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Please do something about khora's whipclaw


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3 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

It's not as simple as that.

So... what about the other frames I mentioned?

Baruuk can literally just... stand there... with his 1 active, or cast his 2 and 3 if he feels like being more involved, before hitting melee (a single button) repeatedly. Equinox (especially double-nox) can just stand there passively building the numbers to release 4, she can even use the bleeds from her own 4 to speed up the building of her next 4 if there are survivors. And even Ember can just stand there pressing 4 and then 3 if her 2 is active..

And to play devil's advocate on this;

Unless you're in a very specific mission type, like ESO, Saryn is self-limiting by not having the range to re-infect enemies without involvement from Toxic Lash, which is not only line-of-sight, it's also self-aim based.

My point being, there's plenty of frames as bad as Khora, you can argue the relative position of them all you like to say one is worse or better than another. What you have to admit is that because there's so many there's absolutely no way that DE is just going to nerf them all at once, in fact they may even bring in more over time. The upcoming community frame may have a non-LoS radial damage move that scales up too. It's entirely possible. And so picking one to be the sacrificial lamb for the once-a-year round of nuke nerfing is complete BS.

DE leaves mechanics in the game for years before they become the next 'problem' mechanic, and as we've seen (with things like that 'fix' they did on Khora's healing of objectives for an event, one they had to apologise for and back-pedal so hard on they created healing effects for fifteen other frames that didn't have them on objectives before, and the actual Statistics based nerfs they doled out to the Catchmoon and Bramma due to a directly analytical nature of these weapons being used to the exclusion of all others by the player base with access to them) DE just follows their own internal stats and feelings rather than the community when it comes to nerfs.

What could be next? Sure, maybe Whipclaw.

One thing I've said with all abilities like Whipclaw is that they should have stats that make the ability work at base, they should absolutely never be affected by Melee mods. Whether it starts off weak and scales up its own numbers via combo counter, or whether it's un-affected by that and has a strong combo with the other abilities in the frame's kit, one of those solutions. Does that mean the ability gets a nerf? .... Maybe? The change to ability numbers for damage, instead of melee modding, or the change to ability combo instead of combo counter may just mean that the numbers are scaled down a little to start with. But the result may be that you can work the ability in exactly the same mechanical play style and still kill to approximately the same level.

Whatever happens. It won't be to the satisfaction of any of the players, like yourself, that are calling for broader removal of 'nuke' frames.

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Imagine playing Warframe and not wanting to use abilities of the thing this game is named after: Warframe. 

Imagine not getting your way, and yet still staying around and continuing to try to poison the well. 

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Why? She isn't doing anything that other nukeframes can't do, and doing so sustainably requires some gear choices. If anything, it was a shame for Khora up until now that she didn't have the xoris to use to make her claw a more fun skill to maintain. It's fun having a warframe who is actually effective at using their 1 for damage.

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2 hours ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

It's fun having a warframe who is actually effective at using their 1 for damage.

I wanna stress this again, because the only other warframe that is even vaguely effective at this is Nidus.

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49 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

I wanna stress this again, because the only other warframe that is even vaguely effective at this is Nidus.

And Gara perhaps?

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On 2020-06-17 at 7:14 PM, -Xtharvind- said:

Nowadays, there are not many weapons and warframe abilities that can bypass the obstacle; for example, exodia contagion (nerfted, remember nukong?), saryn, banshee, and khora's whip claw and etc.

Nerf all Nukers

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Whipclaw? Are you kidding me.. her strangledome downright CRIPPLES missions in tight tilesets making enemies downright unhittable, and you complain about whipclaw?

This game is definitely going down the drain, and it's not gonna be DE who does it. 

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41 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Whipclaw? Are you kidding me.. her strangledome downright CRIPPLES missions in tight tilesets making enemies downright unhittable, and you complain about whipclaw?

This game is definitely going down the drain, and it's not gonna be DE who does it. 

Khora can easily kill all enemies in her dome. When you have to shoot at enemies stuck in dome it's because the Khora player is trash.

If DE nerfs her damage then Khora will be left as a cc frame without the ability to kill the enemies flailing around in her dome and stuck behind walls. She will be a worthless frame that will only be able to annoy squad mates and add nothing to the team. 

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vor 16 Minuten schrieb Berzerkules:

Khora can easily kill all enemies in her dome. When you have to shoot at enemies stuck in dome it's because the Khora player is trash.

If DE nerfs her damage then Khora will be left as a cc frame without the ability to kill the enemies flailing around in her dome and stuck behind walls. She will be a worthless frame that will only be able to annoy squad mates and add nothing to the team. 

Your last words are exactly my point, almost every khora I've met since her release does nothing but put down her dome and completely #*!% me in the majority of tilesets, hence I said it is indeed an issue.

And now I go to the forums and people cry about whipclaw, like, give me a break. 

