Empyrean: The journey so far.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Locking a quest behind coop experience, even if its temporary, is kind of a shít move. Yes, you can clear the chart solo, but it isnt a fun task, let me tell you. RNG stats on loot is cancerous beyond belief, but it's quite obvious why you keep adding more RNG in the game. This has nothing to do with allowing players to have unique gear, but to encourage stat grinding until you get that fabled BiS item. One of warframe's strengths was that it didn't succumb to exploiting the players desire to minmax, and aside from rivens, which are constantly in danger of being nerfed(a good thing), you never did. And now, within two months, you added kuva weapons and railjack parts. Fool me once...

If you want challenging content, you might want to reconsider pumping out tankier enemies with damage that can 2 shot most frames. That's not challenge, that's a gear check filter. In that regard it's no different than the rest of warframe. You grind until you get the meta gear, to grind to get the meta gear.

I had a bit of fun with empyrean so far, but not in the way you might think. It's what archwing should have been ages ago. Minus the RNG loot and creation of yet another pocket economy to invalidate people's stockpiles, and releasing the quest before the command intrinsic was released, and if you manage to park your railjack out of the way of the battle, the open space battles in your amesha are neat and fun. Just sad that this fun is buried under layers of 'if's'.

[SnowWarFr]

1 hour ago, PlayerOO1 said:

RNG is how most games do endgame. THe gigantic issue with warframe for a long time was that vets with stockpiles of resources just went "I FINISHED ALL THE CONTENT IN A WEEK DE WHY THE CONTENT DROUGHT REEEE" and somehow expected both beloved cinematic quests and addons like second dream along with the oldy monthly weapon updates and operations (the weapons btw are now all considered the same boring trash so that tells you how good those were)

RNG works as an endgame, it just needs proper balancing. No one complains about RNG in WoW or D2 or any of those games people say do have an endgame

What i wont defend in the slightest is the balancing, QoL or bugginess of this update tho

Oh yeah, you right.

[PookieNumnums]

To be completely honest, this speech sounds like political press confrence paitning things in a different light than is actually being shined. 

The lack of mission variety, the overall weakness of archwing gear, the fact that you can spend 50 p to repair an mk3 equpiment with drone and next run get something twice as good. Also that the only real reward here is the railjack itself.. and from my conversations with others that doesnt quite qualify. 

I hope to see universal loot across the entire star chart. 

[SnowWarFr]

1 hour ago, xZephyrosx said:

The drop change for a Reactor etc etc at the end of mission is a big joke. The drop table is cluttered with relics now and i never see a MK3 Reactor except from the zekti one drop .. Did almost 40 Railjacks missions. I understand the stats are RNG, but that doesn't mean that we should never get a drop ... 

 

Veil/Ruse War Field (Skirmish)
400 Dirac	Uncommon (20.00%)
1000 Dirac	Uncommon (10.00%)
3X Riven Sliver	Rare (5.00%)
Forma Blueprint	Rare (2.50%)
Lavan Engines Mk Iii	Rare (2.00%)
Lavan Reactor Mk Iii	Rare (2.00%)
Lavan Shield Array Mk Iii	Rare (2.00%)
Vidar Engines Mk Iii	Rare (2.00%)
Vidar Reactor Mk Iii	Rare (2.00%)
Vidar Shield Array Mk Iii	Rare (2.00%)
Neo T2 Relic	Rare (7.22%)
Neo A3 Relic	Rare (7.22%)
Neo Z5 Relic	Rare (7.22%)
Neo M2 Relic	Rare (7.22%)
Neo I1 Relic	Rare (7.22%)
Neo R3 Relic	Rare (7.22%)
Neo G2 Relic	Rare (7.21%)

Let us at least drop something worth using ... 

I don't know, man. Harrow and Ivara are much worse than those.

[Atacam]

Don't get rid of my Cryotic!  It was nice to get it from somewhere new!

[Skaleek]

Are we ever going to be able to increase our wreckage slots? I'm already having a tough time managing it and railjack has only been out a week.

[Irhyo]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The Wreckage found in Railjack missions are meant to create ships that feel distinctly your own, and to give you goals in-mission towards finding ways to improve your ship even more.

Well hold my Zetki item stockpile because that's the only kind of stuff that seems to drop. Sure you get a Vidar or Lavan here and there but 95% of  the time, it's Zetki every time. Trying to get a good, let's say, reactor, Is madness. 2% off mission rewards.

[Aurora3500]

Thank you for sharing information about Railjack and plans going forward.

I wanted to say myself and some others actually love having Cyrotic as a potential end of mission reward from Railjack missions. There's enough given that is equivalent to 5-7 rounds of Excavators in an Excavator mission. I would love if Cryotic rewards are kept in Railjack missions. They are some of the best rewards obtainable from Railjack.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

1 hour ago, PlayerOO1 said:

RNG is how most games do endgame.

