One-shot self-damage has no place in a game with this many jacks-in-the-box

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, (PS4)JayCeeV3 said:

Self damage, imho, has a place in warframe because it forces a change in playstyle and approach to old familiar maps and enemies. I for one, would look to see more weapons I can blow myself and others sky high with. 

Which would be relevant if Warframe had more than one pace. Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually defending this - I would LOVE to have an option for a "slow but heavy" Warframe, something that plays closer to a Space Marine than a Space Ninja. However, DE don't seem to consider this option at all, or any option other than "ninja wizard." As such, I don't believe they've even accounted for any gameplay approach which doesn't revolve around maximum DPS to kill high-level super-armoured Grineer and maximum mobility to speed-run every map and combat the RNG through sheer weight of repetition. In this design, self-damage weapons which require you to slow down and carefully consider positioning in return for damage which - let's face it - doesn't scale up to level 100 very well just seems out of place.

Much to my disappointment, I think it's too late in the game for Warframe to experiment with this sort of design. Not unless DE are willing to commit to a major redesign of core gameplay systems. I mean, consider that the game's by far toughest tank - Inaros - is also lanky and skinny-looking. If he's not "heavy," what really deserves to be?

[(PSN)Gorbihn]

I tend to not have an issue with them blowing up in my face. Until i do. The problem that arises with them is indeed random things happening right as you fire the weapon that causes it to explode, quite efficiently destroying everything nearby that isn't an ally that is not under the effects of Rad. It's especially annoying when you have someone who wants to always be right in front of you at all times for whatever reason. Random occurences do not allow for cohesive usage of explody things.

Also, Nullifiers make life miserable, because they can send things right back at you, and you never know which way they're gonna go, or even if they're gonna just pop up randomly in front of you.

Edited February 12, 2020 by (PS4)Gorbihn
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[GKP_light]

Le 08/02/2020 à 22:09, TheGrimCorsair a dit :

This is really a you problem, not a game problem.
The solution is for you to have a bit of self-awareness and recognize that you aren't skilled enough to use those weapons and should stick to more user-friendly weapons.

I seen a Quasars die 3 times with his kuva bramma, in 5 waive of elite sanctuary.

So if one of the best players is not good enough, the game is the problem.

Even if he was not very careful, we are not suppose the have the third of the skill of this player.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb GKP_light:

I seen a Quasars die 3 times with his kuva bramma, in 5 waive of elite sanctuary.

So if one of the best players is not good enough, the game is the problem.

What is a quasars? And how are you going to know if someone is one of the best players?

vor 14 Stunden schrieb DrivaMain:

How often you use self damage weapons and tell me how often you kill yourself with it? BE HONEST, but then again this is the internet and all of you can lie about it.

In last the month around 25% of the time. In that time I killed myself around 20 times with my new Kuva Ogris. Zero times with the tonkor. (Does it count if I was dragged into the explosion because of a skorption?)

vor 14 Stunden schrieb DrivaMain:

Will you use a self damage weapon if you can’t put cautios shot in it?

Why should I buy that mod? I lose a modslot and it reduces the max. damage by 15%. This mod is even worse than a peculiar mod.

vor 14 Stunden schrieb DrivaMain:

Will you use a self damage weapon with a squishy frame?

(Troll question?) Yes. Why should I use a different Warframe, because of a weapon? My frame decides my playstyle and my weapon just from where I'm shooting.

 

And because this "game" is so funny. Here are my questions from a "white knight" to the "black knights"

1.How often do you kill yourself with your own weapon?

2. How did you die?

3. Do you use your map? And are you using mods like enemy radar on your frame, companion?

 

@DrivaMain: Just because someone haven't the same opinion like you it doesn't mean that he/ she is a so called "white knight". Otherwise you are "white knight", because you protected DEs decision in this thread.: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1167119-de-should-stop-with-40level-weapons/?tab=comments#comment-11362122 (yes, I stalked your profile to find something fitting. )

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

How often do you kill yourself with your own weapon?

2. How did you die?

3. Do you use your map? And are you using mods like enemy radar on your frame, companion?

 

@DrivaMain: Just because someone haven't the same opinion like you it doesn't mean that he/ she is a so called "white knight". Otherwise you are "white knight", because you protected DEs decision in this thread.: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1167119-de-should-stop-with-40level-weapons/?tab=comments#comment-11362122 (yes, I stalked your profile to find something fitting. )

Alright I’ll play your game.

