Discussion and Feedback on Hard Mode shown on devstream

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Avienas said:

Its a completely different damn`d story when it comes to adding unique drops. Because way too much butt hurt would likely exist for them to do MORE then just add levels to enemies and add some boosted modifiers, with likely them just simply tacking sortie 3 (level 100ish) modifiers to things like puzzles and what not. Expecting them to make a bunch of new stuff, especially if they plan to ship said thing out soon is just more of a expectancy of them wasting more time on making new crap then actually fixing the game.

It can either go as a dragon-key modifier which will get highly undermined cause people can unload 100k~several millions of damage with relative ease these days so even a 60%~80% damage dealt modifier for a boosted effect would mean little. Even if this would be the BETTER way to handle it cause: Too many stages exist already, with adding more is just going to make it even more stupid and it would either be stuck to farming nodes like hydron for public or having to purposely setup premade groups to do such things, more then likely farming resources most people already have millions of by now likely. Because it would just be effectively solo mode at that point.

Ultimately, i would not be amazed that D.E. decided to go with the hard mode-very hard mode idea because of the forced to stay at home due to corvid-19 preventing them being able to access necessary equipment for working on particular content, which to expect them to do a massive overhaul on a bunch of stages and effectively make a new version of NIGHTMARE STAGES, is kind of over-reaching on what they might be limited on being able to do on some ends. Especially when it can just be given a simple modifier design like how most people make hard-mode & very hard-mode difficulty modes & could then spend time fixing the various issues in the game that demand QoL & extensive bug fixing.

 

Plus lets be honest, until enemies get around to level 80, as long as you have a proper mid-end game build, you would likely rip apart anything with relative ease, with the so-called tag system made to simulate the enemies got 50 or 100 extra levels added to them, not outright cripple your dang legs/arms. Which sadly in its current state will likely just be them adding levels to a stage and spawning an popping up another stage like its nightmare/invasion/kuva-lich stages and calling it a day for the most part, plus lets be frocking honest again...

You literally can NEVER be a counter-productive part of a team when your a Excalibur throwing out blinds on enemies, a Vauban dispensing bastilles/vortexes everywhere, causing practically every enemy on the map to get turned into a giant ball of EZ kills, same with Nidus and similar situations with Khora. That or being a Trinity who is just keeping everyone with constant damage reduction and full heals and infinite energy going, MAYBE even a ember who just sets everything on fire, fully rips off armor with 1 or 2 fire blasts and nuke level scale nukes the crap outta every enemy cause EXOTHERMIC exists for spammable 4th skill nuke yeets & energy refunds. With similar stripping fiascos could be done with Mag & Hildryn. Lets not even forget about the majesty of one of the oldest frames, LOKI, who can just straight up run his irradiating disarm augment with long range & duration and just straight up force every enemy to start attacking eachother with most of them being disarmed of thar dang weapons.

Dont even think about bringing in corpus nullifiers or infested into the mix since the former is just a cheap cop-out honestly, because the point n case, is that practically almost every warframe in the game can in a mostly literal sense, render enemies of basically any level a non-threatening factor with relative ease, regardless if they are wielding squirt guns or particle railguns. So ultimately a hard mode & very hard mode are mostly rendered quite pointless besides acting as a way to start at a higher level for enemies, IF LOOT & AFFINITY actually properly dang scaled with enemy level, especially ROTATIONAL LOOT.

This isnt about expecting them to add anything, this is purely about expecting to get that which makes slightly higher level content interesting, which cant happen if you de-level instead of getting higher level enemies. No Nox on earth, no bombards either iirc, simpler puzzles for spy and so on. Those are the things a de-level wont solve and it requires nothing from DE to implement it since it comes with the levels and is already there. It takes less work than coming up with a tag system. And as I said, it also wont solve things like defense targets, which are also things that become more and more of something you need to pay attention to in higher level missions.

And what I mean by being counter productive is that at some point a de-leveled high end build will perform worse than a mid-tier build if the scaling is done to accomodate for increased difficulty that warrent a higher reward. And you'd also have a crap load of leechers that down level just for the sake of more loot, since lower geared players will be a safety net that can beat the content anyways. When you have increasing levels instead, that may not be such a surefire thing since people may try to tackles something that is a bit above them to test their strength, and you'd have enemies that are scaled better towards crucial objectives etc.

