Why even have staple avionics with the upcoming changes?

[Vit0Corleone]

With the avionics merge, and considering that all the staple avionics from lower houses drop like candy everywhere including on early Earth missions, is there even a point on them existing?

Might as well just bump the stats on the Railjacks and make it even more simple? /s

Sure, there's the "build diversity" argument, but there isn't a whole lot of diversity currently anyways ..

All my 424 bulkheads are now going to be top notch 😄

Hopefully DE will add new avionics so that any of this makes sense.

[Galuf]

Primed sentient fortitude.

[Oreades]

I'm just glad they're shifting away from pouting the drop tables with interior versions of a single mod. Instead of offering interesting variation through alternative mods with compelling reasons to use them 

[DrBorris]

27 minutes ago, Oreades said:

I'm just glad they're shifting away from pouting the drop tables with interior versions of a single mod. Instead of offering interesting variation through alternative mods with compelling reasons to use them 

Limited Avionics capacity made it so there was a compelling reason to use them. It had the potential to give far more build diversity than what we could ever get from traditional mods.

[0_The_F00l]

I am slightly disappointed that it is getting dumbed down. 

 

Feels like they are finally realising the folly of trying to copy games that actually know what they are intended to be though. 

Maybe we will have some reasonably ambitious updates going forward. 

And not something that tries to rip off eve and mordor games poorly. 

[SneakyErvin]

59 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

With the avionics merge, and considering that all the staple avionics from lower houses drop like candy everywhere including on early Earth missions, is there even a point on them existing?

The point is there since this can mean that the loot tables will be cleaned up and we might get other loot in RJ instead that covers more parts of the game so we'll have reasons to go back. Just because avionics get a merger it doesnt mean that the avionics will retain the highest possible drop rate. Whatever percentages on the drop tables they can spare will mean more spots for other things.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

1 minute ago, DrBorris said:

Limited Avionics capacity made it so there was a compelling reason to use them. It had the potential to give far more build diversity than what we could ever get from traditional mods.

Build diversity is a fleeting concept in Warframe. While I do see the value in different combinations & variants of avionics, the meta would've eventually crept into play & demolish build diversity for a more streamlined build. If this is the route they're going for, they'll have to compensate by increasing the avionics cap, or else the removal of avionic variants will be completely pointless. I can't say for sure what the best solution is, given my very distant nature towards Railjack.

[Vit0Corleone]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

The point is there since this can mean that the loot tables will be cleaned up and we might get other loot in RJ instead that covers more parts of the game so we'll have reasons to go back. Just because avionics get a merger it doesnt mean that the avionics will retain the highest possible drop rate. Whatever percentages on the drop tables they can spare will mean more spots for other things.

It may mean changes in loot tables, I asked about that previously, so far no feedback.

In any case, players will go for example from +zero hull to +max hull. There's no middle term anymore. And if DE wants to make life easier to new comers to Railjack, the drop changes need to be higher so they can get them without much effort.

If there's no middle term, and everyone will be using staple avionics, because they have to, and because they are easy to get, then that questions their own existence.

I do hope that in the future there will be more different avionics so we can buildcraft. But currently, that is not the case anymore.

[DrBorris]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Build diversity is a fleeting concept in Warframe. While I do see the value in different combinations & variants of avionics, the meta would've eventually crept into play & demolish build diversity for a more streamlined build. If this is the route they're going for, they'll have to compensate by increasing the avionics cap, or else the removal of avionic variants will be completely pointless. I can't say for sure what the best solution is, given my very distant nature towards Railjack.

Not everything is about the meta... Something will always be best, build diversity comes when the other options are close enough that they are viable.

[Oreades]

44 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Limited Avionics capacity made it so there was a compelling reason to use them. It had the potential to give far more build diversity than what we could ever get from traditional mods.

Was there? really?

Cause seems to me like the same reasons your using to justify their existence is still present in the form equipping mods sry I mean avionics that simply aren't fully upgraded with no need to pollute the drop tables with needless redundant fluff. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Oreades

[Teliko_Freedman]

inb4everyavionicneeds13-16drain

 

 

 

Reactors can't keep up.

