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"I play other looter shooters and this is just how RNG works."


(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan
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No.  No it's absolutely not.

The statement and head nodding of other devs made during today's devstream that there is a large contingent of the community that is fine with the RNG of railjack parts because "This is just how looter shooters work" is not only wrong outright, but the sentiment behind it is wrong as well.

First, look at the feedback.  There's thread after thread after post after comment about how atrocious this is.  People don't like this.  Some of them may be resigned to it, but no one actually likes this.

But the main point I is the fact that no matter what way you color this, no other popular looter shooter does RNG like this.  

Diablo:  I go kill a quill rat, it drops a halberd for some reason, if I like the halberd I put it on.  Neat.
Borderlands:  I do literally anything and the game throws guns at me.  If I like them, I put them on.  Also neat.  The game will even mail me guns that I couldn't pick up if my inventory was full.
Even games that aren't all about loot, but still have loot, like the Witcher games:  Find a weapon, if you like the weapon, you put the weapon on.  If you find a blueprint for a weapon, you gather your supplies, find a smith, make it, and then immediately put it on.  Still neat.

Warframe might drop you a part, and if your tiny inventory is full they'll just trash it.  There's no inventory management so that you can see which ones you want to keep, which you want to drop, it just auto-trashes stuff.  Even if your parts aren't trashed, there's only a tiny chance it's a part you want, followed by an even smaller chance that it has good rolls on it.  Other than the abysmal lack of inventory and player agency there, we're still pretty much on par with other looter shooters.

And then you added a time gate.  Not like a 15 minute time gate.  Not an hour.  You might as well have made it a whole day, because if I find a part and start making that part today, by the time it's done and I'm playing again, it'll be tomorrow.  You put a twelve hour time gate on all the RNG drops.  That's NOT how looter shooters work.  That's the opposite of the entire spirit of the genre.  

Hear me out on this.  What made the time gating in the core game tolerable in the first place is the fact that power is guaranteed.  If I build a stug, I know that the stug is going to be trash.  If I build a Corinth, I know that the Corinth that I pull out of my foundry will be amazing.  It will function as advertised, every time.  I could make 100 Corinths and as long as I mod them all correctly, they'll all come out the same and be solid weapons.  This means that other than material farming, which is more time than RNG, the only true RNG grind for base weapons in the core game is getting mods to drop.  90% of the needed mods for any given build are plentiful, and only a handful of them, like Condition Overload, have actual RNG grind behind them.  Even with relics, you can amass relics so quickly that as long as you're spamming fissures, the part you need will drop at some point and that part will always be the same once you build it.  This is vastly different from so many other games and is one of the only reasons people get used to the hefty time gates, whether they realize it or not.

Taking the RNG stats drop system from other games does not work with the systems you already have in place.  Heavy RNG stats and drops work with other looter shooter games because those games are dumping truckloads of said items on you and you can use them instantly.  Here's your +2 halberd, don't ask where the quill rat was hiding it, enjoy.  Diablo would have straight up never gotten off the ground if you had to build every single item you picked up before you could try it out.  If they had time-gated Borderlands 3 like this people would have had a conniption.  This is not how other looter shooters work because this flatout would not fly in any other looter shooter.  You're getting away with it solely based on the good will you generated years ago.  The only game I can think of with even a remotely similar itemization system with RNG drops and time gates is Firefall and it's dead.  

If I'm going to be frank, I feel like you put this in so you could sell repair drones.  You're over-monetizing your systems, while at the same time you're not putting out content that's generating the sort of good will needed to get away with that anymore.  You blasted liches out the door, they were poorly received and instead of fixing them, you rushed another system out the door.  

I genuinely hope you guys have a good holiday and what I'm sure is a much needed break.  But you have your work cut out for you when you get back if you genuinely want to avoid content islands and slot machines.

Point clarity:  I think the RNG is fine.  The time gates are not.