I mean any freakin player could scale-down and pop into hydron to have others level S#&$ for them even faster since the difficulty of the mode would still be the same when it comes to the enemies versus the objective. However if you suddenly jump into a +100 hydron for that same increased reward you suddenly face enemies that put down far more hurt on the objective aswell. Or imagine down-scaling to farm excav on earth with an extra bonus, same deal there, the mobs scale so poorly versus the objectives since the mission is so low. It is bad enough when high geared players leech on high geared players in hydron, no need to have high geared players leeching lowbie planets for higher rewards also. So down-scaling wont work since there are too many outside factors that arent based on the player strength.

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, Krankbert said:

That's not what power creep means.

Actually it is exactly what power creep means.

I'm honestly curious what you think it means.

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, (PS4)One_Angry_Goose said:

I agree to a point. But, here’s the thing: hard mode as it looks right now is, like most other content, not worth it. Why bother playing it if you’re just going to get some decorations that rot in the back of your orbiter? No, players who put in the most time and effort deserve some unique reward they can show off. 

But that's kind of my point, though. If you're asking why you should bother playing a harder mode, my answer is "you shouldn't." Ideologically, I believe that extremely high difficulty should be exclusively for people who want extremely high difficulty and no-one else. If a player doesn't see the difficulty itself as reward enough, then that player has no business playing "hard mode." The point here is specifically to NOT push people who are comfortable with their difficulty setting into "hard mode," because that's going to lead to complaints and an eventual watering-down of the mode, like what happened to Arbitrations. I feel it's acceptable that some modes will only appeal to a small percentage of the population and will otherwise see very little play. That's what allows them to have appeal for the people who do want them.

I'd also caution against equating "veteran" with "wants hard mode." I'm sitting on 2700 hours, MR28 and 2 items short of a full Profile. I consider myself a "veteran" at this point and I'm perfectly happy to just putter around level 60-80. "Hard mode" should not be seen as "catering to veterans" because that's a broad category. "Hard mode" should only ever be intended to appeal to hardcore players, power gamers, min-maxers and the like. If DE sell that as "the new end game," then they'd shoot themselves in the foot and almost guarantee that the mode will get abandoned, watered down or turn into controversy. Aiming content properly at the people it's intended to appeal to is important, and part of that is ensuring that people it ISN'T intended to appeal to don't have incentive to engage with it. If your goal is "flashy rewards that other players don't have," then what you're looking for is not a "hard mode." Rather, what you're looking for is an exclusive club with criteria set to match you and a few others not the broad population. Difficulty is a bad criteria for this.

With all of that said, I'm not opposed to prestige rewards. But again - I AM opposed to rewards designed to make other people "want" them. Gameplay designed to inspire jealousy is always bad. It belongs in Chinese P2W MMO and mobile clicker games. If you want rewards for a "hard mode," then I'm going to insist they be purely status symbols and of no other value. As I said - sigils, glyphs, titles and other "account decoration" which doesn't infringe on the general Fashionframe aspect of the game. Again, I'm fine with you having things to show your status - fair enough. I draw the line where people who don't care about the status symbol should also be expected to want those rewards.

Appearance is inherently subjective. Trying to attach objective value to cosmetic items is a fool's errand. At best you encourage people to adopt poor fashion, at worst you push people into gameplay which burns them out. In over two years with Warframe, I've never worn a single Syandana because I don't like the look of any of them. I've never found any of the Delux skins to look good at all, and I generally dislike even the default looks of most frames. It's why I've bought so many Graxx skins recently. That doesn't mean Warframe is ugly, but it does mean that what some consider good-looking (a rat's nest of flappy fabric and a general art design that makes everyone look like ground beef) I consider unsightly. Let people have their cosmetics, let people look good, find other ways to reward "hard mode" players.

[Krankbert]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

Actually it is exactly what power creep means.

I'm honestly curious what you think it means.

I'm tired of quoting dictionaries in this forum. It's not what power creep means. Google the term and click on literally any link on the first page.

Actually, you don't even have to because Google will quote one for you.

Zitat

Noun[edit]

power creep (uncountable)

1. (collectible games, video games, role-playing games) The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/power_creep

Note the complete lack of "where there is no content to support it" in this and all other definitions.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Krankbert

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Krankbert said:

I'm tired of quoting dictionaries in this forum. It's not what power creep means.

