I have to know. Why are so many people defending the CO nerf like it’s the greatest thing ever?

[Chaincat]

People be saying CO was dumpstered but my twin basolk melts level 150 corrupted bombards in no time flat because of CO. What drugs are yall on?

 

CO's nerf hurt melee, but it's not useless. It's not a dead mod. It flatly replaces PPP because of where it goes in the damage calc now. Only reason to use PPP over CO is if you're fighting status immune enemies like liches or if you're using a melee with no status chance to speak of and your companion also isn't inflicting status

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 minute ago, Vejova said:

We're happy because the low-skill meta gamers are being forced to adapt, and we like watching them squirm and cry.

 

Except there is nothing to adapt to. The meta has simply shifted back to crit. That sucks.

[Shinigami_Greed]

1 minute ago, Vejova said:

We're happy because the low-skill meta gamers are being forced to adapt, and we like watching them squirm and cry.

 

I'm personally enjoying watching this forum implode in on itself like a giant echo chamber of insane troll logic ideas from a discord that probably has more active members than the official forums.  It's kinda mesmerizing in that I can't take it seriously, yet still want more. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Gears hates it when people use the fact he hasn't actually used the new melee system yet as a counterargument, so I'm sure down deep he understands what you mean. 😛

Which is a one hundred percent valid argument.  This isn't like critiquing a piece of art, where you don't need to be an artist to critique it.  You damn well have to actually play a game to critique its gameplay, or in this case, a major update. 

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And buffing CO is the answer. Because right now it’s just a worse version of pressure point.

It's equal to regular Pressure Point with 1 status effect and superior to Primed Pressure Point at 2 status effects, and spreading status is extremely easy. 

Honestly my criticism of CO isn't that it's too weak, it's that it's so easy to make it better than PPP that there's not a single melee weapon in the game that I won't use it on. I have my MOA set up to put 2 procs on everything with the Cryotra, and then as long as I'm using a stance that has a guaranteed proc (be it Lifted or an IPS proc), then CO is giving me a better damage bonus than PPP would, and this happens without any additional input on my part. I can also throw in a couple taps from my Staticor to give me 1-3 more procs, increasing CO's power over PPP even more. I've been using CO even on melees with awful status chance for probably about 4 months for pretty much this reason. 

So why, then, if I'm using Condition Overload on everything, would buffing it bridge the crit/status gap? Because unless they change it in a way that makes it less usable by weapons with bad status chance, then a buff to CO would be just as much of a buff to crit weapons as it would be to status weapons, which defeats the purpose of buffing CO in the first place. 

Buffing CO won't fix build diversity. It would just completely solidify its status (heh) as a mandatory mod on top of making PPP mandatory once again while doing nothing to make status melees less overshadowed by crit. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Gurpgork

[No1NParticular31]

59 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just because CO benefitted Hybrid builds doesn’t not exclude it for benefitting status weapons. It made them relevant and now they’re not. And I’ll spell this part out for you. That Is A Bad Thing.

When you say "them" and "they're" it is unclear if you are talking about hybrid builds or pure status builds being no longer relevant. I can't speak to hybrid builds since I have not tried it post "nerf", but if you are saying pure status builds are no longer relevant, I would have to ask at what level of content are you talking about? I can tell you for a fact that my Lesion 100% status CO build still obliterates level 125 CHG's like they aren't even there. I don't do multi-hour survival's because there is zero point or reason to, but for any reasonable content these builds not only relevant, but borderline OP.

[schilds]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

The meta has simply shifted back to crit.

Ok, clearly part of the issue here is that some people think the meta prior to update 26 wasn't crit. It was.

Yeah the mk1-bo worked fine thanks to CO, but that didn't make it meta.

Edited November 11, 2019 by schilds

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

27 minutes ago, schilds said:

k, clearly part of the issue here is that some people think the meta prior to update 26 wasn't crit. It was.

Pre U26 CO kept status weapons on par with crit weapons, hybrids were brand new way of building weps. We had real diversity [x spin to win, F that noise]Thats where im coming from. Now everything is capped in 1 form or another and weapon scaling was effectively squash because reasons. That said, Crit now scales better than status once again. So yes the meta has shifted back to crit. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by (XB1)SixGunLove

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

2 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Let me add some math to my previous post as a demonstration. All of the numbers below are based on the Lesion and my builds. Red numbers are total final damage numbers.

