Kuva Lich system is misery

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

6 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

to be fair, they only have one planet at the start. you can just ignore them until you wake up one day and decide you're willing to do the farm.

always take a gun with decent-ish range when looking for a new Larvling and use that to kill them. NEVER melee, because that's when accidents happen. even a shotgun will work, just don't get within melee range until the Larvling is down and look before you stab.

Laughs in Nezha and Nikana prime

[warmastercain]

I despise farming lich's I have all 16 weapons on xbox one and I utterly despise how long it takes to unlock all 3 requiems for such a big group of useless weapons only 5 are actually good 

[Tinklzs]

7 hours ago, disco_inferno6 said:

You don't need me to tell you this. You should have already seen it by yourselves.

My suggestion for this is for DE to make the process of killing a larvae active after a quest has been selected.

So you activate a quest darvo/maroo/clem/whoever sends a message saying "yo, activity here, blah blah check it out". When the quest is active larvae will spawn as they do now, but if the quest IS NOT active then they DO NOT spawn and have NO CHANCE of spawning. The quest is repeatable and can be 'stopped' or disabled at any time, so if you don't want to participate in the lich system and spawn another one, you don't accidentally do so.

 

This would be a common sense 'flip switch' for anyone who's already done what they want to in the lich system, and also a good idea for those who either arent't geared /ready or don't want to play with the lich system.  

Edit: It's an easy change for DE, and it allows both sides to get what they want. Simple.   If players are complaining of something basic like this and encountering it, then it's DE's job to fix it. And since it can be fixed easily enough. Not sure why some players downplay or try to insult others when they want change, even if everyone benefits.  

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Tinklzs

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

So the only real solution is to add a way to reset you lich. Obviously this needs to have some sort of restriction or else it would be abused, so limiting thing it to once a week seems fair.

That being said, given the number of these threads that appear each week we need a way to prevent stupid habits. At this point adding a hold to confirm larvling kill may reduce the number of accidental larvling stabbings. Please note that as many cite reflex as the cause for the accidental stabbing this will not be a solution that works for everyone, but it should help to prevent habitual stabbings.

As with all things in life, think before you act since many actions have permanent consequences.

[i.chit.you.not]

4 hours of collecting murmur per weapon is insane, ran many rounds of liches for same weapon (prior to larvae update) and i already burned out/tired

even with new larvae display update, i still refuse to do this lich thing still sitting on an old lich with a 4th repeat of a useless tonkor and i call it the end of wf for me

-no longer have any interest to play, even once in awhile i log in to see baro inventory

[xcrimsonlegendx]

As someone who's killed about 50 liches, I've fallen into a rhythm and don't find it all that bad. A good guess or two along the way and you can take down a fresh lich pretty fast.

[Redfeather75]

My lich has been alive for 2 weeks now. When he asks if I'm ignoring him it is more funny now.

[Educated_Beast]

I did the same thing the other day.  It was late and I wanted to spawn new lich before going to bed.  

I screwed up and stabbed the larvaling on accident and I'm stuck farming a 27% damage duplicate.  At best I'll get +10% on a low percent weapon that I don't really like anyway.  I already have one convert, don't see a reason to have two (I know talks of railjack crew, but that's talks and we have no idea the implementation).  I guess I'll have two...

 

We really need a confirm button on these guys.  The code is already there, just go into the release/kill hold for 3 seconds screen like we convert/kill at end so it goes full circle.  

I've seen all the arguments and they don't make since.  The consequences of failure are to high even though it is low risk.  Besides, it's 3 seconds every 5-30 capture missions anyway.  It's not like you stab everyone.  I'm not saying take out the weapon icon over head.  I'm saying leave it in and let it stay while making choice.  

Does anyone really hate the "are you sure you want to permanetely delete this file" question in recycle bin?  It's a similar concept.  

Add 3 seconds every 20 or so runs or add 2-4 hours every once in awhile when you have a brain fart.  Seems like a no brainier to include it as a courtesy to players.  

Edited February 26, 2020 by Educated_Beast

[(PSN)Silverback73]

14 hours ago, disco_inferno6 said:

I've played Warframe for something along the lines of 5k ingame hrs and been a client of yours since 2015.