It is what power creep means when talking about these types of games. It has other definitions in card games, P&P rpgs and so on. But here in a looter shooter/arpg it is when we obtain options for more power when it isnt needed or no new content is released to support or counter it.

Adding +100 enemy levels is not power creep, it is an attempt to counter the power creep of the game. It still wont solve it because +100 levels isnt enough to cover the power that has crept up over the years.

Power creep we've seen recently in items would be rolling guard, adaptation, umbra mods and umbra forma. Changes to the game have also been made that fuels our power creep further, as in the S curve when we really didnt need it at that time since our power is already well beyond it for "normal" mission lengths. Rework of viral and statuses overall also further fueled the power creep of the game since it is extra strength we dont actually need.

They've also done some thing to reduce the power creep, like toning down BR, CO and several other mods. It just hasnt really solved anything in the more "normal" parts of the game, it really only effected the absurdly long endless runs.

[Krankbert]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

It is what power creep means when talking about these types of games. It has other definitions in card games, P&P rpgs and so on. But here in a looter shooter/arpg it is when we obtain options for more power when it isnt needed or no new content is released to support or counter it.

Literally any link, any link at all, will support the definition I posted, and there are none that support yours.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Krankbert

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Krankbert said:

Literally any link, any link at all.

I saw your link and it is a very broad and innacurate description, also without a source. It for instance only mentions units or abilities, completely neglecting items, character progression etc. According to that wiki we have no power creep here since we have no "more powerful units or abilities", our power comes from item drops.

Just as the wiki states it leaves older ones (units and abilities) underpowered. Which if you transition it to a game where we dont replace powers or get new units to take the place of old ones, it could just as well say "making old content trivial". We have no direct upgrade system here, most things are side grades, including weapons and mods. So the lack of content to use our power in is the only thing that actually makes us see power creep.

The definitions in the wiki are correct for games where those things can apply, but those are very specific games.

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

I saw your link and

Did you also see the part where I invited you to google the term and click on literally any link?

  

  

vor 4 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

We have no direct upgrade system here, most things are side grades, including weapons and mods.

 

Yeah, right. Just sidegrades, because every weapon is equal in Warframe. Sorry, this is getting too dumb. This is just another instance of "I feel this is bad, therefore it can't apply to my perfect Warframe"-fanboyism and the mental gymnastics that go with it.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Krankbert

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Krankbert said:

Did you also see the part where I invited you to google the term and click on literally any link?

No link is accurate enough to cover all games. It doesnt matter if it is online or in a physical dictionairy. All descriptions are very barebones or non-exsistant (physical dictionaries). So there isnt one singular defined term that applies to all types of games (physical and video) nor all genres and sub-genres. There is a reason why the wiki entry lacks a source, because there is no scientific definition of it yet.

It should have also been a dead givaway when the wiki definition starts with a "1." and then having no "2.". 

But it is afterall a wiki, so...

[Krankbert]

  

vor 11 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

No link is accurate enough to cover all games. (...)

It should have also been a dead givaway when the wiki definition starts with a "1." and then having no "2.". 

But it is afterall a wiki, so...

Sure. That's why every single link agrees with me and disagrees with you - because no link is accurate enough and your precious Warframe needs to have its own special definition of a common gaming term that is different from the one definition used for every single other game.

As for the "dead giveaway" - that's just embarassing.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Krankbert

[Midas]

10 hours ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

i personally dont care what i look like, i dont feel the need to show off, this is where our views change.
 

You see it as showing off, I see it as self accomplishment for myself. I could care less what others feel. Rewards come to those who play effectively/efficiently/and coordinately! (Although not really for the last one via Warframe). I do agree with you stating that for Arbitrations (hence the millions of Kuva and Endo I mention).

[5p33dy_01]

wow.. ok.. this move/merge just took literally every post out of context.
 

8 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

This question has been resolved years ago. Nova's 4 does not prevent desecrate from working! Nekros and Nova work fine together 🙂

ok, maybe it does work, enemies were spread out too much for me to notice...
even if they do work together, the slow just makes it annoying and skewers the spawns, since everyone is running around to find something to kill.

also what degree does it work?,
e.g desecrate has a process time (3 corpses per second), 1-3 enemy may work, but how about 10-15 roughly 2-3sec apart?,
or when you backtrack to where your squad killed enemies 10sec ago, there is no corpses, and corpses have 15sec to disapear (excluding infested).

unless it works on an invisible mechanic where it retains their corpse in an invisible state for the full duration of 15sec that nekros desecrate can still apply, it wont work as effectively as without Nova's 4.
its one thing to say something works, its a whole different story when used in practice.