Just because it's a staple doesn't mean it's player friendly or that there isn't anything better to do. Gear grind as endgame is a cheapskate way that has become industry standard, and up until rivens(which we all thought was going to be an isolated misstep) DE was trying to be better than that. Running a piece of content for ages to get +2 on your stats is the definition of lazy gameplay, much less endgame, and I hate seeing this cancer spread in Warframe because they just don't seem to want to risk anything anymore in terms of game design.

[Kahrain]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

(from removing botched Credit bundles and soon Cryotic).

I do not want to see Cryotic removed from the rewards. Instead, I'd like to see it's use (and other rewards) expanded into more Railjack use, like weapon repairs, or ordinance restocking.

Cryotic is a common requirement in building 'icy' Frame weapons, so why not expand that mentality to weapons? A Cryophon turret could use the resource as a repair requirement. The Apoc could use Ferrite, the Vulcar could use Rubedo. These are just examples using the current rewards in a more meaningful way.

In the future, I could also envision a changing requirement for restocking payloads based on element types. Say you added a new type of cold missle. Instead of the default Copernic/Cubic Diode, it would require Cryotic/Cubic Diode. (I can't recall the exact mats to make missiles, this is just off the top of my head.)

[Kahrain]

Oops. double post.

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We took a tried and true model: use resources to build your gear. We added randomness to the Components and Armaments received as Wreckage in-mission that was not properly communicated, which the in-game tools are now showing before you invest (i.e your Armaments now show the Random Stat on the screen before you Repair). There is a constant struggle between making sure players feel like there is always a worthwhile reward to seek out, versus the ‘done and moved on’ mentality. This is why we did not include any Mastery to these Components / Armaments, and instead put Mastery on the reliable progression of Intrinsics. Players who want to participate in the replay for different stats can - but it is in no way mandatory for any progress.

I'd like to stress that the reason why the RNG stats on those items weren't received well wasn't due to poor communication, but because they are precisely a departure from the loot model Warframe had followed thus far, in a way that cheapens the items we obtain. The many threads that pointed this out did not only point out the surprise factor, but also had players express disappointment that the next item they'd obtain would not only be different from another of the same type, but could in fact be even worse than what they have now. Players have also expressed essentially the same criticism with Kuva Weapons and their random amounts of bonus damage, and even Riven mods before then, particularly as those systems blend the worst of both worlds by combining the grindiness of regular loot with the unreliability of RNG stats.

I get that the devs have set their minds on this new direction for loot as a manner of generating replay value, but I still want to urge DE to reconsider, as this direction has already significantly worried quite a few players, judging by the feedback given. Really, the problem with the "done and moved on" mentality isn't that there isn't always a better version of the same item out there, but that the game does a terrible job of making us reexplore older content, and reuse older items. Even with this new setup, once players have completed the Railjack missions and associated weapons/quests/MR progression/etc., there's going to be no reason to return until the next content update, even with Diablo 3-style loot in place. Had Railjack been incorporated properly into the rest of Warframe, however, rather than rushed out as yet another temporary endgame activity, it would've generated significantly more long-term replay value even without the many grinding and busywork systems put into place. I still hope that DE will reexamine their recent content releases and properly integrate them into the game, as Kuva Liches and Railjack I think were perfectly positioned to tie much of the game together, but are both falling short due to being added as insular offshoots from the core experience, which players will be able to ignore only a little later down the line.

[kyori]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Public Matchmaking missions

I come from Asia region, and sometimes I play at hours that most people in Asia is sleeping. So I change the region to either NA or Europe. The problem I faced is most of the nodes (mainly railjack's) are as empty as they are in Asia region, which is quite unbelievable because there can't be that few people playing in NA or Europe when 1 is in the afternoon and 1 is at early night, right?

So when I can't find a squad, I was prompted to use my own railjack for the mission. So I used mine... then the next problem is: not sure is it because of the obvious ping differences in different region but I usually don't get people to join me (for normal starchart missions still ok), worse is there is no solo play for railjack at this moment.

All in all, I think public matchmaking need to be looked at between different regions too, instead of just within a single region (which I believe that's what your data told you).

[Vox_Preliator]

Wait, people want the Cryotic reward removed?

Damn.  No really, that... really sucks.  Please don't.  I was wrong when I wanted to be able to hold melee to perform Heavy Attacks, but I'm certain I absolutely do not want Cryotic caches to go away.