[DrBorris]

34 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Was there? really?

Cause seems to me like the same reasons your using to justify their existence is still present in the form equipping mods sry I mean avionics that simply aren't fully upgraded with no need to pollute the drop tables with needless fluff. 

What are you talking about? Avionics capacity was the bottleneck for any build. It was impossible to fit every highest tier Avionic in a build thus you had to make trade-offs for some of the buffs you wanted on your Railjack. You want both defensive and offensive Avionics, but you can't have both maxed. Which one do you value more? It isn't an all or nothing system like mods. Modding has no such trade-offs, you forma your gun until it fits all the mods you want. The trade-off of limited mod slots is in both Mods and Avionics but limited capacity is a far stricter limitation in Avionics. Then having lower cost Avionics not be proportionally powerful to the cost/power of the high cost Avionics meant that putting together a build was like piecing together a puzzle. Creativity and build diversity come from restriction.

I'm not saying Avionics are perfect, the drop table dilution was a major problem. But you don't have to remove house variants to fix drop table dilution, there are other ways to fix that. Some Avionics power per capacity were also poorly balanced to not be very useful which hurts the potential of off-meta builds, again you can fix that without having to delete the whole system. The answer isn't always to just delete what's there and recall to a safe place.

Edited April 26, 2020 by DrBorris

[-TSA-warramssie]

 

.. those avionics were all designed without much love or any noticeable concept -  How do you tell them apart ? Yeah form over function I get it, but please...

   Now it may well be that all we get is more dumbdowning and some damage control in panic mode. 

   

Then again all these folks who applied for the new test server - they could actually save us, save this - who knows, but do not look at their credentials because then you might despair.

[Oreades]

3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

What are you talking about? Avionics capacity was the bottleneck for any build. It was impossible to fit every highest tier Avionic in a build thus you had to make trade-offs for some of the buffs you wanted on your Railjack. You want both defensive and offensive Avionics, but you can't have both maxed. Which one do you value more? It isn't an all or nothing system like mods. Modding has no such trade-offs, you forma your gun until it fits all the mods you want. The trade-off of limited mod slots is in both Mods and Avionics but limited capacity is a far stricter limitation in Avionics. Then having lower cost Avionics not be proportionally powerful to the cost/power of the high cost Avionics meant that putting together a build was like piecing together a puzzle. Creativity and build diversity come from restriction.

You say that like we don't have to make decisions with Modding. Last time I checked we don't get everything we want even tho we can usually fit 8 fully leveled mods into our builds. Tho I do have a few that don't use fully leveled mods and in some instances strait up don't have the capacity for anything I want so I just leave that slot blank. 

Honestly we've already seen the Avionics system play out, it's nothing new to Warframe. Go far enough back into the before times to when Warframe powers where actually mods that needed to fit into your build and ta-da. So far I can fit pretty much everything I want at the cost of Railjack powers (Tactical/Battle) and just look how well that turned out last time around. We're just reliving past mistakes. 

Then there is the assumption that we are always going to be stuck with a capacity bottleneck, I'd wager given time we're going to see more powerful reactors (or cash shop items/rare game drops Reactor/Catalyst style) functionally remove that. Not that it would remove the need to pick and choose our mods Avionics because we have a finite space in which to apply them. Tho even if the bottleneck remains there is no reason to have duplicate classes of mods when we can just not fully level them and have the same effect. You talk about puzzling, I think it takes more big brain for the player to realize that they don't need to fully level something than it does to just paint by numbers. 

Now to that end I would love to see some UI upgrades that would allow people to scale their fully leveled mods back instead of needing multiple instances of the mods but that's really more of a QoL issue. Tho that's been something we've been asking for for years now even for the base Modding system.

