Nerfs Would Be Fine - Except

[Annnoth]

6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Um... think you'll find you're actually supporting what I said...

There are plenty of other secondary weapons out there that are worth using but they're just not as 'good' as the catchmoon at higher levels, if they could kill enemies as fast they'd be used... it really is as simple as that, the catchmoon is just good at killing stuff quickly.   

DE could have 'fixed' the issue by giving us other options by raising the performance of alternative weapons of different types (I prefer rapid fire 'rifle' type secondary) but nope DE just nerfs the weapons that every one is using....  

 

That depends purely on your philosophy on how you want to handle things like this. You're right, by comparison every other weapon in the game is bad pretty much but that's purely the fault of catchmoon being too good and needs to be addressed locally.

By doing anything else in an attempt to bring up other options you fail to realize the problem was not just because it does high damage and other options don't, it's mechanically strong. So long as it does enough damage it will always be better than pretty much anything else for the bulk of what warframe is, killing mass quantities of enemies with deadly efficiency. The idea of having a giant cylinder that is a 5x40m dimension cylinder where anything inside it dies no matter what with no danger to the user at all will always beat out whatever damage anything like a lex prime or kohmak would get.

 

[SneakyErvin]

Not really sure why they went with the obvious nerfnuke approach instead of the regular nerfbat. They nerfed the gun in too many places all at once so they'll never really find the sweet spot to go back too incase they decide they overdid it.

Dropoff range was obviously going to need an adjustment and the same with drop of damage. But going with 90% at max range aswell as nerfing actual max range from 40m down to 20m seems a bit like going overboard and not really having any idea what makes the gun so popular.

75% dropoff damage, maximum range reduced to 30m and dropoff starting at 10m and hitting max at 20m would have been a more balanced initial nerf that they could itterate on further down the line if needed, in either direction.

[Gurpgork]

31 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

But considering they didn't do it when they trashed Tonkor doubt they'll do it now.

I know they definitely did that after at least one of the big weapon nerfs. They gave everyone that had one something like 3 forma and a potato. 

It might not have been the Tonkor, but I know they did that for one of the balance passes. 

[KnightOwl_]

Protip:  when playing an online, multiplayer game, (PVE or PVP, doesnt matter and shouldn't matter) invest in meta at your own risk, because nerfs will happen.  If its OP like the catchmoon is, eventually it will eat a nerf.  The same thing is going to happen to your 5/5 melee rivens for stuff like Gram.  To be surprised at this point is to bet naive.  

[0_The_F00l]

It will likely still be use able.

The changes are (indirectly) going to change the DPS by reducing its effective range, not the actual damage stats.

Whether it breaks the weapon or brings it on par with others in its class will only be clear once we actually get it.

It was indeed far too powerful for its damage and utility, i am just surprised it took them this long.

 

On a side note:

I personally would have preferred if the range stayed , but the damage reduced with each successful enemy damaged in the path.

I may just make that suggestion still in the official suggestion and feedback threadds.

 

[SneakyErvin]

20 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It will likely still be use able.

The changes are (indirectly) going to change the DPS by reducing its effective range, not the actual damage stats.

Whether it breaks the weapon or brings it on par with others in its class will only be clear once we actually get it.

It was indeed far too powerful for its damage and utility, i am just surprised it took them this long.

 

On a side note:

I personally would have preferred if the range stayed , but the damage reduced with each successful enemy damaged in the path.

I may just make that suggestion still in the official suggestion and feedback threadds.

It all depends on what "on par" in this case would mean. It is a modular, yet it has suddenly gotten nerfed down to fit somewhere between MR 6 to 8. With the planned nerfs it is currently worse off than Fulmin primary fire, which in itself is nothing but a star chart hero weapon when it comes to the primary fire function. One would assume that modular weapons should be sort of endgame, so should preferably match weapons ranging somewhere between MR 10-15.

It will just be a way too unreliable gun due to the extreme range nerf and the never before seen very harsh 90% damage falloff.

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, Annnoth said:

That depends purely on your philosophy on how you want to handle things like this. You're right, by comparison every other weapon in the game is bad pretty much but that's purely the fault of catchmoon being too good and needs to be addressed locally.