This is the first time I feel like I'm getting a reasonable amount of Cryotic without playing Excavation, the most boring gamemode in the entire game and has typically bugged out at a higher rate than any other mode, Railjack included.  Bounties give a pitiful amount at unreliably low rates, while I have never enjoyed Excavation even when it happens to work properly.  And I have more Relics than I know what to do with, so any Excavation farming is pretty much solely Cryotic farming.  With Railjack, I'm progressing in like six different areas at once and the gameplay itself is incalculably more enjoyable.

Ugh.  I'm still looking at 50k Cryotic to farm for Knux research and the Sibear, plus all the extra bits when it's included in other blueprints.  I was finally feeling optimistic about ever actually finishing those.  Reading the patchnotes about removing Rare resources from on-foot sections was disappointing, but hearing that Cryotic was removed has actually made me sad and want to take a break.

[Asdryu]

A change in titaniums? Should I wait to finally be able to use them to craft an MKIII piece?

[Gilational]

There desperately needs to be a rework to the ways you can lose in railjack. Currently, with the only way to die being to let a timer run out ignoring what's making you lose, all the challenge is in the grind and not the missions itself. This may take some time, but balancing the gamemode around actual health (one idea being damage over time breaches being the main source of damage) would make the gamemode not a cheese fest. To continue on with the amount of exploiting you can do around the game mechanics, here's my team's engineer gameplay loop.

 

Wait for major hull breaches at the 100 HP health gate and ignore everything else --- Wait for major hull breach timer to go to 30 seconds --- fix minor breach to bring health above 100 --- go under 100 HP health gate to have major breach timer reset --- fix minors and keep waiting, doing the same thing until they're all gone --- when all minors are gone, fix major.

 

Half the time playing the engineer is just waiting instead of actively fixing stuff, this needs to change.

[TheFryingFrenchman]

I can't wait to see some of this stuff in action! Thank you guys for (mostly) listening to feedback!

[VEAST_ARK]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

We added randomness to the Components and Armaments received as Wreckage in-mission that was not properly communicated, which the in-game tools are now showing before you invest (i.e your Armaments now show the Random Stat on the screen before you Repair). There is a constant struggle between making sure players feel like there is always a worthwhile reward to seek out, versus the ‘done and moved on’ mentality. This is why we did not include any Mastery to these Components / Armaments, and instead put Mastery on the reliable progression of Intrinsics. Players who want to participate in the replay for different stats can - but it is in no way mandatory for any progress.

So you're doubling down on the RNG-stats. It was bad with Rivens, worse with Liches and is now atrocious with Railjack.

There are other ways to keep players engaged with content outside of RNG.
Even if you insist on keeping the RNG in the game there are ways to mitigate the bad effects RNG has on rewards for players (easy example: keep stats random but add a way for us to improve those towards the maximum possible).

[Synataph]

It's refreshing to hear you guys keeping up the Hotfixes and more changes to come. Keep it up. We all lift together.

Also in the Veil Proxima, Crewship shoot these Aura fields that fully regenerate Fighters Health. I cannot damage them enough because they completely regenerate all the damage they took. It's really frustrating to fight them because of it, but I know ya'll can do it, and I'm patient enough to wait for more Hotfixes. 

Again, Cheers to you Rebb and the rest of DE. We all lift together.

[mikakor]

the update's good, but again, still nothing concrete about how the missions are simply dommed to fail if the pustrels are missing. the revolite needs to be infinite. that's a core mechanic of the game, which you completely depends on, to survive, and RNG only decide if you do win or not.

Second, this god forsaken "refine" system. get rid of it, please...

[Coldstreme]

44 minutes ago, SnowWarFr said:

I don't know, man. Harrow and Ivara are much worse than those.

harrow missions dont take 30-40 mins per run for 2% chance

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I've been having a lot of fun with this patch apart from the chance of getting non zekti ship components being so damn rare, I've done a crazy amount of veil proxima missions and they're just too damn rare. Please expand where they drop, or raise the chances (relative to the other drops)

 

they're like 12% combined now? with 2% of getting BIS reactor? and you have to deal with RNG avionics & flux after hitting 2% roll after a 30 minute mission, go grind a bunch of LONG missions again (ballpark ~50) to roll the RNG again...

 

 

Maybe an option to get the peice "Refined" to max stats at expense of even more resources

[aspeedninja]

i really like the rail jack update, one of the reasons are the challenge it is keeping you rail jack alive, extinguishing fires, fighting of bording parties, it makes teamwork necessary with i love, the place i would like to see some more changes is how rail jack merges with the rest of the game, right now it feels very disconnected form the rest, also arch wing IS BETTER but its still bad, i really love how the flying things (can remember the name) in the plains of eidelon handle it feels nice to accelerate and there is some height to the handling, something that really feels bad is how fast u fly up whil boosting 

[VEAST_ARK]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb PlayerOO1:

 No one complains about RNG in WoW or D2 or any of those games people say do have an endgame

Err, people complain constantly about that. They complain so much Blizzard completely changed the system in the upcoming patch (to something worse in my opinion, but hey ...).