Edited by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan
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Unlike all of the other games you mentioned Warframe is free. If Borderlands had time gates then I'd be pissed too, but it doesn't because you buy the game up front to skip that kind of thing. Railjack would be a paid dlc in just about any other game in the current market, or at least have some kind of paid system in it. I don't care much for the time gates either, but I don't see it as a game killer like it would be in a different game. Instead of platinum for rushing time they could do something like credits to skip as well. For now I just wait since there are other things to do. 

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Just now, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

Unlike all of the other games you mentioned Warframe is free. If Borderlands had time gates then I'd be pissed too, but it doesn't because you buy the game up front to skip that kind of thing. Railjack would be a paid dlc in just about any other game in the current market, or at least have some kind of paid system in it. I don't care much for the time gates either, but I don't see it as a game killer like it would be in a different game. Instead of platinum for rushing time they could do something like credits to skip as well. For now I just wait since there are other things to do. 

There are plenty of other ways for them to make plat besides ridiculous time gates.

Creating problems to sell solutions is a really shady way to develop anything, including a F2P game.

Edited by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan
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To be fair, you're comparing a triple-A singleplayer "buy to play" experience to a F2P one where time-gates are exactly what benefits the devs. If not money, then it's your online time or progression pace. This is also the reason why some things are equal for both types of players - who can pay for stuff and who can't.

 

Also, the drop rates for Legendaries in BL3 make them basically worthless, because seeing the whole minimap covered in "stars" certainly doesn't feel rewarding (though BL2 took it too far in the opposite direction). But this is unrelated to any part of the message. Just a little opinion.

Edited by Thundervision
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Just now, Thundervision said:

To be fair, you're comparing a triple-A singleplayer "buy to play" experience to a F2P one where time-gates are exactly what benefits the devs. If not money, then it's your online time or progression pace. This is also the reason why some things are equal for both types of players - who can pay for stuff and who can't.

 

Also, the drop rates for Legendaries in BL3 make them basically worthless, because seeing the whole minimap covered in "stars" certainly doesn't feel rewarding (though BL2 took it too far in the opposite direction). But this is unrelated to any part of the message. Just a little opinion.

As I've already said, there's tons of ways to monetize without things like this.  Path of Exile did cosmetics and stash space the last time I played.  Time gating RNG items is trash, feels awful and flat out doesn't work well.  You find an item, start it, get a better drop, (in a future update) cancel the item you were building, start the new one with a brand new, fresh 12 hour timer, rinse and repeat however long, and you might go days without an upgrade when you could have had several stepping stone upgrades, which is how other games work.

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im cool with it man, the forums tends to be a  vocal minority. 

also, it makes a fair bit of sense, you pull a very ancient gun that is compatible with a ship that hasnt been used in centuries out of some space rubble, of course its not going to be functional when you retrieve it. it needs repairs and those repairs take time.

 

as for "hurr cost too high must buy rush repair drones", first of all: no, the cost as it is now (post hotfix) is completely fine, and you can get rush repair drones as drops. 

 

i dont know "how looter shooters work", because warframe is the only looter-shooter i play (too broke to afford the games you listed), so i cant exactly say you're wrong. but breaking the term "looter shooter" down, its a game where ya shoot stuff and get a lot of loot, in warframe, ya definitely shoot stuff, so we have that down. the problem is the "get loot" part, if every shield array you can get from enemies had the same stats, then you will end up just picking up one of each instead of having more goals to work towards because you want to get the absolute best for your railjack, the random bonusses on railjack wreckage basically makes it so that there's only a very small chance you'll run out of "new" loot to obtain, because its very unlikely you'll get perfect stats on each of your parts. so i feel like from a logical standpoint, it makes total sense to have such mechanisms in looter-shooters.

 

although i do agree that the management of your wreckage is kinda annoying to do at the moment because there's no window with all your wreckage neatly in one place like we have with weapons and warframes.

 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Point clarity:  I think the RNG is fine.  The time gates are not.

I like the time gates. I don't like the RNG. Never did. One of the first things that attracted me to WF a long time ago is the control on the RNG we had.

HAD. Seems like layers of it are the future.

 

6 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

(...) the forums tends to be a vocal minority (...)

I hate this argument so much. It can be used as a "counter" to any statement and only leads to 1v1 debates about who's wrong.

