About Self-Damage and opinions

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

It's a good thing that it was removed.

For those "so good at the game", it won't change a thing for you right ? Since you can predict at all time when your kavat is gonna TP / jump in front of you right ?

So yes, it's a very good change, no reason to cling onto selfdamage, no reason to barther for keeping some selfdamage, appart for those that previously went high and beyond to prove how pivotal it is to WF gameplay loop (spoiler, it's not).

Does it change the thrill-appeal of bungee-jumping depending on whether the surface underneath your jump is solid, water, or 5 metre thick foam? Is it the same to skydive out of a plane as it is to grab a wingsuit and go into one of those recreational facilities and let an industrial fan blow you up to a hovering position?

It's completely different. What value is there in having 'gotten good' at not blowing ourselves up with those weapons if suddenly everyone can use them without blowing themselves up? It's devaluing the effort put in to master them while also removing that thrill of danger.

Is it any more pivotal to the Warframe gameplay loop to have 100% of weapons available to you at zero risk than 91.7% of weapons? Not at all. It's just..greed.

Edited March 2, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist

[Jiminez_Burial]

23 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

For those "so good at the game", it won't change a thing for you right ? Since you can predict at all time when your kavat is gonna TP / jump in front of you right ?

Assumptions assumptions assumptions.  Yesterday I blew myself up with my Bramma 3 times and I'm still someone who argues that self-damage should be kept.  Just because someone thinks others should 'git gud' doesn't mean they don't have areas to improve in themselves.  Recognising that a major aspect of gaming itself is overcoming an obstacle is not the same as thinking you're perfect.  Aside from instances where an ally is moving faster than the projectile that you've just fired, everything else is the fault of the person firing the weapon. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Jiminez_Burial

[nslay]

So new Eidolon strategy is a team mate rad procs him/herself and then shoots the Chroma? Wow, just wow.

[Fallen77]

il y a 11 minutes, Cubewano a dit :

Interesting that you decide to argue with a fictional strawman for your defense instead of addressing some of the actual arguments being made in this thread. 

Sooo, I was originally giving my two cents on the topic at hand and anticipating answers that we both know (don't be naive), were coming.

Did I start a thread based on those arguments ? Or answering a specific post thanks to those ? No, I was just covering my back.

But if you wanna antagonize me and put me in a little box, go at it, I'm not kink shaming anyone.

But I'd like you to tell me, what arguments in this thread doesn't apply to any of what I said ? (I only read first page by now, don't know what thread'll look like when I'll finally post this) Many are giving WAYS to make self damage work, and I didn't say anything against those. But I haven't seen a REASON to want to keep selfdamage that I did not cover already. Come on, show me someone here that had a reason to want selfdamage back other than :

_sad chroma baby

_leet player too cool for school that can't accept others not blowing themselves up for stupid sh#t

_forum warrior defending his case from 2 years ago

Most people here, from what I've seen, are just giving methods to make selfdamage work better, not giving reason to why they want it back. WHY do you want it back ? (If you do)

How would the game be made worst by removing Sdamage ? How would it be better by keeping it ? I sure as hell have not been presented any other argument than what I listed so far (assuming you can read between the lines and get the big picture), but I'll be happy to be enlightened.

And for what you said about pro-Sdamage getting some sh#t right now... You surprised ? We finally get rid of an overwhelmingly hated mechanic that didn't make any sense in terms of game design and brought major disconfort to anyone using those weapons, but some meta slaves are crying against it because their main is gonna take ever so slightly more effort to play now (be honest, it's the majority of those complaining about it). Of course people are gonna badly react. I don't say it's a good thing to harass people or be straight toxic, but I fully understand where they're coming from.

Again, I was just giving my opinion about the situation, you know, the title of the thread. Yes I was showing it relative to what I've already been answered to, but this shows where I stand and what I've been presented with, and you're free to add to it.

I am open to discussion, you just assumed I was a troll/toxic/whatever.