PRE NERF - These were the numbers before the nerf
Base damage total:    100                        
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                        
Elemental Multiplier    2.4    (four 60/60 mods)                    
Total Base damage    901                        
CO Multiplier       0           1              2             3              4             5                   6
Total Damage    901    ‭1,441.6‬    ‭2,306.6‬    ‭3,690.5    ‭5,904.8    ‬‭9,447.7    15,116.3
                            

                            
CLAIMED POST NERF - This is the math people are using to demonstrate how bad they think the nerf is.                     
Base damage total:    100 <- This number is WRONG because they buffed the base damage.
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                    
                            
CO Multiplier    0        1        2        3        4        5       6
                      265    365    465    565    665    765    865
                            
Elemental Multiplier    2.4  <- This number is WRONG because they buffed status allowing better mods.                 
Total damage    636    876    1116    1356    1596    1836    2076
                            
                            
ACTUAL POST NERF - This is the reality of the post nerf numbers              
Base damage total:    237.1  <- This is the CORRECT post buff damage number.          
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                        
                            
CO Multiplier    0          1            2            3              4            5             6
                    628.3    865.4    1102.5    1339.6    1576.7    1813.8    2050.9
                            
Elemental Multiplier    3.45    (three 60/60 mods + Primed Fever Strike)    <- This is the CORRECT post buff elemental multiplier.                
Total damage    2167.7    2985.7    3803.7    4621.7    5439.7    6257.7    7075.7

 

Notice how the damage output is actually BETTER until you reach 4 status effects and even then at the 4th the difference is negligible. At 5 Status effects the difference is noticeable and at 6 status effects the damage is about half of what it was. What this means is that unless you are fighting extremely hard mobs that are going to be alive long enough to stack 5 or 6 full status effects you are actually BETTER off under this new system.

None of the above takes into account that the Crit rate was TRIPPLED on this particular weapon or that the swing speed also seems to have increased. It also doesn't take into account that slash procs should be doing more damage due to the increased base damage. These factors should help to close the gap to some degree at the higher levels.

This is incredible, I can't believe why no one is acknowledging it or recognizing the significance of the buffs. Thank you for spreading the knowledge of math, to me, this info is basically end of discussion. If people are so upset about the numbers, they need to take a deeper dive into ALL the numbers, like this. Once again, thank you.

[(PSN)Zeita-Core]

Im sorry, but tbe question should really be; why do people feel a need to nerf every powerful weapon, mod, or piece of gear into a worthless piece of junk, just so they can say its now somehow more fair to everyone?

Im sorry but the whole premise is crap. 

Look at the title of the mod!

"Condition" "Overload"

Condition being a status or effect; and overload being a massive buildup and overflow of power.

Before, the effects of this mod, fit its name. Now?? 

Im sorry, but its not called Condition Underwhelmed.

For those of you out there saying these things are too powerful; yet claim that you still want powerful weapons and mods, but somehow again and again you complain that this mod or that weapon is unfair; and thereby show that your not able to handle that power by requesting that it be nerfed? Thats just dumb. No wonder DE takes it away.

Instead of nerfing every advantage you get into obscurity, how bout you learn to use that power, and have fun with it. This is a game remember. Your suppose to be able to enjoy the power you earn. Not just toss it away on a whim because someone that hasn't put in the same time, is whining because you have more powerful gear than they do.

Quit stepping on other peoples fun.

Edited November 11, 2019 by (PS4)Zeita-Core
Typo

[DrakeWurrum]

I don't really think it was nerfed. The formula was changed to work different and keep it from getting OP, that's all.

If y'all really want an OP melee build to actually feel happy with things, just grab your Machete Wraith and build spin2win.

Most of you crying apparently are just too stubborn to adapt to the new meta of actually using your Heavy Attack button because you don't want to have to change your builds all over again.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[schilds]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Zeita-Core said:

Im sorry but the whole premise is crap. 

