DE supposedly only listening to "specific" feedback regarding Liches

[(XBOX)KamikaZSquirrel]

Sunder, I feel your passion for the game and also have felt it myself since it began. Despite my name having xbox attached to it, I played it when the founders offer was there on pc, however I had a rating of 1.9 for gaming on my laptop and on lower to lowest settings it struggled hard to keep up so I couldn't continue playing.. Since returning to it there was so much that changed that I couldn't believe it was even the same game!

It's this that I thank you and players like you for, without you all being there with continued support this game would be a distant memory now, BUT those that slam it over corporate greed type behavior I can't stand because DE and warframe never have done that but it certainly can appear that way. 

I must apologise to you and others as I have quite obviously misread the initial post, sorry for that. So I wouldn't appear like an utter moron incapable of reading I re read the topic post. 

Which brings me to De Monkey, I think my perspective isn't gross to praise effort, yes not even you Tenno on PC have Empyrean yet although you do already have the drydock released meaning you are only a few weeks away from what was shown but you can see how much more polished and better the Railjack system is compared to even Tennocon this year. It is blind praise from personal gameplay experience, but not in deliverence... That is what I meant 😃

Tying it in with the Lich system though I see the points made by Sunder and yourself so again I apologise =( 

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, (XB1)KamikaZSquirrel said:

I think my perspective isn't gross to praise effort

Not to praise effort, no. No problems with that. It's when you seem to be saying that we should praise effort rather than provide feedback that we have a problem.

Someone made a dumb analogy regarding a chef yesterday, I think I might try and adapt it.

The chef made us a starter, a starter that quite a few consider to be disappointing and inedible. Rather than storm out the restaurant we're instead attempting to explain why we dislike the starter so that we and future patrons can have a better one, however the chef has already started the main course (that they've been working on for 2ish years) and given us lip service despite asking for feedback in the first place.

This is of course disappointing, it gets even more disappointing when another customer cuts across our attempt to provide feedback with something along the lines of "stop complaining, look how hard the chef is working on your main course, you should be praising the guy" backed by a chorus of other people declaring that we're "whinging", "crying" or otherwise behaving like children.

It's completely counter productive, and staggeringly rude. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by DeMonkey

[Melanholic7]

On 2019-12-09 at 5:44 AM, (XB1)KamikaZSquirrel said:

-snip-

Alot of people here wasted alooot of money on this game. Ok? Can they continue complaining? 

and just new info for you - even players who are not using money “work” for developers and game - cause game without them would die in a second. They are very important in mmo game. 

[Steel_Rook]

10 hours ago, Emolition said:

To me dying to the lich is nothing its 1 push of the button to get back and keep going. It won't fail the mission unless some how your lich spawn 4 times in same mission. Reading some post make it seem like ppl got so big egos from never dying in the game "to easy" that now they have to use revives the perfect survival is gone.

It's a matter of principle. If I'm going to die, I want to know that it was in some way my own fault, that I made the wrong choice or failed to pass some kind of test. If I die because the game rolled some dice and decided that I should die regardless of what I do, then that's not good game design. If the game simply does not provide me with the tools necessary to succeed but still punishes me for failing, that's not good game design. I already hear you saying "But Dark Souls!" First of all, no - Dark Souls and games like it give you all the tools you need to succeed, they just make success difficult until you learn to play. Moreover, it's the theme of these games that you're an insignificant speck in a world of suffering, SO SUFFER! The entire game does its best to murder you in horrible but fair ways, but that's the point. Not so in Warframe. In Warframe, I'm an unstoppable god of death and destruction. My Lich can't even scratch the paint on my helmet, much less actually threaten me. I can kill him easily without breaking a sweat. Then the game rolls some dice and RKO OUT OF NOWHERE! I die, the Lich runs off, I get up and proceed to stomp the teeth of the rest of the enemies exactly like I have before.