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The other thing is that these other games tend to throw lots of loot at you no matter what you're doing. You can farm for loot by doing things you enjoy, or when switching things up. In warframe you're often farming in a specific place for a specific piece of loot with nowhere else to go. That leads to a feeling of monotony very fast, especially when it's in a much lower level area than you're capable of handling. Warframe makes it a chore. While it may not start out a chore, repetition can quickly turn any activity into one.

 

One of the most amusing arguments I've seen is that "oh you must not play a lot of other games". I've played those games. I'm choosing to get *away* from those other games and their mechanics when I choose to play Warframe. I don't need those mechanics to put time (and money) into Warframe. For a variety of reasons (not just burnout), those mechanics actually discourage me from playing a game.

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Want my personal, honest reason?   I'm for this new trend as long as DE keeps pushing out enemies that keep getting spongier and spongier. 

I want the opportunity to find a better version of a gun I like that can kill something with 2500 health and 200 armor base working off this broken scaling algorithm, killing it's level 60 and even 100 version with relative ease and without needing a Warframe ability to pump up its numbers.  I do not like this version of DOOM where the zombie men eat 7-8 shotgun shells a piece.  Screw that noise.  As long as I effectively get to keep using the same shotgun and Warframe, anything that can reduce the number of shells that need to hit the floor before the void damned Kosma/Gyre/Exo Elite Lancer does is good in my book.  If I'm advised to switch to a flamethrower or Saryn, that adviser is missing the point.

And if you hate the approach because you have no self control and just can't be happy until you've gotten the perfect roll on everything?  Not my problem.  My problem involves enemies that eat far too many bullets to be engaging anymore.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer
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I honestly feel DE is beyond disconnected from the game, and they are just lucky the following this game creates blindly supports instead of hunts. DE is fortunate to have the opposite end of the spectrum as opposed to Bethesda, and they take that for granted sometimes.

In my own experience, Warframe is slowly drifting away from its core. Tenno Reinforcements are a myth of the past, and new augment mods are quite rare. Does anyone know what happened to the Acolytes? Many systems are left to rot unless they get a "2.0", but even those turn out half baked. We went from Keys to Relics, Fusion Cores to Endo, Arcanes on cosmetics to tied to the arsenal, all these amazing changes that have undoubtedly been a healthy installment. Now we get Arbitrations 2.0 with no further changes. Riven Mods keep getting band aids instead of addressing core problems, ESO is still a mess, we still don't have Trials after over a year and a half, Eidolons break all the time, the third Orb is missing over a year after Fortuna has launched, progression across multiple systems in the game (PoE/OV Syndicates to be specific) are inconsistent, time investment is hardly honored with new systems, Nightwave, and don't you forget about Kuva Liches and the Melee overhaul.

We still have useless damage types, and Maiming Strike has not been changed to actually do something healthy for Melee (just do what you did with channeling instead of making it the worst Critical Chance mod you could possibly slot or roll on a Riven).

Archwing is still a mess, and nerfing Itzal and soon Amesha doesn't and won't make Archwing more fun or enjoyable. People gravitate towards tools for the right job. If mobility is bad across all Archwings, and enemies do a lot of damage, it's almost like out of 4 Archwings, one can survive. What a revelation.

If there's anywhere DE needs to start going forward, it's to start releasing polished things in the game. Everyone makes mistakes, but pushing the envelope with an update that has caused some people like myself to crash more times in a week than an entire cumulative year of playtime is inexcusable. It's not fun when 3 out of 5 missions is a soft lock, host migration, or personal crash due to a variety of problems. It also burns when DE releases multiple hotfixes that spit in your face for spending hours grinding on release. There's a difference between slightly adjusting a drop rate and "substantially increasing common resources".

DE has also gone from high amounts of grind in general to high grind at first and easy later. RNG in this game has changed a lot fundamentally, and not for the better. I found Tower Void RNG more fun than Kuva Liches or Railjack, despite Towers being arguably more brutal to farm on repetition.