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

But I'd like you to tell me, what arguments in this thread doesn't apply to any of what I said ? (I only read first page by now, don't know what thread'll look like when I'll finally post this) Many are giving WAYS to make self damage work, and I didn't say anything against those. But I haven't seen a REASON to want to keep selfdamage that I did not cover already. Come on, show me someone here that had a reason to want selfdamage back other than :

_sad chroma baby

_leet player too cool for school that can't accept others not blowing themselves up for stupid sh#t

_forum warrior defending his case from 2 years ago

Most people here, from what I've seen, are just giving methods to make selfdamage work better, not giving reason to why they want it back. WHY do you want it back ? (If you do)

How would the game be made worst by removing Sdamage ? How would it be better by keeping it ? I sure as hell have not been presented any other argument than what I listed so far (assuming you can read between the lines and get the big picture), but I'll be happy to be enlightened.

This is the known as 'moving the goalposts'. Arguments that, in order:

1) A frame playstyle greatly benefits in reliability from being able to self-damage

2) It is very possible for players to not blow themselves up (if they care to master this ability) and that some people enjoy the feeling of danger and mastery involved

3) A historic precedent exists that shows removal of self-damage can have enormously terrible consequences for balance, game health and inter-competitive build flexibility

All give fair arguable reasons why the game would be worse for removing or better by keeping. Just because you wish to disagree with the outcome does not mean these reasons do not exist.

You should also be careful to not misrepresent the second reason as "you all need to get good". There is a difference between insisting others change (incidentally, removing the self-damage risk playstyle is exactly this) and in simply stating that it is a possible result, whether any individual chooses to or not - and it's fine if they don't because there's plenty of other options to better suit them.

[Fallen77]

il y a une heure, Jiminez_Burial a dit :

Assumptions assumptions assumptions.  Yesterday I blew myself up with my Bramma 3 times and I'm still someone who argues that self-damage should be kept.  Just because someone thinks others should 'git gud' doesn't mean they don't have areas to improve in themselves.  Recognising that a major aspect of gaming itself is overcoming an obstacle is not the same as thinking you're perfect.  Aside from instances where an ally is moving faster than the projectile that you've just fired, everything else is the fault of the person firing the weapon. 

Short version of what I answered to OP : I don't know about YOU, you assumed I was talking about you, did you feel targeted ?

I am not talking about assumptions of my own, I am talking about things that have ACTUALLY been said to me or to others. And you know those leet guys are roaming the forum all day. You might be reasonnable, that's YOU, that doesn't take away from what many others are saying.

Now, for what you're saying (screw the short version ), and feel free to correct me, your stance is basically "challenging things are an integral part of the game". That's not something I have seen up until now. I'd say that yes, in a vaccum, no reason to remove that part. In context it's another story, warframe is not a slow and meticulous game, it's a fast pace experience, with tons of litteraly moving parts, some tping all over the place, friend AND foe alike, right in your face, at unpredictable moments. It's not like COD, where a single grenade has higher kill potential that most guns, can reach undercover ennemies and is a very deliberate action you do from time to time. Here, it's one of the main forms of damage you can choose, has almost always a lesser damage potential than non suicidal guns, no real use when taking nuke frame into account, and forces you to a crawl if you don't wanna die from the many 100% unpredictable things that can jump in your face, it makes ZERO sense as a challenge, nor as a drawback.

[Fallen77]

il y a 9 minutes, TheLexiConArtist a dit :

This is the known as 'moving the goalposts'. Arguments that, in order:

1) A frame playstyle greatly benefits in reliability from being able to self-damage

2) It is very possible for players to not blow themselves up (if they care to master this ability) and that some people enjoy the feeling of danger and mastery involved

3) A historic precedent exists that shows removal of self-damage can have enormously terrible consequences for balance, game health and inter-competitive build flexibility

All give fair arguable reasons why the game would be worse for removing or better by keeping. Just because you wish to disagree with the outcome does not mean these reasons do not exist.

You should also be careful to not misrepresent the second reason as "you all need to get good". There is a difference between insisting others change (incidentally, removing the self-damage risk playstyle is exactly this) and in simply stating that it is a possible result, whether any individual chooses to or not - and it's fine if they don't because there's plenty of other options to better suit them.

1 - no, a frame playstyle can finally be used as it was designed instead of being just cheese.

2 - it is also possible to win the lottery. I'll kill the enjoyment of a few suicidal dudes if it removes the potential for RNG based surprise suicide every day.