8 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I don't really understand this part. Of course I can control the power I have by removing mods, not using operator, etc... "you will never be happy"...? I'm already happy with the game! I find PvE pretty mindless but still entertaining, and I play conclave when I want something exciting and challenging. No complaints from me (except conclave bugs and exploits that are neglected) but DE said they want to make challenge in PvE also, so I made a suggestion. I don't understand what logic led you to "always blame someone/something else." I can speak only for myself, but when I get beaten in conclave, for example, I tend to think "Ah, I need to work on my aim!" So clearly the mentality you suggest is prevalent does not apply to me, and I'm not special in any way so I suspect it doesn't apply to most!

you seemed a little more intellegent than the vast majority of people i have seen on the these forums and others, which is also why i took the time to make a half decent response and go into a bit of detail.

that part was a little residual rant from another post i read before i saw that i missed responding to it in my initial post, i will explain why below.

most people seem to think the solution is to keep increasing enemy level, when its not, the game needs balance, or we will have level 6+ billion, which at some point they will see its not working, then they will start asking for increases in amounts, instead of 100 enemies spawning they must be 200, 300, 400, etc.
what are we left with?, level 99 trillion enemies and an entire map totally full of enemies, ok cool, that should solve it, but no, Saryn walks in, and people say we need even more enemies and bigger maps, because they cant kill anything when Saryn is in the mission.

do you see where this is going?
it really frustrates me to see how narrow minded people are.

where as your post was regarding taking away the power you have been given, which means you are being "responsible" with your power, 

8 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

for example, I tend to think "Ah, I need to work on my aim!" So clearly the mentality you suggest is prevalent does not apply to me, and I'm not special in any way so I suspect it doesn't apply to most!

this is not the mentality i have come across on ANY game forums, which means you ARE special in a way, and DOES apply to most.

even if you look at DE, they have dug themselves a hole by the constant increase in power (hello level 99 trillion enemies) (who could blame them, they are only doing what they THINK the community wants or needs), then they nerf it into the ground.
everyone has seen maiming strike mod or the various weapons in the past, you will see it again when they wack the bramma with that nerf hammer.
you end up with a disgruntled community, you must have seen all the people saying to leave the bramma alone in other topics, do you think they will be happy when it gets hit by that hammer?

the game has turned into a super fast super grind feast where everything is trivial but only takes time, not even action time, time that you are sitting around doing NOTHING, and that doesnt reward appropriately according to the grind you endure.

this may seem off topic and a different type of game, but it goes with my point.
look at Dota 2, im not sure if you've played it... 
literally every match you start at level 1 with no items and a small amount of starting gold, but the community is still huge, probably bigger than Warframe. why, because every match is entertaining, even when you have end game builds.
yes you can argue that its because its pvp, but thats not really the point,
the point is that it is still a challenge. the pvp aspect just keeps you on your toes.

bottom line is, my suggestion from my previous post allows for the community to manage their game play, it can be a walk in the park, or it can be extremely challenging, all based on YOUR choice, and rewarded accordingly.

really good suggestions have come and gone, yet the game remains broken, because developers or someone in management puts an entirely different twist on it, then they say "we did what you asked for".
 

8 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

This seems like a repeated paragraph with slightly different words 🙂

im sorry, i tend to sometimes repeat things in different ways, incase people dont understand me, which is usually the case.

also sorry for the long post 😄 

Edited May 11, 2020 by 5p33dy_01

[5p33dy_01]

32 minutes ago, Midas said:

You see it as showing off, I see it as self accomplishment for myself. I could care less what others feel. Rewards come to those who play effectively/efficiently/and coordinately! (Although not really for the last one via Warframe). I do agree with you stating that for Arbitrations (hence the millions of Kuva and Endo I mention).

some people do it for self accomplishment and others to show off.

yes, we dont really have coordination, unless its friends...

[xcrimsonlegendx]

You had me at goo & tumors.

[GreyZetsu]

I don't know if this sounds crazy but How about hard and ultra-hard be entire playthroughs. Where u start from the beginning but instead of the starter 4 warframes you have access to all your gears or get to pick one of each weapon, warframe, melee and so on. A bit like horizon zero dawn s New Game. The quests are plus 50  or plus 100 level enemies as suggested...this would be how u unlock them. New players could also have access higher dificulty.