My Lich killing me on a failed Requiem attempt is not a power reversal. It's a sucker punch. It's at drastic odds with the overall theme as set by all other game mechanics, it's entirely inconsequential and - worst of all - it's just dumb. That DE keep defending it and pretending not to understand the problem is frankly dishonest at this point.

[Emolition]

28 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

If I'm going to die, I want to know that it was in some way my own fault, that I made the wrong choice or failed to pass some kind of test.

So then they need to remove the radiation proc so your team can't wipe you for no matter your skill level a nuke will instant kill you. As for the dark soul part I never played that game or any smilar games for I don't like those challanges i want easy rpg games i can set on story difficulty and just walk through.  For me the lich is the best way to die in the game for I know it comming instead of all the rad proc team killing or that 1 random 1 shot out of left field.

[Mediloric]

I gotta admit OP, This is a damn good post! You really nailed all the points here and I actually like the Lich system! (Even though it's quite flawed right now, it's still potentially a good system) 

I just wish Killing and Converting was more rewarding, especially Converting. Like maybe having a option to spawn a Lich ally permanently, or maybe saving you from being killed by the enemy Lich for getting the combo wrong. Oh and being able to use powers.... that'd be nice! 

[Steel_Rook]

38 minutes ago, Emolition said:

So then they need to remove the radiation proc so your team can't wipe you for no matter your skill level a nuke will instant kill you. As for the dark soul part I never played that game or any smilar games for I don't like those challanges i want easy rpg games i can set on story difficulty and just walk through.  For me the lich is the best way to die in the game for I know it comming instead of all the rad proc team killing or that 1 random 1 shot out of left field.

OK, if you want to be pedantic, let's expand this to "If I'm going to die, I want it to be because I <OR MY TEAM MATES> made a mistake." Failing due to human error on the player side is fine - it's part of gaming. Some deaths can be cheap and yeah - it's no fun dying because your team-mates screwed up. I've killed my friends with airburst grenades in the past, I've killed them with the Jupiter exploding barrels because those DO do friendly fire damage regardless of rad procs. There's still, however, a world of difference between us failing to cooperate, screwing up and getting killed... And the game rolling some dice then deciding "You will die, you have no means to prevent it and you had no way of preparing for it. Sucks to be you." Unpreventable, unpredictable death based on a hit of the lever is not fun.

And while we're on the subject - what you're looking for in a video game is a conundrum. It sounds like you're looking for a video game that's simultaneously dirt easy and yet still kills you from time to time. Yeah, if that's what you want then I agree - bullS#&amp;&#036; random deaths are about the only way to accomplish this. You're doing well, then you randomly die for no reason. Kudos if you enjoy this, but I can't accept that as good design.

[DoomFruit]

16 hours ago, Sunder said:

That generally the feedback Steve only sees is in regards to that the Lich system is too quick and we want it to last 76 days.

I don't think I've seen that feedback anywhere. Where is he getting this from?

16 hours ago, Sunder said:

Which if you recall....DE used to spend multiple Devstreams saying, "We want to reduce the grind." 

They wanted to make our efforts feel validated and rewarded. What happened? 

What happened? The hema happened (and then this, I suppose).

 

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, Emolition said:

So then they need to remove the radiation proc so your team can't wipe you for no matter your skill level a nuke will instant kill you.

FWIW, reworking friendly fire, even self-damage, specifically to get rid of instant kills (e.g. to do base weapon / ability damage) has been suggested a fair bit in the past as well.

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

There's still, however, a world of difference between us failing to cooperate, screwing up and getting killed... And the game rolling some dice then deciding "You will die, you have no means to prevent it and you had no way of preparing for it. Sucks to be you." Unpreventable, unpredictable death based on a hit of the lever is not fun.

Just predicting the reply of "but you can choose not to stab your Lich so it is avoidable" appearing somewhere.

