Feedback on the recent update

[General_Durandal]

4 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

It's not a scam, it's just how cars work. Using this depreciation site, you can see that a 10-year-old car that initially cost $30k is now worth about $882. After 10 years, it's getting up there in mileage, it's time to replace the timing belt. This procedure can cost up to $900 dollars (mostly in labour costs). The cost to repair the car is literally more than it's worth. This exact scenario has happened to me. It's why timing chains are coming back into fashion, because they don't need to be replaced as often.

You're taking two weapons with the same riven disposition and showing how you can get different DPS numbers on them. I was saying that you can take two weapons with wildly different riven dispositions, and the riven will help the weaker weapon come up to the level of the stronger one.

Where do you live where you can get a car that was once 30k for less then 1k?
But I can see the reasoning in what you say.
Buy a riven for 1k plat now, it will be worth 100 plat or less later.
But off course, with a car that price drops slowly over years.
With Rivens? It can be 10k today, and 1k tomorrow.
It's something anyone would complain about.
Hek, I bought a set of 10 Barrier Arcanes for 1k plat, a week later the price dropped dramatically.
Which is the reason I personally won't buy that kind of stuff anymore.

Doesn't mater what weapons I compare, the one with the most damage will always get the best boosts from rivens.
(well, actually Soma Prime with 12 base damage can deal more damage then Prisma Grakata with 14 base damage, even though Soma has a disposition of 2 on the ui)
(which is really weird, becouse it has worse stats, and worse disposition, but beter riven numbers?)
(pretty sure it actually has better then 2, it's just the UI showing the wrong value)
The big main thing real is if the Rivens are better or worse then non-riven mods.
Take the Ignis for instance.
It has a disposition of 1,
even the best possible riven you get is only slightly better then a normal mod you can use.
Weapons with a disposition of 1 have worthless rivens, I found that out the hard way too.

[Cubewano]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)segulibanez65 said:

Because DE can do no wrong in their eyes, lol

Because it's a solidly crafted rebalance that brought a lot of weapons in line while making their interactions more satisfying.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)segulibanez65 said:

Why do you care what other people want to do with their time?  Christ... Its a video game, none of it is credible... to/for/of ANYTHING... Because WF is not real.  None of it matters in the grand scheme, just like all of our miserable lives in relation to the wrinkled hands of time.  If people want to waste 5 hours, good for them for finding joy in something.  

So long as they want to use whatever time they manage as a defense point for controlling the balance/design of the game, which impacts the playerbase as a whole, one is free to care as they see fit on the matter as it does involve them. 

[Emeraldegg]

7 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Fair enough, allow me to amend my statement:

If you somehow manage to die to the lich and can't spare one of your six four revives to make it go away, you've got bigger problems.

Though I'd say if you're at a point where you can engage with the lich system, which consists of missions level 50+, and you're not running two sets of at least some dirt-cheap arcane, you're doing it wrong. Some arcanes, such as Arcane Deflection, can be bought for 1p, meaning that two full sets cost as much as a potato. If you're running level 50+ missions and can't afford that, you've got bigger problems.

Oh, and there's no such thing as "abuse". Yes, I do use what you would probably consider OP meta gear. This is a game about figuring out and obtaining a loadout that allows you to kill as quickly and efficiently as possible, so if you don't use the strongest stuff available to you, you're doing it wrong.

It is very pretentious of you to presume that the purpose of the game to you is the same for everyone. If the game was about simply trying to kill as quickly as possible, then the devs would just leave stuff as it is since it's already known what the best stuff. The devs wouldn't be introducing new weapons and warframes for variety's sake. 

Some people like the way it feels to stealth their way through a mission. Some people like melee weapons. Some people like guns. Some people like abilities. Everyone has their own way to play the game, and while I agree in this instance that it's not "abuse" to use OP stuff since your way is just another way that some people like to play the game, you telling others that their way of playing is wrong is the very same thing you're upset at the guy accusing you of abuse about, and it's a poor excuse to defend your way of playing.