1. On average, I kill myself once every 2-3 games with the bramma. 

2. Usually when a teammate or companion suddenly jumps in front of me when I was shooting a self damage weapon. FYI friendly warframes are treated as solid objects  so the projectile explode on contact thus killing me.

3. I use them all the time and I even use Enemy Radar as my aura.

A bit off topic. About those level 40 weapon. Do you really need that extra 1000 mastery? MR stops being a must after you reach MR 16. Besides, with those free capacity I can fit any build without having to change my polarity every time.

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

Self damage has a place, that place is not in corridors and close quarters though. If you're doing regular missions I'd advise bringing a regular weapon and using the explosive weapon in open areas while being reasonably cautious. 

 

Right now the best way I can use blast is by using Twin Rogga with blast damage, and as far as I can tell I can't blow myself up. 

[Ham_Grenabe]

The devs could certainly do away with self-damage; I'm sure it would not be a big deal to change. But it's kinda lookin' like they're not going to do that. 

So our option remains: don't use self-damage weapons, or just own it when we blow ourselves up with a weapon because some random obstacle triggered the boom, and move on. I killed myself twice in the Sortie the other day, making the exact same mistake twice (do not attempt a grazing shot over the top of those weird crystal plants). In another sortie, a guy killed himself something like 17 or 20 times with his Bramma. 

Just burn the revives / wait for a res and walk on. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Ham_Grenabe

[Test-995]

I can't really understand why we have to "discuss" this thing again and again and again.

We don't need self damage for balance, game has so many proof of it.

[Aldain]

4 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

1.How often do you kill yourself with your own weapon?

2. How did you die?

3. Do you use your map? And are you using mods like enemy radar on your frame, companion?

1: Never, because I don't use weapons that can instagib squishy frames with blowback damage. -hugs Tiberon Prime-

2: Usually? When I'm running a low armor frame for fun/because it is needed in Sorties, otherwise I seldom die...except to those enemy hand grenades with seem to sometimes do infinity+1 damage.

3: I'm usually so on the move that I don't have time to pay attention to my minimap, I spend 90% of my mission bullet jumping in every conceivable direction with the remaining 10% being shooting/stabbing things that get in my sights, or I'm playing Excalibur and just running head-long into mobs of enemies with my Exalted Blade being a walking blender.

Like I said before, asked me to "Git Gud" I did, by realizing that using a weapon that can kill me was a stupid idea and just doing better with what I have.

There are many MANY players who don't need a self-damage weapon to clean house, and they do it with similar efficiency/effectiveness and none of the drawbacks that come with a weapon that can blow you up because a summoned specter decided to walk in front of you.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Aldain

[GKP_light]

Il y a 5 heures, ES-Flinter a dit :

What is a quasars? And how are you going to know if someone is one of the best players?

It is a clan that recruits best players of this game. 

And it the kind of player that do 6 hours arbitration.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb GKP_light:

It is a clan that recruits best players of this game.

Thanks for the info.^^

vor 9 Stunden schrieb GKP_light:

And it the kind of player that do 6 hours arbitration.

Camping in one spot and shooting on bullets sponge doesn't proof, that someone has skill. Best example is, that the guy you had seen in the Eso run can't even use an explosive weapon. (I'm able to use it. Does it make me better than him?) If you play a 6 hour endless mission it's just shows, that you can sit on one place without moving and you don't need to use the toilet for a very long time.

vor 13 Stunden schrieb DrivaMain:

Alright I’ll play your game.

You started with the questions. So it's your game. XD

vor 13 Stunden schrieb DrivaMain:

1. On average, I kill myself once every 2-3 games with the bramma. 

And I thought you would die like 2-3 times per game. Every second or third game isn't so high. Especially if you consider, that the deaths probably happends on low level mission, where you are probably not concentrated. I could bet, that if you would only play higher tier mission (Eso, Abritation, ...) you suicide rate will shrink down to less than 10%, just because you will be automatically more concentrated.

vor 13 Stunden schrieb DrivaMain:

2. Usually when a teammate or companion suddenly jumps in front of me when I was shooting a self damage weapon. FYI friendly warframes are treated as solid objects  so the projectile explode on contact thus killing me.

you know I agree, with you on this. Even I have sometimes a problem with this.

vor 13 Stunden schrieb DrivaMain:

3. I use them all the time and I even use Enemy Radar as my aura.

This questions was actually my trump card. If someone would have written, that he/ she dies every 10 seconds, because of "randomly" appering enemies, I would had just suggested, that they should use this mod.