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

It sounds like you're looking for a video game that's simultaneously dirt easy and yet still kills you from time to time

They probably want a visual novel or something with fairly dark bad ends.

Main thing I can think of that fits that niche.

[Aldain]

10 hours ago, (XB1)KamikaZSquirrel said:

It just seems ungrateful

I'm not going to be grateful if somebody intentionally steps on my foot and then says "This is for your own good".

Nor am I going to be grateful for a system that kicks me in the shins in a cutscene after I win a fight under the assumption that it is for my own good.

Blind gratitude is not a good thing.

[mikakor]

The game rolling RNG to kill you is dumb as hell. You can't do S#&amp;&#036; about it except praying. No skill, no power check, nothing. It's a #*!%ing Russian roulette. But Worse. You simply don't have a chance to fight back. And you should. When the game kills you because "I decided so" , it's bad game design, period. A good game design was if the player could die, because he failed something he could have done better. Or have ANY MEASURES to stop this. It would be good game design if we had a word. But we don't. And we can't do S#&amp;&#036; about it. We don't have a choice. A chance. Nothing.

Ho, and special "F*ck you" when the liche kills you as Nidus while you have 100 stacks.

[IIDMOII]

They forgot to add an actual nemesis.

It's just fluff content for a weapon. There's no actual nemesis'ing happening. 

The core fundamental principal of the content was completely lost on another shallow RNG grind. 

What's the point of a nemesis if you kill them within a day and forget they even existed? That's just a regular enemy.

 

[DrakeWurrum]

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

My Lich killing me on a failed Requiem attempt is not a power reversal. It's a sucker punch. It's at drastic odds with the overall theme as set by all other game mechanics, it's entirely inconsequential and - worst of all - it's just dumb. That DE keep defending it and pretending not to understand the problem is frankly dishonest at this point.

\

Well said.

[MJ12]

12 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

It's a matter of principle. If I'm going to die, I want to know that it was in some way my own fault, that I made the wrong choice or failed to pass some kind of test. If I die because the game rolled some dice and decided that I should die regardless of what I do, then that's not good game design. If the game simply does not provide me with the tools necessary to succeed but still punishes me for failing, that's not good game design. I already hear you saying "But Dark Souls!" First of all, no - Dark Souls and games like it give you all the tools you need to succeed, they just make success difficult until you learn to play. Moreover, it's the theme of these games that you're an insignificant speck in a world of suffering, SO SUFFER! The entire game does its best to murder you in horrible but fair ways, but that's the point. Not so in Warframe. In Warframe, I'm an unstoppable god of death and destruction. My Lich can't even scratch the paint on my helmet, much less actually threaten me. I can kill him easily without breaking a sweat. Then the game rolls some dice and RKO OUT OF NOWHERE! I die, the Lich runs off, I get up and proceed to stomp the teeth of the rest of the enemies exactly like I have before.

My Lich killing me on a failed Requiem attempt is not a power reversal. It's a sucker punch. It's at drastic odds with the overall theme as set by all other game mechanics, it's entirely inconsequential and - worst of all - it's just dumb. That DE keep defending it and pretending not to understand the problem is frankly dishonest at this point.

An implementation that slightly modifies the current system to address player concerns while still keeping the "power reversal" idea might be something like this:

-Failed Requiem attempts supercharge the Lich, giving them increased resistance, firepower, and power efficiency and effectiveness. If a Lich's nemesis is downed, they can move over to the downed Warframe and execute them. Supercharged liches ignore objectives completely, because otherwise they might vaporize the objective and force a mission failure instantly, but everyone else is fair game. If you or your team somehow beat your supercharged Lich, everyone gets a free Radiant Requiem Relic, double kuva, and a bunch of extra murmurs. If you don't, you yourself get your 10 murmur consolation prize, the regular amount of kuva, and your back broken when the Lich decides to vanish to nowhere.

