminds me of Nezha and his successful rework (who I also play a ton of).

Passive: I like the idea, but this is the weakest part of his new kit and I hope it gets looked at a little bit. It's the weakest because while the buffs individually are incredible, the RNG makes them impossible to play around. This is fine by itself, imo, as it's a worthwhile tradeoff for powerful buffs that will almost always be useful in every situation regardless of which buff you receive. The big issue here is that it focuses entirely on one side of the influence (Wukong lore) and ignores the other: Wukong players and why they play Wukong. I know that I personally enjoy Wukong because he allows me to jump into endless missions knowing that he can go the distance. I love endless missions, and Wukong currently fits into that style of play very, very well. His new passive would be incredibly useless in endless missions, though. You pop your 3 procs in the first rotation or two, and now you don't have a passive for the rest of mission.
Proposed change: Simply give him a way to recharge that passive. Either with affinity (sort of like Syndicate weapons charge up with affinity, here you would have passive "charges", you have a max of 3 stored at a time, and gaining affinity gives you charges), based on a timer (after X amount of time, gain X charges, max 3 charges), or based on rotations (each time a rotation ends, you gain X charges, max 3 charges). I think the idea of the passive is great, having some RNG is a fun tradeoff for powerful buffs, but it definitely needs a way to stick around for long missions, because that's why players play Wukong: to go the distance.

 

Celestial Twin: I love the idea, I hope that the AI behaves well, because that will dictate its usefulness. Great upgrade from Iron Jab. Thanks!

Cloud Walker: Love the changes. The core idea behind the ability was always interesting, and this is a great way to try to make it relevant. Makes Wukong a great choice for Spy missions and the lowered energy cost makes it much more attractive in more situations. I think that people who complain about Defy being changed and Wukong's survivability are sleeping on Cloud Walker - it will help round out the cracks in his survivability if you learn to use it in a pickle instead of solely relying on Defy.

Proposed change: Please allow us to mod its travel speed! Either with sprint or parkour mods or with k-drive mods. This would turn Cloud Walker from a decent ability to an incredible ability. Could be busted depending on max speed if we can semi-permanently be in stealth/bypass lasers for Spy, but... it would be so cool.

Defy: I like the idea. It obviously feels bad to have Wukong's signature "can never die" ability gone, but I think this is a worthwhile replacement considering the buffs to the rest of his kit IF it's... well, useful. I feel like the damage spin aspect will be pretty useless (why sit there, absorb damage, release it to kill things when you can just kill them faster with your weapons/4?), but that feels more like a little cherry on top than a focal point of the ability. The taunt range, the invulnerability duration, and the armor gain are all stats that will be very important to determine how useful the ability is.

Proposed change: Please do not impose a movement speed debuff. I don't think there's a point. Either it's not very severe, and so it doesn't really matter, and so why even have it, or it's severe, and so it just feels really bad to be invulnerable but super sluggish. Warframe's movement feels incredible to use. Let us use it.

Primal Fury: I love the OG Primal Fury, so I'm happy to see it relatively unchanged with some nice buffs.

Proposed change: The drain is already worse on live compared to other melee Exalted Weapons while being less useful than those weapons at 3 energy per second (Excal has 2.5/s and a much stronger 4, Valkyr starts at 2.5/s and goes up, but her 4 is even more useful). I'm not sure the slight buffs necessitate the energy cost increase. Obviously we don't have numbers so we can't see if the drain is worth it, but range being on par with zaws instead of being clearly better is a bit disappointing. I'd be okay with a drain increase if the range was really, really good. Maybe not that gif good (you know which one I'm talking about, the one that all Wukong players dream about), but definitely better than standard melee weapons.

 

Overall I'm very happy with the changes. Hopefully the get a bit streamlined (the big ones I'm hoping for are sustainability changes for his passive and no movement speed debuff on defy) but I'm just happy you guys are giving the monkey some love.

 

 

Edited by Volaren
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