Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

[mrrobotto67]

I am not a Wukong main BUT i like what i just read. But as a personal question, it was said on a devstream that Vauban would get a rework, some players want a chroma rework, is Valkyr on your crosshairs for a rework/touch up?

[OmegaVitae]

a mission-long cooldown on the passive? randomly assigned (read:unreliable) buffs? that's incredibly bad design. it's a blatant push towards "bitesize" that utterly breaks worth/value for endless gameplay and further alienates those rare players who stay in a mission long enough to reach rotation B... include all methods by default, and make the passive's charges reset every 10 minutes; 10 minutes is s a fairly decent stand-in for average pub mission length, and dying more than 5 times in 10 minutes *should* be punished by having it stick.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

As A Rhino main with Wukong being my secondary... I think this perfectly matches his theme, and sounds very fun. I cant freaking wait!

[Napsnacks]

These changes look like a lot of fun. I'm excited about the stealth potential, though I wish the possibility of better loot wasn't based on rng. I never play Wukong but I'm pumped to see him after this rework

[Pandabarrel]

9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

That's why you use Gladiator mods.

Buffing it's damage, status chance and giving it slash damage makes absolutely no sense to me to be honest. It does more than enough damage already, and how exactly is a stick going to do slash damage?

I never said to add Slash damage, CO can be useful with other status effects, doing Corrosive/Cold with say, a Zakti to setup other status as an example. And I always assumed the interaction between Gladiator set and exalted weapons was a bug and would eventually be patched out. If not then why dont they just give exalted weapons Blood Rush?

[--Q--ualityContent]

"Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times."
That feels like a step back in game mechanics and I feel like there should be a way to replenish these charges either on a long timer or as some drop from enemies.

[Pandabarrel]

19 minutes ago, Julian_Skies said:

Second bullet point of Primal Fury, they state it's getting a much higher status chance.

Big oof i must have missed that, ty

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, Pandabarrel said:

I never said to add Slash damage

Never said you did, it was an observation on what DE have posted.

3 minutes ago, Pandabarrel said:

And I always assumed the interaction between Gladiator set and exalted weapons was a bug and would eventually be patched out.

There was a bug, this is it's fixed state.

Originally you could effectively "double up" on the gladiator mods, by having 2 Gladiator Vice equipped, one on normal melee and one on your Unique weapon, both adding to the bonus. This was fixed so that only the set mods on your actual weapon add to the set bonus, however the mods can still be equipped on your Unique weapon for their primary effect. If the set bonus wasn't intended to be allowed to work with the weapons, then the change would have been to simply remove the interaction altogether, instead of fixing the mods doubling up.

[shut]

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Defy

• Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.

So this basically means that Defy will have a staff-spinning animation that... does no damage at high levels.

Damage reflection has never been a viable option in this game, since enemies at mid-level or higher have WAY more bulk than damage. Defy's staff spin needs some form of scaling-- e.g. the staff-spinning attack acts as an Iron Staff swing in terms of damage (with mods, crits, procs, combo counter, etc. all accounted for), and Defy's stored damage acts as a multiplier for its final damage.

The rest of the rework looks awesome, though! 

 

EDIT:

I'm especially looking forward to this combo:

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Primal Fury

• Damage for Wukong and his clone is redistributed for a more powerful feel, with a much higher status chance, larger base range, and some slash.

Cloud Walker

• Wukong evaporates into a fast-moving cloud of mist that will temporarily daze and paralyze enemies in his path.

I really hope this means what I think it means.

[shadow0727]

Wukong prime coming soonTM

[Pandabarrel]

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Never said you did, it was an observation on what DE have posted.

Ah yeah, I missed that in the OP. He does have the energy bits at the end of his staff, maybe those could do slash damage. Thanks for the clarification on the Gladiator set.

[Maka.Bones]

These changes sound really fun. I'm really excited, and anxious to try the new rework!!! 😄

[Zendadaist]

First readover looks promising. I'm hoping the Defy changes etc will echo the Nezha rework in that what may initially appear as a nerf actually ends up being pretty a powerful upgrade.