 

Also, RE: rivens and how their prices fluctuate, there seems to be 2 sides here, one being "You should have known what you were getting into" and "DE needs to handle them better." IMO, these do not have to be mutually exclusive things; while there are certainly things that DE could do handle riven changes better, that being true does not absolve the OP or anyone else of any responsibility for having a riven that gets tanked. Whether or not you agree with the rules, the rules are there and spelled out plainly for all to see, shifting all of the blame onto DE is irresponsible. That's like going to a used car salesman that you know for a fact has a crappy reputation, buying a car, then crying foul when the car goes kaput. Yes, it is not a good thing that the salesman has done, but if you did the thing anyway then you are acknowledge the risks of doing so and deciding consciously that it's worth it to you. You can't not have at least SOME responsibility when you end up on the losing end of that deal.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Emeraldegg
additional info

[George_PPS]

All these NERFs are TERRIBLE. First time I and friends are not logging in anymore. Two more friends were about to join after this update 26. I told them we are quitting Warframe that is becoming a very different and slow game that is not Warframe. Not worth spending any time or efforts on any good/top gears that will end up nerfed to the ground. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by George_PPS

[SordidDreams]

5 minutes ago, Emeraldegg said:

It is very pretentious of you to presume that the purpose of the game to you is the same for everyone. If the game was about simply trying to kill as quickly as possible, then the devs would just leave stuff as it is since it's already known what the best stuff. The devs wouldn't be introducing new weapons and warframes for variety's sake. 

Some people like the way it feels to stealth their way through a mission. Some people like melee weapons. Some people like guns. Some people like abilities. Everyone has their own way to play the game, and while I agree in this instance that it's not "abuse" to use OP stuff since your way is just another way that some people like to play the game, you telling others that their way of playing is wrong is the very same thing you're upset at the guy accusing you of abuse about, and it's a poor excuse to defend your way of playing.

It's not pretentious, it's correct. The purpose of the game is to find and acquire the best, most efficient methods of killing. Devs adding more weapons is just their way of extending the lifespan of the game by giving players new stuff to test, evaluate, and either discard or start using instead of their old gear. Players using different playstyles and weapon types are simply taking different routes to the same ultimate destination. The only outlier is stealth, and stealth gameplay in WF is so laughably bad that anyone who plays the game because of it does so out of ignorance of the existence of much better stealth games.

Edited November 2, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Emeraldegg]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

It's not pretentious, it's correct. The purpose of the game is to find and acquire the best, most efficient methods of killing. Devs adding more weapons is just their way of extending the lifespan of the game, by giving players more stuff to test, evaluate, and either discard or start using instead of their old gear. Players using different playstyles and weapon types are simply taking different routes to the same ultimate destination. The only outlier is stealth, and stealth gameplay in WF is so laughably bad that anyone who plays the game because of it does so out of ignorance of the existence of much better stealth games.

The same ultimate destination of what, exactly? I feel the old saying "it's not the destination that matters, but the journey" is applicable here. If you want to take the quickest route to that destination, that's your right as a player. That route being the quickest does not invalidate all the other routes that others may find more enjoyable.

"Devs adding more weapons is just their way of extending the lifespan of the game, by giving players more stuff to test, evaluate, and either discard or start using instead of their old gear" This part in particular strikes me, you're talking as if players defaulting to their old gear inherently factors into that ultimate quest of "They'll just end up using the most OP stuff" but what if their old gear isn't insanely OP, but stuff they just enjoy using? I'd get it if someone was complaining "OMG I can't kill this hydrolyst with (insert blatantly non-suited equipment here)" or something, but do you really think that people who just enjoy using stuff  other than the most OP stuff in ordinary scenarios are missing the point of the game entirely?

[SordidDreams]

15 hours ago, Emeraldegg said:

The same ultimate destination of what, exactly?

Killing as quickly as possible. It doesn't matter if you're using guns, melee, or abilities, you're still trying to do the same thing.

15 hours ago, Emeraldegg said:

I feel the old saying "it's not the destination that matters, but the journey" is applicable here. If you want to take the quickest route to that destination, that's your right as a player. That route being the quickest does not invalidate all the other routes that others may find more enjoyable.