Not that you owe me any favour for it (nor do I). Just mentioning it to put things into perspective for whoever might read.

 

Kuva Lich is one of the gamemodes that you should have changed a long time ago.

Here is why.

After enduring the repetitive stabbing of murmurs for 3-4 hrs and finally killing a Lich, i've just re-entered a grineer mission in order to reactivate the gamemode for the purpose of acquisition of one the remaining 5 kuva weapons that i lack from my arsenal.

Out of reflex, habbit, stupidity, call it what you want, I mistakenly stabbed the Kuva Larving without checking the weapon it holds. (Just out of reflex probably after doing the same thing for the past 3-4 hrs of murmur "farming").

So now I'm stuck with a kuva that bears a weapon I already own.

If memory serves, I lack 5 kuva weapons + this unintended double.

So I face 18-24 hrs of miserable repetition of stabbing murmurs over and over again.

 

No rational person can subject themselves through such a miserable experience.

 

You should have reduced the amount of murmurs needed per lich A LONG TIME AGO.

Also you should have given the option to cancel a Lich just in the case of such a mistake (as mentioned above).

This is not endgame. This is the end of feeling any satisfaction while gaming.

Who in their right mind will subject themselves to such a miserable repetition ?

This is so exhausting to the point of feeling like hostility towards your clients.

You don't need me to tell you this. You should have already seen it by yourselves.

 

Do do it at a leisurely pace and then use the new mechanic to merge and buff?

[844448]

13 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

What? They actually increased it. It started at 50-50-50 (150 total) for the 3 symbols, then got turned up to 30-60-90 (180 total). They also prevented you from getting progress when allies fail a guess.

First murmur requires 60% : 30

Second murmur requires 100% : 50

Third murmur requires 140% : 70

Total is 150 murmurs

Ripped straight from hotfix 26.0.4 thread

Tweaked the Requiem Murmur discovery requirements for each hint to reduce initial ramp-up:

• Instead of each Murmur requiring the same amount of Hints, the first Murmur requires 60%, second requires 100%, with the last Murmur requiring 140%

So no, it's not turned up at all, it's still 150

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

Liches as a weapon dispenser doesn't work well with Liches as a menacing nemesis.

Overall I like 'em.  I don't like dropping everything to crack open Requiem Relics and collect a fresh Requiem Mod when the one I have expires.  I don't like how the Requiem Mods unveil through progressively increasing murmur requirements.  I like Valence Fusion incredibly much more than Transfer.  The Kuva Lich bundle in the Market is disgustingly overpriced and/or should be broken up so folks can buy the few things they want/need out of it.  

I want to have a Converted Kuva Lich as my co-pilot.

[trst]

Honestly if anyone manages to be so spaced out while playing that you go through flashing lights, a Kuva Guardian transmission, a unique persistent waypoint, a unique enemy, and the execution prompt and still somehow stab the larva on accident then you deserve to go through a grind you don't want.

20 hours ago, disco_inferno6 said:

You should have reduced the amount of murmurs needed per lich A LONG TIME AGO.

Also you should have given the option to cancel a Lich just in the case of such a mistake (as mentioned above).

This is not endgame. This is the end of feeling any satisfaction while gaming.

Who in their right mind will subject themselves to such a miserable repetition ?

This is so exhausting to the point of feeling like hostility towards your clients.

You don't need me to tell you this. You should have already seen it by yourselves.

They did exactly that quite awhile ago.

DE, nor anyone else, should be responsible for your mistakes. You have five entire warnings regarding the Larva, if you stab one you didn't want then it's your fault.

If the tier5 Lich missions aren't "end-game" to you then congratulations nothing in the game can be endgame to you besides endurance runs.

Just because you don't enjoy something doesn't mean others can't.

Personal problem. If you don't like them then don't engage with the system.

The community has already told them; every change made to the system since release have been the result from player feedback.