3 - All I know like that is the staticor, that got reverted back to no selfharm, and it's not exactly a meta weapon, nor one that I ever see in arbi/veil/sortie/lich. Other past events I'm not aware of ? And you can just look at the stats of explosive weapons to know that there is absolutly nothing to worry about, even with 20% more dmg.

Also, you can get down from your high horses, I never said that those arguments don't exist. In the very post you quoted, I was inviting people to share.

And for the last part, come on... It's not skill. A grineer teleporting axe man is not predictable nor based on skill. Your kavat or a teammate jumping through and in front of you is not predictable nor based on skill. Avoiding to shoot the wall's invisible hitbox is not based on skill. And getting hit by your own rocket because you're rumber-banded a meter too far from where you should be is not based on skill. That's just a false pretense here, you may have a reasonnable way to deliver your point, and I respect that, but it simply doesn't make any sense in the context of the game. If avoiding death by explosion was solely based on skill, I'd most likely be with yall on that, but it's not, AT ALL.

So too bad if a minority (we all know you're not thousands in that boat) of risk-liking players loose their russian roulette simulator, Ima be here enjoying the entirety of the explosiv weapons category without the fear of RANDOMLY one-shotting myself because god decided so.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

1 - no, a frame playstyle can finally be used as it was designed instead of being just cheese.

2 - it is also possible to win the lottery. I'll kill the enjoyment of a few suicidal dudes if it removes the potential for RNG based surprise suicide every day.

3 - All I know like that is the staticor, that got reverted back to no selfharm, and it's not exactly a meta weapon, nor one that I ever see in arbi/veil/sortie/lich. Other past events I'm not aware of ? And you can just look at the stats of explosive weapons to know that there is absolutly nothing to worry about, even with 20% more dmg.

Also, you can get down from your high horses, I never said that those arguments don't exist. In the very post you quoted, I was inviting people to share.

And for the last part, come on... It's not skill. A grineer teleporting axe man is not predictable nor based on skill. Your kavat or a teammate jumping through and in front of you is not predictable nor based on skill. Avoiding to shoot the wall's invisible hitbox is not based on skill. And getting hit by your own rocket because you're rumber-banded a meter too far from where you should be is not based on skill. That's just a false pretense here, you may have a reasonnable way to deliver your point, and I respect that, but it simply doesn't make any sense in the context of the game. If avoiding death by explosion was solely based on skill, I'd most likely be with yall on that, but it's not, AT ALL.

So too bad if a minority (we all know you're not thousands in that boat) of risk-liking players loose their russian roulette simulator, Ima be here enjoying the entirety of the explosiv weapons category without the fear of RANDOMLY one-shotting myself because god decided so.

3 - The Tonkor and Simulor Meta days. If you thought the Catchmoon's usage stats were overbearing, you should have been there for that. I'd stake a bet it was significantly higher.

You insinuated those arguments simply don't count. Objectively they are all true. They might not have convinced your subjective opinion on the matter to sway, but facts are still facts.

 

If it's not skill to use these weapons, how is it that I avoid putting myself on my back with each and every shot fired from my Kulstar when I'm challenging myself to do so inside my Snowglobe radius?

It's not RNG at all. It's situational awareness and personal judgement. You choose to shoot nearby possible obstructions, you judged that possible risk and deemed it safe enough to try. So you get it wrong sometimes. To those of us who like the gameplay, that's an accepted risk. We laugh it off. We accept our failing. We move on and strive to not do it again.

That said, we've all spoken many times about allied collision and how it applies to more things than just self-damage. Weapons which don't just dumbfire don't kill you, but you've still been obstructed by the collision. Weapons with no self-damage still have their bullets and projectiles eaten by allies. It is not a self-damage problem. Self-damage from dumbfired explosives is just a symptom and therefore is not what needs to change to treat the cause.

But sure, you get to be greedy for less than 10% of weapons at the cost of others' entire playstyle that doesn't affect you. Not even squadmates who drop themselves, since you don't have to pick them up. Seems legit.

[taiiat]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

No I don't. I aknowledged that in the last sentence.

as if you can't deal 100% of the Damage you're allowed to do to a Boss or w/e even without any Damage Multiplier Abilities.

the only restrictions on Enemy Design that having high Stats could create, is that you can't just make a 'Boss' be some dude rescaled up bigger and with a Health Bar 20x as long. 
but, who even thinks that is good Game Design anyways. the more special the Enemy, the more Mechanics should be mixed into Combat. just an XL sized Health Pool is a completely apathetic Design that creates no Gameplay interest regardless of your own Stats.