In fact I haven't seen an MMO with heavy RNG-based reward systems where people don't complain. It's mostly just that people enjoy the game enough that they still remain inspite of the bad reward system. But that only holds as long as that enjoyment lasts. If that goes, people will quit very quickly.

[tennomantra]

Right on, Mom.

[Mephane]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

They start contributing to one piece of Wreckage, only to find a better piece in another mission. If they don’t finish their first Repair, they lose the resources and at best get 50% back with scrapping.

The Empyrian patch notes claim you get back all resources when scrapping a repaired wreckage component. I assume this is the final confirmation those patch notes were a lie, the 50% penalty is intended, those who fell into the trap of believing the patch notes just lost the resources they expected to get back when scrapping their first items to replace them with better ones, and that you guys either consciously accepted or were completely oblivious to the perverse incentive you created: to skip most of the loot until you get to directly jump to MK III, because investing into MK I and MK II more than absolutely necessary is a complete waste of resources and thus play time (and the optimal path is to not use your own Railjack at all, just join others, collect intrinsics dirac, resources etc and jump directly to MK III components without wasting a single resource on Sigma MK 0, MK I and MK II).

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We took a tried and true model: use resources to build your gear. We added randomness to the Components and Armaments received as Wreckage in-mission that was not properly communicated, which the in-game tools are now showing before you invest (i.e your Armaments now show the Random Stat on the screen before you Repair). There is a constant struggle between making sure players feel like there is always a worthwhile reward to seek out, versus the ‘done and moved on’ mentality. This is why we did not include any Mastery to these Components / Armaments, and instead put Mastery on the reliable progression of Intrinsics. Players who want to participate in the replay for different stats can - but it is in no way mandatory for any progress.

tl;dr: You can't have it both ways. Either repairing components and weapons is a resource investment, then RNG stats need to go. Or RNG and the hunt for better rolls is to stay, then repairing the items has to go.

First of all, the one unique thing that Warframe had over other games of its genre, is the non-RNG equipment. The ability to know that your gun is actually the best it could be, and not somewhere within some percentile of the potential maximum. The ability to hunt for a specific, hard to get thing and know you have completed the hunt, not merely one round among hundreds where most will end in disappointment.

Second, having to repair components and weapons. RNG stats and the hunt for a side grade or upgrade through a different roll does not work together with a model where you have to invest - and a huge amount at that - into being allowed to use the gear that dropped for you. In Borderlands, you find a nice new gun, you use it immediately (can even swap it in the field). In Diablo, there is some amount of investment into items but none to be able to use it in the first place, but for fine-tuning and adding a slight (non-RNG) edge on top of it.

This system here is the worst of both worlds: a huge resource investment into gear that still carries random stats.  Why would I want to spend 15000 titanium on repairing an item if at any moment a better one could drop. The upcoming ability to shift invested resources from an ongoing repair process into a new one at no loss will not help you once that repairation is concluded. If I find a nice gun today, start to repair it, come back tomorrow night, equip the now completed gun, run a mission, and immediately find a better one, I just lost half of my materials. This way, spending those hard-earned resources always is a gamble, and whether they are a long-term investment or a complete waste is at primarily the mercy of the RNG and not subject to how well the player understand the game.

You have created  a system where the only winning move is not to play - not to spend anything on repairing equipment until you can be sure, e.g. once the community has figured out the min and max rolls, the best-in-slot weapon types, in other words: the meta. Then you spend once and only once on the most meta item (including a stat roll very near the potential maximum, with neglibible chance to ever find a better one) for each slot, and that's it. In the meantime, you use the not great, not terrible sigma gear from clan research or if you want to absolutely optimize your resource usage, nothing at all, by leaving your Railjack in the dry dock with stock equipment, and flying on other people's ships until you have that gear which can finally be invested into without the fear that you are just wasting half of your resources at the mercy of RNG.

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The Wreckage found in Railjack missions are meant to create ships that feel distinctly your own, and to give you goals in-mission towards finding ways to improve your ship even more.

It's not "distinctly our own" though if we have to make do with whatever random stats we may get, the only one to truly experience that feeling is yours truly, Mr Mersenne Twister the Wicked.

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are aiming to expand this new, aggressively ambitious era of Warframe to include [...] and new rewards

To quote a most famous Senate - are you threatening me Master Jedi? The prospect of new rewards, in light of the RNG stats, the tiered MK I - III system and their combined perverse incentives turn the prospect of new rewards into something to dread. For example, who's to say you won't add an MK IV in a few months, invalidating any investment into the current Railjack equipment? Or maybe you eventually add primed Railjack weapons, oh dear.