About Self-Damage and opinions

[Zephyr_TheMLGPro]

The players i'm gonna play with wont miss the self damage as i'll keep em in check by rad'ing myself and going ham.

Spoiler

/s incase someone says reporting this guy

 

[kwlingo]

7 hours ago, Zephyr_TheMLGPro said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

/s incase someone says reporting this guy

 

We use to get this all the time for Sorties "Radiation". So why are people so mad that they are taking self-damage out of the game? Im all about it. It balances nuking frames to a minimum.

Edited March 2, 2020 by kwlingo

[GPrime96]

He say that before Teammates bring Kuva Brammas into Radiation Sorties.

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

12 hours ago, taiiat said:

no it doesn't, not in any way whatsoever does it impact the content in the game.

It limits any boss fight from having a straight damage dealing section. Anything that can be damaged normally can be instantly killed by a Chroma. This is a reason why so many bosses have invulnerabality only over come by special mechanics. It's basically impossible to have an encounter where players deal sustained damage while avoiding an enimies mechanics. Warframe has multiple powerful builds that contribute to this but I think Chroma is the most stark example.

[Lion]

14 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I don’t know about you, but I find post rework Wukong, Vauban, and Ember to be very fun and can compete in modern content that is not Eidolons. Sure they are not as hillariously broken as before (see old Wukong Defy making him immortal) but at least they are still strong and importantly more fun and encourage active play.

Have to agree here. The Wukong and Vauban reworks in particular made them so fun to use now

[Yakhul]

I dont know why people keep asking for something to give self damage to Chroma. Just go get smacked by an Eidolon beam and done, your Vex armor fury buffs maxed out. Or if you go vs Profit Taker, same deal, there are so many enemies there that your Fury buffs reach max before you even notice, and you can refresh now Vex Armor.

Chroma does not need self damage to function, but now, it needs a player with a working brain that isn't stuck in the self damage chroma thing.

But well, if this spark a rework idea for chroma, so be it, let em keep complaining.

[MPonder]

Ember rework sux, Old Ember > New Ember for eidolon too.

[TheFoxing]

you can't self rad proc yourself.

[Diavoros]

There is literally one reason of why the self-damage removal could be detrimental to some players and that is those who use Chroma in Eidolon runs as they wont be able to build up vex armor as fast. Other than that, there is no benefit whatsoever from killing or hurting yourself with your own weaponry.

[Crusher4881]

Radiation on players should be removed from the game for its trolling potential. Any time there's a radiation sortie, I'm going to run it solo.

[Guest]

Or maybe they could rework Chroma into an interesting frame instead of a gimmicky one-trick pony.

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

It limits any boss fight from having a straight damage dealing section. Anything that can be damaged normally can be instantly killed by a Chroma. 

oh, please. you talk as if you don't know that there are other Damage Multiplying Abilities in the game, and that our Stats are just really high in the first place.

Edited March 2, 2020 by taiiat

[kwlingo]

4 hours ago, Crusher4881 said:

Radiation on players should be removed from the game for its trolling potential. Any time there's a radiation sortie, I'm going to run it solo.

Except for Interception ahaha  But yes its not fun being nuked by your own side. lol

[Fire2box]

19 hours ago, SamMitter said:

 if a frame is only viable while using a particular side effect game mechanics; it need to reworked

Hear that DE? It's time to make farming frames do something else. 

[VanFanel1980mx]

Do Chroma players just hate getting hit by enemy fire?

[Yamazuki]

There are things that apply rad out of sortie.

[VanFanel1980mx]

I am one of those who think self-damage has no place in PvE, I can understand the whole risk vs reward idea from those who don't oppose having it, the main problem is how a lot of people try to just call out others who don't share their point of view, the thing is yes, explosive spam is a thing, Wukong is going nuts with the Bramma, but way before that we had problems with self-damage for two important reasons, collisions and damage scaling.

When it comes to collisions for some reason DE opted for ally projectiles to take other players into account for mechanics like punch-through and explosives, this also applies to NPCs and companions sometimes which ends up in situations where no matter how careful the player is, they will blow themselves up because a player, npc or companion decided to get in the way, this can't be mitigated by skill unless you have super human reflexes.

As for damage, a youtuber I follow just pointed out something important, DE has insisted players and enemies to be always bound to the same rules despite players not having the same damage and resistance scaling, weapons can be modded to deal insane amounts of damage on PvE, apparently on PvP stuff is rebalanced differently, this means the game could have a different ruleset for damage and scaling applied to self-damage, DE obviously didn't apply to that, people asked for some different method of calculation which would result in punishment but not just dying on the spot, sadly it didn't happen.

Long story short, players in favor of self-damage tend to blame other players for the final change we are getting but all other alternatives have been suggested in the past, DE just choose to ignore them until someone suggested self-CC instead and maybe they thought it was the easiest one to implement, stop directing your hate towards other players, we can always cram the feedback section with tons of suggestions but it is DE's choice at the end for better or worse (which is usually the case.)

[Zsword]

Like Void Lazers!

...

I think that's it. Every other rad instance I can think of was Sortie, either directly, or indirectly. (+Fire Corpus Sortie=Rad Ratels, very scary. + Electric Grineer Sortie= Rad Ignis's and Napalms. Not as scary but still a threat.)