Sure, in practical terms this would probably be relatively meaningless-if a Lich ended up with, say, 67% extra DR, some level of health regeneration (~1% per second?), ability immunity, double damage, and super duper power spam after being Requiem supercharged it'd probably kick your butt into next week in 30 seconds flat-but the chance of winning and having some rewards for doing it will make it feel less cheap. And think of how good it'd feel if you supercharged your Lich and still won. 

[vomder]

Their selective hearing of feedback is nothing new.

[CuChulainnWD]

21 hours ago, (XB1)KamikaZSquirrel said:

It's not they're above criticism, it's certain criticism is unwarranted... This game has a lot of flaws but from what I read people are annoyed because Lich changes aren't being made further because the one major update promised since August is taking all their time... looks amazing and as I have tried programming and development of software I know it's not as easy as made out to be. So instead of being amazed or even positive it's been the opposite over a system that in the same stream straight up said it wasn't meant to even be there yet... 

I'm mostly saying that rather than continue being hung up on it and think they only pick and choose what to pay attention to we should be praising what they did show and that all that effort and time has gone into delivering on a promise made last year?? 

It just seems ungrateful and as most posts have at least 2-5 posts about how money hungry they are it just doesn't feel right to not defend it... I don't defend the game saying it's perfect but I can say it's better than nearly EVERYTHING in today's standards for a 0 cost to consumer experience 😃 and that's with it's flaws..

 

This shows how out of touch you are with the Warframe community mate. The Old Blood was promised over THREE years ago. It was asked for, constantly asked about for updates in many devstreams. Railjack is a Steve project that many support but we did not ask for. It was mentioned just over two years ago as a Sunday Stream Steve project. I as a paying supporter of DE since Trinity Prime was released, have a few dogs in this fight, and I say DE have done Flucked up big.

DE if they had half a brain in their head, would LISTEN to the community feed back regarding Old Blood, as it has vast potential and really only needs a few minor (slightly major) tweaks to live up to it potential to be an enjoyable, repeatable, semi complete update (further updates pending). They could crank it out sharpish, and while we are busy playing that, it would keep us off their backs renegading Railjack. They could polish that turd before it releases as an even buggier mess. Will DE listen and do that? Hell no.

[CuChulainnWD]

1 hour ago, MarrikBroom said:

No, but it's incredibly frustrating that they're getting more blatant about it.

It's since their claim to fame success with their massive Ad campaigns, I would stage it around the time they said they made it with a billboard pinned to Time Square. Their attitude that they have traded and banked on the good will of their community, shifted then. Now it's we want your feed back for appearances only, so Space Mom can give us Lip Service with "We are listening" and Space dad can say "No no no no I am not listening"

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, vomder said:

Their selective hearing of feedback is nothing new.

That doesn't make it acceptable though.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Being randomly 1HKO is not fun. While it's not really punishing it's a still a pain in the neck, it really feels like a bad joke for those who wanted difficulty.

[Corvenir]

I know some people got hit hard with multiple copies of the same weapon at the start, but at my start I got 4 different weapons in a row. After the patch, it turned into K. Tonkor, K. Karak, Tonkor, Karak, Tonkor , Karak, Tonkor I gave up.

The ability to pay off (1 million credits?) Kuva Liches is something that is needed, introduce a CD with it.

(A person can go run 3-4 indexes and be done with a Lich in 30minutes versus forcing yourself to do unrewarding content 1-3 hours per Lich is the quickest way to reach burn out.)

Trading is dang band-aid, when it comes to the mostly "we only accept plat trade market" while navigating trade chat with walls of "god riven shart, mud pies, pandas, and taco bell" copy and pasted every second...

(My idea to make it more rewarding for the time commitment, reward return: 2x credits coming back, 1-3k endo, 1-3k kuva, maybe new mods)

The only thing I finally got doing this content is a Ash Systems, for the smokey body ephemera I got at the beginning of the year...