Playing a game that heavily pushes you to remain active when you are also given incentive to wait for something to be easier later really stings. Time is an irreplaceable resource, and it truly bothers me that DE will highly respect the Founders contribution to the game from 2012/2013 (which I really applaud them for), but simultaneously abuse and dishonor the time investment from people who actively play and give critical feedback on content for them for weeks, months, and sometimes years in a row. There is a clear difference between an active player and a Founder, but both should be equally honored for their contribution to the game.

I'm one of those people who play the game out of habit and religiously logs in. It's more or less my favorite pastime. I come to the Forums for the last 4 years to share to other people my experiences in the game and trying to help be that link between DE and gameplay. I'll continue pointing out my experiences with the history of the game, what I notice about the path things are on, and try and mitigate mistakes being repeated. I'm a very very very small minority of the player base, but I feel like there's something about time in Warframe which has slowly lost value. I try to not be explosive on the Forums, but this one topic is the one thing that will actually bother me about the game going forward until it's addressed. Things like a few Forma and a Legendary Core for over 200 Melee weapons worth of time and resource investment burns more than getting nothing at all.

However, just because you lead a horse to a water hole, it doesn't mean you can make them drink too.

Edited by Voltage
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1 hour ago, Voltage said:

I honestly feel DE is beyond disconnected from the game, and they are just lucky the following this game creates blindly supports instead of hunts. DE is fortunate to have the opposite end of the spectrum as opposed to Bethesda, and they take that for granted sometimes.

In my own experience, Warframe is slowly drifting away from its core. Tenno Reinforcements are a myth of the past, and new augment mods are quite rare. Does anyone know what happened to the Acolytes? Many systems are left to rot unless they get a "2.0", but even those turn out half baked. We went from Keys to Relics, Fusion Cores to Endo, Arcanes on cosmetics to tied to the arsenal, all these amazing changes that have undoubtedly been a healthy installment. Now we get Arbitrations 2.0 with no further changes. Riven Mods keep getting band aids instead of addressing core problems, ESO is still a mess, we still don't have Trials after over a year and a half, Eidolons break all the time, the third Orb is missing over a year after Fortuna has launched, progression across multiple systems in the game (PoE/OV Syndicates to be specific) are inconsistent, time investment is hardly honored with new systems, Nightwave, and don't you forget about Kuva Liches and the Melee overhaul.

We still have useless damage types, and Maiming Strike has not been changed to actually do something healthy for Melee (just do what you did with channeling instead of making it the worst Critical Chance mod you could possibly slot or roll on a Riven).

Archwing is still a mess, and nerfing Itzal and soon Amesha doesn't and won't make Archwing more fun or enjoyable. People gravitate towards tools for the right job. If mobility is bad across all Archwings, and enemies do a lot of damage, it's almost like out of 4 Archwings, one can survive. What a revelation.

If there's anywhere DE needs to start going forward, it's to start releasing polished things in the game. Everyone makes mistakes, but pushing the envelope with an update that has caused some people like myself to crash more times in a week than an entire cumulative year of playtime is inexcusable. It's not fun when 3 out of 5 missions is a soft lock, host migration, or personal crash due to a variety of problems. It also burns when DE releases multiple hotfixes that spit in your face for spending hours grinding on release. There's a difference between slightly adjusting a drop rate and "substantially increasing common resources".

Playing a game that heavily pushes you to remain active when you are also given incentive to wait for something to be easier later really stings. Time is an irreplaceable resource, and it truly bothers me that DE will highly respect the Founders contribution to the game from 2012/2013 (which I really applaud them for), but simultaneously abuse and dishonor the time investment from people who actively play and give critical feedback on content for them for weeks, months, and sometimes years in a row. There is a clear difference between an active player and a Founder, but both should be equally honored for their contribution to the game.

I'm one of those people who play the game out of habit and religiously logs in. It's more or less my favorite pastime. I come to the Forums for the last 4 years to share to other people my experiences in the game and trying to help be that link between DE and gameplay. I'll continue pointing out my experiences with the history of the game, what I notice about the path things are on, and try and mitigate mistakes being repeated. I'm a very very very small minority of the player base, but I feel like there's something about time in Warframe which has slowly lost value. I try to not be explosive on the Forums, but this one topic is the one thing that will actually bother me about the game going forward until it's addressed. Things like a few Forma and a Legendary Core for over 200 Melee weapons worth of time and resource investment burns more than getting nothing at all.