[kwlingo]

7 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

no thanks, Rad Sorties are bad enough. we don't need more ways to troll other players.

This thread is for those who still want self-damage.

Can't I be happy if I want to nuke my team so I can be the first to cross the finish line? lol

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

22 hours ago, kwlingo said:

DE just needs to have enemies proc more Radiation damage in missions and every other elemental damage in game. All they need to do is allow Radiation be the proc that can cause self-damage to yourself and you team mates... If we can for enemies balance the effect back onto Tennos.

But then there is a group of people who don't want self-damage on team mate?

I'd say this is a simple fix.

That the reason why enemies dont proc rad damage, there was a sortie condition that had rad hazards but players often abused it to troll or accidentally kill team with aoe abilities. The other elements wouldn't be too bad, having diversity is a good thing afer all. But Rad is unique in that its too easy to abuse.

Edited March 2, 2020 by (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

as if you can't deal 100% of the Damage you're allowed to do to a Boss or w/e even without any Damage Multiplier Abilities.

the only restrictions on Enemy Design that having high Stats could create, is that you can't just make a 'Boss' be some dude rescaled up bigger and with a Health Bar 20x as long. 
but, who even thinks that is good Game Design anyways. the more special the Enemy, the more Mechanics should be mixed into Combat. just an XL sized Health Pool is a completely apathetic Design that creates no Gameplay interest regardless of your own Stats.

Sorry I don't understand what you are saying. What do you mean by dealing 100% of allowed damage? Do you mean anyone can do this given enough time, or that it is very easy for most frames to do this in one attack?

High stats don't restrict that kind of design. Some out liers with much higher stats then the majority do (as well as other designs). The main problem is balance. If you design a  boss that takes the majority a minute to kill the out liers will kill it in seconds and ignore all the mechanics. If you design a boss the out liers take a minute to kill the majority will take an hour and be overwhelmed by the mechanics.

[taiiat]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

Sorry I don't understand what you are saying. What do you mean by dealing 100% of allowed damage? Do you mean anyone can do this given enough time, or that it is very easy for most frames to do this in one attack?

High stats don't restrict that kind of design. Some out liers with much higher stats then the majority do (as well as other designs). The main problem is balance. If you design a  boss that takes the majority a minute to kill the out liers will kill it in seconds and ignore all the mechanics. If you design a boss the out liers take a minute to kill the majority will take an hour and be overwhelmed by the mechanics.

whatever amount of Damage you are allowed to do in the current stage of a Boss since Bosses usually go full apathetic and rely on Phases&Timers.

you literally just proved my point, and also did exactly what i said games shouldn't do, which is make Bosses that are just an XL Enemy. if a 'Boss' is just a Health Bar, it isn't a Boss. if you want to have a Combat focused Boss, well, the Boss would have to actually partake in Combat instead of just wasting time to make a Mission take longer without much of any... well... Gameplay benefit from it.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

3 hours ago, kwlingo said:

This thread is for those who still want self-damage.

Can't I be happy if I want to nuke my team so I can be the first to cross the finish line? lol

Vex Chromas, Assimilate Nyxs, and Vasca kitties weep softly with the setting sun.

[TARINunit9]

23 hours ago, Diavoros said:

There is literally one reason of why the self-damage removal could be detrimental to some players and that is those who use Chroma in Eidolon runs as they wont be able to build up vex armor as fast. 

Speaking as a Chroma I have no idea what this "strat" is or why my fellow Chromas are crying about it. As soon as Gary spawns, my Vex Armor is pretty much maxed out just from all his laser soam

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

whatever amount of Damage you are allowed to do in the current stage of a Boss since Bosses usually go full apathetic and rely on Phases&Timers.

you literally just proved my point, and also did exactly what i said games shouldn't do, which is make Bosses that are just an XL Enemy. if a 'Boss' is just a Health Bar, it isn't a Boss. if you want to have a Combat focused Boss, well, the Boss would have to actually partake in Combat instead of just wasting time to make a Mission take longer without much of any... well... Gameplay benefit from it.

But were you talking about dealing that damage all in one go or spaced over time?