Not at all convinced at the RNG nature of the passive that only triggers when he defies death coupled with it's limitation of only 3 times per mission. I suppose the limit is to prevent cheesing with self damage weapons until you get the buff you want, but in that case why not slap a long cooldown on it each time it activates (2 minutes or something) and remove the 3 per mission limit?

[Boboberto]

Changing how defy works feels like a slap on the face of those that actually liked wukong, I know the kit was lackluster, but changing his iconic ability is too much. I bet and hope a lot of people will like appreciate him more now, but those that already did will be left with a lackluster and unreliable passive that can only work three times/death on an previous endurance /gunplay frame.

[Venatorio]

This rework’s a no-go from me. He still hasn’t been given a real theme?? (And no, being the “Chinese” frame isn’t a real theme. Let’s be real here.) he’s got no kit cohesion, and fills 0 roles in the game.

 

 - his passive is a joke

 - his 1 is his best ability, and the only one I like and think is actually good.

 - his 2 now requires you to spam the ability. It’s literally all other survival abilities, but worse. Why spam 2, when you could... oh, I dunno... just kill the enemy shooting you?

 - his 3 does nothing still. It’s all other invisibility options but bad. Nothing was changed.

 - his 4 now officially joins the ranks of the many exalted weapons that either outright suck at high levels, or has less range and damage than Mesa.

 

RIP Wukong, they tried. Maybe next time you’ll get a more cohesive, narrow theme. As is? Wukong isn’t a dps frame, is a barely passable tank, has crap for cc potential, doesn’t have support abilities, and can’t defend objectives. A JOAT who can’t even do that.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Boboberto said:

Changing how defy works feels like a slap on the face of those that actually liked wukong

No it doesn't.

2 minutes ago, Boboberto said:

but those that already did will be left with a lackluster and unreliable passive that can only work three times/death on an previous endurance /gunplay frame.

Oh yeah, because 5 seconds combo instead of 3 made such a huge difference in endurance runs, especially whilst using a gun.

[Evhel]

Sounds good! Ofc we need to try it first, but reading about it 1 2 and 4 are interesting. I don't know about Defy. Don't get me wrong, i think it was a cheese ability and changing it is totally legit, i just don't like how it turned out. You said you want to keep invulnerability, but you already have it on 2 (while also healing) and passive (which is the other meh thing imho, cool concept but RNG is never a good choice), and the ability itself feels boring and... useless? Yes, you get an armor buff but you ensnare yourself and the reflect is a mechanic i don't really enjoy. Would totally trade the invulnerability for something else. Still that's IMHO so, we will see!

[lihimsidhe]

Celestial Twin

Quote

Press ability again to command Wukong’s clone to attack a specific target with increased damage.

Most of the issues I could have had with this ability are solved right here.  Nice work!

Cloud Walker

Quote

These changes make the Ability good for repositioning, more well-rounded - and WAY faster.

New players have parkour.  Vets have parkour + operator dashes.  For any mobility option to really sell itself it should be faster than parkour but not neccesarily faster than void dashing.  For short term movement as long as Cloud Walker and its animation > parkour travel speed this alone will make it worthwhile.  Consider giving it momentum that's similar to Titania's 'kill enemies/go faster' Razorwing mod.  Also I would love to come out of Cloudwalker doing a slide dash, slam attack, aerial attack, or gunfire.  Have either of these actions cancel Cloudwalker.

Defy

Quote

Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.

Damage reflection in Warframe is a joke without ridiculous damage reflection buffs like +10000%. As long as Defy has an outrageous buff like this it will be barely okay.  However, what happens to Wukong after Defy ends and he is still the target of high level mobs?  He dies making Defy another subreddit thread of 'Do the Devs Ever Test Their Reworks?'.  Solve this by Defy's blast have a chance to jam all weapons so Wukong isn't 1 shotted soon as Defy ends.