 

If anything the only major flaw to the Lich system as it works currently is not being able to disable Larva spawning entirely for those who are either finished with the system or who don't want to fight them at all.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

14 hours ago, Nezha_Rose said:

Perhaps I didnt need to use whiteknights, my apologies for that. But it comes from a place from frustration as a player of the game, in which any feedback one voices get taken down by others with either "doesnt happen to me" or "oh another one complaining", a trend that has been steadily growing on this forum since 2019. It takes away motivations from being constructive, the only good thing I see is how easy to get +rep in this site with "Hahas" but other than that I dont see any other benefit of this behavior.

Be the change you want to see. People will relax around you if they sense you're not going to give them a hard time. And your life will be much more serene when you have no enemies.

The behavior you're describing has been my daily experience with this board for the last six years. Everyone will tell you the same. I have a running joke that forum replies are actually selected from a dropdown list.

Honestly, the problem with the liche system isn't that murmurs take too long to farm; it's that DE invoked the Nemesis system, then scrapped a year and a half of planning and shipped a f2p resource grind for some guns and art. I don't know if they went astray trying to create a rival you can't one-shot, or if they gave up and felt like they had to ship something. But this can't be what they wanted to make.

[Travis05]

The problem here is you are just focusing on liches. You cant log in and just do this all day. I know you probably finished the previous content, but if you havent variety you will get burn out quickly. And if you are extremely bored and dont want to do anything else...maybe is better that you take a break.

Liches arent good right now, true. But they arent mean to be rushed i think. Or at least i wouldnt do it, cause i know i wouldnt last long. How many liches you did? 50? 70? And you are already burn out. Even if the content were REALLY good how much you could do? Nothing is infinite.

About improving it, i disagree with you. Its true the grinding is bad, but no so bad that i would reduce the murmur farming. I think the main problem is this:

hace 23 horas, Marvelous_A dijo:

-It isn't nemesis (it doesn't find you unless you let it do)

It fails doing his only job. Of course the weapons are great. The game is focused on loot. But at the end of the day this is a game and if you cant make it fun and inmersive, the content is just grinding.

And i think the community is the greater obstacle. If they really were nemesis and tried to find us, people would complain so much that the forums would explode. Saying its too hard or too bothersome.

So idk how this could be fixed.

[Fallen77]

Le 26/2/2020 à 17:49, Nezha_Rose a dit :

Perhaps I didnt need to use whiteknights, my apologies for that. But it comes from a place from frustration as a player of the game, in which any feedback one voices get taken down by others with either "doesnt happen to me" or "oh another one complaining", a trend that has been steadily growing on this forum since 2019. It takes away motivations from being constructive, the only good thing I see is how easy to get +rep in this site with "Hahas" but other than that I dont see any other benefit of this behavior.
 

I don't have the energy to make a wall to respond to most the stuff you said, I think we can juste agree to disagree on those points.

But I strongly wanna defend those "doesn't happen to me" and "another complaint" :

Of course, their is a part of that crowd that are just trolls/salt-miners, no doubt about it, but it's not all that simple.

"Doesn't happen to me", as long as it's coupled with a good argumentation, can be a valid answer, either to add to the stats that a couple of players are making up in isolation, or to help in figuring out that a set glitch is an isolated one, as opposed to a widespread issue. But people tend to get triggered at the sole view of that statement. Which sadens me, as I have been labeled a white knight when I was just trying to add to the conversation.

 

And " another dude complaining for nothing", tho it's not a very glamorous way to handle the situation, it's often very much called for. You could make walls of text to detail your pov, but the core message is the same : "this complaint is ludicrous / about absolutly menial things / would damage the game if it was acted on.". People have the right to do BS complaints, but we also have the right to point their BS out.

Of course, there can also be abuse or trolling there, but it's far from a majority from what I've seen.

[Tinklzs]

17 hours ago, trst said:

They did exactly that quite awhile ago.

DE, nor anyone else, should be responsible for your mistakes. You have five entire warnings regarding the Larva, if you stab one you didn't want then it's your fault.

If the tier5 Lich missions aren't "end-game" to you then congratulations nothing in the game can be endgame to you besides endurance runs.

Just because you don't enjoy something doesn't mean others can't.

Personal problem. If you don't like them then don't engage with the system.

The community has already told them; every change made to the system since release have been the result from player feedback.

 

If anything the only major flaw to the Lich system as it works currently is not being able to disable Larva spawning entirely for those who are either finished with the system or who don't want to fight them at all.

