Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

[Noabettiet]

Got a couple of inputs to the new skills and passives.

First the passives:

I truly appreciate them and i think they are quite unique on their own right, however, being that only 3 of the 5 listed are active (which i assume randomly selected) it should be wise to balance them accordingly. In a way, that having either of them is an alright substitute and not detrimental. Long story short, between getting invisible/invulnerable and getting a boost to the efficiency of my orbs, i'd choose the first one.

Skills:

With the change in wukong status as an extremely durable warframe, i honestly don't mind the changes as much, however i have some suggestions to improve the experience and give some quality of life changes that would help playing with him better.

Celestial Twin:

(working out of assumptions since there is nothing about this) 

• Make the animation slightly faster
• If it interrupts movement, please make it so that it doesn't, warframe is a fast game and i think wukong players would benefit a lot from this change!
• Targeting an enemy places an "icon", similar to ash, that indicates they have been selected.
• Augment should work on target enemies too, perhaps suspending said enemy till told otherwise by the player or some duration ending. 

Cloud walker:

• It opens enemies for finishers/ small ragdoll instead of paralyzing/dazing. (they fall down to the ground)
• Speed at which you travel is multiplicative of your own and increases with power strength

Defy:

Why defy changes are polarizing, i really like this change the most, but i think it could have some improvements to make it easier to the users and appease old defy fans play-style without compromising the vision of the DEVs!

• Taunting enemies stores damage/ kinetic power, just like you guys described it to be. HOWEVER, releasing that kinetic power should be a player choice.
  It is great that we can release it early but it would better if we could release whenever we want.
  • Holding the skill: Would use the taunt for as long as the button is pressed and once released would trigger the spin counter-attack with the damage stored.
  • PRESSING the skill: Would instead just store the kinetic power as extra armor and range buff to melee/guns alike. With UI wheel similar to nidus or other warframes, to display the damage absorbed. The buff could erode with damage or time, depending on your efficiency.

*This appeases players who like running tanks and liked how wukong had the biggest stick on the block.

Primal fury:

it would be appreciated if it worked with the range buffs above and if the animations didn't impede movement too.

[Ham_Grenabe]

Who's excited? This guy. 

[(PSN)PluggedInBabies]

The biggest problem I see with this rework is that it fails to answer the fact that Wukong has one of the lowest Squad contributions of the Warframes. No team buff, no team heal, no large area crowd control, the only thing he is "bringing to the team" is aggro drawing. Spreading Defy's buff to the squad would really make him more appealing to squads, because right now he still feels like a lone wolf that doesn't care about his allies. 

[Elyi]

1 hour ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Replacing Iron Jab, Celestial Twin will allow for Wukong to shed a part of himself to call a supporting clone into action. The clone will attack from range while Wukong uses melee, or will use melee while Wukong uses range.

Make the clone hold the same weapon and attack the same way you're attacking. Or a way for us to control it better, don't leave stuff out of our control...

 

1 hour ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Passive

• 5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.
  1. Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
  2. Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
  3. Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
  4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
  5. Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds

RNG is not a good game design, if you can't think of anything just pick one.

[SSI_Seraph]

il y a 11 minutes, weirdee a dit :

you can camp your own clone and make them invisible while healing them

So cosplaying Shade but he gets to do with without the energy cost 😂

[(PSN)SlumbyBear]

1 hour ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Primal Rage: Increased cap from 100 to 150%, increased bonus per kill from 10% to 15%. Drain now scales with duration, so the higher Wukong’s duration, the slower it drains, and when Wukong gets a kill the drain stops for 5 seconds. 

I still believe that this is really small buff when khora can recieve +350% damage, wish the cap scaled with power strength

[59Arthur59]

There's nothing to say about his ability, I'm loving him even more. But the only thing that can be good is more speed and agility, to me Wukong is supposed to be fast, he's a trickster after all. 

 

Except that, every thing seems perfect to me ^^

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)PluggedInBabies said:

because right now he still feels like a lone wolf that doesn't care about his allies. 