 

[Sunder]

16 hours ago, IIDMOII said:

They forgot to add an actual nemesis.

It's just fluff content for a weapon. There's no actual nemesis'ing happening. 

The core fundamental principal of the content was completely lost on another shallow RNG grind. 

What's the point of a nemesis if you kill them within a day and forget they even existed? That's just a regular enemy.

 

It's like a slightly more involved mediocre boss fight. Like if the Sergeant required more steps to simply murder like we normally do. 

7 hours ago, Corvenir said:

-snip-

All the work against the current system for repeat weapons is definitely not rewarding. Nor does it feel it. 

I understand there's a grind to it all but if the gameplay aspect isn't even fun? Then people are DEFINITELY not going to want to endure it. 

[Steel_Rook]

21 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

I don't think I've seen that feedback anywhere. Where is he getting this from?

This honestly sounds like a straw man like you commonly see on the forums in an attempt to deflect from an unwinnable argument... But I'm willing to accept that people HAVE made arguments to this effect somewhere on DE's feedback spectrum. Maybe Reddit, maybe elsewhere. Even then, though, I'd argue Steve is misconstruing the point of this kind of feedback. When people ask our relationships with Liches to last longer, they aren't asking for MOAR GRIND!!! You absolutely CAN have Liches be both long-lasting and STILL comprised of a fairly short cycle. I even suggested this elsewhere in another thread. In fact, being able to kill your nemesis too quickly and easily was the the defining weakness of Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis system as well. I beheaded all of mine on our first encounter so none of them ever came back. Combo Finisher FTW.

Picture this: You use the current system to kill a Lich and get their weapon. Then, say day later a "patrol" mission pops up in Alerts. You do this mission and ZOMG! Your Lich is still alive and sporting another weapon. Getting killed put them back to level 1, but they're still pissed at you and determined to rebuild their influence. So you go kill the Lich again, you get another weapon, wait another day and that Alert pops up again. Your Lich is back. AGAIN. Now sporting a new weapon, new prosthetics and new resistances. When you're sick of the Lich, you kill them and instead of doing an Alert you just go kill another Larvling and get a new Lich, instead.

Now imagine the above system but with a Rogues Gallery of say three of Nemeses. Eventually they're going to add Corpus and Infested Nemeses, to be sure, so say you can only have a total of three of them. Any time you "kill" one, they go into hiding. As above, you can go on a patrol Alert and get a random one of your nemeses to pop up. Maybe this time it'll be the Kuva Lich, maybe next time it'll be the Zanuka Amalgam, maybe the time after that it'll be Infested Genestealer. Each time they come back, they show up with the same personality but different abilities, resistances and weapons/rewards. As before, you can either do an alert to kill one of them, or kill a Larvling/Whatever Corpus/Whatever Infested thing to spawn another one, which replaces the Nemesis from that faction.

There you go. Here's a system where a player can potentially fight their own Nemesis for 76 days non-stop WITHOUT having to grind a single items for that amount of time. There are PLENTY of ways to make Kuva Liches both more permanent and more complex. DE didn't have time to do that given how far behind schedule they are. Fine, fair enough. Delays happen. I'd be fine with being told "Hey, this is a very early stage of the Kuva Lich system, it's what we have, sit tight and we'll get back to it when time permits." Instead, DE seem to be saying "Feedback? What? I mean, I could make it suck more if that's what you want, but we decided not to do that." Scheduling is one thing. Straw men are quite another.

 

13 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Failed Requiem attempts supercharge the Lich, giving them increased resistance, firepower, and power efficiency and effectiveness. If a Lich's nemesis is downed, they can move over to the downed Warframe and execute them. Supercharged liches ignore objectives completely, because otherwise they might vaporize the objective and force a mission failure instantly, but everyone else is fair game. If you or your team somehow beat your supercharged Lich, everyone gets a free Radiant Requiem Relic, double kuva, and a bunch of extra murmurs. If you don't, you yourself get your 10 murmur consolation prize, the regular amount of kuva, and your back broken when the Lich decides to vanish to nowhere.

