I have to know. Why are so many people defending the CO nerf like it’s the greatest thing ever?

[Corvid]

4 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I find it funny when people are so put off by big words that they feel insulted and just lash out in anger, instead.

Some people use big words. Don't take it so personal.

Some people just can't handle a dose of sesquipedalian loquaciousness.

[Circle_of_Psi]

All DE needs to do now is Remove/Nerf Rivens and Nerf Spin2Win even harder.

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, Katinka said:

I don't know about anyone else but I think it's good that DE have got people thinking about not using a 'mandatory' damage mod.  It's also good that some people are still thinking it's best for their playstyle to stick with PPP.  It's a balanced choice with pros and cons to each, we have an option.

yeah. it's almost guaranteed to be an accident that we arrived here, but, it's good nonetheless, even if it's an accident and we can't expect the future to push into a direction as positive as what happened here.

 

4 hours ago, nslay said:

I know War is a horrid Impact melee, but it's so cool! Long story short, I found that CO did more damage than PPP when experimenting with level 135 Corrupted Heavy Gunners and Corrupted Bombards (not paused!). In order to use CO, though, I had slot Weeping Wounds and Rending Strike (yuck!) for it to be consistent (Rending Strike gives IPS each about ~33% chance to proc on War). I guess with PPP, I could fit something like Gladiator Might to make up for it.

Personally, I don't like having to hit enemies a lot to build combo and get the status procs up for CO. But once combo is built, red numbers and status procs are pretty common! If you're a Naramon user, this works great!

Rending Strike was just wasting your own time. if you wanted to change the IPS weighting, you'd add Buzzkill, but even then you may or may not actually bother. as you could put an overall Damage Mod of some sort there, instead.
Weeping Wounds would be plenty to cover the native Status application. but you must remember that we have Guns, and your Guns can help spread Status Effects. you might say that's a waste of your time by making you shoot before you attack, but au contraire. if you're not currently close enough to hit the Enemy you're about to hit, what else are you currently doing anyways? is it not attacking? well then you're wasting that time that you have before you get to the Enemy to apply some Status Effects. so you might as well.

so you don't have to hit an Enemy 20 times in order to deal decent Damage. you can 'warm up the Enemy' before you get to it, and your Hit Counter Mods will suffice when they are at 3, 4 Stacks. obviously you can have more, but at that point Blood Rush will just about guarantee Critting (~70-90%), and Weeping Wounds would have your Status at the same area which is good, and assuming that you'll have some Elementals, if you have atleast one Status Elemental Equipped, you'd already be at basically or exceeding 100% Status.

additionally, don't forget about Multi-Hitting attacks. so if you have basically 100% Status already, and you perform attacks with some Multi-Hits, you'll apply a few Status Effects already just right there. pair that with how you softened the Enemy up with a Gun before you got close enough to hit it, and you're basically already at the point you're looking for.
obviously there's much more to be desired in Crits, but getting it to Crit to begin with is sufficient enough. if you want more, perhaps consider using some pieces of Gladiator Set.

 

3 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Most of the people that are upset are looking at the math using some 100 base damage weapon and checking what CO did before and then comparing it to what CO would do to the same 100 base damage weapon now. The flaw in that thinking is that they buffed the base damage of most weapons so that 100 base damage weapon is no longer a 100 base damage weapon. Take the Lesion for example (since it was a 100 base damage weapon that was typically used as a top tier weapon with CO) that 100 base damage is now a 237.1 base damage.

however, a very real world average for Condition Overload before being nerfed, was ~11x Damage. Melee Weapons had their Damage increased by roughly 2-4x, across the board. Condition Overload is now looking at roughly 3x Damage in the same scenario(which is 5 Status Effects), which means that Damage is roughly 70% lower there.
but, Blood Rush got nerfed too and so Weapons are averaging more around 100-150% Crit Chance, and usually maxing out at around 200%. this is a stark contrast to that previously Blood Rush would have Melee Weapons hitting 100% within a few seconds of getting Hits, and usually maxing out (in a practical sense, since the Hit Counter took a lot more Hits) at 300-500%. easily losing atleast 60% Damage, potentially 3-4x.
and..... that's not the end of it, as the Hit Counter no longer increases your Damage natively. so whatever 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4x that the Hit Counter achieved before, well some of that was integrated but Melee Weapons did still generally lose 

so, does that ~2-4x Base Damage increase now sound like it compensates for all of the things that got nerfed?
i am not expressing an opinion on this currently, just stating changing events.