Accurate.

1 minute ago, (PS4)SlumbyBear said:

I still believe that this is really small buff when khora can recieve +350% damage, wish the cap scaled with power strength

Assuming nothing else changes, this is huge. Originally it was just +25% crit chance at max for a total of 50% crit chance, 65% with True Steel. Now we'll get 62.5% crit chance, and 77.5% with True Steel.

When you consider how the Gladiator mods work, even the slightest increase to crit chance can make a big difference.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

36 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Of course, but it's still better than a 2 second duration buff I don't notice because I actually mod for a useful 15 seconds instead of 5.

Ok, while I'm slightly concerned with the behavior and survivability of the clone, I can ultimately say this rework is an improvement. Unless his clone fails to be effective.

Please test this S#&$ out before release, and all you PC players...if it sucks spam the forums with complaint threads all around. Don't let them abandon this frame if it doesn't perform to task. You won't get another chance for years.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Unless his clone fails to be effective.

Yeah, that's a grievance of mine as well. Having the clone be targetable, durationless and join Wukong when he uses his Defy and Primal Fury however does go some way to allaying my concerns.

[Luthier_Marke]

As an avid wukong player, the past 6-8 months I've been "maining" him were a joy. Having the ability to cast defy and skydive into lenz shots without a care in the world to follow up the battle via zaw has been the most fun I've had since I finished the star chart. I was worried about the changes but now Im not so much.

In a previous hotfix, there was a placeholder timer on Defy that escaled off my duration, I assume this was related to the rework? if so, will Defy 2.0 still escale off duration mods? how high will the armor buff be?.

As for the passive changes, I really dont see the point in some of the effects: why would I want to be invisible when cloud is now a valid option? why would I want double loot after I died?. I would rather have the other 3 effects but if they must be 5, I would rather want an extra crit damage buff and a volt-like speed buff instead of those two I mentioned.

Overall, Im very interested in trying these changes out but I would like to insist on retouching the augment for cloud walker, since it wont see any kind of use. If I can make a suggestion, I think it would be pretty useful if wukong was able to share the effects of cloud walker with the rest of the team as long as they are in the cloud, similar to how chroma's 2nd ability works.

--- edit --- Forgot to ask! could you please consider making the current version of defy an augment with some other cost attached? something like extra energy drain or a greater factor that divides the HP

[Finedaible]

As always, these changes will need to be tested but they look great to me at first glance. Looks like he'll make a good Exalted-rage-tank while having a nice offensive specter. The passives might be a bit over the top, but i'm sure that's there for the more casual players who will miss the skill. 

edit: typo.

[Elon-Chan]

Il y a 1 heure, [DE]SpaceySarah a dit :

Passive

 

• 5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.
  1. Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
  2. Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
  3. Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
  4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
  5. Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds

 

Would this be possible to be refreshable somehow? It looks like a great passive however if it only works 3 times per mission it would be quite an empty slot for arbitration and/or endurance runners.
Rest looks like a pleasant surprise! :)
 

[M4gm0]

[Pandabarrel]

This rework looks great! I'm glad I hold onto atleast one of every frame, the 3 forma is really nice of you DE :O. Though I do hope Defy's invuln window scales on duration in order to provide some good survivability. I also hope that you take a look at Iron Staff's stats and consider adding some status, the problem with crit based exalted weapons is that Blood Rush doesnt work which makes it very hard to build it as crit. Adding status chance would open it up to Condition Overload and would greatly help its damage potential. I was never a Wukong player before, but I'm looking forward to giving him another shot!

 

Edit: I missed in the OP that Status Chance, Range, and Slash damage are being added. Missed that the first time.

[Raptos22]

I'm sorry, but this is horse crap. How many times has this "set it and forget it" excuse been trotted out in order to justify changing the entire core of a WF? Also why is it so unevenly applied? 