Could've done it a bit more, or at least made it more fun. The system is a decent foundation, but in the end it isn't fun. You're not doing missions for the missions, but picking and choosing which ones are more efficient for a singular goal - murmurs. And to that end, it works, but it alienates the rest of Warframe, you aren't there for loot but to chase a resource (murmurs) to an end goal (kill/convert the lich). Which could be made more fun or more passive, it's a poor design in that regard which could be made better.

DE could make the larvae system be attached to a quest, enable the quest and larvae can spawn - disable it and they don't. It's a simple approach to alleviate this issue, it isn't DE's responsibility that someone else makes a mistake, however they have the power to change that. While it isn't required, it would be a nice QoL change, not only for those looking for larvae, but who don't want to participate in the lich system, which will help reduce complaints, so a win-win for everyone here. And even those who do like the lich system win here.

They're a form of end-game, Warframe doesn't have a true end-game like most MMO's, it's a branch system. WoW has 'endgame' too, Raids, PvP, achievement hunting, collecting mounts/pets etc. However it isn't a singular thing. Warframe has Eidolon/Orb hunting, ESO for some, Arbitrations for others. Lich hunting is a form of this, I think what could make it better is if they added scaling rewards to 'cement' this, it would at least give a reason for players to chase liches, instead of just murmurs.

That is true, I don't much care for the lich system as it stands currently, even though they have made some improvements to it. And I'm sure that there are some who enjoy it as it is. However, that doesn't negate the criticisms and advice given by the community to make it better, it's everyone's game, DE has the final say, but everyone plays it. I've voiced what they can change, in a reasonable manner, here and elsewhere. Scaling rewards being #1.

Going back up to #2's response, if they make it an opt-in quest system (like nidus, harrow, mirage, limbo etc) when it would be the fault of the player 100%, they walked in the door (turned on the quest) no issue there. I think many players end up accidentally stabbing their lich due to the new parazon/finisher system. It's quite hard to kill a normal enemy now with it (since it activates at 5% health) and everyone wants to look like a badass kung-fu fighting and stabbing stuff. Until they realize it's a lich, and it's another duplicate for a weapon they don't want in a system they didn't want to participate in.  So again, make it a quest and bypass this drama, everyone wins.   Doesn't matter who you fault here, DE has the power to change it.

Sure, DE has begrudgingly changed some stuff (like wrestling moves = insta kill, DE Steve wasn't happy about that one IIRC), but they have made some changes that were overall better for the system. I'm just hoping they add more changes to make it worth playing after you've gotten the goodies you want to get, I think scaling rewards truly is a first step towards that goal. We don't need more 'one and done" additions, where you complete it, then never touch it again except for the odd quest/warframe (fortuna) or the occasional event (plains). 

 

 

[844448]

47 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

Could've done it a bit more, or at least made it more fun. The system is a decent foundation, but in the end it isn't fun. You're not doing missions for the missions, but picking and choosing which ones are more efficient for a singular goal - murmurs. And to that end, it works, but it alienates the rest of Warframe, you aren't there for loot but to chase a resource (murmurs) to an end goal (kill/convert the lich). Which could be made more fun or more passive, it's a poor design in that regard which could be made better.

Oh DE can make it more passive like having your lich appear whenever you do to collect their tithe/idiot tax personally and if you die on their hand, they can take 100% of your loot so you get nothing at the end of the mission unlesss you run away with your lich mocking you to death if you run away but that may also cause people to cry that their lich is too strong, annoying, take too much, etc like this thread I made

 

53 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

They're a form of end-game, Warframe doesn't have a true end-game like most MMO's, it's a branch system. WoW has 'endgame' too, Raids, PvP, achievement hunting, collecting mounts/pets etc. However it isn't a singular thing. Warframe has Eidolon/Orb hunting, ESO for some, Arbitrations for others. Lich hunting is a form of this, I think what could make it better is if they added scaling rewards to 'cement' this, it would at least give a reason for players to chase liches, instead of just murmurs.