[Sevek7]

2 hours ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

wow.. ok.. this move/merge just took literally every post out of context.
 

ok, maybe it does work, enemies were spread out too much for me to notice...
even if they do work together, the slow just makes it annoying and skewers the spawns, since everyone is running around to find something to kill.

also what degree does it work?,
e.g desecrate has a process time (3 corpses per second), 1-3 enemy may work, but how about 10-15 roughly 2-3sec apart?,
or when you backtrack to where your squad killed enemies 10sec ago, there is no corpses, and corpses have 15sec to disapear (excluding infested).

unless it works on an invisible mechanic where it retains their corpse in an invisible state for the full duration of 15sec that nekros desecrate can still apply, it wont work as effectively as without Nova's 4.
its one thing to say something works, its a whole different story when used in practice.

you seemed a little more intellegent than the vast majority of people i have seen on the these forums and others, which is also why i took the time to make a half decent response and go into a bit of detail.

that part was a little residual rant from another post i read before i saw that i missed responding to it in my initial post, i will explain why below.

most people seem to think the solution is to keep increasing enemy level, when its not, the game needs balance, or we will have level 6+ billion, which at some point they will see its not working, then they will start asking for increases in amounts, instead of 100 enemies spawning they must be 200, 300, 400, etc.
what are we left with?, level 99 trillion enemies and an entire map totally full of enemies, ok cool, that should solve it, but no, Saryn walks in, and people say we need even more enemies and bigger maps, because they cant kill anything when Saryn is in the mission.

do you see where this is going?
it really frustrates me to see how narrow minded people are.

where as your post was regarding taking away the power you have been given, which means you are being "responsible" with your power, 

this is not the mentality i have come across on ANY game forums, which means you ARE special in a way, and DOES apply to most.

even if you look at DE, they have dug themselves a hole by the constant increase in power (hello level 99 trillion enemies) (who could blame them, they are only doing what they THINK the community wants or needs), then they nerf it into the ground.
everyone has seen maiming strike mod or the various weapons in the past, you will see it again when they wack the bramma with that nerf hammer.
you end up with a disgruntled community, you must have seen all the people saying to leave the bramma alone in other topics, do you think they will be happy when it gets hit by that hammer?

the game has turned into a super fast super grind feast where everything is trivial but only takes time, not even action time, time that you are sitting around doing NOTHING, and that doesnt reward appropriately according to the grind you endure.

this may seem off topic and a different type of game, but it goes with my point.
look at Dota 2, im not sure if you've played it... 
literally every match you start at level 1 with no items and a small amount of starting gold, but the community is still huge, probably bigger than Warframe. why, because every match is entertaining, even when you have end game builds.
yes you can argue that its because its pvp, but thats not really the point,
the point is that it is still a challenge. the pvp aspect just keeps you on your toes.

bottom line is, my suggestion from my previous post allows for the community to manage their game play, it can be a walk in the park, or it can be extremely challenging, all based on YOUR choice, and rewarded accordingly.

really good suggestions have come and gone, yet the game remains broken, because developers or someone in management puts an entirely different twist on it, then they say "we did what you asked for".
 

im sorry, i tend to sometimes repeat things in different ways, incase people dont understand me, which is usually the case.

also sorry for the long post 😄 

Yeah I'm with you on all of this. But I think the enemies are currently capped to level 9999 (perhaps a little higher for eximus if I remember correctly). So there are no level trillion enemies as you suggest... yet 😉 

But you're right, we have revenant for example who takes no damage and instakills an enemy regardless of its level. I can't begin to fathom how one can start balancing the game with that available!

I agree that Bramma should be nerfed, and generally think that the highest damage weapons should also be the ones requiring the most skill to use. I made a thread to that effect maybe 6 months ago and people were not happy... 

I don't really expect that DE will take our suggestions into consideration here with Hard Mode (as you pointed out they already merged all of the separate suggestions into a single thread so they're impossible for us to discuss properly!), but my fingers are crossed that they add something to make it more interesting than just increasing the level. 

Time will tell 🙂 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Sevek7
Grammar ~

[DrivaMain]

I want it, but reward it by progressing through the missions. DO NOT PUT IT ON THE ROTATION REWARD TABLE. After you got it, it will be pointless if you got another one from the rotation.