Of course not, but just because those routes are longer doesn't change the fact that they lead to the same place. Sooner or later those "weak but fun" guns are going to get old, and at that point the player is going to say to themselves, "I wonder if I can kill these guys quicker with something else."

15 hours ago, Emeraldegg said:

This part in particular strikes me, you're talking as if players defaulting to their old gear inherently factors into that ultimate quest of "They'll just end up using the most OP stuff" but what if their old gear isn't insanely OP, but stuff they just enjoy using?

Those tend to be one and the same. More powerful guns tend to be more enjoyable. If that weren't the case, there would be no need to nerf Catchmoon, because it wouldn't be overused. It's a game, literally everything people do in it they do because it's fun. If people use OP stuff, it's because being OP is fun. There are exceptions, of course, but they're exactly that.

15 hours ago, Emeraldegg said:

do you really think that people who just enjoy using stuff  other than the most OP stuff in ordinary scenarios are missing the point of the game entirely?

No, I just think they're taking longer to get to it. It took me like a year to appreciate the Arca Plasmor, which I initially threw away as MR fodder because I didn't understand how it worked and how strong it really was. But once I found out, those other guns that I used to use just ceased to be fun, I couldn't go back to them. So yeah, sure people can enjoy underpowered guns. But sooner or later they're going to move on from them, and there will be no going back (except in really really late game when they have literally nothing else to do, so they start pumping massive amounts of kuva into crappy weapon rivens to try and make complete garbage viable as a self-imposed challange, but very few people ever reach that point, I certainly haven't yet after like five thousand hours).

Edited November 2, 2019 by SordidDreams

[CodeUltimate]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

Because it's a solidly crafted rebalance that brought a lot of weapons in line while making their interactions more satisfying.

So long as they want to use whatever time they manage as a defense point for controlling the balance/design of the game, which impacts the playerbase as a whole, one is free to care as they see fit on the matter as it does involve them. 

LOLOLOLOL ''solidly crafted'' rebalance sure thing m8. What about the butchered gunblade's combos?

[George_PPS]

3 hours ago, Cha0zb0rn said:

I have 2 serious questions for everybody defending the rework and the nerfs:

 

1.) Who benefitted from the rework? 

Is it the causual player? The person how never got past level 100 enemies in the first place? maybe a bit, the basedmg rose quite a bit. 

The "farmer"? The players who spend lots of time grinding for focus and resources? They got gutted. You cant farm higher level content now as easy as before. Still possible but a lot more tedious. 

The high end endurance runner? Those got basicly f*cked. A 2 hour run should not even be possible at this point. A 1 hour run should be extremely difficult by now. 

 

 2.) Why are you even in favor of this rework?

Did farmers or endurance runners ever got in the way of your personal enjoyment of the game? If you are a causual you always had the chance to opt out of a run at the 10 minute mark and farmers usually did farm in solomode anyway so why do you enjoy those players being basicly told by DE that their existence in the game is not wanted? 

 

The game has no endgame. There is literally nothing you can do at some point in the game except from "farming and selling" and "running endurance" for fun. ppl who frequently used the market benefitted greatly from farmers while endurance runners never hurt anybody. So what went wrong in your miserable life that you have to grief those players? There is literally no point in playing this game once you hit level 27. And everything between level 12(-ish, the point where you finish the main story) and level 27 is just grinding exp. You are either just jealous that you never were able to run an endurance run yourself because of the lack of skill or you never put the dedication in the game to reach the point where you were able to get near a million dmg per hit and thus felt inferior. Either way: If you defend the update you are a pretty S#&$ty person. Who in their right mind would defend a nerf that gutted a whole play system by roughly 90%? What sane person would say:"sure, I like small white numbers more than big red numers"? It might "feel better" now, sure, but it has lost its entire purpose. There simply is no reason to go melee anymore. primaries and even secondaries are stronger and safer now. And don't get me started on the "heavy attacks".....those do pretty much nothing aside from wasting your combo counter.