Look at the title of the mod!

Ok, you don't like our logic, and you're seriously proposing that we instead go by the logic of nominative determinism, or something akin to it?

[(PSN)Zeita-Core]

Not everyone enjoys being locked into one build option. Spin to win is probably one of the most boring ways to win you can build. Sorry, but I prefer options as to how I built things. Options require different kinds of mods with different levels if power and abilities.

[DrakeWurrum]

2 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Let me add some math to my previous post as a demonstration. All of the numbers below are based on the Lesion and my builds. Red numbers are total final damage numbers.

PRE NERF - These were the numbers before the nerf
Base damage total:    100                        
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                        
Elemental Multiplier    2.4    (four 60/60 mods)                    
Total Base damage    901                        
CO Multiplier       0           1              2             3              4             5                   6
Total Damage    901    ‭1,441.6‬    ‭2,306.6‬    ‭3,690.5    ‭5,904.8    ‬‭9,447.7    15,116.3
                            

                            
CLAIMED POST NERF - This is the math people are using to demonstrate how bad they think the nerf is.                     
Base damage total:    100 <- This number is WRONG because they buffed the base damage.
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                    
                            
CO Multiplier    0        1        2        3        4        5       6
                      265    365    465    565    665    765    865
                            
Elemental Multiplier    2.4  <- This number is WRONG because they buffed status allowing better mods.                 
Total damage    636    876    1116    1356    1596    1836    2076
                            
                            
ACTUAL POST NERF - This is the reality of the post nerf numbers              
Base damage total:    237.1  <- This is the CORRECT post buff damage number.          
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                        
                            
CO Multiplier    0          1            2            3              4            5             6
                    628.3    865.4    1102.5    1339.6    1576.7    1813.8    2050.9
                            
Elemental Multiplier    3.45    (three 60/60 mods + Primed Fever Strike)    <- This is the CORRECT post buff elemental multiplier.                
Total damage    2167.7    2985.7    3803.7    4621.7    5439.7    6257.7    7075.7

 

Notice how the damage output is actually BETTER until you reach 4 status effects and even then at the 4th the difference is negligible. At 5 Status effects the difference is noticeable and at 6 status effects the damage is about half of what it was. What this means is that unless you are fighting extremely hard mobs that are going to be alive long enough to stack 5 or 6 full status effects you are actually BETTER off under this new system.

None of the above takes into account that the Crit rate was TRIPPLED on this particular weapon or that the swing speed also seems to have increased. It also doesn't take into account that slash procs should be doing more damage due to the increased base damage. These factors should help to close the gap to some degree at the higher levels.

More people need to be like you and recognize that the *BASE DAMAGE OF ALL WEAPONS WAS BUFFED*

A lot of people are crying about specific mod changes, but they're ignoring how the entire melee system has been improved.

Don't forget to add in the fact that stances across the board were updated. Certain stances will have forced Slash procs, or force a Lift or knockdown on an enemy, or simply extra damage on a specific hit, and it can result in some surprisingly powerful hits. Not to mention Heavy Attack is ridiculously hard-hitting even without reaching 12x.

[(PSN)Zeita-Core]

1 minute ago, schilds said:

Ok, you don't like our logic, and you're seriously proposing that we instead go by the logic of nominative determinism, or something akin to it?

Using big words like nominative determinism to try and appear like your point is somehow more valid?  😯

[schilds]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Zeita-Core said:

Using big words like nominative determinism to try and appear like your point is somehow more valid?  😯

I use big words because I have a sense of humour.

 

Btw, out of curiousity, what do you think my point was?

Edited November 11, 2019 by schilds

[(PSN)Zeita-Core]

Ah.. Glad we cleared that up.😏😂                                                                              You had a point?  My bad.  Must have been a bit taken back by the overbearing wordage. Guess I missed it.😏

Edited November 11, 2019 by (PS4)Zeita-Core
Change in previous reply.

[thurmack]

Some people are sad because they were given something shiny, and it has been replaced with something less shiny. They feel this is unfair, because they were used to having that shiny thing and also because they made decisions and invested resources based on the idea that they had a very shiny thing.