This is the problem I always ask to those who asking this, what kind of "scaling rewards" do you want? What we get from missions are credits, endo, mods and resources so what kind of scaling do we need after this long? I don't think you need 1k nano spores drop from a fallen enemy at higher level so what kind of scaling that the players ask about?

57 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

Going back up to #2's response, if they make it an opt-in quest system (like nidus, harrow, mirage, limbo etc) when it would be the fault of the player 100%, they walked in the door (turned on the quest) no issue there. I think many players end up accidentally stabbing their lich due to the new parazon/finisher system. It's quite hard to kill a normal enemy now with it (since it activates at 5% health) and everyone wants to look like a badass kung-fu fighting and stabbing stuff. Until they realize it's a lich, and it's another duplicate for a weapon they don't want in a system they didn't want to participate in.  So again, make it a quest and bypass this drama, everyone wins.   Doesn't matter who you fault here, DE has the power to change it.

I don't know though, there's this big red marker on the lich head and they look pretty different with male lich being WoSS fugitive while female being scorpion with karak. I don't think that's not obvious enough and seeing how they're kneeling instead of dying instantly (when was the last time people have time to leave enemies to 5% health just to stab them?)

[Tinklzs]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

This is the problem I always ask to those who asking this, what kind of "scaling rewards" do you want?

I've stated them before (admittedly not in this thread, but it's a dead horse at this point for me), most resources would be increased to 2x their normal drop amount. Endo would be 1.5 (so instead of 400 it would be 600) so a 50 to 100% increase in resource gain. Also rotation rewards would work like disruption BBCC~~, meaning DE could have endless kuva lich missions where you could stay for longer than 5 minutes but not indefinitely (say 30 mins max).

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

I don't know though, there's this big red marker on the lich head and they look pretty different with male lich being WoSS fugitive while female being scorpion with karak. I don't think that's not obvious enough and seeing how they're kneeling instead of dying instantly (when was the last time people have time to leave enemies to 5% health just to stab them?)

Are you saying it isn't worth adding this lich system under an optional quest?  I think it's completely worth it, those who don't want to participate don't have to worry about it, and those who do just need to activate a simple quest (that resets after you kill or convert the lich). "I accidentally killed a larvae" posts would mostly disappear. I think overall it's a better system than what we currently have, with a true opt-in opt-out system.    yes, yes I hear you already "but just don' t stab them" that doesn't add anything, and it doesn't disprove my point.

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

(when was the last time people have time to leave enemies to 5% health just to stab them?)

 

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

everyone wants to look like a badass kung-fu fighting and stabbing stuff.

^ and so aren't paying attention to such things, they see the symbol for "STABBY STAB" and do so. I'd argue DE has trained players with this system, however the responsibility for the stab falls on the player, but this frustration can easily be avoided with the quest system idea I mentioned. Bypassing this problem entirely, then afterwards anyone who makes the mistake learns of the system, and probably won't do it again.  

[Nezha_Rose]

On 2020-02-27 at 3:08 AM, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Be the change you want to see. People will relax around you if they sense you're not going to give them a hard time. And your life will be much more serene when you have no enemies.

The behavior you're describing has been my daily experience with this board for the last six years. Everyone will tell you the same. I have a running joke that forum replies are actually selected from a dropdown list.

Fair enough.

On 2020-02-27 at 1:15 PM, Fallen77 said:

I don't have the energy to make a wall to respond to most the stuff you said, I think we can juste agree to disagree on those points.

But I strongly wanna defend those "doesn't happen to me" and "another complaint" :

Of course, their is a part of that crowd that are just trolls/salt-miners, no doubt about it, but it's not all that simple.

"Doesn't happen to me", as long as it's coupled with a good argumentation, can be a valid answer, either to add to the stats that a couple of players are making up in isolation, or to help in figuring out that a set glitch is an isolated one, as opposed to a widespread issue. But people tend to get triggered at the sole view of that statement. Which sadens me, as I have been labeled a white knight when I was just trying to add to the conversation.

 

And " another dude complaining for nothing", tho it's not a very glamorous way to handle the situation, it's often very much called for. You could make walls of text to detail your pov, but the core message is the same : "this complaint is ludicrous / about absolutly menial things / would damage the game if it was acted on.". People have the right to do BS complaints, but we also have the right to point their BS out.