However, just because you lead a horse to a water hole, it doesn't mean you can make them drink too.

This right fin here, everything here, all of it, every single fin word. 

tenor.gif

Edited by (XB1)SixGunLove
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A question: If the other variations had stats on par with or greater than the default, "Sigma" parts when it comes to the stat they are supposed to be better at, and all the information regarding the weapon stat variations was known ahead of time, would this be a better approach?

From what I've heard, and help me if I'm wrong, the base sigma parts are good enough to take you all the way to the Veil currently. Part of the issue is that the stats that they provide can potentially be less than the sigma stuff, and secondly that with weapons, unlike with defensive elements, you can't see the randomized stats for that weapon until you unlock it. 
With this in mind, wouldn't it be just a simple matter of using whatever you could (Sigma if necessary) to get as far as possible, then deck out your ship with more and more powerful stats and items as you find them?

Maybe my approach is different than yours, but from what I understand, barring no RNG elements at all, I would think that is a better approach to using it than how it is currently, as it seems like a combination of lack of forward information for your investment (when it comes to weapons) lack of frequency with important items vs time invested (I feel it with those cores, my gosh) and the frustration of resource/time costs on top of this.

For my part, I'm more frustrated with the weapons and their lack of information on the randomized stats combined with the resource grind than anything else. I'm going back and forth between sigma and found defensive parts based on which is better for me at my current stage, so I have no issues with that, especially if I am able to go through all the content with the max sigma parts (even if its difficult). 

That being said, the way they implemented this is probably one of the most frustrating possible approaches, so I don't blame people for being mad. I just don't have as much against RNG as much as people seem to be provided it is implemented properly.

Edit: Never Mind, they made it not as straightforward as the ship parts by placing it above the stats. I feel foolish now -_-

Edited by Intotsu
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I didn't read the full post, but I get the gist of where you're coming from, and this statement on RNG stats, I absolutely agree with.

In this vein, I actually do feel Rivens were done... better. But still not quite right.

RNG loot really does matter, and is a very important aspect of a good action RPG or looter shooter. I strongly feel that RNG stats need a place in Warframe. (It's one of the "design pillars" according to Grinding Gear Games, and it's one that Warframe has lacked until Rivens happened)
Random items increase replayability and become our method of progress once levels no longer really matter. In the case of Warframe, when we have allthethings, too.

The problem is how it's handled in Railjack is very poorly done. Even Rivens are more enjoyable. You never really reach a point where you have multiple versions of a weapon that work in different, but still sometimes desirable, ways for different builds. Right now with Railjack we're just hoping to get lucky with something strictly better.
And naturally, there's the inventory problems.

The problem is that they actually didn't take RNG stats from other games. They came up with their own thing without understanding how other games actually make it work.

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The new Empyrean have a problem with limited 30 Wreckage slots and continue to allow pickups. No RNG while full. New wreckage still allows pickups but only give Dirac resource. Does not say "Full" until too late, already picked up. Cannot free up space in a middle of mission.

Other games will say "Full", not allow pickup, and lets players open up menu and free up items anytime to free up some space and allow more pick ups. Some games like Destiny have Postmaster that holds some lost items not picked up ready to grab it, very nice.

Time gate is also annoying, but since wreckage build time is 12 hours, it isn't that bad by sleeping through most of the time overnight.

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11 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

The statement and head nodding of other devs made during today's devstream

After having watched that part, I feel a need to point this out.

The devs were not making that statement. Rebecca was parroting to Steve that players seem to take one of two positions on the matter, and that's one of them, then Steve went into a long talk on the matter (explaining how mods originally were randomized!) and some of his reasoning for why he wants to toy with the idea again.

But I don't think this issue is shelved, I think it's more of a "Let's put a pin in that for now" situation. I think this is DE testing the waters for now. Steve wants to be able to push past the "I have everything, so I don't need to play" and provide what he called "evergreen rewards"

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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18 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And how did that game end up doing?