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Aldain:

Like I said before, asked me to "Git Gud" I did, by realizing that using a weapon that can kill me was a stupid idea and just doing better with what I have.

There are many MANY players who don't need a self-damage weapon to clean house, and they do it with similar efficiency/effectiveness and none of the drawbacks that come with a weapon that can blow you up because a summoned specter decided to walk in front of you.

And because of that, I want, that explosive procs are able to shred armor by a base percent of the inflincted explosion damage. High risk (It can kill you) for high reward (kills 99% of the enemies, with one hit in a large area). Problem solved.

[ES-Flinter]

Sorry for double post.

vor 14 Stunden schrieb DrivaMain:

A bit off topic. About those level 40 weapon. Do you really need that extra 1000 mastery? MR stops being a must after you reach MR 16. Besides, with those free capacity I can fit any build without having to change my polarity every time.

Nope I don't need the 1000 extra exp from the weapon. It was just an exmaple, that you shouldn't mark someone as a "white knight", because he doesn't share your opinion.^^

[Steel_Rook]

15 hours ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

Self damage has a place, that place is not in corridors and close quarters though. If you're doing regular missions I'd advise bringing a regular weapon and using the explosive weapon in open areas while being reasonably cautious. 

Are weapons with self-damage worth this restriction, however? Yes, the Kuva Ogris deals damage across a 6 meter AoE, but that damage doesn't cause headshots so it's drastically reduced. In comparison, the Kuva Chakkhurr deals damage in a 2.7m radius, but also hits substantially harder if you do nail those headshots, to the point that I can reliably two-shot a level 100 Nox if my aim is on point. From my perspective, this is already mostly balanced on its face. The Chakkhurr is a great weapon to take down hard targets but has limited AoE capacity while the Ogriss has extensive AoE capacity but struggles to down hard targets. Except the Ogris ALSO kills me quite often when I misuse it, while the AoE on the Chakkhurr does no self-damage. And also the aforementioned level 100 Grineer - the ones I'll be fighting if I want more Kuva Weapons - are ALL hard targets not really bothered too much by AoE.

So again - large-scale AoE weapons are already balanced by lack of headshot damage, slow rate of fire (so lack of much status viability) and a weakness against hard targets. In return, they offer AoE damage which can often be matched or even exceeded by a powerful single-target weapon with decent aim, or a weapon with limited AoE like the Acceltra, the Opticor, the Chakkhurr, etc. Why do those weapons which already struggle to remain relevant ALSO need to be so situational as to often not be worth the bother in the first place? MAYBE if these weapons were of unparallelled power such a limitation might be reasonable, but they really aren't...

 

1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

And I thought you would die like 2-3 times per game. Every second or third game isn't so high. Especially if you consider, that the deaths probably happends on low level mission, where you are probably not concentrated. I could bet, that if you would only play higher tier mission (Eso, Abritation, ...) you suicide rate will shrink down to less than 10%, just because you will be automatically more concentrated.

You make a lot of unfounded assumptions here. In my experience, the opposite is the case. Low-level missions come with less threatening enemies who are less likely to crowd-control you or even show up in sufficiently dense numbers. Most of my self-damage occurs in high-level missions full of teleporting enemies, swarms of tank who are tough to kill faster than they spawn and actual threat which distracts me. And even then, the majority of my self-damage comes from team-mates and pets walking in front of me. I typically use a Moa pet because they're basically a superior sentinel, but Bird has a tendency to walk in front of me at inopportune times, or stand behind me so I back up through him. I don't actually KILL myself with my own AoE very often, but that's largely because I play Inaros nearly all of the time. Between armour and health, I can usually tank a few shots from my typical Ogris or Lenz, though that's no guarantee if I'm not careful. I often joke that the only thing that can kill me reliably in this game is my own guns.

