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Gauss is a design trainwreck - absolute intrakit dependency, ridiculously arbitrary limitations, not a shred of team utility of any kind


Autongnosis

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4 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Thats a lie its scales with battery so 80% without redline and 100% with redline.

You have increased gravity when using it. This is a personal issue anyways

HONEY. This one is conjecture. Ive played gauss since release. The battery doesn't drop when casting redline. So you start with 80%. I think you forgect that you can cast all your abilities while mach rushing and you gain 10% from mach rush and cold thermal sunder. So i dunno build efficiency like you should and dash 10 times with mach rush. You know his tag line is "nerf stop moving" right? If you stop moving you lose charge. This shows a lack of understanding gauss.

You know whats medicore. Titania. All she has going for her is a cc and damage. Gauss as tons of cc, armor striping, speed, and a dps boost. He can also tank realtively easy as well if you KEEP MOVING. I dislike the minority of warframe player who trash warframes when they first come out because they dont want to adjust how they play to suit the warframe!

 

Have u been using his 2nd skill? I liked him at first, until i ran some high lvl missions and realize his synergy is broken, so he will be on the shelf very soon for me.
His 2nd gives resistance to stagger and knocked back, and 100% reduced damage when meter is full (why 100%, no need for 100%), and with his 2nd active, the meter will go down when u take damage from enemy. I didnt notice this with enemy below lvl 40 until  I ran into lvl 60+.

With 2nd skill active and u keep getting damage, the meter cant get full to charge redline (which is taking too long to take up to 100% redline, ridiculous). So instead of killing enemy, u have to run around to charge the meter for redline to go up, and enemy standing round keeps shooting u and u keep running, and they keep shooting, and u keep running,...
 

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28 minutes ago, Libpea said:

With 2nd skill active and u keep getting damage, the meter cant get full to charge redline (which is taking too long to take up to 100% redline, ridiculous). So instead of killing enemy, u have to run around to charge the meter for redline to go up, and enemy standing round keeps shooting u and u keep running, and they keep shooting, and u keep running,...

Mach Rush into them, and then kill them. Jumping away if necessary. Hell, that strategy is literally written into his lore:

Quote

It implies surging in, inviting the enemy to consider the blade, then rebounding to let missiles answer their confusion.

Do this, and the enemies stop shooting you, you get more charge and energy cost is most likely neutral or positive depending on the damage they dealt.

 

Simply put, his 2 is a power converter. Use damage to catalyse metre into energy to get more metre. You're meant to play Gauss actively, managing how much damage you take to maximise effectiveness. That's why his 2 CC options work differently - one delivering CC during movement as an approach tool and the other best used when required to stand still (since it's also the only way to get charge when standing still)

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds Mach Rush underwhelming.  It's an ability with a lot of flavor (running fast feels good) but very limited  functionality.  It's pretty sad that the best way to get it to be useful is to keep constantly canceling and recasting.  It makes for jarring, stilted, and unfun gameplay.  Then again, watching Gausses run into walls and fall into pits is, at the very least, moderately amusing.

 

However, I don't really agree that Gauss needs to have a team role.  It's fine fine for there to be a frame that's more suited to solo play, and being able to run fast is pretty inoffensive when it comes to not working well with others (especially when almost every pub mission contains an Atterax-wielding maniac, clearing entire rooms just outside of affinity range). 

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Pretty much this, especially concerning the synergy part.

I don't mind an individualistic frame though cause all frames aren't meant to buff the entire team anyway. But since Gauss is no nuker and no buffer i don't get why he did get all of this limitations and overcomplicated mechanics. Almost half of its kit isn't even in its ingame tooltips.

Locking kinetic plating and thermal (fire or explosion) behind its battery/redline level is quite awful, as if this powers weren't there to be used. Well as you mentioned already, his fire and explosion synergies are so bad that i'd keep on with ice procs anyway. On the other hand Kinetic plating brings a lot of interesting buffs but tbh if enemies are dealing poison, viral or whatever it isn't protecting you from, you're pretty much screwed anyway...

Gauss should have a frost/fire eximus detector cause at this point i'm wondering how such kind of specific protections are meant to be used (by human beings of course).