How is a boss partaking in combat if it dies in the first seconds of the encounter?

I suspect this is a fairly pointless conversation. We seem to be completely misundestanding each other.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I guess many tenno don't have toxin lich. Rad procs galour.

[Cubewano]

11 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Sooo, I was originally giving my two cents on the topic at hand and anticipating answers that we both know (don't be naive), were coming.

And yet your sentiments aren't to be seen, just people correcting you on them. Best to stave off putting words in others peoples mouths unless you are fully able to appreciate and research their stances before hand. If you want to have a fair and proper debate address the people in the thread, not the fictitious boogeymen in your mind. 

 

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

16 hours ago, Aldain said:

Self damage can rot in the same dumpster as the unavoidable Lich backbreaker revive tax.

I don't care what anyone says, anything that kills or can kill a player instantly for reasons that outside of a players control or ability to predict (allies running in front of you and RNG Requiems respectively) deserves to die a brutal Doom-level death.

This. 

Between enemies spawning directly in front of you, teammates spawning in front of you, teammates suddenly moving in front of you (including specters), "git good" is not a viable answer. The only way to never blow yourself up was either a) use revenant or b) not use self damage weapons. 

 

And I dont see anybody talking about how inconsistent what is and isnt self damage is. Looking at you, staticor. 

 

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

14 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

This is the known as 'moving the goalposts'. Arguments that, in order:

1) A frame playstyle greatly benefits in reliability from being able to self-damage

2) It is very possible for players to not blow themselves up (if they care to master this ability) and that some people enjoy the feeling of danger and mastery involved

3) A historic precedent exists that shows removal of self-damage can have enormously terrible consequences for balance, game health and inter-competitive build flexibility

All give fair arguable reasons why the game would be worse for removing or better by keeping. Just because you wish to disagree with the outcome does not mean these reasons do not exist.

You should also be careful to not misrepresent the second reason as "you all need to get good". There is a difference between insisting others change (incidentally, removing the self-damage risk playstyle is exactly this) and in simply stating that it is a possible result, whether any individual chooses to or not - and it's fine if they don't because there's plenty of other options to better suit them.

Late to the party here but uh

 

1) chroma is a one trick pony in a bad spot to begin with. It isnt fair or proper for DE to drag down like 40 other frames so chroma can have 1 clutch. What chroma really needs is a rework. 

2) it is also very possible to get blown up because of something that is 100% not your fault, such as an enemy spawning in front of you or a teammate deciding they need to bullet jump in front of you at exactly the wrong instant. Some people enjoy being able to use a weapon without feeling like they're going to be randomly killed by something beyond their control. 

3) I dont think you get to bring up balance. If it was so easy to avoid blowing yourself up, then self damage shouldnt also be considered a significant con. Seems like you want to have it both ways. 

 

But if balance becomes an issue because indiscriminate aoe spam becomes too prevalent they can nerf those weapons.  The other points are just subjective opinions. 

[Fallen77]

Il y a 3 heures, Cubewano a dit :

And yet your sentiments aren't to be seen, just people correcting you on them. Best to stave off putting words in others peoples mouths unless you are fully able to appreciate and research their stances before hand. If you want to have a fair and proper debate address the people in the thread, not the fictitious boogeymen in your mind. 

 

 

I'm trully impressed by your 3 men echo chamber. And funny, as you say that the next guy arrives.

Il y a 14 heures, TheLexiConArtist a dit :

3 - The Tonkor and Simulor Meta days. If you thought the Catchmoon's usage stats were overbearing, you should have been there for that. I'd stake a bet it was significantly higher.

You insinuated those arguments simply don't count. Objectively they are all true. They might not have convinced your subjective opinion on the matter to sway, but facts are still facts.

 

If it's not skill to use these weapons, how is it that I avoid putting myself on my back with each and every shot fired from my Kulstar when I'm challenging myself to do so inside my Snowglobe radius?

It's not RNG at all. It's situational awareness and personal judgement. You choose to shoot nearby possible obstructions, you judged that possible risk and deemed it safe enough to try. So you get it wrong sometimes. To those of us who like the gameplay, that's an accepted risk. We laugh it off. We accept our failing. We move on and strive to not do it again.