Example: It was used to justify taking a collective dump on Ember's head, changing her Ult without really making her other abilities more robust. I almost never see Ember anymore, because this nerf was slapped on as a band-aid and she was never really improved/balanced past that. While I agree her four needed to be changed, what was done to her made her damn near unplayable. Now let's look at my favorite frame in comparison: Ivara.  Will her stealth be getting a nerf, based on the "set it and forget it" idea? I can literally put her 2 on, and then go get a snack and take a bathroom break. I have timed her stealth (with my current mod set of course.) and I can stay in her prowl from anywhere from 10-15 minutes. Is this not the personification of "set it and forget it?" 
Wukong's entire gimmick is never dying and hitting things with sticks. By completely changing Defy, you are completely changing what Wukong is as a frame. Let me ask you something: Has Wukong's defy ever been truly broken? Certainly not in my opinion. In fact you said yourself he is one of the least used frames. If his defy was ever truly broken, this rework would have happened a long time ago, and he would be close to the top of frames used. In my opinion defy is also in no way "set it and forget it." You have to manage when to have defy on, because it drains a lot of energy, and if you want to use his stick that drains even more. There's interaction, because you have to make the choice of when it is advantageous to have defy on. 
If this "set it and forget it" excuse is going to be used, it should be equally apply to all frames, not just a few because you felt like changing a few things. If you're going to change a frame's entire concept, don't and instead make a new frame that could fit that concept. I'm tired of seeing reworks that boil down to "Ok we don't like thing, so we change thing and not really give a darn about how this changes the frame." Wukong's Defy does not need this kind of a nerf, and in your effort to make him more "playable" you might just kill off any following he had to begin with. 

I hope you take feedback like this to heart, and really give the rework a good hard second look because of it. 

[Julian_Skies]

2 minutes ago, Pandabarrel said:

This rework looks great! I'm glad I hold onto atleast one of every frame, the 3 forma is really nice of you DE :O. Though I do hope Defy's invuln window scales on duration in order to provide some good survivability. I also hope that you take a look at Iron Staff's stats and consider adding some status, the problem with crit based exalted weapons is that Blood Rush doesnt work which makes it very hard to build it as crit. Adding status chance would open it up to Condition Overload and would greatly help its damage potential. I was never a Wukong player before, but I'm looking forward to giving him another shot!

Second bullet point of Primal Fury, they state it's getting a much higher status chance.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

16 minutes ago, Luthier_Marke said:

In a previous hotfix, there was a placeholder timer on Defy that escaled off my duration, I assume this was related to the rework? if so, will Defy 2.0 still escale off duration mods? how high will the armor buff be?.

If I were you, I'd start learning to love Nyx, because she'll be apart of the few able to tank these sort of weapons now.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Raptos22 said:

Wukong's Defy does not need this kind of a nerf

It's a buff though.

2 minutes ago, Raptos22 said:

You have to manage when to have defy on, because it drains a lot of energy, and if you want to use his stick that drains even more

Primed Flow + Rage + getting shot by reasonably high level enemies and you shouldn't have any energy concerns at all. Both abilities together total 2 energy per second when running Duration/Efficiency (which you should be doing).

4 minutes ago, Raptos22 said:

I'm tired of seeing reworks that boil down to "Ok we don't like thing, so we change thing and not really give a darn about how this changes the frame."

I'm tired of mindless sheep overreacting because they see other people overreacting, but hey, here we are.

7 minutes ago, Pandabarrel said:

the problem with crit based exalted weapons is that Blood Rush doesnt work which makes it very hard to build it as crit

That's why you use Gladiator mods.

Buffing it's damage, status chance and giving it slash damage makes absolutely no sense to me to be honest. It does more than enough damage already, and how exactly is a stick going to do slash damage?

[(PSN)Technesiss]

I hope he turns out good. His deluxe skin looks great. 

[Damocles]

Time to be blunt. This is a trash move to sneakily increase your sales for the next prime access. Skipping vauban and chroma so that you can work on wukong to me means chroma and vauban won't get their rework if we support wukong sales. If we buy prime access, then you succeeded, and so you'd surely repeat this act. Chroma and vauban prime access has already passed, so to you, there is less business value, and I understand that. That is why I personally won't buy prime access anymore. Not until the fairness train comes back.