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2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Mach Rush into them, and then kill them. Jumping away if necessary. Hell, that strategy is literally written into his lore:

 

It;s not about strategy or lore, it;s about synergy, number and stats. 2nd skill make it hard to charge up for Redline while under fire (especially with high lvl missions), and Redline takes too long to get to 100%, many similar feedbacks about this have been made on the main Gauss thread, it;s not my opinion anymore 😀

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1 minute ago, Libpea said:

It;s not about strategy or lore, it;s about synergy, number and stats. 2nd skill make it hard to charge up for Redline while under fire (especially with high lvl missions), and Redline takes too long to get to 100%, many similar feedbacks about this have been made on the main Gauss thread, it;s not my opinion anymore 😀

That might just be a change in design philosophy. Hildryn also has a similar setup, Wukong needs more upkeep for his defence after his rework and Wisp's invisibility also requires a lot more effort to maintain compared to frames like Loki or Octavia. Even Railjacks can't use all their abilities and weapons at the same time, from what we've seen.

DE seems to be trying to move away from powers and frames that can just 'do' things without really needing to input to do so. In the same vein, Gauss can't just 'have' big defence and offense buffs. Does this make him 'worse' than say, Rhino or Chroma? Probably, yes. Is it a more healthy setup for the game going forward? IMO, yes. We've all heard the declarations of 'content drought' and 'the game's too easy' and 'no endgame' - the current way doesn't seem to be working all that well. A new direction for designing frames and content may be what's required to fix that.

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Gauss is not my ideal frame, but: Mach Rush is an *offensive ability*. It's not a utility ability (though it has utility), and it's not a defensive ability (though you can use it defensively).

Of course, there's also "annoying gauss" - where you can't keep up with him and spend the whole game playing catchup. But we've already had this issue with a variety of frames. So I imagine that will get mutated over time.

But I am not going to explain how Mach Rush is good because all that would do is create a new meta, and I would prefer to let other people do the meta creation - that way the eventual nerfs tend to miss my play preferences.

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On 2019-09-07 at 3:05 AM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Considering his battery determines the effectiveness of kinetic plating i'd say that's a no.  Saying his kit is useless outside of redline is also a joke.  Kinetic plating gives 80% DR without redline if you're at maximum battery capacity.

Meanwhile, Iron Skin or Warding Halo gives you 100% damage resistance against all incoming damage types, not just IPS and cold/heat (at least until the shell is depleted, but recasting is quick and it can be easily overcharged while under heavy fire). Chroma gets some huge resist percentage when he's got his vex armour up, and an armour-modded Valk gets 95% resist at all times, no power casting, nothing to dispel, it's just there. Or there's Trinity, whose link will only give you 75% resistance... but works against every single damage type, full stop, no modifiers or resistances; gives you complete proc immunity; reflects back any mitigated damage... and isn't dependent on some stupid battery to function at full capacity. Then you can stack on another 75% resistance *for the entire team* if you press 4. Oh, and she's also got armour mitigation with the abating link augment. Or overshield production for the entire team with vampire leech.

Gauss' shield won't do S#&$ against corpus snipers, detron crewmen, exergis crewmen, fusion moas, toxic ancients, noxes or sentients of any kind.

His speed is nice... but while it is faster than bullet jumping, it's not that much faster and I have almost zero control. If I want massive linear speed, I'd either pull out an archwing or a small child.

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4 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

That, I did not know. I thought it acted like iron skin.

It used to. Then when nezha was reworked it was converted to a dr system, but its still similar to ironskin. When activated it absorbs damage, that damage is then multiplied (and added to a base value) to be the shield post-mitigation hp. Once the shield ends you get a second or two of invincibility.  

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1 hour ago, DoomFruit said:

Meanwhile, Iron Skin or Warding Halo gives you 100% damage resistance against all incoming damage types, not just IPS and cold/heat (at least until the shell is depleted, but recasting is quick and it can be easily overcharged while under heavy fire). Chroma gets some huge resist percentage when he's got his vex armour up, and an armour-modded Valk gets 95% resist at all times, no power casting, nothing to dispel, it's just there. Or there's Trinity, whose link will only give you 75% resistance... but works against every single damage type, full stop, no modifiers or resistances; gives you complete proc immunity; reflects back any mitigated damage... and isn't dependent on some stupid battery to function at full capacity. Then you can stack on another 75% resistance *for the entire team* if you press 4. Oh, and she's also got armour mitigation with the abating link augment. Or overshield production for the entire team with vampire leech.