 

 

DE is spending too much time on spread sheets and cold numbers to nerf players’ favorite, hard earned gears and Mods instead of creating new contents.What nerfs next? DE is listening to the wrong people who might be working for other games to try to convince De to balance but actually destroy Warframe. Non-stop nerfing everything, taking away players’ time, efforts, investment and favorite weapons. 

[kevoisvevo]

11 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

They did.

yes it's called one step forward and two steps back. that's why DE will always be an indie company and never amount to anything big 

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

49 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

DE is spending too much time on spread sheets and cold numbers to nerf players’ favorite, hard earned gears and Mods instead of creating new contents.What nerfs next? DE is listening to the wrong people who might be working for other games to try to convince De to balance but actually destroy Warframe. Non-stop nerfing everything, taking away players’ time, efforts, investment and favorite weapons. 

This is what people meant by de not playing their freaking game 

[.Unforgotten.]

Sadly,

My Sepfahn Status focused zaw hits for 280 crits on Nox eximus lvl 125. 

Yep. Feeling nerfed as hell. CO, doesn't make much of a difference for me. BR, is pointless. Even with stacking in Sacrificial Steel, True Punishment and a riven which gives me ALOT of crit (yes my base crit is 12%). I still can't do anything with melee anymore. It's just dance with the combos in front of your enemies to give them a strip tease. 

Now I could try to make a crit focused zaw. But what's the point. The normal melee weapons do a tad bit more than Zaws. And tbh, endurance runs focused on melee are done. 

Sincerely,

. Unforgetten.#9969

[Shinigami_Greed]

1 hour ago, CodeUltimate said:

LOLOLOLOL ''solidly crafted'' rebalance sure thing m8. What about the butchered gunblade's combos?

You mean the dramatically improved Gunblade combos?  Seems like an improvement to me.

[ShogunGunshow]

7 minutes ago, Shinigami_Greed said:

You mean the dramatically improved Gunblade combos?  Seems like an improvement to me.

I mean, I don't really care for Automatic Rhumba's previously shooty-shooty-bang-bang exclusive combo having a random attack in it where you throw the gun. Personally.

[Shinigami_Greed]

1 minute ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I mean, I don't really care for Automatic Rhumba's previously shooty-shooty-bang-bang exclusive combo having a random attack in it where you throw the gun. Personally.

Oh, it does?  Is that a Bullet Dance thing?  I'm just been taking the Grineer to slam town with High Noon's right click combo before blasting them while they try to get up.

 

[ShogunGunshow]

3 minutes ago, Shinigami_Greed said:

Oh, it does?  Is that a Bullet Dance thing?  I'm just been taking the Grineer to slam town with High Noon's right click combo before blasting them while they try to get up.

 

Yeah, it's a Bullet Dance thing. The hold-back combo got changed to a hold-block combo. Not a big deal, really, but it does have that rando attack thrown in there which I was kinda just... why.

Maybe it has a guaranteed status proc or something.

[Shinigami_Greed]

1 minute ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Yeah, it's a Bullet Dance thing. The hold-back combo got changed to a hold-block combo. Not a big deal, really, but it does have that rando attack thrown in there which I was kinda just... why.

Maybe it has a guaranteed status proc or something.

It'll be a while before we know all the properties of the stance attacks again, I think.  Damage multiplies, forced procs, etc.... I'm sure some of those have been moved around. 

.... It is nice that Tempo Royale can do it's big jumping slam whenever though.

[lukasystem]

Kuva Lich is good, except i ended-up using /unstuck more than usual 'cause lich threw me away into the wall non stop.

Grendel's missions are bad (specially defend), remember how people complain about nightwave forcing friend/clanmate squad (not a big deal for me tho), what do they make after a couple of months? another mission with no auto-squad matchmaking, time for some recruit spamming yay, can do solo? sure!, just take a tanky mofo and spam heavy aerial for 15 minutes straight. No matter what argument you have, it's plain vague-design, end of story.

New kavat is ok, not a big farming deal assuming you got everything you need.

Melee is a great QOL improvement for most of my weapons, specially Wolfy's Mace and Gram, War, etc. Little problem is Bullet Dance is slow af now.

 

So far i see good content for the rest of the month.