That said, we've all spoken many times about allied collision and how it applies to more things than just self-damage. Weapons which don't just dumbfire don't kill you, but you've still been obstructed by the collision. Weapons with no self-damage still have their bullets and projectiles eaten by allies. It is not a self-damage problem. Self-damage from dumbfired explosives is just a symptom and therefore is not what needs to change to treat the cause.

But sure, you get to be greedy for less than 10% of weapons at the cost of others' entire playstyle that doesn't affect you. Not even squadmates who drop themselves, since you don't have to pick them up. Seems legit.

If you are just going to ignore the fact that the many elements I already listed are 100% impossible to predict, and again ignore entirely that one-shotting yourself on a single missclick in a fast pace horde shooter is ludicrous, I can't do anything for you, you're just too far into denial.

[(PSN)Darkrya]

Maybe there could be a compromise. I'm in favor of both sides, as both have strong arguements (even if its overshadowed by people antagonizing each other).

Personally I like the new flinch/backflip mechanic, the way it's animated seems in theme, and is well designed, I would hate for it to disapear

14 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

 

At the same time I would also hate for self damage to be removed entirely, as it feels in line with how explosive weapons are handled.

14 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

 

I don't think its very skillful to avoid self damage, as its all about how far away you are from your target, and how small the corridors are then anything else. However, I believe it takes a certain amount of engagement in the game to avoid self damage, and I would hate the game to encourage mindlessness. 

I think we're all in agreement that explosive projectiles shouldn't interact with teammates, or companions (if I'm assuming that is the general consensus), as they remove control from the player, and we wouldn't want more of that considering all of the existing Rng in the game.

So this where the compromise comes in, maybe we could remove the highest tier of the stun, which is the ragdoll, as that mechanic removes any player agency from how long the stun lasts....and it looks pretty bad imo (although its pretty funny sometimes). Instead we could have the self-damage at the center of the explosion, a small zone, but instead of taking full damage we can take a dimminishing amount, equivalent to maybe 40% (the values can be adjusted however people want).Now I think before the damage should go into an effect there should be a small period (0.5 seconds maybe) where you can react to that damage, thats where the backflip comes in, negating most if not all damage if reacted to correctly. I think if an enemy walks infront of you and catches that projectile, you should have enough time to avoid that damage, if you can't there's still that damage reduction as a contingency. I think for consistency it should show a timer on the top right when you can avoid that self-damage, and maybe if people decide to start back flipping and shooting at their feet to avoid the self-damage, maybe add a cool down for when the damage can be avoided. Now how self-damage works for Chroma maybe they should do a Rhino and prevent him from getting a bonus on self-damage, I mean Rhino is still growing strong even without that self damage.

 

I'm just spitballing here, all of this can come in many forms, but what I really want from people to see out of this post is to recognize there's always a solution, even under compromise, change doesn't have to be absolute, and I don't think any kind of reductionism helps towards that. I don't think its fair to say DE caved into a loud minority, or Elitists on their high horse don't like change, or Chroma players should just stop complaining about an exploit,or Whiteknights prevent civil discussion. And look I can understand you can't address every point, be empathetic to every ideology,  or even give a rats-ass to every persons opinion, but I think we can do more then just rock fight, we can give people the benifit of the doubt, discuss what they really mean, rather then assume they mean malice, I want us on the same team. But sometimes people just don't want to be on a team, people want different things, and sometimes they want exact opposite things, its perfectly fine to disagree, I don't think you need me to tell you that, but we are civil, we can come to understand each although we don't agree. Sometimes there are others who inspire conflict, antagonize each other, for a reason we cannot clearly see, in those situations you don't have to be mature, however I don't think you should match their level, patience is the only thing that could prevent you from tilting, and I encourage that.

I'm not trying to manipulate anyone, but I want to see more cooperative posts that go somewhere,and that hope seems selfish, narrow minded, snooty, naive, and ineffective, but I can only convince you one by one.

 

[Talinthis]

I for one will miss it. They are powerful and dangerous, the way it should be. You shouldnt be using them in tight spaces either.  They will definitely feel different after this change.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

If you are just going to ignore the fact that the many elements I already listed are 100% impossible to predict, and again ignore entirely that one-shotting yourself on a single missclick in a fast pace horde shooter is ludicrous, I can't do anything for you, you're just too far into denial.