Gauss' shield won't do S#&$ against corpus snipers, detron crewmen, exergis crewmen, fusion moas, toxic ancients, noxes or sentients of any kind.

His speed is nice... but while it is faster than bullet jumping, it's not that much faster and I have almost zero control. If I want massive linear speed, I'd either pull out an archwing or a small child.

And in all those instances that you've listed those abilities are meant to be their front line defense.  Where as kinetic plating is intended to be your secondary defense, speed and cc being your primary.  And that's cool that you have options.  Doesn't change my statement about his design intent though.  You can feel free to dislike their specific fantasy they wanted to go with for Gauss.  But you can't fault it in an objective manner just because it's not the specific fantasy you wanted.

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Il y a 1 heure, (XB1)Knight Raime a dit :

And in all those instances that you've listed those abilities are meant to be their front line defense.  Where as kinetic plating is intended to be your secondary defense, speed and cc being your primary.  And that's cool that you have options.  Doesn't change my statement about his design intent though.  You can feel free to dislike their specific fantasy they wanted to go with for Gauss.  But you can't fault it in an objective manner just because it's not the specific fantasy you wanted.

What you fail to see (intentionally ?) is that all frames kits he listed aren't impaired by their own defensive powers. No one cares about Gauss having some CC (12m radius only CC and frontal knockdown aren't lifesavers at higher levels anyway - sure it helps but stop telling us Gauss doesn't need to rely upon kinetic plating at some point - this power isn't by any means built as a "secondary" defense... damage mitigation is always your primary line of defense).

You can call things you don't agree with fantasy all day, it won't make kinetic plating and the terrible battery management better. As OP said, synergies aren't even a reality if you're using this power, battery is globally barely useful if you're using this power. We aren't talking about fantasy nor design, but only about balance.

We all got you're Gauss fanboy now but this is a feedback thread so any kind of constructive criticism is a good thing to help this frame being improved. Just like any new frame it definitely needs some tweaks - kinetic plating along with battery management aren't still balanced.

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1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

What you fail to see (intentionally ?) is that all frames kits he listed aren't impaired by their own defensive powers. No one cares about Gauss having some CC (12m radius only CC and frontal knockdown aren't lifesavers at higher levels anyway - sure it helps but stop telling us Gauss doesn't need to rely upon kinetic plating at some point - this power isn't by any means built as a "secondary" defense... damage mitigation is always your primary line of defense).

You can call things you don't agree with fantasy all day, it won't make kinetic plating and the terrible battery management better. As OP said, synergies aren't even a reality if you're using this power, battery is globally barely useful if you're using this power. We aren't talking about fantasy nor design, but only about balance.

We all got you're Gauss fanboy now but this is a feedback thread so any kind of constructive criticism is a good thing to help this frame being improved. Just like any new frame it definitely needs some tweaks - kinetic plating along with battery management aren't still balanced.

-That literally doesn't change my argument.  Those are those frames primary survival tools.  Kinetic plating isn't his.  "no one cares" yeah cool.  Again, doesn't change the situation.  If you don't like the design of speed and cc being his main defense then he's not your frame.

-The fantasy part was about the OP's issue with how much/little freedom of movement his speed ability has.  So if you're going to attempt to actually counter anything i'm saying at least be aware of what you're attempting to argue against instead of cherry picking responses for your own benefit.

-I'm literally not a fanboy if you've been keeping up with my discussion in the main thread.  I've openly stated I have issues with parts of his kit in that thread.  And I did come around to the whole cost argument literally today when someone was kind enough to provide me video evidence that goes against what my experience from viewing has been so far.  But I mean if you need to take low blows at me for your free ez forum karma that's no skin off my nose.  

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I'm a massive fan of The Flash so this frame is right up my alley but ... here's some tough love.

Personal opinion here so please hold it on the bashing.

Gauss isn't a poorly designed frame by any means but he also isn't great. He is supposed to stay moving to keep his battery up there but the thing is, whenever I stop to shoot something, the battery starts lowering. I am not being picky about it since I can just rush a couple of walls to get ... my battery up again?... I mean this is the problem right here though - the battery takes long to raise up, it doesn't take long to lower, if you're damaged then it's gone faster still, and I have to stop the action to rush walls up or spam his 3 to get it up again.