4 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I'm not saying Avionics are perfect, the drop table dilution was a major problem. But you don't have to remove house variants to fix drop table dilution, there are other ways to fix that. Some Avionics power per capacity were also poorly balanced to not be very useful which hurts the potential of off-meta builds, again you can fix that without having to delete the whole system. The answer isn't always to just delete what's there and recall to a safe place.

I am legitimately curious how you would propose to distill the drop tables without removing any of the redundant mods? 

As far as I see it removing them is 100% the correct course of action since players have the option to not fully level them which is functionally the same thing. Just without the redundant instances. The only thing we "lose" out on is some flavor text and some developer lore that essentially served no other purpose than to justify redundant mods existing.

Anyplace they can remove redundancy and foster actual progression over pure RNG is IMHO a good thing. 

[Hypernaut1]

6 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am slightly disappointed that it is getting dumbed down. 

 

Feels like they are finally realising the folly of trying to copy games that actually know what they are intended to be though. 

Maybe we will have some reasonably ambitious updates going forward. 

And not something that tries to rip off eve and mordor games poorly. 

Im disappointed that dumbing down things is the way to go. 

[DrivaMain]

51 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Im disappointed that dumbing down things is the way to go. 

Blame the complainers that Railjack is too hard or hostile to solo players (actually very easy to solo) and most of the complainers don’t like arcade space combat in the first place and will probably still refuse to play Railjack after the changes. Well there are some positives on “dumbing down” one of them is the drop tables are getting less diluted so we can see a higher bump in drop chances. Build Diversity isn’t completely loss because there’s Avionic capacities and forcing players to choose to use a non maxed version of the avionic to save capacity or a fully maxed out one that waste capacity but has higher stat.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

Hopefully they now increase reactor capacity again or allow some type of way to forma our railjacks.

The limited reactor capacity is what's really limiting build diversity, not the variation of avionics

[trst]

Basic progression is the reason to keep these types of Avionics around. It's the same reason mods like Serration and Vitality should exist as mods.

Plus it allows the option to intentionally forgo them for specific builds like leaving out Bulkhead to keep as much uptime on Last Stand as possible (if anyone wonders yes this is a viable strategy even in solo).

[ShortCat]

12 hours ago, DrBorris said:

What are you talking about? Avionics capacity was the bottleneck for any build. It was impossible to fit every highest tier Avionic in a build thus you had to make trade-offs for some of the buffs you wanted on your Railjack.

This is not a reason to implement several tiered avionics, because avionics themselves have lvls and you can just equip not maxed ones if you do not have enough capacity. I get this idea, but as mentioned, it is already accomplished by mod lvls, thus there is no need to bloat the whole system to achieve the same effect again.

[JohnKable]

23 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

This is not a reason to implement several tiered avionics, because avionics themselves have lvls and you can just equip not maxed ones if you do not have enough capacity. I get this idea, but as mentioned, it is already accomplished by mod lvls, thus there is no need to bloat the whole system to achieve the same effect again.

that is perfectly true. But i think some people might get frustrated by not being able to equip all maxed out avionics, not my problem anyways.

Overall is a good step forward since alot of the best, yet basic, avionics were locked behind ridiculous drop rates in missions that frankly become boring really fast.

i think we should look at the post-update railjack system as the base. Its intended to just grow and expand from there (hopefully) so as long as this new base works and its solid we whouldnt overthink it. And seing the changes should be really fine.

i honestly dont see how the valence thing is worthwhile tho, its probaly much easier to farm parts  until you get a nice roll rather than farming resources for building multiple parts and benefit from valence fusion. Unless you can actually go over the maximum bonuses from drops, but i dont think that's the case

[Vit0Corleone]

13 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

i honestly dont see how the valence thing is worthwhile tho, its probaly much easier to farm parts  until you get a nice roll rather than farming resources for building multiple parts and benefit from valence fusion. Unless you can actually go over the maximum bonuses from drops, but i dont think that's the case

It is worth it.

Taking myself as an example, and I assume many others, I've been chasing what would be for me the "god roll" of Vidar Reactors, a Mk3 with 100/100 capacity and flux and damage immunity perk. Not that this is really needed, but it's a nice goal to aim for.