I'd recommend trying to examine people's arguments a bit more objectively, because you're skirting dangerously close to a straight-up dishonest argument. If you want to argue in good faith, it helps to try and understand the perspective you're responding to, rather than coming at the conversation with the predetermined conclusion that it's wrong and the implied goal of discrediting it. Actually listen to what people are presenting and consider why they believe that to be true. Just because it doesn't match your personal experience or your measure of what constitutes a "problem" doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement or at least room for discussion.

 

1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

And because of that, I want, that explosive procs are able to shred armor by a base percent of the inflincted explosion damage. High risk (It can kill you) for high reward (kills 99% of the enemies, with one hit in a large area). Problem solved.

That's a patchwork solution and well outside the scope of this thread. The core implementation of Status in Warframe is flawed altogether. Adding special-case exceptions to make it work logically in isolated cases is not a solution I'd personally recommend. If you want explosive weapons with extreme damage to be viable for Status (i.e. armour stripping, i.e. corrosive damage), then Status itself needs to be made more flexible. For a majority of Status Effects, the magnitude of the effect (amount of armour shredded, amount of shields reduced, extent of slow, duration of confusion, etc.) is immutable. What this means is that fast-firing weapons will always be better than slow-firing weapons. For weapons with native multishot (i.e. shotguns), the per-pellet Status chance is back-calculated from the "at least one proc" stat displayed in the inventory via a radical function which spikes dramatically towards 100%. Because of both of these, the only weapons really worth building for Status are fast-firing shotguns which can be built for 100% status and MAYBE some particularly fast-firing rifles and pistols. About the only Status effects worth using on slow-firing weapons are the damage-dealing ones, and few of the combo damage mods actually deal any DOT.

Announcing "problem solved" with a one-sentence suggestion in this case seems highly premature. Even ignoring the fact that what you're proposing is a "balance of extremes" which is of dubious merit on its face, the challenge in what you're proposing isn't in the core idea. The devil is in the details of the specific implementation and the knock-on effect this will have on other legacy game systems.

[MirageKnight]

On 2020-02-10 at 5:05 AM, Steel_Rook said:

can we please stop with the name-calling? Insulting other people and trying to pin the same tired old labels on them does not make for a productive discussion.

Totally reasonable request and you are absolutely correct.

However, these forums are heavily populated with self-righteous, entitled children that'll attack anything they don't like or approve of in the blink of an eye. Unless the mods decide to actually bring the hammer down on that kind of toxic behavior, it's not going to stop just because someone asked for it to stop. They'll continue to be adversarial and insulting to people they don't agree with because they figure they can get away with - and sadly much of the time they do.

To you and people like you, thanks for trying to keep discussions like these civil and on point.

 

[Sloan441]

On 2020-02-08 at 4:05 PM, SordidDreams said:

 

The solution is simple and obvious: 

Don't use AoE explosive weapons in a CQC environment. 

[Gailus]

I honestly think self damage would be fine if they just removed its mod scaling. Have the gun do something like 25% (maybe less) of its unmodded base damage that's divided evenly amongst the number of projectiles fired so as to mitigate issues with multishot.

As an example, the Kuva Ogris would deal 687*.25 = 171.75 self damage.

And the same Kuva Ogris with maxed out Serration, Heavy Caliber, four elemental mods, Split Chamber, and Vigilante Armaments that gets lucky on the multishot to fire three pellets would do (687*.25)/3 = 57.25 self damage per pellet for a total of 171.75 self damage.

Cautious shot would still have a place in reducing this for squishy frames, but otherwise it should be more than manageable and give the explosive guns some added personality if the devs so desire.

[Nezha_Rose]

To those defending self damage because the weapon is AoE. 

Why warframe abilities arent treated the same?

 

What about railjack missles? Void magic?

Edited February 11, 2020 by Nezha_Rose

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Didn't even read a half. Instant Like/Applause. Because this problem exists and needs attention. And in general, low ammo aoe weapons just HAVE to be 5-10 times more powerful if they one-shot you, seriously, there is no reward. They don't kill so good, not more effective in something this game requires.

 

P.S: "[Cautious Shot]'s and [Firestorm]'s weapons list HAS to be edited. Ranges have to be much wider. Or something cool instead. Make it FUN + Effective.