That's a rather weird philosophy to blame other weapons being bad because there is one weapon that is good.... you've literally just agreed with me when you said that the other weapons are bad and need improving.... 

 

1 hour ago, Annnoth said:

By doing anything else in an attempt to bring up other options you fail to realize the problem was not just because it does high damage and other options don't, it's mechanically strong. So long as it does enough damage it will always be better than pretty much anything else for the bulk of what warframe is, killing mass quantities of enemies with deadly efficiency. The idea of having a giant cylinder that is a 5x40m dimension cylinder where anything inside it dies no matter what with no danger to the user at all will always beat out whatever damage anything like a lex prime or kohmak would get.

 

IMO it is actually primarily about being able to kill stuff quickly, note I'm not using the term damage because it's a lot more nuanced than that, although obviously this will have an impact. 

If the game wasn't about being able to kill stuff quickly we wouldn't have meta weapons, which are essentially the strongest weapons, or rivens being bought for massive amounts of plat just because it means they get more damage...

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by LSG501

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

This is why anytime a mega meta technique or item shows it’s face and every tells you you need to use/get it. AVOID IT LIKE THE DAMN PLAGUE! Because it will get nerfed.

Edited October 26, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Numerikuu]

Glad I don't follow Youtubers and form my own opinion. Touched that weapon a year ago and knew after one use it was gonna be hit with the nerf hammer, so I never touched it again. It's been OP for far too long. Hopefully DE works on other things that are just as OP and group-unfriendly.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Numerikuu

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Correction,

The Catchmoon riven got a slight nerf. The riven, the mod not needed on your weapon foe it to be good. The weapon itself is still great.

I see other people beat me to it, on correcting this comment.

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

In the mainline the Catchmoon itself is taking a huge nerf. Who would have guessed an AoE with no self damage and high base damage would be effective? It's not like we had Tonkor or anything.

I don't use Catchmoon, and I never really have a reason to. However, this is another example of DE looking at stuff way too late after many players invested into it. Chroma calculations, Maiming Strike, Condition Overload, Blood Rush could all have been balanced before they even released. Leaving these outliers in the game for years is unhealthy and fixing them years later burns a lot of players.

See that's the thing. I get why they're nerfing it. But I feel like when they do S#&$ like this it burns people and it feels icky to me. Maybe "predatory" is a strong word but idk what else I would call it.

People were tripping over themselves investing standing/materials/forma/potato/rivens because it was so strong and whaddya know, huge nerfs no refunds.

3 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

umm, I think you need to check the updates to the update....

Also, everything in this game is subject to change. People have lost way way more in previous changes and reworks, the Tonkor comes to mind. It's all part of the game. Those resources are hardly limited and easy to come by 

Also, wtf does it take weeks to get and level up a weapon? Kitguns are very easy to come by. The standing is easy to get, and the resources aren't that rare

I think the listen here is don't listen to what other people have to say. Taking advice is fine and all, but at the end of the day it's your game and you play it how you like. CM is hardly the only 'god' weapon in the game that you must use for high level content 

I love how people still bring up the tonkor.

You got a point. Everything is subject to change and this wont be the first time people "lose" and it wont be the last but I think it's kinda shady, or at the very least careless, of DE to introduce something blatantly cheeseball (catchmoon, arca plasmor, fulmin?), let everyone go crazy investing in that item (including rivens) and then hit them with heavy nerfs they only had to hit them with because of the imbalance they created.

[KnightOwl_]

People feel icky because they either 1. Can’t handle not having stupidly OP gear as a form of easy mode for their frail egos or 2. Have never played a multiplayer ARPG/MMO before because anyone who has, saw the catchmoon in action and knew the nerf hammer was coming eventually.  

[failedtodiet]

43 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Glad I don't follow Youtubers and form my own opinion. Touched that weapon a year ago and knew after one use it was gonna be hit with the nerf hammer, so I never touched it again. It's been OP for far too long. Hopefully DE works on other things that are just as OP and group-unfriendly.

 So people do actively avoid using strong weapons because they're afraid of nerf in the future. This feels like a punishment to me.