 

3 hours ago, schilds said:

I assume you can tell us what that new, restricted meta is then.

well, the Mods that get used went up in variety a bit, but also stayed the same a fair amount too. we have a few new Mods that Players will take interesting in like Quickening, Corrupt Charge, sometimes Heavy Mods - but the Mods we were already using? none of them changed except Crit Mods other than Blood Rush were essentially removed from the game as they are almost never useful now, and then Pressure Point becoming a sometimes excluded Mod.

so, Modding is still pretty restrictive then, as we still Mod for the same stuff that we did before, almost entirely. not that i entirely want it to be elsewise, but.
(and i assume the comment was made about Modding)

Edited November 11, 2019 by taiiat

[(PSN)Zeita-Core]

Just now, DrakeWurrum said:

I know what it is. I just find it funny whenever people use "big words" the folks who don't know many big words get ridiculously offended.

Wasn't offended, or oblivious to its meaning. I simply prefer to keep the conversation on a simple level that everyone can understand.

My reference to the mods title was an example. Names are used to discribe something most the time when it comes to certain objects in games. If the name doesnt fit the purpose, why give such a discriptive name? Its kinda obvious that it was meant to be a mod that was powerful. But do to people trying to control the way others play; its not what it should be now. Nerfing your advantages and others, doesnt make a better game. Just a boring one.

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb DrakeWurrum:

I find it funny when people are so put off by big words that they feel insulted and just lash out in anger, instead.

Some people use big words. Don't take it so personal.

Aaaand I strongly disagree.

It's already been explained why you're wrong, including in what I quoted in my post, which you quoted.

As I said, I'm not looking at the base values as you can change them to see the results fit. I'm looking at the system appliying to these and they've been severly guttet. Not that it wasn't needed but it was a tad to much imho. I really don't like that we got a bandaid of a flat damage buff as a compensation for a (imho bad) but definately much weaker system.

 

I dont' feel like it, but maybe, if you apply the new numbers to the "old" system and compare the results you should see what I mean. And again, not saying the old system was balanced but it at least allowed for mor diversity than the new one.

Edited November 11, 2019 by (PS4)de_sch0sch

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Zeita-Core said:

If the name doesnt fit the purpose, why give such a discriptive name?

Fluff. 

Or should we also talk about Serration and it's application to rockets and grenades or perhaps Pressure Point and it's usage on hammers?

Serrated rockets is nonsense, hammers are not precise enough to hit pressure points. 

Literally unplayable.

[DrakeWurrum]

1 minute ago, (PS4)de_sch0sch said:

if you apply the new numbers to the "old" system and compare the results you should see what I mean.

This would be a pointless endeavor. The mods were tweaked to fit with the new numbers for a whole new melee system.

I'm simply saying that people need to stop looking at these mods in a vacuum. They don't exist in one. The melee system changed from top to bottom and now there's a new meta. Weapon base numbers were adjusted, mods were adjusted, everything was adjusted. You can't claim "the new version of the mod is worse" simply because it individually, when compared directly to the old version of the mod, has lower numbers.

Because that means you're ignoring the rest of the changes completely and how it all interacts. CO is still very effective at what it does.

[Test-995]

3 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Let me add some math to my previous post as a demonstration. All of the numbers below are based on the Lesion and my builds. Red numbers are total final damage numbers.

PRE NERF - These were the numbers before the nerf
Base damage total:    100                        
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                        
Elemental Multiplier    2.4    (four 60/60 mods)                    
Total Base damage    901                        
CO Multiplier       0           1              2             3              4             5                   6
Total Damage    901    ‭1,441.6‬    ‭2,306.6‬    ‭3,690.5    ‭5,904.8    ‬‭9,447.7    15,116.3
                            

                            
CLAIMED POST NERF - This is the math people are using to demonstrate how bad they think the nerf is.                     
Base damage total:    100 <- This number is WRONG because they buffed the base damage.
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                    
                            
CO Multiplier    0        1        2        3        4        5       6
                      265    365    465    565    665    765    865
                            
Elemental Multiplier    2.4  <- This number is WRONG because they buffed status allowing better mods.                 
Total damage    636    876    1116    1356    1596    1836    2076
                            
                            
ACTUAL POST NERF - This is the reality of the post nerf numbers              
Base damage total:    237.1  <- This is the CORRECT post buff damage number.          
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                        
                            
CO Multiplier    0          1            2            3              4            5             6
                    628.3    865.4    1102.5    1339.6    1576.7    1813.8    2050.9
                            
Elemental Multiplier    3.45    (three 60/60 mods + Primed Fever Strike)    <- This is the CORRECT post buff elemental multiplier.                
Total damage    2167.7    2985.7    3803.7    4621.7    5439.7    6257.7    7075.7

 

Notice how the damage output is actually BETTER until you reach 4 status effects and even then at the 4th the difference is negligible. At 5 Status effects the difference is noticeable and at 6 status effects the damage is about half of what it was. What this means is that unless you are fighting extremely hard mobs that are going to be alive long enough to stack 5 or 6 full status effects you are actually BETTER off under this new system.