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Am 19.6.2020 um 01:20 schrieb Pizzarugi:

I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

All of this is bad and should be nerfed. The difference between most of the things you listed and nuke frames plus spin2win is that they trivialize the game for everyone on the team and not just the player using them. Loki players make the game easier for themselves, same goes with hyper tank frames like Revenant. Meanwhile if you don't play these frames and end up teaming up with a Saryn or Khora or Mesa or Equinox, they trivialize the game for you regardless if you wanted them to or not. Other people tanking or going invisible doesn't take away your experience of getting swarmed and/or shot at (probably more so if teammates use invisibility, because who else are they going to aggro on).

Nuke frames and spin2win melee cheese should be a higher priority.

Ah it's an "I don't like what other people use, mostly in pugs" issue so I'm gonna go ahead and discard any argument you've provided.

People really are special these days.

Play solo or with friends if it's such an issue to you what others play. And stop trying to ruin the fun for everyone just because you yourself don't like certain stuff.

Play solo and enjoy the 1 by 1 action that is going on there, the whole reason it exists.

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34 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Khora can easily kill all enemies in her dome. When you have to shoot at enemies stuck in dome it's because the Khora player is trash.

If DE nerfs her damage then Khora will be left as a cc frame without the ability to kill the enemies flailing around in her dome and stuck behind walls. She will be a worthless frame that will only be able to annoy squad mates and add nothing to the team. 

Or DE can fix Strangledome so enemies grabbed by it can be affected by abilities.

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16 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Ah it's an "I don't like what other people use, mostly in pugs" issue so I'm gonna go ahead and discard any argument you've provided.

People really are special these days.

Play solo or with friends if it's such an issue to you what others play. And stop trying to ruin the fun for everyone just because you yourself don't like certain stuff.

Play solo and enjoy the 1 by 1 action that is going on there, the whole reason it exists.

If enemy spawn rates weren't garbage and made missions like excavation or survival excruciating, believe me, I'd be playing solo more often. Shameless plug to address it.

And you can't play with friends if your friends have quit or don't play the game.

But yeah, find whatever excuse you want to dismiss a problem the game has so you can feel better about abusing it.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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vor 1 Minute schrieb Pizzarugi:

If enemy spawn rates weren't garbage and made missions like excavation or survival excruciating, believe me, I'd be playing solo more often.

And you can't play with friends if your friends have quit or don't play the game.

But yeah, find whatever excuse you want to dismiss a problem the game has so you can feel better about abusing it.

I'm a non meta player, just so you know, hence I got 5k mission time and still find fun and challenge, but I NEVER went ahead and complained about other people's playstyle, outside of khora's dome literally being able to make missions (survival) fail if "played wrong"

So no, I ain't someone abusing the game, but I'm also not someone dictating both DE and players "how" they should play.

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4 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

If enemy spawn rates weren't garbage and made missions like excavation or survival excruciating, believe me, I'd be playing solo more often. Shameless plug to address it.

And you can't play with friends if your friends have quit or don't play the game.

But yeah, find whatever excuse you want to dismiss a problem the game has so you can feel better about abusing it.

Speaking of enemy spawn rates... I went ahead and forma'd my Khora again. I needed to replace my second Madurai with a Naramon (or a Vazarin) so I could fit Overextended in place of Augur Reach. Guess where I ranked Khora? Sanctuary Onslaught.

I had all the same gear and 7/8 mods (no Accumulating Whipclaw). Now it could be due to intermediate ranked skill levels or something... but I was having trouble keeping the SO progress up toward the end with the same strategy. I think Sanctuary Onslaught has markedly reduced spawns compared to ESO? Anyway... I don't think it's due to missing Accumulating Whipclaw because I was red-hitting low level enemies for tens of thousands of Slash (with proc). I think it's due to reduced enemy spawns in normal Sanctuary Onslaught. Without these spawn-balls of enemies to hit with Whipclaw, Khora doesn't do so well anymore. And we see that in rounds 5 and 7 in my ESO run too. And anecdotally, I personally experience this in normal star chart missions. Her Whipclaw is just not very efficient (definitely not a "nuke") when there aren't clumps of enemies to dispatch. Normally the only way to make clumps of enemies is with her 4... unless you're in ESO!

Do you think Saryn or Volt or Equinox would have this problem in SO? Even if intermediately ranked? I just don't see it man. I really question your judgement about Whipclaw. It hits very hard yes, but it hits in a very focused area (unless there's a Strangledome to increase its AOE).

Now about Overextended... It does make Whipclaw feel more comfortable! But my ESO performance was about the same. Rounds 5 and 7 (all tiles were exactly same as in my video) were some of the more problematic tiles for Khora (some Grineer tile and Kuva Fortress). And that's Khora with more range. Round 7 went a little smoother because my Strangledome could grab more enemies owing to the extra range. But again, a real nuke frame like Saryn wouldn't have any problem on any tile in ESO.