[5p33dy_01]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

Yeah I'm with you on all of this. But I think the enemies are currently capped to level 9999 (perhaps a little higher for eximus if I remember correctly). So there are no level trillion enemies as you suggest... yet 😉 

cap or no cap, it still isnt the way to go.
if there is no cap, people will still complain its the same thing with the same rewards but tougher enemies. i have already seen this.
if there is a cap, when we get to it, people will complain about that and request it get increased, i have seen it happen in Diablo 3, it uses caps, and the closer people get to them, the more they complain in the forums.

another thing needed is scaling drops... but they dont want that for some reason ( maybe too much encouragement for players to spend more time in missions)

at least with my suggestion these would have a work-around.

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

But you're right, we have revenant for example who takes no damage and instakills an enemy regardless of its level. I can't begin to fathom how one can start balancing the game with that available!

well.. you begin by removing that 😛 

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

I agree that Bramma should be nerfed, and generally think that the highest damage weapons should also be the ones requiring the most skill to use. I made a thread to that effect maybe 6 months ago and people were not happy... 

its not just the bramma, the kuva nukor is ridiculous too, i can melt the same enemies the bramma can, maybe even faster, but the AOE on the bramma is just insane.
surely one of the staff could throw in a level 150 heavy gunner and wack it with some basic mods and then "end game" mods equiped to see the result, if they like it, it gets a pass and introduced into the game, if they dont, it gets a second look at balancing it.

nobody wants their power taken away, which is one of the reasons people dont like it when you say "unequip your mods".
its also one of the reasons both, your suggestion and that video about a tower-heist sort of mode will still have a negative impact on the community.

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

I don't really expect that DE will take our suggestions into consideration here with Hard Mode (as you pointed out they already merged all of the separate suggestions into a single thread so they're impossible for us to discuss properly!), but my fingers are crossed that they add something to make it more interesting than just increasing the level. 

Time will tell 🙂 

dont worry, it wont be just an increase in level... knowing them, eidolons, profit-taker, ropalolyst, you can expect some kind of tedious strategy to complete it, while still maintaining the trivial aspect, just running around doing various unnecessary tasks.

if they really cared about the communities input in the development, they would have at least someone sitting on the forums and helping the community with what will and wont be done.

is it too much effort to test weapons before release, too much to ask for?, probably is.
is asking for a little feedback based on our feedback, too much to ask for?, probably is.

Edited May 11, 2020 by 5p33dy_01

[Ulvra]

9 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

But that's kind of my point, though. If you're asking why you should bother playing a harder mode, my answer is "you shouldn't." Ideologically, I believe that extremely high difficulty should be exclusively for people who want extremely high difficulty and no-one else. If a player doesn't see the difficulty itself as reward enough, then that player has no business playing "hard mode." The point here is specifically to NOT push people who are comfortable with their difficulty setting into "hard mode," because that's going to lead to complaints and an eventual watering-down of the mode, like what happened to Arbitrations. I feel it's acceptable that some modes will only appeal to a small percentage of the population and will otherwise see very little play. That's what allows them to have appeal for the people who do want them.

Quite agree here. I enjoy a challenge, but not a lot of the endless modes so arbitrations are nothing but a chore that needs to be ground to get the shinies that was frustratingly locked behind it. As a result, I hardly ever bother to get into it because of having to dedicate an hour to the pursuit to even have a chance, instead of leaving it as an optional mode that I could simply play for fun I end up not playing at all, because I feel forced to overdose when I do. Hard content is good to have, but leave it as its own reward, that is why I would be happy to see the hard mode nodes, because then I can get to play any part of the game at a more challenging level without having to play yet another bloody hour of survival grinding. Regular rewards for the mission, nothing fancy. A little personal trophy in the orbiter doesn't hurt and is nice to have, but really would prefer to keep it at that.