None of the above takes into account that the Crit rate was TRIPPLED on this particular weapon or that the swing speed also seems to have increased. It also doesn't take into account that slash procs should be doing more damage due to the increased base damage. These factors should help to close the gap to some degree at the higher levels.

Hmm, why did you forgot to put combo multiplier? You should triple those per-nerf base damage because they had almost always 3x damage.

[HellMel]

If you're worried about melee damage maybe try running Gram Prime, boosting your minimum combo, running heavy attack mods + Seismic Wave and rapidly spam bunny hops and heavy slam attacks.

 

Chanting "You can't escape the one-armed scissor" will significantly boost dps.

[RX-3DR]

1 hour ago, Test-995 said:

Hmm, why did you forgot to put combo multiplier? You should triple those per-nerf base damage because they had almost always 3x damage.

Because then, you have to bring in all the other changes such as critical chance/status chance and unquantifiable stats such as heavy attacks since it ties in to combos, etc which simply would just complicate the comparison to mostly just a matter of preference.

Condition Overload changes was made together with the base damage changes and if you want to make the specific comparison, it make sense to include the base changes.

[Voltage]

7 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Except this isn’t an issue of majority vs minority. It’s newer players vs older players. People who have maximum damage output vs people that don’t. The people that don’t love the new changes because they don’t know that there is a loss in damage. The players who have definitely noticed a decrease in their melee damage output.

Account age has hardly to do with anything. Plenty of older players didn't bother with the most optimal melee builds, and many new players went right to Plague Kripath. The power delivered by Condition Overload was absurd, but since it wasn't changed for years, people accepted it. The DPS loss is hardly noticeable unless you are in a Lich mission or Sorties. I still use a slide attacking setup with Condition Overlord, Maiming Strike, etc. The Range changes just allowed me to use that build on a larger pool of weapons.

I'm in the 1% because I have a high quality Riven collection and invested at-least 30,000 Platinum into Melee Riven Mods. Most people would just go "well that's your fault". I don't agree with that exactly because of how long the melee system was accepted and left the way it was. If DE really didn't like Maiming Strike, Condition Overload, or Blood Rush, they should have just done what they did to Limbo's scaling damage after the rework (quickly nerfing it).

I don't like the melee changes one bit, and I feel that since the Range changes, your most important stat on your weapon is now just your Riven disposition. I play for efficiency and I enjoy being powerful. Now in order to reach that, I am using only very high disposition weapons. There is no point in me running Guandao with a Riven Mod when it has abysmal status chance and my Machete Wraith gets more range....

Edited November 11, 2019 by Voltage

[Test-995]

55 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Because then, you have to bring in all the other changes such as critical chance/status chance and unquantifiable stats such as heavy attacks since it ties in to combos, etc which simply would just complicate the comparison to mostly just a matter of preference.

Condition Overload changes was made together with the base damage changes and if you want to make the specific comparison, it make sense to include the base changes.

And base damage is tied to combo mechanics, because bonus for heavy attacks is basically nonexistent in normal melee.

[RX-3DR]

40 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

And base damage is tied to combo mechanics, because bonus for heavy attacks is basically nonexistent in normal melee.

The thread's about Condition Overload, not the entirety of melee. Whether or not the combo system was changed, the point of the thread would still be there in complaining about CO. Combos and heavy attacks are 2 steps away from Condition Overload while base damage is one step before.

[Teridax68]

So full disclaimer, I don't have the biggest stake in this, as I'm not that invested in the modding changes, but my take on CO is the following:

• PPP is a mandatory base damage mod, and all mandatory base damage mods are notoriously overpowered. If that is the standard we are setting for CO, then it is no surprise it would fail to meet expectations, especially given its previous ridiculous state.
• We're fixating way too much on a single mod here: are status melee weapons not strong enough? Because if so, there are many more ways of buffing them that do not rely exclusively on a single mod that takes a fair amount of RNG grinding to obtain. In the worst case scenario where CO is truly unusably poor, that may not be great, but certainly not so horrible as to spawn multiple threads' worth of complaints, as most of our mods are unfortunately too weak to be worth considering.
• CO got nerfed because it was in a ridiculous state prior to the changes, allowing melee weapons to deal exponentially more damage. There was no way it was going to stay at the same level of power, and even if it did, that would not be good for balance, as it would make the strength of status builds revolve almost exclusively around a single mod.