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

Totally reasonable request and you are absolutely correct.

However, these forums are heavily populated with self-righteous, entitled children that'll attack anything they don't like or approve of in the blink of an eye. Unless the mods decide to actually bring the hammer down on that kind of toxic behavior, it's not going to stop just because someone asked for it to stop. They'll continue to be adversarial and insulting to people they don't agree with because they figure they can get away with - and sadly much of the time they do.

To you and people like you, thanks for trying to keep discussions like these civil and on point.

 

The problem is since it's the internet and people aren't accountable for what they say in the same way as they would be in reality they can say what they want in a reactionary toxic way. I agree these kinds of topics should be civil and handled maturely, there's no need for juvenile name calling. 

 

Spoiler

Also hello fellow Oberon.

 

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Are weapons with self-damage worth this restriction, however? Yes, the Kuva Ogris deals damage across a 6 meter AoE, but that damage doesn't cause headshots so it's drastically reduced. In comparison, the Kuva Chakkhurr deals damage in a 2.7m radius, but also hits substantially harder if you do nail those headshots, to the point that I can reliably two-shot a level 100 Nox if my aim is on point. From my perspective, this is already mostly balanced on its face. The Chakkhurr is a great weapon to take down hard targets but has limited AoE capacity while the Ogriss has extensive AoE capacity but struggles to down hard targets. Except the Ogris ALSO kills me quite often when I misuse it, while the AoE on the Chakkhurr does no self-damage. And also the aforementioned level 100 Grineer - the ones I'll be fighting if I want more Kuva Weapons - are ALL hard targets not really bothered too much by AoE.

So again - large-scale AoE weapons are already balanced by lack of headshot damage, slow rate of fire (so lack of much status viability) and a weakness against hard targets. In return, they offer AoE damage which can often be matched or even exceeded by a powerful single-target weapon with decent aim, or a weapon with limited AoE like the Acceltra, the Opticor, the Chakkhurr, etc. Why do those weapons which already struggle to remain relevant ALSO need to be so situational as to often not be worth the bother in the first place? MAYBE if these weapons were of unparallelled power such a limitation might be reasonable, but they really aren't...

 

 

That's why I'm saying the majority of missions aren't usually ones where high explosive weapons are useful, you are better off with a standard weapon most of the time yet I don't think self damage should be cut entirely since then one of the major drawbacks of aoe weapons will be gone. They have several drawbacks but take self damage away and people will only have to worry about the damage they're dealing without worrying about fragging themselves in the process. Considering how closely packed a lot of enemies end up being an explosive weapon would be excellent in those situations. An explosive weapon might not deal the critical damage or headshot multipliers of other weapons but when enemies are tightly packed you can hit one of them hard enough, and knock the others down then close and finish with melee while enemies are knocked down. 

 

I wouldn't bring an explosive weapon against armored enemies since it doesn't work well against them, but I also don't bring rapid fire weapons for that reason. Different weapons do have different uses. Other games like Battlefield where you can blow up buildings and cover an explosive weapon is very useful in that role, since they don't have that purpose in Warframe they don't feel quite as useful. I wouldn't mind a weapon that fires rifle rounds and has an explosive secondary, similar to Corinth but a rifle. I feel like something in Warframe already does that but there are too many weapons to keep track of. 

[SordidDreams]

2 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

Don't use AoE explosive weapons in a CQC environment. 

So don't use AoE explosive weapons in Warframe, then? Gotcha.

[Steel_Rook]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

That's why I'm saying the majority of missions aren't usually ones where high explosive weapons are useful, you are better off with a standard weapon most of the time yet I don't think self damage should be cut entirely since then one of the major drawbacks of aoe weapons will be gone. They have several drawbacks but take self damage away and people will only have to worry about the damage they're dealing without worrying about fragging themselves in the process. Considering how closely packed a lot of enemies end up being an explosive weapon would be excellent in those situations. An explosive weapon might not deal the critical damage or headshot multipliers of other weapons but when enemies are tightly packed you can hit one of them hard enough, and knock the others down then close and finish with melee while enemies are knocked down. 