In reference to the original post, I hesitate to use the term end-game for anything because what is such depends entirely on the person and is better defined there than imposed by DE. Give options and leave it at that. As I gathered from the announcement it's not meant as end-game but rather as a shortcut to desired challenge plus an access to it where it previously could not be found (non-endless missions) and as a refresher for older content for players who have already powered up to breeze through anything that isn't arbitrarily inflated.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Ulvra

[5p33dy_01]

On 2020-05-11 at 6:30 AM, GreyZetsu said:

I don't know if this sounds crazy but How about hard and ultra-hard be entire playthroughs. Where u start from the beginning but instead of the starter 4 warframes you have access to all your gears or get to pick one of each weapon, warframe, melee and so on. A bit like horizon zero dawn s New Game. The quests are plus 50  or plus 100 level enemies as suggested...this would be how u unlock them. New players could also have access higher dificulty.

just sit and think about this for a moment.

you are saying the same thing as other people, "just increase level of enemies".... that is not a solution, it is a band-aid for a much greater problem.

here is why

"most people seem to think the solution is to keep increasing enemy level, when its not, the game needs balance, or we will have level 6+ billion, which at some point they will see its not working, then they will start asking for increases in amounts, instead of 100 enemies spawning they must be 200, 300, 400, etc.
what are we left with?, level 99 trillion enemies and an entire map totally full of enemies, ok cool, that should solve it, but no, Saryn walks in, and people say we need even more enemies and bigger maps, because they cant kill anything when Saryn is in the mission.

do you see where this is going?"

taking your exact idea... i have now completed the entire playthrough 50 times and im now waiting for DE to add number 51, then 52, then 53 and so on.

you dont fix a problem by throwing a band-aid on it.
you fix a problem by looking at the cause, then you fix the cause.

the cause is not enemy levels, it is the lack of features to manage the enemies.

a metaphor
if your pc turns off every time you turn your lights on, is your solution to just keep the lights off, every time you want to use your pc?
or do you look for what might be causing that problem and then resolving it?
 

read this, it may give you a better understanding of what is actually needed, in terms of "hard mode"

click here for the link to my suggestion

Edited May 13, 2020 by 5p33dy_01

[Scar.brother.help.me]

+50 lvls and +100 lvls is not something hardcore, it can be done easily with an average gear, what are you talking about? This is just a bit more difficult than Sorties but with no special conditions (low energy, enemy armor, resistances, etc). Why not have at least cool cosmetic rewards after beating each node of the planet? (may be fight a stronger specter at junctions to receive it)

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, Krankbert said:

  

Sure. That's why every single link agrees with me and disagrees with you - because no link is accurate enough and your precious Warframe needs to have its own special definition of a common gaming term that is different from the one definition used for every single other game.

As for the "dead giveaway" - that's just embarassing.

None of them are actual "scientific" definitions though. Some also apply only to P&P rpgs for instance and cannot be applied to any video game even. Just as most of them cannot apply properly to neither PvP games such as Overwatch or physical/video versions of CCG's. Overwatch for instance has a whole different meaning of power creep, since power creep in that game shifts between seasons based on the balance of the heroes. Which is why certain seasons saw things such as leap metas, tank metas and so on because the powers of heroes with those abilities or from those classes had a massive power increase at the time versus dps for instance. Blizzard has later changed that by limiting it to a 2/2/2 setup i.e only 2 of each class type. That keeps the power creep more in check since you can no longer abandon the use of any class type.

As I said, all games have a different meaning of what power creep is. There is also a big difference between solo and multiplayer games. This is also not about Warframe, this is about the genre as a whole and even includes mmorpgs which WF isnt, but it and other online (a)rpg games still share the gameplay structure of those when it comes to rewards and content.

The term you provided cannot apply to every single game.

[Madway7]

5 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I want it, but reward it by progressing through the missions. DO NOT PUT IT ON THE ROTATION REWARD TABLE. After you got it, it will be pointless if you got another one from the rotation.

Yes, and sadly I'm not sure if DE has realized this or not considering that they still haven't taken out the ephemera and all the mods out of the arbitration reward pools

 

Mods are also a bad reward to gate behind drop tables, since in most cases you'll only want 1.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Madway7

[DrivaMain]

42 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

Mods are also a bad reward to gate behind drop tables, since in most cases you'll only want 1.

Mods I can tolerate because I can sell them to others. But cosmetics? Unless you made them tradable, hardmode will leave a sour taste in my mouth until they take it out.

[(XBOX)l Saminator l]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

Mods I can tolerate because I can sell them to others. But cosmetics? Unless you made them tradable, hardmode will leave a sour taste in my mouth until they take it out.

Agreed. If it's a cosmetic you earn once from completing all nodes on hard or ultra hard, then that's fine. 

But please don't let cosmetics drop as a mission reward. It will be just like Seeding Step Ephemera from Arbitrations, where if you get it but already have it, you basically got a useless reward. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by (XB1)l Saminator l