Primal Fury

All exalted weapons need to compete with Blood Rush + Body Count which outpace them 9/10 times.  So unless these combos have insane damage or prefarably... insane reach... Skana w/mandatory mods > Primal Fury.  Experiment with redonk range and have some kind of aerial attack that replaces the old Iron Jab mod that launches Wukong way, WAY, up into the air.

Passive

Quote

5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.
Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds

Reading this caused me to Google if Canada legalized weed.  It did. And it shows.  I love this.  It looks like someone REALLY enjoyed designing this while doing something perfectly legal in Canada.  Have this person redesign all the passives in the game, name them, and make mods for them.  Favorite part of the rework.  🙂

 

[JohnLemon123]

Everything here sounds... Alright? I still have 2 gripes with these changes overall, mainly the following :

- the cloud walker augment is distressingly awful, and really needs to be improved. 

- there needs to be SOME way, however complex, demanding or contriving, for wukong to get his resurrections back. Otherwise, it'd just be a worse nidus passive, and the rest of his new kit, while promising, doesn't exactly strike me as ''nidus tier''. 

[MoonYuTsu]

I guess I'll throw in my two cents on the rework, as someone who has recently got pretty into Wukong due to nullifiers, CC immunity, and things hitting through the rift ruining everything when I try to play limbo *RARGH*... *ahem*, yeah, rework opinions

Celestial Twin

I think this sounds pretty good. Thematic, neat idea, I just hope mr.clone's Twokong's AI isn't too dense, but I guess we'll have to wait and see on that one.

Defy

As someone who is useless and dies constantly in level 30 missions, I'll miss old Defy, it was a glorious bit of idiot-proofing that let me get away with my uselessness and mistakes... that said, if I disregard the self-deprecation, I'm still not sure I like this new Defy. It seems the idiot-proofing is gone (mostly, some of it has gone into the passive I guess), to be replaced with some weird Covenant/Absorb hybrid, and something that's going to be meh/useless unless you spam it, but if you spam it it's going to eat up the energy you want to use for keeping Primal Fury active... for me personally, it's just going to be one of those abilities that's like "oh that exists" that won't get used often, but like everything else, will have to wait and see... though my current impression is that I'd like to see something more interesting done with Defy.

Cloudwalker

No complaints really, it felt bad before, it just seems like it'll be better with these changes, though yes, attacking not cancelling the invisibility from the augment would be nice, that augment is kind of potato at the moment because of that, at least in my opinion.

Primal Fury

Bleh... some of these changes sound nice, like the stat buffs and the not locking movement while casting thing... but I really don't like the making the range fixed and removing the extending with combo thing - as it is now, sure it makes the staff feel a bit weak at first, but for me it creates a kind of engaging experience where I want to hound enemies down and hit them with my stick to keep it extended... but making the range fixed and removing that interaction just takes that experience away, in my opinion it's just going to make the ability less unique, a lot more plain, and less engaging to use. I think it'd be better to just buff the minimum and maxium ranges of it, and make the combo-gives-length something tied to the ability instead, like making the length extention keep as long as the Primal Fury ability is active or something.

Also, as a personal note, I'd really like if Iron Vault, the old augment for Iron Jab is integrated into the moveset for Primal Fury... like making looking down and meleeing boop you into the sky like Iron Vault did. I know almost the same effect can be achieved by just bullet jumping upwards, but to me Iron Vault is just a fun thing to use, it'd be a shame to lose the fun of it entirely just because the base ability is being removed

Passive

I guess this is where old Defy moved to? It's nice to have its spirit lingering, though I'm unsure about the randomness of the buffs - maybe let us pick 3 buffs in the arsenal which can randomly proc instead of making which procs you can get random on mission start?

[Eldnacpeek]

THIS.

I.

LIKE.

Just skimmed and I'm on board, at long last I won't have to make a genuine (and very draining) effort to like Wukong. Can't wait to play with this!

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

To celebrate the changes, all players who currently own Wukong will receive 3 Forma!

 ilyall

[ADirtyMonk]

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Shield will be decreased from 125 to 100 (at max rank decreased from 375 to 300).