Edited October 26, 2019 by failedtodiet

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

I understand why the Catchmoon is being nerfed.  But try and look at it from an average, non-hardcore, player perspective.  
 

Every YouTuber - Get the Catchmoon.  Everyone in game - Get the Catchmoon.  
 

Me - spends weeks getting the Catchmoon. 
Me - spends weeks leveling up the Catchmoon (3x)

Me - spends 3 forma, an Orokin catalyst and an Eidolon Lens on the Catchmoon.  
 

Finally, I have a sidearm that i can use on harder content.  
 

DE - We’re nerfing the Catchmoon.   Only hardcore players can have nice things.  Now you have it, we take it away.  
 

So the time invested is somewhat demoralizing.  The Catchmoon is relatively hard to acquire compared to other guns after all.  
 

But what kills me is the forma, lens, catalyst.   Can we at least have the ability to scrap an item and get all the stuff back?   That’s expensive stuff to me.   
 

Even if you could only scrap one time per 50 login days - that would’ve enough.  
 

Yeah, yeah - to you guys it’s easy come easy go, you have so many potatoes you don’t know what to do with them. But not everyone is like you.   This was an expensive investment for me.   
 

(and if it were nerfed a little it wouldn’t matter, but nerfs always seem to be into the ground.   )

Aaaannnddd... that's how nerfs work. It was your choice to build it. It's not DE's fault you decided to build the weapon, therefore it's not their responsibility to refund the resources you chose to invest. They did this for the overall health of the game. Does it suck hard? Yes. But is it fair? Maybe. But consider this:

Now, imagine DE did what you're asking and refunded players' resources. This would set up abuse of a refund system, and people can use a weapon and then complain, "We aren't satisfied by it," and ask for a refund. I could go and build a Soma Prime, get bored of it, and ask DE to refund it. This would put DE into a potential PR disaster. They're stuck between, "Do we allow this abuse or do we look like A******s and mess up our image and piss off our playerbase?" 

That would be VERY detrimental to Warframe and DE as a whole.

[torint_man]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

Every YouTuber - Get the Catchmoon.  Everyone in game - Get the Catchmoon.

They said that because it's heinously overpowered and requires little investment all things considered.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

Me - spends weeks getting the Catchmoon. 

It only takes weeks if you are starting fortuna form scratch, in which case those weeks opened up every single other thing fortuna has to offer.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

Me - spends weeks leveling up the Catchmoon (3x)

That is heinously inefficient. Even normal, casual gameplay shouldn't make it take longer than a couple hours each time, assuming you actually use it, and half an hour if you go to hydron.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

Me - spends 3 forma, an Orokin catalyst and an Eidolon Lens on the Catchmoon.

3 forma and a catalyst aren't that much of an investment, and lenses should only be put on things that you are going to use for specific focus power farms.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

DE - We’re nerfing the Catchmoon.   Only hardcore players can have nice things.  Now you have it, we take it away.

The catchmoon is still going to be good. You just have to be closer to get the same damage output. Practically speaking, the catchmoon does so much overkill in terms of its damage output you'll still one shot hallways of mooks.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

The Catchmoon is relatively hard to acquire compared to other guns after all.

Not really. Sure, it's harder to get than the weapons you can just get a blueprint of in the market or your clan, but once you've progressed through fortuna, it's not that hard. Certainly easier than a lot of prime frames IMO.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

But what kills me is the forma, lens, catalyst.   Can we at least have the ability to scrap an item and get all the stuff back?   That’s expensive stuff to me.

DE will probably give every catchmoon owner a forma assuming it goes down the same way the tonkor did. Also, you are assuming that the entirety of your investment got taken away from you and dropped into the void, never to be seen again. Get over yourself. The weapon still exists, it still deals the same amount of damage, it's just actually balanced now.

Basically, by your logic, you are in essence saying "because it takes time to get things, nothing should be nerfed."  

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, ChaosSabre said:

Nope they just gave you 3 forma per nerfed weapon. No extras or potatoes back.