[(PSN)segulibanez65]

2 hours ago, George_PPS said:

DE is spending too much time on spread sheets and cold numbers to nerf players’ favorite, hard earned gears and Mods instead of creating new contents.What nerfs next? DE is listening to the wrong people who might be working for other games to try to convince De to balance but actually destroy Warframe. Non-stop nerfing everything, taking away players’ time, efforts, investment and favorite weapons. 

Very well said.  Even without working on new content there are still so many issues that they have done nothing to fix, like the broken cetus bounties that end up being on NW's chore schedule.  That f***'in drone STILL gets hung up on terrain every other time I run one of those broken disasters.  Oh, and sticking with the Plains, did we ever hear if the x2x amps were just busted a few patches ago, or was it a nerf?  Really love having to 5-7shot vom's during an eidolon hunt that I could previosly 1-2 shot.  So I adapt by using the catchmoon to ghost them.  Nope, f*** me for trying to get through a hunt at a decent rate!

But yeah, worrying about how many people are using the catchmoon and Blood Rush, that is the best way to spend development time...

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 hours ago, Cha0zb0rn said:

The high end endurance runner? Those got basicly f*cked. A 2 hour run should not even be possible at this point. A 1 hour run should be extremely difficult by now. 

No trust me mate, beyond a few hours we're not using weapons for damage and those methods are still completely untouched and therefore still viable.

[kevoisvevo]

13 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Sorry you couldn't manage to read how Rivens work or why paying for things that will change, no matter what the players say, is entirely on you.

Do you play it or do you go out of your way to make sure you play as little of it as possible?

Away from you seems like a fantastic direction.

why so hostile? who hurt you tonight lol

[FatCuteCat]

Anyone know, how do I get out from archwing in this new update. Even press E I won't allow anymore even I can't open gear wheel. Any idea?

[ElVeterano95]

After the new update the game doesnt update properly... its freezed at 11.6 MB and the update dont load... I tried a few things to resolve it but didnt work... can I get some advice ? 

[ant99999]

10 часов назад, SordidDreams сказал:

That's based on the idea that weapon popularity is be based weapon power, which seems very reasonable to me.

Not as reasonable as it seems. It is a simpler way, that's true. But take into consideration that the players don't use a weapon because it has more power. They use it because it's convenient to use.

But convenience can come from lots of sources. Power is one of them. But there are others.

People can use a weapon because they have a clearer idea about how to build this weapon, ex. if a popular content creator made a guide for it. 

They can use it because it's easier to reach a desired power level with it (what is potentially more powerful, Catchmoon or Kohm, but what is used more often)

They can use a weapon because it has fewer competitors. For example we have only 2 chaining beam weapons, Amprex and Atomos, but we have a ton of semi auto and burst fire rifles from Battacor to Sybaris Prime, which means the popularity of any particular one of said rifles diminishes a lot when compared to chaining beam weapons.

They can just prefer a gun which is newer to a gun that is older.

To summarise this means that popularity is not a particularily reliable way of knowing weapon's power, after all i'm sure Mk1 Braton is still a more popular weapon than Rubico Prime. The developers will have to do manual adjustments either way (that's why they don't nerf Kohm Rivens too much for example), in fact they chose popularity because it is simpler and more profitable.

 

The rest you've said I agree with more or less, and definitely don't want to write another wall of text about. I guess I like to grumble about the balance not being a pinnacle of perfection a little too much. I mean it could be worse after all. At least can we please have rebalances like the one this thread is about a little more often?

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, ant99999 said:

To summarise this means that popularity is not a particularily reliable way of knowing weapon's power, after all i'm sure Mk1 Braton is still a more popular weapon than Rubico Prime. The developers will have to do manual adjustments either way (that's why they don't nerf Kohm Rivens too much for example), in fact they chose popularity because it is simpler and more profitable.

I believe that would be exactly why DE announced they were going to be tweaking dispositions manually a while ago. Though I'm sure they still consult the usage statistics, after all that's literally the only justification given for the Catchmoon nerf.

Edited November 2, 2019 by SordidDreams