It went from something where you went around engaging in points of interest and spontaneous activities like seen in Guild Wars 2 with gear constructed across 5 tiers of power and quality based on the quality of resources you farmed up (via a method not unlike Warframe's extraction mind you) to a straight up "WoW with jetpacks" approach where you went from leveled region to leveled region doing quests ad nauseum, getting quest rewards, and eventually getting to the level cap.

It always had a troubled development history, but as far as I'm concerned, that huge game play shift from beta's open ended approach to becoming just another linear progression model at release where the endgame was mobbing onto a single big event in the highest level zone is what sealed the deal.  Moral of the story - Loot caves kill games.  It was a good game that had some sore spots for many players, but I'm guessing with the way Firefall went (the way of the dodo,) those sore spots were still preferable long term to what the game would become, even if those players won't admit it.

 

A variation of the crafting/resource quality system I can see Warframe picking up, only without the whole "weapon breaks and it's gone" angle.  Unless the idea is to encourage people to take non-primes/hard to get weapons and build them ad nauseum?  But I wouldn't encourage the latter concept.  Not in Warframe, cool as it might be to have a standard Boltor that outshines the boltor prime even if for just a little while.  Will DE do any of this?  I won't say there isn't a chance in hell, and neither will they.  There was a time when they said no to open world areas, and look where we are now.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer
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14 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Taking the RNG stats drop system from other games does not work with the systems you already have in place.  Heavy RNG stats and drops work with other looter shooter games because those games are dumping truckloads of said items on you and you can use them instantly. 

It works perfectly fine for RJ though because it was designed around that system. If they implemented it elsewhere it may have been wonky and unfitting, atleast for the current loadout itemization slots we have. However, if they were to add a new item to our loadout a new system would work perfectly fine, even if we couldnt use it instantly the moment it dropped, because the system would be designed with that intention in mind.

There is really no difference between going through thousands of mats in D3 to try and get a primal ancient items and getting an armament or component you like and then grind the mats to repair it. Just as there is no difference is grinding hundreds of rare mats in PoE just in order to trade for a 6-link with the right colors and stats, except that in PoE that will take you far longer and even longer than that if you have crap luck to begin with so you cant actually push areas where the worthwhile mats drop more often.

As for your Borderlands example. Most of the loot you get from random mobs in the world are usually utter S#&$e, the weapons and other items you actually want come from very specific mobs with far too many stat combinations to ever get a perfect roll. Not to mention that game is also mostly about tid-bit rushing. Like in BL2, farming for the Bee shield you ran around killing the most trivial mobs in the Dragon Keep forest and just repeated that very small area over and over. Same deal grinding the hellfire and the shield drop from another specific area. Rush in, pull the firespiderant boss then just haul ass to the top for the spiderbanditthingy boss, kill them and then reset. I doubt that much has changed in BL3, aside from even more pointless weapon affix/suffix combos that make it even harder to get the gun variant you want.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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" Here's your +2 halberd, don't ask where the quill rat was hiding it, enjoy. "

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's EXACTLY what the bonus stats on the guns are. The wreckage guns have set stats based on the house, with an added RNG modifier. I've seen talk that the modifier can change after repairing the wreckage which if true is either a bug or something that's completely worthy of all scorn thrown at it, but have not experienced that yet myself. Repaired wreckage has thus far provided me the item it said it was. I would support a mechanism that allowed you to roll an already repaired component or gun into a new version of the same house and tier with either no- or a massively-reduced timer and cost, like 1 hour and 5-10% resource cost. This all of rewards the player for doing it, and makes a longer wait on the initial repair more cohesive, reduces the pressure on wreckage slots, all while reducing overgrind on a single item.