There doesn't seem to have been any mention of that for catchmoon, ember or vauban so far.... yes we're getting a booster 3 forma, 3 events with forma and a legendary core with the update, which is more for the weapons, but it's hardly 'fair' compensation considering how many forma we might end up using to 'fix' all the things that might change after the update. 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It all depends on what "on par" in this case would mean. It is a modular, yet it has suddenly gotten nerfed down to fit somewhere between MR 6 to 8. With the planned nerfs it is currently worse off than Fulmin primary fire, which in itself is nothing but a star chart hero weapon when it comes to the primary fire function. One would assume that modular weapons should be sort of endgame, so should preferably match weapons ranging somewhere between MR 10-15.

It will just be a way too unreliable gun due to the extreme range nerf and the never before seen very harsh 90% damage falloff.

On par with tombfinger , rattleguts or gaze is what i meant.

Your assumption of modular being endgame is just that , an assumption as the other three types are not used that frequently.

also MR is not an accurate indicator of weapon power some low mr weapons can manage to last very long , and some of the highest MR weapons are nearly unusable in regular content due to minor utility issues.

if they were purely based on MR , there should have been an MR lock on the blueprints for modular weapons, which there aren't.

And as i mentioned already , i would have preferred a slightly different approach for a mechanical change than what wwas done.

[nslay]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

Me - spends 3 forma, an Orokin catalyst and an Eidolon Lens on the Catchmoon.  

Don't you worry. This is really a drop in the bucket. Before you know it, you'll have numerous forma'd/potato'd secondaries to choose from!

[Hawkstormz]

Thing is people make the neff seem to be much worse than it is. What youl be loosing on the catchmoon is just range dmg and aoe effect will still be the same it just wont go across a whole tile so its a fair thing to make a shoty type weapon work like a shoty

[Monolake]

" Every YouTuber - Get the Catchmoon.  Everyone in game - Get the Catchmoon.   "

Right, because it was obvious to everyone it was the strongest with the highest stats and punch-trough on top, obvious to everyone except DE.  They should have never made it this much stronger from the start. Absolutely no one likes nerfs. Things should be balanced right away, before all the players jump on the bandwagon. 

[SneakyErvin]

56 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

On par with tombfinger , rattleguts or gaze is what i meant.

Your assumption of modular being endgame is just that , an assumption as the other three types are not used that frequently.

also MR is not an accurate indicator of weapon power some low mr weapons can manage to last very long , and some of the highest MR weapons are nearly unusable in regular content due to minor utility issues.

if they were purely based on MR , there should have been an MR lock on the blueprints for modular weapons, which there aren't.

And as i mentioned already , i would have preferred a slightly different approach for a mechanical change than what wwas done.

It will be below tombfinger and gaze after the changes no doubt. Rattleguts is just in a bad spot in so many ways. Wonder if they'll eagerly buff that or just leave it. 

And it isnt really an assumption. Zaws and kitguns are endgame weapons. They arent your run of the mill buy-bp-from-market-and-craft. They actually take time and planning to get aswell as some trial and error in the early stages to get the right combo of parts working.

And while MR may not be an exact indicator, it is still intended to be. Otherwise what is the reason for shifting around MR's for the new melee update, or for the previous ranged weapon updates if they dont have an actual plan regarding how MR should translate to weapon strengths?

They have other restrictions instead, which should let them follow unique rules.

Indeed, same here. Sane people (us) cant really deny that a nerf was needed. My only gripe with it is the complete nuke approach to the nerfing instead of just going at it with the good 'ol bat. They just went too far and I honestly cannot see a real use for catchmoon after the changes. I mean it is getting even worse than they said in the dev stream. There they said it would have dropoff between 10-20, now all of a sudden it is betwenn 8-16m with a max range of 20m. That is increadibly short, especially with the 100 to 10, or as I assume 90% dropoff at the now new 16m range.

Who came up with the extremely random and extremely high 90%? And why did they suddenly decide to put the max falloff at 16m, which is 4 meters shorter than the Fulmin. The Fulmin which has nearly the same crit chance and crit damage plus higher base damage.

Feels like they asked the magic 8 ball in this case.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Hawkstormz said:

Thing is people make the neff seem to be much worse than it is. What youl be loosing on the catchmoon is just range dmg and aoe effect will still be the same it just wont go across a whole tile so its a fair thing to make a shoty type weapon work like a shoty

Except it wont be comparable even to the 2 shotties that work similar to it. 