Other people are happy because the shiny thing was so shiny that they couldn't see anything else, and now it isn't quite so bright. Still very shiny, but not so shiny that they can't see and play with other shiny things.

Fundamentally the change was good, but it makes sense for people to mourn. Same goes for Catchmoon - I loved that thing, but they were right about it being too strong. It would have been better if they didn't realise the overpowered version at all, but it's still better that they removed it.

[schilds]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Zeita-Core said:

You had a point?

If there was one, it was probably some kind of reflection on the absurdity of this argument :-P.

[(PSN)Zeita-Core]

Why does one assume others need people to make there choices of how they find something fun to play, negated and instead have another choice made for them? Shiny or dull.. Makes little difference. People shouldnt try and force others to play their way to the exclusion of the way the other finds fun.

[(PSN)Zeita-Core]

2 minutes ago, schilds said:

If there was one, it was probably some kind of reflection on the absurdity of this argument :-P.

Ah. Well can't say I disagree. It is absurd that others would make this argument necessary by nerfing everything useful in sight.

[DeMonkey]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Zeita-Core said:

Using big words like nominative determinism to try and appear like your point is somehow more valid?  😯

The word you're grasping for is bombast, just FYI.

Or, it would be if they were being bombastic, however there is clear meaning to what they're saying. Dictating the balance of a mod by the fluff name it's got is... not even logic, it's just a big brain fart.

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb DrakeWurrum:

More people need to be like you and recognize that the *BASE DAMAGE OF ALL WEAPONS WAS BUFFED*

A lot of people are crying about specific mod changes, but they're ignoring how the entire melee system has been improved.

Don't forget to add in the fact that stances across the board were updated. Certain stances will have forced Slash procs, or force a Lift or knockdown on an enemy, or simply extra damage on a specific hit, and it can result in some surprisingly powerful hits. Not to mention Heavy Attack is ridiculously hard-hitting even without reaching 12x.

You know, the way how BR and CO are working has changed in a bad way. Not saying that either mod was balanced before, especially CO, but neither mod was rendering other mods useless. You can change the base numbers as you like, it won't change the fact that these mods work in a way, worse than before.

Right now there is now scenario in which you'd want to use any of the +CC mods (including rivens) and PPP is just really worth it's slot and cost as long as you don't have to hit things at least a second time.

[DrakeWurrum]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Zeita-Core said:

Using big words like nominative determinism to try and appear like your point is somehow more valid?  😯

I find it funny when people are so put off by big words that they feel insulted and just lash out in anger, instead.

Some people use big words. Don't take it so personal.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)de_sch0sch said:

You know, the way how BR and CO are working has changed in a bad way. Not saying that either mod was balanced before, especially CO, but neither mod was rendering other mods useless. You can change the base numbers as you like, it won't change the fact that these mods work in a way, worse than before.

Right now there is now scenario in which you'd want to use any of the +CC mods (including rivens) and PPP is just really worth it's slot and cost as long as you don't have to hit things at least a second time.

Aaaand I strongly disagree.

It's already been explained why you're wrong, including in what I quoted in my post, which you quoted.

Also, nobody was "changing base numbers"

The base numbers of mods were buffed. Base damage, base crit, base status, base speed. Mods were tweaked with this in mind. We gained the Heavy Attack.

It's simply a fact that this new system is better. My melee is killing enemies better than ever before, because I'm USING the new system, while the rest of you are here on the forums crying about losing your favorite OP build.

Edited November 11, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[HellMel]

 

1 minute ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I find it funny when people are so put off by big words that they feel insulted and just lash out in anger, instead.

Some people use big words. Don't take it so personal.

Nominative Determinism is a joke about people gravitating towards things based on the name rather than any other actual qualities. It works with one dude going on about the mod name, it's just a joke most people aren't familiar with.

[DrakeWurrum]

1 minute ago, HellMel said:

 

Nominative Determinism is a joke about people gravitating towards things based on the name rather than any other actual qualities. It works with one dude going on about the mod name, it's just a joke most people aren't familiar with.

I know what it is. I just find it funny whenever people use "big words" the folks who don't know many big words get ridiculously offended.