• Why? Since Wukong’s new kit now involves an armour buff, relying more on his health will enable a better synergy.

 

Buff shields....

 

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Celestial Twin

Does the clone weapons inherit weapon mods? Duration based? Channeling based? How are we supposed to get a good handle on how the ability works if you guys insist on leaving out so much critical info?

Here's hoping for some AI improvements. At the very least let us customize that enemies our summons will prioritize automatically. If there's a nullifier or ancient around I want those dead first without having to stop what I'm doing to point and click.

Warframe desperately needs someone at competent AI design. I'm going to laugh if the day of release videos pop up of the melee clone suiciding into nullifiers because the player accidentally pulled out a gun.

I can see this going two ways. The clone is dumb as balls and everyone now runs the staticor, catchmoon, or some other OP AOE weapon in it, or the clone is an aimbot.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Cloud Walker

Sounds good. Didnt it also come with a crit buff?

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Defy

• Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.

Not encouraging. No scaling means the damage component of this quickly becomes negligible. Highly recommend the damage confers some multiplier type to Wukong's moddable exalted staff which is used for this atttack. At the very least armor buff sounds good.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Primal Fury

• Primal Fury will feature a new specialized and streamlined combo for Wukong’s legendary Iron Staff. As a preview of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system, Wukong’s Primal Fury uses new combo routes with simplified inputs providing a safe, limited space to try out coming releases.

Sounds good. Looking forward to a taste of 3.0.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Passive

• 5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.

That's interesting. The buffs sound strong. So good job with that.

How does it work though? Activate on hitting 0 HP? If so then what is the interaction with arbitrations and instant death nades? How often can it activate? Will the player be able to chain frag themselves 3 times in a row and still live?

WIth such short duration buffs I highly recommend a way for Wukong to be able to slowly regenerate "lives". You guys have a scoring system in the simulacrum. Just put one in the background and once the player hits a certain "score" they get another life up to holding a max of 4 or 5.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds

This does not belong in the buff rotation. Change it to something like guaranteed red crits or guaranteed 100% status chance. All of the other buffs are powerful short term combat buffs. A loot buff is completely out of place. Besides, the duration and frequency are short to do much of anything and if you make it long enough to matter people are going to purposely suicide to try to fish for the buff.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Augments

• Celestial Twin Augment: Replacing Iron Vault, Wukong will command his clone to perform a wide radius slam, suspending enemies.
• Enveloping Cloud: No planned changes.
• Primal Rage: Increased cap from 100 to 150%, increased bonus per kill from 10% to 15%. Drain now scales with duration, so the higher Wukong’s duration, the slower it drains, and when Wukong gets a kill the drain stops for 5 seconds.

Celestial Twin and Enveloping cloud augs not worth the slot. Your augment designers need to get it in their little brains that augments are competing with other mods for a slot. They dont exist in a vacuum.

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

*Wukong will be disabled in Conclave after his Revisit has launched until the team can properly balance him for the Conclave gamemode.

Here's an idea. What if.. what if the weapons and warframe in the game mode the vast majority of the player base plays got regular numbers tweaks instead of the tacked on PvP mode that you wont even pay for dedicated servers for?

[DeMonkey]

Just now, LazerSkink said:

at long last I won't have to make a genuine (and very draining) effort to like Wukong.

Don't lie LazerSink. I know you love me.

[Eldnacpeek]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Don't lie LazerSink. I know you love me.

 

ye i just have trouble expressing my feelings bruv ❤️😁

[Didoguard]

Passive still needs further rework/clarification. If it is limited to 3 uses per mission that is a no go for endless runs. Can you just make it that it build stacks and every time it goes to 0 a stack is consumed. I have no problem with random buffs on use. But put it a stack regen once ever 3-5 minutes maybe? Capping at 3 stacks or something? With maybe 60-90 seconds of downtime before a new stack can kick in? Please make it at least Phenix Renewal Oberon level of skill. Don't just kill it right of the start for people who actually go deeper into endless missions. 

Otherwise you are cool. Keep up the great work.