While I usually tend to side with critics on principle, simply because there is so much about this game that could be improved, the drama around CO is one of the instances of criticism I feel is actually detrimental overall, because I think it reveals quite a few flaws with the community's mentality here: what immediately jumps out here is that we're missing the forest for the trees, and basing far too much of our analysis of CO in a vacuum, when it was reworked/nerfed as part of a far more comprehensive update to melee. These comprehensive changes are far from perfect, and I think are absolutely deserving of criticism, but doing so based on a single mod out of context does not allow that criticism to be especially accurate.

Worse still, though, I feel is this almost warlike mentality of framing every change purely in terms of buffs versus nerfs, and never wanting to cede ground via nerfs, anywhere, no matter what: it was obvious that CO was going to get nerfed, because its power was off the scale and it was single-handedly making status builds an order of magnitude stronger. Perhaps it could be improved over its current state, but the reaction has nonetheless been disproportionate relative to all the other cool mods that never rose to viability, and I don't think it's realistic to ever hope for it to return to previous levels, as its aberrant strength was precisely one of the quirks of melee DE had set to iron out. In the end, I personally don't care much for the particulars of melee mods, so long as I get to have a genuine diversity of playstyles through them: so far, that has not been achieved, because we're still at the same boring crit vs. status dichotomy where neither type of build differs greatly in practice from the other. Thus, rather than hold onto the one mod that made status builds strong, I'd much rather criticize how DE missed the perfect opportunity to generate far more build diversity, and could have used the CO nerf to make builds besides crit or status work.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Teridax68

[Test-995]

16 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

The thread's about Condition Overload, not the entirety of melee. Whether or not the combo system was changed, the point of the thread would still be there in complaining about CO. Combos and heavy attacks are 2 steps away from Condition Overload while base damage is one step before.

Combos were base multiplier for all melees and base damage buff is compensation for removal of it, heavy attack bonus is just another bonus and not same thing.

I can't understand "2 steps away" when almost every one of melees had exactly same combo multiplier and required hit count for it.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Test-995

[Skaleek]

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That’s a pretty hefty opinion from someone who hasn’t even used the mod we’re talking about.

Says the guy who's been complaining about a melee system he hasn't played. Kettle say hello to the pot.

[nslay]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

Rending Strike was just wasting your own time. if you wanted to change the IPS weighting, you'd add Buzzkill, but even then you may or may not actually bother. as you could put an overall Damage Mod of some sort there, instead.

I tried Buzzkill and also overall damage/crit damage mods (and really tried to make PPP work better!), and those builds didn't seem to work as fast against those enmies (often very obvious when trying them!). I tried a lot of different things from PPP builds to elemental builds, this one just worked faster at downing these enemies.

I know the IPS weighting is important. I also did try Primed Heavy Trauma to boost War's base damage more instead of Rending Strike (the IPS after mods multiply with CO/PPP factors?) and it was really really slow to down these enemies.

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

so you don't have to hit an Enemy 20 times in order to deal decent Damage. you can 'warm up the Enemy' before you get to it, and your Hit Counter Mods will suffice when they are at 3, 4 Stacks. obviously you can have more, but at that point Blood Rush will just about guarantee Critting (~70-90%), and Weeping Wounds would have your Status at the same area which is good, and assuming that you'll have some Elementals, if you have atleast one Status Elemental Equipped, you'd already be at basically or exceeding 100% Status.

I tried variations of builds using Heat alone and Corrosive alone with 60/60 mods, they really did not work as well. I really tried... I was surprised the CHG were not going down faster with the Corrosive, Heat... heck even threw things like Shattering Impact on there with Heat just to see. One thing with these tests playing with Heat is that, even with 12x combo and Helios holding Gladiator mods, I was always getting orange numbers (never red) and that Heat often did not proc at all. Shattering Impact also didn't seem to be working or I didn't hit the CHG or Bombards enough (no red health bars).