Arca P = 30m range, falloff damage 100-33% between 10m and 20m.

Fulmin = 20m range, falloff damage 100-33% between 10-20m.

Catchmoon = 20m range, falloff damage 100-10% between 8-16m.

This is before we go into details regarding damage and crit stats aswell as other possible perks.

Since the main use of it has been to take care of drones (likely why it sees the high usage numbers) it will be completely pointless to bring it instead of Arca P after the nerfs since Arca will pack enough punch to kill the drones while also being reliable due to the 33% and not 10% max falloff. Fulmin will also serve the same role better, since it also has a reliable 33% of its damage left at maximum rage. Arca P wins though since it has 30m max range in the end.

Wonder how long it will take before Arca P suddenly gets the numbers that Catchmoon currently has now that arbitrations have become a more common mode.

[(PSN)Dishinshoryuken]

To all those that STILL think these mega punch weapons are done by accident....

COME ON!!!

It's part of the Free to Play guide. You give them humdrum stuff that they have to use for a while and then you supply the masses with a high power weapon. They clamour for the weapon and use it so much that they do not realize they are playing much more. And then, once the seasons have passed and you get more new players in attempting to get said item, you then Nerf it into the ground.

The complaints come in about time, resources, the hard grind....and then settle down to then use the humdrums for a while.... AND THEN, OUT OF THE BLUE, ANOTHER MEGAPOWER WEAPON APPEARS IN THE WILD!!! Rinse.

Repeat.

Come back again for another exciting episode of Power Creep

 

[xcrimsonlegendx]

8 hours ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

Refunding the resources put in might not be a bad idea.

That's what the original Fortnite (PvE) does, when they nerf a weapon/character they offer a "reset" feature that ranks that item back to level 1 and refunds all materials invested into it.

[(PSN)Limorkil]

Well this all went about as l expected.  
 

I was clear I wasn’t against the nerf, I just don’t understand why we can’t get the resources back.  Eidolon lenses are not easy to come by and a potato is a rare thing, for me at least.   
 

So do all the arguments for the nerf help? Not really.  I understand why nerfs happen.  I just wanted to point out that something gets nerfed because MR 27 people use it too much, but the mid-MR people pay a higher price.  The more casual players that ultimately make up most of the player base.  
 

Look at it this way - many of those high MR players probably already stopped playing.  
 

A lot of the arguments make no sense.  
DE nerf it because hardcore players over use it.  Ok fine.  That’s not me.  I use lots of different weapons but I only put a lot of resources into a few because it’s expensive.  I think I’ve got 5 Eidolon Lenses ever.  
“Oh why you complain. It’s easy to grind those resources and level up weapons on Hydron” 

Ok, so now I have to tow the line and be like everyone else.   So the nerf is to stop everyone being the same, and it’s justified because everyone should just do the same.   Logic.
 

Also, I appreciate the “they never gave refunds before” argument.   Doesn’t make it right.  That’s basically saying “Everything different is bad. “. Once again saying, nothing should change and everyone should do the same.  
 

And the game imbalance through refunding resources is a garbage argument.  Why straw man an end of the world version?   I said maybe you could “scrap” one weapon every 50 login days.  That’s hardly breaking the game.  Make it 100 if you fear the abuse of the system.  
 

In conclusion: I’m just recording my distaste of a game design that can arbitrarily nerf an item after people have invested heavily in it.  If there was a refund system then the nerf would have no sting, no de-motivation.  It seems easy to fix.  Maybe you are not demotivated.   Fine.  We are not all the same.  
 

My thanks to those people who make an effort to understand my point - even if they disagree.   I wasn’t really saying anything would negatively impact anyone.  If anything, it would be a net positive for the game.  

[Chaemyerelis]

It doesn't need to be OP to the point that it trivializes enemies. It will still be a good weapon therefore no refund is needed. Also nerfs and buffs is the name of the game for online games, be prepared for things to get nerfed; so have that in the back of your mind if things like forma and potatoes are rare for you.