But again - we're almost entirely discussing the drawbacks of explosive weapons. I'm not inherently opposed to drawbacks, but I'm still unclear on why these weapons merit drawbacks of their own. Even if people only had to worry about the damage they're dealing without worrying about fragging themselves, "the damage they're dealing" is already enough of a counter-balance for explosive weapons, at least in my experience. It's not just about "armoured" enemies. High-level enemies as a whole tend to make AoE weapons rapidly redundant because their EHP simply increases past the point where such slow-firing weapons with such limited ammo are really useful. Enemies don't tend to bunch up to quite the extent you suggest in my experience, but even if they did... Well, in the higher levels, I still find it easier to kill them one-by-one with a one-shot weapon than to dump rocket after rocket. If you feel their AoE is strong enough to merit all of their drawbacks, then I'd genuinely ask you to demonstrate that, because I honestly cannot see it.

And on the subject of high-level enemies: I've somewhat reversed my position on the matter of what should count as status quo. I sued to see level 40-50 enemies as being "median." Between Kuva Liches and Railjack, however, it seems like level the median has increased up to level 100. Sorties and self-imposed endurance challenges are no longer the exception, but increasingly the rule. DE are already talking about a corpus counterpart to Liches and Corpus missions for Railjack, both of which I expect to scale to level 100, as well. Increasing, that seems to be where DE wants us to play, at least in "end game." I've been forced to adapt my weapons, my Warframe choice and my playstyle of late, as well. An unfortunate side effect of this has been that AoE weapons simply lag too far behind in damage to be viable in what I have to believe is "standard content" now. That's why I cite these examples.

There's also this issue:

 

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

So don't use AoE explosive weapons in Warframe, then? Gotcha.

That's what it ends up reading like to me, as well. In general, I'm not a fan of "situational" abilities and weapons for this precise reason. When the "situation" is this rare, there ends up being very little reason to invest in those weapons, either in terms of building them up or in terms of learning to use them. This is the inevitable result of a "balance of extremes." Even if they appear fair, extreme drawbacks just end up making these weapons not worth the bother - at least for most people. Maybe in a game where everything was a balance of extremes this sort of design might work - where every weapon has some crippling drawback of its own. Warframe isn't that game, though. Pretty much everything the Ogris can do, weapons like the Acceltra, the Opticor and the Chakkhurr can do better or at least good enough for government work. We're left with a set of weapons more defined by their drawbacks - by the reasons we DON'T use them - than by anything they can do for our enjoyment, and I personally feel that's a shame.

 

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

However, these forums are heavily populated with self-righteous, entitled children that'll attack anything they don't like or approve of in the blink of an eye. Unless the mods decide to actually bring the hammer down on that kind of toxic behavior, it's not going to stop just because someone asked for it to stop. They'll continue to be adversarial and insulting to people they don't agree with because they figure they can get away with - and sadly much of the time they do.

Right, but there's not a lot we can do about that. My personal philosophy is to ignore people who've proven themselves unreasonable and move on. File a report if it's particularly egregious. Getting into a slap fight with people who clearly came looking for one just derails the thread and chases away people who might have otherwise contributed. You can never shout down disruptive people. However, it's been my experience that sidelining them keeps their impact down to a minimum. Engage with good-faith arguments, let bad-faith arguments argue with themselves. It's about all we can do.

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

4 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

But again - we're almost entirely discussing the drawbacks of explosive weapons. I'm not inherently opposed to drawbacks, but I'm still unclear on why these weapons merit drawbacks of their own. Even if people only had to worry about the damage they're dealing without worrying about fragging themselves, "the damage they're dealing" is already enough of a counter-balance for explosive weapons, at least in my experience. It's not just about "armoured" enemies. High-level enemies as a whole tend to make AoE weapons rapidly redundant because their EHP simply increases past the point where such slow-firing weapons with such limited ammo are really useful. Enemies don't tend to bunch up to quite the extent you suggest in my experience, but even if they did... Well, in the higher levels, I still find it easier to kill them one-by-one with a one-shot weapon than to dump rocket after rocket. If you feel their AoE is strong enough to merit all of their drawbacks, then I'd genuinely ask you to demonstrate that, because I honestly cannot see it.