I'm not ignoring the elements. They're just.. not impossible to predict. Arguably, even the risk of allies jumping in the path has an assessable element courtesy of the minimap showing locations. But I've agreed that might not be sufficient, and yet, the result is not the fault of self-damage, it's the fault of the allied collision which affects other things as well as self-damage.

 

3 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Late to the party here but uh

1) chroma is a one trick pony in a bad spot to begin with. It isnt fair or proper for DE to drag down like 40 other frames so chroma can have 1 clutch. What chroma really needs is a rework. 

2) it is also very possible to get blown up because of something that is 100% not your fault, such as an enemy spawning in front of you or a teammate deciding they need to bullet jump in front of you at exactly the wrong instant. Some people enjoy being able to use a weapon without feeling like they're going to be randomly killed by something beyond their control. 

3) I dont think you get to bring up balance. If it was so easy to avoid blowing yourself up, then self damage shouldnt also be considered a significant con. Seems like you want to have it both ways. 

But if balance becomes an issue because indiscriminate aoe spam becomes too prevalent they can nerf those weapons.  The other points are just subjective opinions. 

1) That's an opinion. The fact he currently benefits from self-damage is not an opinion. Certainly t's debatable whether that's an interaction worth preserving, but I was just including the objective part of it for the sake of completion.

2) Just because you don't want to admit fault, doesn't mean it can't be. The game gives you all the information necessary, whether you make the right judgement call on that information is not the game's fault. Allied collision is a separate factor which self-damage suffers from, but is not the root cause.

3) Why don't I get to bring up balance? Because you don't have an answer for it? Because you weren't there to experience when it happened before? If people are currently being oppressive with the Bramma, as I hear, by circumventing self-damage then removing self-damage wholesale is inviting far more problems than it stands to solve, while also removing an unintrusive playstyle niche. It's just not going to feel the same without actual danger on those shots. Staggers can be reduced away to insignificance via mods/abilities.

[MPonder]

I can't agree with "Our damage is so High" argument people use, I can agree with "Our damage is so high for current enemies we have", but I do agree that some top DPSers Warframes maybe need some changes. Damage is just a number, If they nerf everybody damage to 10 dps and give a boss with 100 HP, wouldn't be the same if we still do 3B DPS and they give us a boss of 30B HP.

12 hours ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

But were you talking about dealing that damage all in one go or spaced over time?

How is a boss partaking in combat if it dies in the first seconds of the encounter?

I suspect this is a fairly pointless conversation. We seem to be completely misundestanding each other.

By making them not dying so fast (without using static invunerable phases a lot). Plus you are blaming Chroma for??? You can do a lot fo Damage with a lot, a lot of other Warframes if you build them right. And there is the fact that Warframes abilities interact, but since Warframe has like no real Coop content, only Eidolons has some extent of Coop, people seems to not realize that.

Imagine there was a 8-man raid in Warframe with an actual good boss fight and this boss has ferrite armor. Then you put to DPS him a Rhino, A Mirage with Total Eclipse augment, A Volt (Shock Trooper + shilds), all them buffing each other, imagine how much damage is just coming from them. A Well Builded Chroma with a Rubico with a CC/CD/MS Riven is just the tip of Iceberg of how much damage we could actually deal in a boss fight in a real Coop content.

Chroma is tank, but that would be not problem because Warframe has also Support Warframes to keep people alive. Only full tanks that are kind useless (no aggro abilities) in Warframe.

Warframe need good boss fights, if you do max 3x3 Eidolons, you are just suffering, Aiming with all those lights and he moving, etc, etc, etc,  it is just a pain, 4x3 is bearable. It is more enjoyable and a little more difficult to do them efficient 5x3>, not to just kill them. But the Eidolons by themself, they hardly, hardly fight, they just walk way and do something every now and then. Too slow, too easy to simple kill them.

Liches = A complete joke of a boss, boring and easy, and I don't even use Chroma.

Profit-taker, lacks of a better fight, Coop Mechanics, trying to put difficutl with tons of mobs and some with CC.

Then, there are the other bosses that are just full of invunerable bullxit.

 

Warframe lacks a good boss fight with actual the need to Coop, and I'd be happy to have some party wipes mechanics too.

Edited March 3, 2020 by MPonder