Of course, there can also be abuse or trolling there, but it's far from a majority from what I've seen.

I kinda wanna let this go now if its alright, in the end it really doesnt matter considering that the whole lich system isnt finished yet, so its best to just wait it out and see what DE has planned for it. Sorry for offending you there, water under the bridge?

Considering the latest devstreams theres other stuff that I wanna focus on for now on.

[Fallen77]

Il y a 4 heures, Nezha_Rose a dit :

Fair enough.

I kinda wanna let this go now if its alright, in the end it really doesnt matter considering that the whole lich system isnt finished yet, so its best to just wait it out and see what DE has planned for it. Sorry for offending you there, water under the bridge?

Considering the latest devstreams theres other stuff that I wanna focus on for now on.

Yeah that last devstream is the only thing on my mind atm

[BloodForCavalero]

On 2020-02-26 at 5:28 AM, disco_inferno6 said:

I've played Warframe for something along the lines of 5k ingame hrs and been a client of yours since 2015.

Not that you owe me any favour for it (nor do I). Just mentioning it to put things into perspective for whoever might read.

 

Kuva Lich is one of the gamemodes that you should have changed a long time ago.

Here is why.

After enduring the repetitive stabbing of murmurs for 3-4 hrs and finally killing a Lich, i've just re-entered a grineer mission in order to reactivate the gamemode for the purpose of acquisition of one the remaining 5 kuva weapons that i lack from my arsenal.

Out of reflex, habbit, stupidity, call it what you want, I mistakenly stabbed the Kuva Larving without checking the weapon it holds. (Just out of reflex probably after doing the same thing for the past 3-4 hrs of murmur "farming").

So now I'm stuck with a kuva that bears a weapon I already own.

If memory serves, I lack 5 kuva weapons + this unintended double.

So I face 18-24 hrs of miserable repetition of stabbing murmurs over and over again.

 

No rational person can subject themselves through such a miserable experience.

 

You should have reduced the amount of murmurs needed per lich A LONG TIME AGO.

Also you should have given the option to cancel a Lich just in the case of such a mistake (as mentioned above).

This is not endgame. This is the end of feeling any satisfaction while gaming.

Who in their right mind will subject themselves to such a miserable repetition ?

This is so exhausting to the point of feeling like hostility towards your clients.

You don't need me to tell you this. You should have already seen it by yourselves.

 

There's a new room in the dojo, where you can trade your Lich to other people.

After all the current changes to the Lich missions, it shouldn't take you more than 6 hours to kill one.

[Aadi880]

Shared murmur from squadmate's liches' failed requiems are coming back. So that's a plus.

[Electra-VIIX]

I'm stuck in kind of limbo hell with my lich right now.  I'm on the last 80 percent of her third murmer slot, but all the missions are too hard to solo.  I'm trying not to get my lich too strong and I am not trying to kill it yet.  It's level 2.  Right now she's enraged with me and is bursting into every mission I do.  I avoid her and finish objectives and get out.  With other players, I don't think I can do that.

So, I'm kind of stuck.

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

On 2020-02-26 at 10:11 AM, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

If you randomly guess right murmurs do get carried over which happens often if you "enage" your lich, you also get a kuva reward as well. Its a long grind if you ignore the lich to keep it at lv 1. 2 to 3 hrs is usually enough to get the murmurs if you got terrible luck.

I don't want to waste 2-3 hours of my weekend because my Lich doesn't have an ephemera. That's the point. It's brutal torture and people who have adulting to do don't have that kind of time. I'm already mind-numbed by my job once I get home, the last thing I want to do when I actually get a break is #*!% over myself even more.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 hour ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

I don't want to waste 2-3 hours of my weekend because my Lich doesn't have an ephemera. That's the point. It's brutal torture and people who have adulting to do don't have that kind of time. I'm already mind-numbed by my job once I get home, the last thing I want to do when I actually get a break is #*!% over myself even more.

Agreed. We need a way to reset active Liches once a week. That way you can spawn a lich, check to see if it has an ephemera, if it does then you farm it, if not then you reset it and try again next week. This makes it a weekly activity, not a tedious grind.