Having a longer repair time makes sense from ' it's a freaking 200m long spaceship, repairs are not instant ' standpoint and so I support it, but from a player standpoint it's not a good feeling to finally get something after a long grind, then have to wait another day to actually use it. For the record, 12 hour waits might as well be 24 hour waits as real life often leaves folks with only a few hours to play a day, and so it is functionally a 24 hour wait until the next available play time. DE needs to learn to account for a 2 hour play period, and adjust orbiter forge waits and wreckage repair times from a baseline 12/24 hours schedule to an 11/22 hour baseline so that when you login at the same time each day, your items are ready, no time has been 'lost' leading to "I could have been queueing something in that time!" angst and the slate is mostly clear for 2 hours play to restart the cycle. The alternative is alarmclock to forge/claim which is flat out annoying as it disrupts your real life to reduce the sense you are lacking by performing suboptimally in a video game, or feel like the game is deliberately holding you back or pushing you to wallet up. none of that is good karma. Respect your fans dedication, remain reasonable about the hurdles you set for them to get the goods they came for, including the positive emotional components. I do not say make everything instant and cheap, I'm saying your timescale adds/exacerbates a problem where you can achieve the same outcome by altering your baseline times and alleviating the player malcontent in the same stroke.

Wreckage limits are good, sorting loot is a time honoured practice.
So is mailing loot when the limit is reached, with a short expiry like a day or two so it needs to be tended or melted down automatically. Losing loot to an automatic system, and creating ' I coulda shoulda mighta had a good item, except for that darn limit! ' in your players is a turnoff, and feeds the mindset you're squeezing plat for slots out of players instead of leading them to want to hold more cool options. One breeds malcontent, the other is freely ( even eagerly ) given. There shouldn't be a design choice to be made here, as the right paradigm should be transparently self-evident.
Allowing them to sort loot after a mission ends and before a forced meltdown would also work, and if the player chooses to click past the screen it automelts new loot as current. The player chose to keep what they have.

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12 hours ago, schilds said:

One of the most amusing arguments I've seen is that "oh you must not play a lot of other games". I've played those games. I'm choosing to get *away* from those other games and their mechanics when I choose to play Warframe. I don't need those mechanics to put time (and money) into Warframe. For a variety of reasons (not just burnout), those mechanics actually discourage me from playing a game.

This is where I stand. One of the major reasons I stuck with Wraframe was exactly BECAUSE it didn't have RNG loot. But I guess Live Services are all incestuous these days. If one has a predatory monetisation system, all of them will eventually develop it. Just look at the Battle Pass. Frankly, I find it sorely disappointing to see Warframe crib system after system from other Live Services for seemingly no other reason than "It makes more money, and I can get away with it because other people are doing it." I've lived through this practice once before. In the late 2000s, that's exactly what MMOs did. They crowbarred "standard MMO mechanics" regardless of theme and circumstance, eventually all converging into being basically the same game. Anyone who lived through the 2010s great MMO collapse and saw MMO after MMO close shop, go F2P or go F2P and THEN close shop should see the writing on the wall. When games in a genre become derivative, the whole genre is in trouble. Sure, it might take a few more years - the path to a reality-inducing event is long. But I know where it leads.

I guess that's just the nature of Live Services, though. If you find a unique game, cherish it while it lasts, because eventually it's going to pull all the worst parts from all the other games in its genre.

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Closest thing I can think of is the loot from the first Division game, and the Destiny random-rolls gear (in fact, when went with fixed rolls, Destiny players went apeS#&$).

However, both games addressed it through reforging/rerolling options, and as mentioned the fact that you generally got lots of loot you didn't have to build

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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Almost everyone is missing the last point that I stuck in for clarity.  One or the other.  Time gates are fine, without RNG.  RNG is fine, without time gates.  All of the examples used show that's how it works in virtually every other game, and that it's for a reason.  DE missed that reason, either through greed in wanting to sell repair drones, or through ignorance in their design.  They want to flesh the content out with time gates and grind, but releasing X amount of content with added grind and time gates does not suddenly increase it to Y amounts of content.  It's still the same amount of butter on the toast, just spread a little thinner.

I don't even care about the repair costs.  I don't care which they pick, because I'm coming from dozens of other RNG loot games.  I have over 1400 hours in this game, I'm used to time gates.  Having both RNG stats on RNG drops AND having time gates is awful though.  Pick one and only one, because this plus the lich system fiasco IS draining players.

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