And on the subject of high-level enemies: I've somewhat reversed my position on the matter of what should count as status quo. I sued to see level 40-50 enemies as being "median." Between Kuva Liches and Railjack, however, it seems like level the median has increased up to level 100. Sorties and self-imposed endurance challenges are no longer the exception, but increasingly the rule. DE are already talking about a corpus counterpart to Liches and Corpus missions for Railjack, both of which I expect to scale to level 100, as well. Increasing, that seems to be where DE wants us to play, at least in "end game." I've been forced to adapt my weapons, my Warframe choice and my playstyle of late, as well. An unfortunate side effect of this has been that AoE weapons simply lag too far behind in damage to be viable in what I have to believe is "standard content" now. That's why I cite these examples.

There's also this issue:

 

That's what it ends up reading like to me, as well. In general, I'm not a fan of "situational" abilities and weapons for this precise reason. When the "situation" is this rare, there ends up being very little reason to invest in those weapons, either in terms of building them up or in terms of learning to use them. This is the inevitable result of a "balance of extremes." Even if they appear fair, extreme drawbacks just end up making these weapons not worth the bother - at least for most people. Maybe in a game where everything was a balance of extremes this sort of design might work - where every weapon has some crippling drawback of its own. Warframe isn't that game, though. Pretty much everything the Ogris can do, weapons like the Acceltra, the Opticor and the Chakkhurr can do better or at least good enough for government work. We're left with a set of weapons more defined by their drawbacks - by the reasons we DON'T use them - than by anything they can do for our enjoyment, and I personally feel that's a shame.

 

Right, but there's not a lot we can do about that. My personal philosophy is to ignore people who've proven themselves unreasonable and move on. File a report if it's particularly egregious. Getting into a slap fight with people who clearly came looking for one just derails the thread and chases away people who might have otherwise contributed. You can never shout down disruptive people. However, it's been my experience that sidelining them keeps their impact down to a minimum. Engage with good-faith arguments, let bad-faith arguments argue with themselves. It's about all we can do.

I rarely bring explosive weapons for that reason, even without self damage I would still favor a high critical weapon like Tiberon at high levels and I would keep explosive weapons for fun lower level stuff where it's just a matter of blowing stuff up for the sake of it. Honestly, without self damage I could see the meta being knocking down enemies with explosive weapons then finishing them with a melee weapon. Rather than the actual damage it's the knockdown ability that would be useful on explosive weapons at that point. 

Median level depends on what you want from the game, that's something I've always liked in Warframe. If someone wants to chill they can play at level 1-30 enemies and not have to worry, if they want a challenge then level 100 enemies are available. For the longest time I kept Warframe as a game I'd play after other more frustrating multiplayer games so I had something that wouldn't piss me off. Cutting enemies down with no worry relaxes me. I like the rewards from higher levels but the mid level stuff feels more comfortable. 

Explosive weapons in most games are situational, obviously you won't be using them in close quarters fights if you have close quarters weapons available. That's why I'm more of a fan of grenade launchers attached to weapons or being the one to carry an explosive weapon instead of a different secondary in most games I play. Other games are also more open than the close range ship raids of Warframe, so they will offer more situations where an explosive weapon will actually be useful. Free roam is somewhere that I'll actually use explosives. 

And I agree with the last point exactly, the most common saying in online discussions is "don't feed the trolls." If someone stops debating a point and decides to go after the other person with name calling and insults then they aren't worth debating since they don't care about the topic but rather being insulting to the other person because they disagree with them. I love debates about different things and seeing different opinions, I don't think anyone's inherently right or wrong, and people don't need to be belittled for having different thoughts from your own. After all if we were all the same life would be rather boring. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

20 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

Don't use AoE explosive weapons in a CQC environment. 

Except the majority of Warframes core gameplay is considered "CQC". That said any of those "Open areas" were you would imagine AoE explosives weapons  to shine are relatively pointless because of the S#&$ty and dated rendering. 

  This isn't COD, Rainbow Six, Battlefield or ARMA. This is 8 year old ninja horder sci fi space shooter where we are wizards that magically pick ammo, health and "energy" up through our feet, block bullets with swords, can fall from hundreds of feet with no damage and slow-mo glide through the air. Do not bring real life tactics anywhere near this thread. It sounds stupid and ultimately won't work. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by (XB1)MandlorPrime

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

I like self damage in exchange for raw power.