[(NSW)Evilpricetag]

That self stagger can just as well be suicide in a crowded area. Instant death depending on enemy levels and frame being used.

[VanFanel1980mx]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Evilpricetag said:

That self stagger can just as well be suicide in a crowded area. Instant death depending on enemy levels and frame being used.

Pretty much, remember the backflip is not automatic.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Self-CC has been suggested no more or less than other solutions in the past, it's nothing new, DE have just caved into the complaints and are repeating a past mistake on a grander scale.

 It's not impossible to keep self damage as actual damage while accounting for the disparity in player and enemy health. It just needs the output to be fed into an algorithm that applies a diminishing return to the result instead of being fixed as a static percentage of the outgoing damage.

Status and 'stability' buffs are in enough places that the result of this change will be literally zero punishment even in the 'worst case' scenario. Even without them, the thing about being knocked down in a 'crowded' area is.. You've just shot down an explosive in that area. By all rights, most of that opposition are also either knocked down or incapacitated while you are.

It's not a punishment. It's a minor inconvenience at best, completely ignored at worst.

[VanFanel1980mx]

5 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's not impossible to keep self damage as actual damage while accounting for the disparity in player and enemy health. It just needs the output to be fed into an algorithm that applies a diminishing return to the result instead of being fixed as a static percentage of the outgoing damage.

Precisely, but they choose self-CC for whatever reason, still, much hate is being directed towards the players as if people at DE were pushed to do that specific change.

[Jiminez_Burial]

25 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

maybe they thought it was the easiest one to implement

My issue with this is that a damage scaling/limiting calculation is something anyone with a Year 9 (or 8th grade if you're in the US) knowledge of mathematics would have no trouble writing into the code.  Basically all the solutions I can think of could be implemented in a simple line/block of code that's nothing more than a state check/if else statement with an accompanying equation.  When it comes to implementing the changes, they're all within a few minutes of each other and all need to be tested in a way that properly written exception throws would make it a menial task.

As for the main point of your post, why can't people who are fine with self-damage as it is blame both DE and aspects of the community?  People who can't be arsed getting better at the game pressured DE into making a (from my perspective) foolish decision that makes the game even further brain-dead than it already is.

[TheLexiConArtist]

7 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

My issue with this is that a damage scaling/limiting calculation is something anyone with a Year 9 (or 8th grade if you're in the US) knowledge of mathematics would have no trouble writing into the code.  Basically all the solutions I can think of could be implemented in a simple line/block of code that's nothing more than a state check/if else statement with an accompanying equation.  When it comes to implementing the changes, they're all within a few minutes of each other and all need to be tested in a way that properly written exception throws would make it a menial task.

In the spirit of daytime television everywhere, here's one I prepared earlier!

 

On 2020-02-28 at 10:33 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

I am just an armchair mathematician, but some time ago I suggested the equation thus:

D * ( 1 - ( X / ( D ^ ( Y / D ) ) )

Where D = DAMAGE; X = DIMINISHING FACTOR; Y = DIMINISH THRESHOLD.

Tweaking X and Y in that formula can squash and stretch the damage progression drastically.

Example:

Spoiler

 

Y = 100; X = 1

D(500) = 355 self-damage (appx 71%)

D(5000) = 783 self-damage (appx 15.7%)

D(1000000) = 1380 self-damage (appx 0.14%)

At the maximum diminishing factor of 1, we can see that massive outputs are still 'survivable'.

Y = 100; X = 0.99

D(500) = 357 self-damage (appx 71.4%)

D(5000) = 825 self-damage (appx 16.5%)

D(1000000) = 11366 self-damage (appx 1.14%)

Reducing the rate of diminish allows fatal self-damage to scale down into higher accessible levels.

Y = 30; X = 0.99

D(500) = 159 self-damage (appx 32%)

D(5000) = 296 self-damage (appx 6%)

D(1000000) = 10410 self-damage (appx 1.04%)

Reducing the point of diminishment lowers the floor of reduced damage at small values, while preserving most of the upper-boundary risk (depending on rate) at higher values.

 

I'm not saying that's a perfect formula. But it's a proof of concept.

Although some of that rarest actual intelligent discussion in a previous time I've brought it up did point out that it's not quite as simple as throwing that formula into the code block that hits the player with their damage. Because of Multishot, it has to be baked into the projectile in advance or the multishot would allow bypassing the diminishing return.

But it's still fairly simple to solve. Projectile multishot already does a similar function with crits - the gain from the critting projectiles actually spreads evenly across the non-critting projectiles as well, white and yellow numbers from the same single trigger pull appear to deal the same damage. In the same way, the 'total outgoing damage' on trigger-pull can be calculated and divided among the projectiles (possibly also over the damage events for triggered self-damage weapons like Penta, though this could be trickier in the spaghetticcode, and isn't strictly necessary).

[VanFanel1980mx]

14 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

People who can't be arsed getting better at the game

Because as explained above, it is not just people spamming projectiles, there were legitimate issues beyond the player's control, no player has really that much power over DE and you know it, they have ignored player feedback when it suits them so much that it is almost a meme.