I also do agree it would be nice for him to have some squad synergy, heck lemme share my 4's buff like Chroma does (that would probably be a bit broken though but Harrow does it) but I bet this will be left for a friggin' augment like it happened with Khora and her 1.

Still I don't know what to make of it, he's an incredibly fun frame to play, doesn't feel that overpowered but increasing his battery is annoying as all hell:
> You stop - battery starts dying;
> You get hit while your 2 is active - battery dies;
> You're in Eidolons, constantly getting hit by procs from everywhere? - You either spam 1 + 3 or your battery dies incredibly fast;

Again, he doesn't really need a buff in my opinion, he does however DESPERATELY NEED some quality of life upgrades.

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Il y a 8 heures, (XB1)Knight Raime a dit :

-That literally doesn't change my argument.  Those are those frames primary survival tools.  Kinetic plating isn't his.  "no one cares" yeah cool.  Again, doesn't change the situation.  If you don't like the design of speed and cc being his main defense then he's not your frame.

-The fantasy part was about the OP's issue with how much/little freedom of movement his speed ability has.  So if you're going to attempt to actually counter anything i'm saying at least be aware of what you're attempting to argue against instead of cherry picking responses for your own benefit.

-I'm literally not a fanboy if you've been keeping up with my discussion in the main thread.  I've openly stated I have issues with parts of his kit in that thread.  And I did come around to the whole cost argument literally today when someone was kind enough to provide me video evidence that goes against what my experience from viewing has been so far.  But I mean if you need to take low blows at me for your free ez forum karma that's no skin off my nose.  

You're the only one who brings fantasy here, and not even a single argument.

Let me explain you how Gauss whole kit is supposed to work and synergize.

1. Get 100% battery

2. Cast Redline

3. Cast 1 and 3 (frost only) to never be under 100% battery or you'll stop getting redline charge.

4. Pray to be able to get 100% redline before its duration expires.

5. Then you can cast kinetic plating with no cost and enjoy a few seconds of tankiness (if you still need it at this time - which is kind of dumb as a mechanics tbh)

Since you're ending at 100% redline you can rince & repeat and start all over again at 2 with a full battery.

 

If you're depleting your battery yourself at any point Gauss whole kit is basically screwed cause you're already spamming 1 & 3 to NOT go under 100% battery,

If you're ending redline by yourself (likely not at 100% yet then) or using thermal (fire) or kinetic plating you'll never synergize anything and basically fail at getting 100% redline, you're good to start all over again and the funniest part, you'll start at a ridiculous low level battery - so you basically have to spam even more 1 & 3...

Still not seeing what's wrong with Gauss whole gameplay ? If you're using kinetic plating and Thermal with fire (so half of his kit and synergies) without 100% redline, you're preventing his whole kit from working - no synergies at all and the worst part - you're ruining your whole redline session.

Gauss is working with 40-60s redline cooldowns, you need a full minute to build some stupid ressource and enjoy a few seconds synergies, which means you'll never be able to enjoy his potential at the right time, everything is activated at the same time - ever. You can't even speed up redline gain or freeze its loss, this part of Gauss is stupid as hell - Game is controlling this frame, not you.

And tbh i wouldn't even play Gauss without using Redline so what's the point. Gauss needs some serious balance tweaks and perhaps a way to help with redline's overcharged battery management. Not being able to use Gauss whole kit is no fun (and it's not a good job either).

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I don't agree with everything said in the OP, but there is nonetheless much to be said about Gauss's design. To some extent, I think many of his problems perfectly encapsulate broader issues with DE's warframe design: despite the fact that one of the game's biggest strengths is its fluid movement, we're still getting frames with clunky animations and patterns that seem to fundamentally misunderstand Warframe's own movement system. Additionally, we're recently seeing this wave of extremely selfish frames that don't seem to bring much to the table besides damage, with Gauss's triple-steroid kit and dump-stat CC ability taking it to an unprecedented extreme. These issues need to be resolved so that our warframes can be more diverse and feel better to play.