 

Also limbo rework still sucks. Don't overthink this and just make rift not affect ally attacks. I doesnt matter if enemy or warframe is in opposite side of rift. If it prevents damage, its bad design. I mean warframe abilities work this way, why not weapons? 

[Slush_Magic]

Passive's inconsistency isn't very appealing, granted we shouldn't have to take advantage of it altogether, I'd have enjoyed something that's constantly reusable instead of 3 safeguards with random buffs that we might never activate.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

1 hour ago, (PS4)MJ-Cena7 said:

If its anything like valkyr/ember/revenant energy requirment wukong will be doomed 

These frames are S#&$ already and are maily ruined because of the rediculous energy needed to do nothing Specially compared to excal/mesa/wisp who can do the same thing just better 

Rev and valkyr are not remotely ruined if you know how to mod. 

[Dusteon]

First, not a Wukong main. Want to get that out there; I'm a melee loving Valkyr noodle first and foremost. I have a few concerns though, especially given how DE normally does reworks and puts numbers on things.

Passive wise, I feel A) a player should be able to guarantee a buff, and B) buffs should be approximately equally useful in the event Wukong would have died. On that note Wukong's passive fails both. First it only triggers 3/5, and second half the buffs are useless in combat. Wukong should not have to gamble on if his death will give him invulnerability/functional invulnerability for 30 seconds, or make energy orbs more effective. I think the 2x loot and orb drops should either be removed (so he only has 3 buffs), or replaced with survival/damage buffs that Wukong would feel good about having in the event he had just died. Wukong should be able to know that when he dies, he will either be harder to kill or kill enemies better for a while.

1 wise the only problem I have is clone survival (clones don't know how to dodge), and the fact that AI is really poor so Wukong likely has to lock himself to melee only to get the clone to function well. Preferably the clone would just always use a ranged weapon as at least then it contributes.

Cloud walker is there. It exists. Only real use is for the heal or spy but let's be honest by the time you have Wukong you have a multitude of other frames capable of cheesing Spy if need be. This will rely entirely on the numbers on the heal, so hopefully those are high enough to be a full heal or close to it (especially since Warframe has a lot of ways to stay healthy now so a weak heal just won't be worth using).

Defy heavily concerns me due to animations and DE's very poor track record when it comes to usable numbers. Damage reflect wise, damage reflect is just outright terrible. Unless you give Wukong +10,000% damage reflect (or realistically even higher then that) it won't function well enough for the reflect to be meaningful. Armor buff sounds nice, but requires the duration be long enough to keep up often/constantly, and the armor amount to actually be useful instead of something like +300 armor or +20% armor. Ideally the "reflect" should be changed to a single Iron Staff spin (using his actual Exalted mods) with the absorbed damage being a multiplicative boost for that single attack. That means absorbing damage actually boosts his damage in a meaningful way, and means the damage isn't terrible to begin with.

Primal Fury sounds good, although I really hope the Drain is Excalibur style, not Valkyr style. Being forced into a Energize set if you want to actually use the cool melee Exalted as a main weapon isn't fun, and a melee Exalted that can't pass through walls is already only as strong as regular high end melee at best and does not deserve a extreme drain. Also personally wish the augment provided even more crit or his Staff's base crit chance was upped, but that's more because if he's using a entire augment slot for crit chance I feel it should be worth it.

 

Again, not a Wukong main but I feel a lot of this rework will heavily rely on decent numbers to be useful. Very concerned since DE doesn't have a good track record when it comes to that, which is why I'm even making a post.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

2 minutes ago, Slush_Magic said:

Passive's inconsistency isn't very appealing, granted we shouldn't have to take advantage of it altogether, I'd have enjoyed something that's constantly reusable instead of 3 safeguards with random buffs that we might never activate.

Im very pleased with the passive. Perfect for Wukongs trickster theme. Plus if u do need it... U get an added bonus with  the not dying aspect.