I kept CO, PPP and elemental builds in their own little configuration tabs and will play with them more tonight. One thing I'd like to try is Focus Energy for Electricity, the new Lifted Status and to not expend all my darn stacks when imposing that Lifted Status. But I will lose the consistent Puncture and Slash procs for CO... Also, a slashing Heavy Attack (as opposed to Heavy Attack from the air) at 12x combo basically didn't harm any of these enemies! Aside of the Lifted status, I'm not really happy with Heavy Attacks.

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

additionally, don't forget about Multi-Hitting attacks. so if you have basically 100% Status already, and you perform attacks with some Multi-Hits, you'll apply a few Status Effects already just right there. pair that with how you softened the Enemy up with a Gun before you got close enough to hit it, and you're basically already at the point you're looking for.
obviously there's much more to be desired in Crits, but getting it to Crit to begin with is sufficient enough. if you want more, perhaps consider using some pieces of Gladiator Set.

I was already doing some these things with a Helios holding the Gladiator mods with some 60/60 mods to get me some more status procs all throughout my tests.

I will play with it more tonight. I do not like gimmicky CO, Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush... but they work the best.

[IceColdHawk]

Today i learned that 165% > 120% - 1920%

Condition Overload is really useless now and not worth building since PPP exists.../s

[Jeckelmaru]

Because most players were never going for the multi-hit/multi-status/pseudo infinite damage kill style. Yes there will always be players looking for the highest stat build or the super-frame-storti-solo-build, but most players would rather find a build and playstyle they like and make it viable. The melee changes help to bring the "required mod builds" down to allow more freedom in customization. If (Sometimes gamebreaking) top damage gets nerfed so that more of the game is enjoyable than it's a net win.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

7 hours ago, schilds said:

Ok, clearly part of the issue here is that some people think the meta prior to update 26 wasn't crit. It was.

Yeah the mk1-bo worked fine thanks to CO, but that didn't make it meta.

No, the meta prior to 26 was hybrid. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

54 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Today i learned that 165% > 120% - 1920%

Condition Overload is really useless now and not worth building since PPP exists.../s

Actually that’s 0%- 1920%

[No1NParticular31]

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

however, a very real world average for Condition Overload before being nerfed, was ~11x Damage. Melee Weapons had their Damage increased by roughly 2-4x, across the board. Condition Overload is now looking at roughly 3x Damage in the same scenario(which is 5 Status Effects), which means that Damage is roughly 70% lower there.

Except that is it NOT lower across the board. It starts off higher than before and then crosses over at the 4th status applied. Yes at the top end it's quite a bit lower but that is only going to apply to content that lives long enough for you to apply 5 or 6 status effects to. Even at level 120, CHG's get destroyed so fast, I can't even see how many if any status is getting applied.

[rapt0rman]

4 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Except that is it NOT lower across the board. It starts off higher than before and then crosses over at the 4th status applied. Yes at the top end it's quite a bit lower but that is only going to apply to content that lives long enough for you to apply 5 or 6 status effects to. Even at level 120, CHG's get destroyed so fast, I can't even see how many if any status is getting applied.

The difference is that before, CO was a final damage multiplier (multiplied your modded base damage), now it's just base damage.

On a fully modded weapon 4.1x final damage is stronger than 4.6x base damage.

[No1NParticular31]

6 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Hmm, why did you forgot to put combo multiplier? You should triple those per-nerf base damage because they had almost always 3x damage.

For the same reason I didn't include Crit Chance, Crit multiplier, Status damage ticks, swing speed, Focus schools, or Frame buffs. Once you start down that rabbit hole you could find a place that makes Wonderland seems like a simple and reasonable place. Yet, ALL of those contribute to the final damage numbers. The goal of my post was not to come up with 100% complete final damage numbers but instead to demonstrate, for THIS SPECIFIC MOD, how everyone Else's "false math" was making things look worse than they were. They didn't include every possible source of additional damage so I didn't either.

Not to mention I am doubtful of your "almost always 3x damage" claim. That is almost impossible to maintain without running either Drifting Contact or Body Count (or focus schools) which usually doesn't fit into a Status build. In a hybrid or Crit build (Bloodrush instead of CO) sure. And now we are back to the first paragraph of this reply.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

13 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Except that is it NOT lower across the board. It starts off higher than before and then crosses over at the 4th status applied. Yes at the top end it's quite a bit lower but that is only going to apply to content that lives long enough for you to apply 5 or 6 status effects to. Even at level 120, CHG's get destroyed so fast, I can't even see how many if any status is getting applied.

It’s actually lower do due the fact that the way it’s calculated is completely different. It’s now additive instead of multiplicative.