I can also agree that with Gauss in particular, there's this strange focus on synergy to a point where most of his kit ends up being really mediocre until he reaches this particular state: while I think synergies are important and valuable on a frame, the frame needs to feel good as a baseline, and then feel excellent when taken to the next level, whereas Gauss outside of Redline just feels a little incomplete. I also feel that the whole multiple resource management minigame conflicts with the basic idea of using speed as a weapon, and I feel he'd be fine if he just had his Battery to manage, rather than Energy on top of it (not that Energy's a particularly strong restriction nowadays, though). 

To a large extent, it feels like Gauss is a frame with perhaps one solid, fleshed-out ability (his 1), and a kit that is otherwise mostly filler: his passive is uninspired, his 2 is this by-the-numbers DR steroid, his 3 is this half-baked elemental ability whose multiple outputs boil down to a single useful effect (which itself gets diminished due to its reliance on a stat Gauss is otherwise encouraged to reduce), and his 4 is this other steroid that doesn't actually do that well with the one stat it really makes use of (the Redline counter grows more slowly with Duration). There's a lot that's fun to him, but so much that is just kinda there, and is more functional than fun. I'd personally move his 1 to his passive, so that sprinting puts him in Mach Rush, and then find four different abilities to give him that encourage him to move around lots and do interesting things to enemies (or even allies as well) while in motion.

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10 hours ago, 000l000 said:

You're the only one who brings fantasy here, and not even a single argument.

Let me explain you how Gauss whole kit is supposed to work and synergize.

1. Get 100% battery

2. Cast Redline

3. Cast 1 and 3 (frost only) to never be under 100% battery or you'll stop getting redline charge.

4. Pray to be able to get 100% redline before its duration expires.

5. Then you can cast kinetic plating with no cost and enjoy a few seconds of tankiness (if you still need it at this time - which is kind of dumb as a mechanics tbh)

Since you're ending at 100% redline you can rince & repeat and start all over again at 2 with a full battery.

Actually it seems to me the most optimal way to play Gauss is to turn on his kinetic plating to gain a lot of energy and then turn it off.  Then build your battery.  Then pop redline.  then keep moving and casting.  Because holding down sprint even when you aim glide  or jump/bullet jump still counts as sprinting for the gauge and completely counter acts redline's drain.  As we know the higher your battery is the faster the redline meter fills up.  You must be doing something wrong if you only end up with a few seconds of 100% max redline.  It's very easy to have 20 ish seconds of it.  You can absolutely cast the fire version if you feel like it since casting cold right after refunds the entire battery you wasted.

10 hours ago, 000l000 said:

If you're depleting your battery yourself at any point Gauss whole kit is basically screwed cause you're already spamming 1 & 3 to NOT go under 100% battery,

If you're ending redline by yourself (likely not at 100% yet then) or using thermal (fire) or kinetic plating you'll never synergize anything and basically fail at getting 100% redline, you're good to start all over again and the funniest part, you'll start at a ridiculous low level battery - so you basically have to spam even more 1 & 3...

Yes I understand his kit mechanics this is redundant.

10 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Still not seeing what's wrong with Gauss whole gameplay ? If you're using kinetic plating and Thermal with fire (so half of his kit and synergies) without 100% redline, you're preventing his whole kit from working - no synergies at all and the worst part - you're ruining your whole redline session.

As i've very clearly mentioned in my reply that you decided to steam roll over just to take shots at me more I very clearly pointed out I have my own issues with the kit.  And since yesterday I do believe that it's a flaw to have this many battery drain resources on top of only allowing his boosted abilities when you're above the redline.  In said thread I mentioned that either the costs/drain on the battery needs to go down if I need to be above redline in order to use the boosted abilities.  OR we can keep the draining and costs as is but the boosted synergies need to be accessible the moment you activate redline.

If you're trying to convince me that he's so incredibly flawed that he needs some major overhaul or he's actually garbage then you might as well quit.  Because you won't.  I acknowledge his kit has issues and i've never said it didn't.  My main point of contention was always against the claims about his battery costs/drain and energy upkeep.  Which again, i've back peddled on and told you as such because someone actually bothered to give me proof of such rather than just screeching at me like you're doing.