I don't know if I agree with your specific implementation, but I agree in spirit. Having the Lich block me, shove me off and keep fighting with a power boost on a failed Requiem sequence is not a bad idea, though there would probably need to be quite a few limiters on it. For one thing, the player CANNOT be allowed to attempt another Parazon kill, and the Lich probably can't be allowed to stick around indefinitely. Maybe have the Lich go berserk, gain a massive damage multiplet along with increased health/shields and longer range / faster activation on the grabs, but make mission objectives immune from their attacks altogether. Not just "the AI won't target the objective," but rather "the AI can't hurt the objective even with AoE splash." Make the Lich explicitly target their Nemesis. This powered-up state lasts for, let's say, 30 seconds. If the player dies in this amount of time, the Lich breaks their back and leaves. If not, the Lich loses power and just flees, ninja smoke bomb style.

This creates a decision for players. Do you want to engage the Lich in this amount of time for extra rewards and possibly have him break your back and make you humble? Or would you rather just run away and wait out his Ultra Instinct? Me personally, I play Inaros so I doubt my Lich could do much to me... But then my own weapons aren't THAT great so I might just not be able to out-DPS the timer. Regardless, though, even something this simple still offers more compelling gameplay than just jumping on my Lich's sword while STILL retaining the danger of getting my spine broken by Bain. Still a power reversal, just not as cheap of one.

Again, there are ways to address this. They may not be realistic given DE's current schedule issues, but them pretending to not hear these kinds of suggestions is... Let's go with "it doesn't inspire good faith in me."

 

11 minutes ago, Sunder said:

All the work against the current system for repeat weapons is definitely not rewarding. Nor does it feel it. I understand there's a grind to it all but if the gameplay aspect isn't even fun? Then people are DEFINITELY not going to want to endure it. 

That's been my stance on "the grind" as well. If you make it fun, engaging and entertaining to play, I'm already going to be interested in running it regardless of the rewards on offer. Sure, rewards do help us keep coming back. If, however, the content itself is boring, repetitive and uninspired with rewards being the only reason you're doing it, then we are no longer discussing a game. We are discussing a Skinner box experiment. At some point ringing the little bell gave you treats, but only randomly. Now the treats are gone, but you ring the bell partly out of habit, partly in the hope that you're just being really unlucky and the rewards will start coming again, even though deep down inside you know you're being taken advantage of. Make a good game FIRST, then worry about sustainability. It's a lot easier to hang onto people if the game you're offering them is something they will intrinsically want to play.

Rewards can't fix bad design.

[DesertEagle1280]

For those saying "But look at what they did with Empyrean/Railjack" - the problem is, they're leaving a system that is broken for the new shiny.  I understand they want to follow their plans, but leaving a toxic system and then saying "look at our new hotness" leaves a perception of "We'd rather sweep that under the rug and come back later" - what's to say issues with Empyrean won't get the same treatment?  "We love it, we hear your issues, but the systems working - here we have Duvari Paradox, ignore the issues with Empyrean and look at the NEW new hotness!".  

[Serafim_94]

2 минуты назад, DesertEagle1280 сказал:

For those saying "But look at what they did with Empyrean/Railjack" - the problem is, they're leaving a system that is broken for the new shiny.  I understand they want to follow their plans, but leaving a toxic system and then saying "look at our new hotness" leaves a perception of "We'd rather sweep that under the rug and come back later" - what's to say issues with Empyrean won't get the same treatment?  "We love it, we hear your issues, but the systems working - here we have Duvari Paradox, ignore the issues with Empyrean and look at the NEW new hotness!".  

If certain Youtubers didn't *@##&#036; all the time about "no content", maybe DE wouldn't have to release half-finished stuff and abandon it rushing to the next shiny thing.