I have collected a large amount of reactors while doing that, and 3 days ago, I got the closest one so far, with 97 capacity and 94 flux. Before that, I've was running for ages either a  100/46 or a 92/64 IIRC, depending on the circumstances.  This is after, likely, in the hundreds of hours playing Railjack since release, and for sure dozens since they changed reactor tiers.

I still don't have a 100/100 and the chances of that happening while at the same time getting the perk I want are ridiculous low - might as well try the lottery.

With valance transfer, I will get that done on day one just by fusing any of the other 8 Vidar MK3 reactors I currently have.

To add to that, in order to repair any of the reactors, currently it would take me about 3 missions to collect the necessary resources, which isn't really that grindy comparing with other stuff we have in game.

Since DE is going to be tripling the resource drops in mission, I assume that with the proposed changes it may just take a mission or two. Add to that the fact that Railjack will be considerably easier and dumb down and missions way faster to complete, and you're looking at maybe 10 minutes of play time to get the resources you need.

So, yeah, it's worth it.

It also makes the value of chasing top notch gear and the sense of accomplishment completely moot, since anyone can get that easily with barely any effort.

[JohnKable]

3 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

 

It also makes the value of chasing top notch gear and the sense of accomplishment completely moot, since anyone can get that easily with barely any effort.

yep thats my worry. I might be biased since i got a 100 capacity at my very first drop, but honestly i would go fine with a 93+. Having nothing to chase and just doing missions mindlessly for farming materials is just the Nth workaround on top of a system that is stupid at its core.

it would be more fair if it was standardized for everyone at least. Weapons dropping with 40% bonus and needing two fusions to reach 60%

Or being able to reach past the current max rolls (by just a few points) so everyone that took the time and effort to farm for good rolls will have the new maximum with just one or two fusions, where the ones that had low rolls might need more - and that would also help mitigating weapons feeling on the weak side in veil proxima

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

It may mean changes in loot tables, I asked about that previously, so far no feedback.

In any case, players will go for example from +zero hull to +max hull. There's no middle term anymore. And if DE wants to make life easier to new comers to Railjack, the drop changes need to be higher so they can get them without much effort.

If there's no middle term, and everyone will be using staple avionics, because they have to, and because they are easy to get, then that questions their own existence.

I do hope that in the future there will be more different avionics so we can buildcraft. But currently, that is not the case anymore.

You forget one thing. With a currently maxed Vidar core, you wont be able to slot all avionics as zetki versions at max rank. So the real question is what the new streamlined avionics will cost compared to the power they provide, if they will be zetki all the way through or not? If they simply bump all avionic to zetki quality and cost (though in some cases that would be a nerf) the system will solve the theory crafting on its own since it will kinda be like talent or skill point allocation in an rpg. We'll actually have to consider what we need, more offense, more defense, better speed or maneuverability and also the option to leave slots completely open (like now). We'll just have to see how they implement it.

It will be a pita though since avionics follow the mod system, so once a thing is ranked we cannot de-rank it.

[HoustonDragon]

18 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

With the avionics merge, and considering that all the staple avionics from lower houses drop like candy everywhere including on early Earth missions, is there even a point on them existing?

Might as well just bump the stats on the Railjacks and make it even more simple? /s

Sure, there's the "build diversity" argument, but there isn't a whole lot of diversity currently anyways ..

All my 424 bulkheads are now going to be top notch 😄

Hopefully DE will add new avionics so that any of this makes sense.

I'd honestly like for them to handle them like they do Mods in game. Either allow us to sell them for Dirac, or maybe combine 4 to reroll for a chance at a different one. There are definitely way too many in my inventory that are sitting there useless.

[Vit0Corleone]

Just now, HoustonDragon said:

I'd honestly like for them to handle them like they do Mods in game. Either allow us to sell them for Dirac, or maybe combine 4 to reroll for a chance at a different one. There are definitely way too many in my inventory that are sitting there useless.

You can scrap them for Dirac already