10 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Gauss is working with 40-60s redline cooldowns, you need a full minute to build some stupid ressource and enjoy a few seconds synergies, which means you'll never be able to enjoy his potential at the right time, everything is activated at the same time - ever. You can't even speed up redline gain or freeze its loss, this part of Gauss is stupid as hell - Game is controlling this frame, not you.

Incorrect.  The fastest you can possibly build up redline affords you 1/3rd of whatever your duration for the ability is.  So in high duration builds you can have around 20 seconds give or take a few to enjoy those nice benefits without burning any battery what so ever.  That's a decent chunk of time in my book.

10 hours ago, 000l000 said:

And tbh i wouldn't even play Gauss without using Redline so what's the point. Gauss needs some serious balance tweaks and perhaps a way to help with redline's overcharged battery management. Not being able to use Gauss whole kit is no fun (and it's not a good job either).

I'd play gauss just to play gauss because I think he looks and sounds cool and his ability set is interesting as hell for me since i'm big into mobility in any game that offers it.  Mach rush as is can do some really fun and cool things once you learn that you can use jumps and aiming and what not to enhance mach rush play.  I do agree that he needs some adjustments.  I disagree with the notion that he's seriously flawed.  In fact the only reason why i'm arguing that his costs/redline ability interaction should even be looked at is because there really isn't any other frame out there that demands you to play at such a min maxed level with his kit.  This would be fine as a whole except I don't think the level of demand the frame asks of you matches the frame's capabilities.

In other more simpler words his design forces more effort out of you than it's actually worth doing.  And that's a balance issue that DE needs to avoid.  (not to mention the "spam" level needed for his kit to function is almost as bad as baruuk's and we don't need another baruuk.)

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il y a 21 minutes, (XB1)Knight Raime a dit :

This would be fine as a whole except I don't think the level of demand the frame asks of you matches the frame's capabilities.

In other more simpler words his design forces more effort out of you than it's actually worth doing.  And that's a balance issue that DE needs to avoid.  (not to mention the "spam" level needed for his kit to function is almost as bad as baruuk's and we don't need another baruuk.)

Tbh i couldn't follow the topic as much as i wished to because of work but from this point alone i fail to see where your disagreement is (other than the tone of the OP being specifically caustic to spur the topic into an actual discussion). 

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4 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Tbh i couldn't follow the topic as much as i wished to because of work but from this point alone i fail to see where your disagreement is (other than the tone of the OP being specifically caustic to spur the topic into an actual discussion). 

To condense my stance as a whole versus your perspective basically I disagree with your specific points/claims you make.  But I agree on the overall notion that his costs with his battery in conjunction with not having access to his boosted synergies with redline unless above the redline is an issue that's worth being addressed.  As asking someone to maintain a resource that much in order to have access to the other half of his ultimate is a bit insane when no other frame demands that level of upkeep.

I was perfectly fine with the battery drain/cost situation when I had thought that maxing redline with battery only netted you 100%DR and no battery costs.  As framed in that situation it felt like DE was giving you a little extra reward for your skill in maintaining the battery.  Instead we have another Baruuk situation.  Where you're forced to maintain peak performance by going out of your way just so you can have access to an essential part of the kit.  It's not "as bad" as baruuk's situation because unlike Baruuk everything redline gives you as an ability is actually very worthwhile.  (Compared to Baruuk's where you're being forced to maintain just so you get extra time to cosplay as a glorified broom that sweeps enemies around.)

To close the part you specifically quoted is me basically saying that I personally would be fine with leaving his battery costs/drain the same and only having access to his redline synergies above the redline if his kit overall offered a little more player power.  But because it doesn't something needs to be loosened up to re-adjust the effort to power ratio that Gauss currently has.

Hopefully this clears things up for you.

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I mean, the way Gauss sounds like he is intended to be played is to basically beat the team to any location. Isn't that what PvE players do these days? Run faster than everyone, kill everything before anyone else and reach every objective and the team can go screw themselves? That's how it is now in Diablo 3 and even in this game.

So DE made a frame that lets those players basically play that way even better! Yay!

Let's face it, in most random pugs in most types of missions, there's no team in "team" and it's a rush competition to see who kills those low level enemies the fastest, fun be darned.

Isn't Gauss great? Now you can get to that squad of level 20 enemies faster to kill them before anyone else!

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