What do you envision for ESO? Do you envision us using primaries or secondaries or melees? A mixture maybe? What if there was a primary that could clear 8 rounds of ESO? Would that be unacceptable to you? Because from what I read, you don't like overreliance on abilities. What about overreliance on gear?

If there was one or more primaries or secondaries or melees that could keep progress up in ESO, I imagine a player would really use just one of them. Like, for example, a powerful melee or secondary with Miter to destroy bubbles. I think you have a distorted perspective of Khora and if you don't already play her, I implore you to try her in a variety of content including ESO.

 

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39 minutes ago, nslay said:

Speaking of enemy spawn rates... I went ahead and forma'd my Khora again. I needed to replace my second Madurai with a Naramon (or a Vazarin) so I could fit Overextended in place of Augur Reach. Guess where I ranked Khora? Sanctuary Onslaught.

I had all the same gear and 7/8 mods (no Accumulating Whipclaw). Now it could be due to intermediate ranked skill levels or something... but I was having trouble keeping the SO progress up toward the end with the same strategy. I think Sanctuary Onslaught has markedly reduced spawns compared to ESO? Anyway... I don't think it's due to missing Accumulating Whipclaw because I was red-hitting low level enemies for tens of thousands of Slash (with proc). I think it's due to reduced enemy spawns in normal Sanctuary Onslaught. Without these spawn-balls of enemies to hit with Whipclaw, Khora doesn't do so well anymore. And we see that in rounds 5 and 7 in my ESO run too. And anecdotally, I personally experience this in normal star chart missions. Her Whipclaw is just not very efficient (definitely not a "nuke") when there aren't clumps of enemies to dispatch. Normally the only way to make clumps of enemies is with her 4... unless you're in ESO!

Do you think Saryn or Volt or Equinox would have this problem in SO? Even if intermediately ranked? I just don't see it man. I really question your judgement about Whipclaw. It hits very hard yes, but it hits in a very focused area (unless there's a Strangledome to increase its AOE).

Now about Overextended... It does make Whipclaw feel more comfortable! But my ESO performance was about the same. Rounds 5 and 7 (all tiles were exactly same as in my video) were some of the more problematic tiles for Khora (some Grineer tile and Kuva Fortress). And that's Khora with more range. Round 7 went a little smoother because my Strangledome could grab more enemies owing to the extra range. But again, a real nuke frame like Saryn wouldn't have any problem on any tile in ESO.

What do you envision for ESO? Do you envision us using primaries or secondaries or melees? A mixture maybe? What if there was a primary that could clear 8 rounds of ESO? Would that be unacceptable to you? Because from what I read, you don't like overreliance on abilities. What about overreliance on gear?

If there was one or more primaries or secondaries or melees that could keep progress up in ESO, I imagine a player would really use just one of them. Like, for example, a powerful melee or secondary with Miter to destroy bubbles. I think you have a distorted perspective of Khora and if you don't already play her, I implore you to try her in a variety of content including ESO.

 

I can simplify a lot of this by saying I envision ESO not requiring you play a nuke frame in order to make any actual progress. One of the biggest factors behind the nuke frame trend is that there's a mission that makes them just about mandatory.

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5 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I can simplify a lot of this by saying I envision ESO not requiring you play a nuke frame in order to make any actual progress. One of the biggest factors behind the nuke frame trend is that there's a mission that makes them just about mandatory.

Well, if you want to ruin Khora, Volt (and probably Saryn due to her needing to spread spores?) in ESO, you could make a Railjack tile with low densities of very tough Railjack enemies. Have each Railjack enemy kill produce a lot of progress but have them as low density and all spaced out... and lots of Exo Gokstad Officers too! If the hypothetical ESO Railjack tile has Exo Gokstad Officers then armor stripping won't work either (unless they changed that).

Then you at least force the Khora, Volt (and probably Saryn) to use melees, primaries or secondaries on that tile. Whipclaw won't work well here and neither will Discharge.

Another thing you can do is to uniformly distribute spawns across the map. Right now, all the spawns tend to happen in a single location. It's very easy to jump away and then jump back and find a big clump of enemies all in one location. This won't help on small tiles, but it will completely screw up Khora on large tiles. It won't affect Saryn or Volt if there are high densities of enemies though.

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13 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Or DE can fix Strangledome so enemies grabbed by it can be affected by abilities.

Warframe abilities do work on enemies in Strangledome 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

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@-Xtharvind- Now what is your problem? She does a lot of dmg after you modded your meele weapon. For millions of dmg you need good mods or even good Riven, not just noob ones. Before Xoris came out, I used Naramon Power Spike for unlimited combo counter or just killed the whole enemies, not standing around like a turd, doing something. Now explain me whats your problem is, if you or your Teammates does millions of dmg, after they farmed, upgraded, leveled to reach for that dmg? After DE nerfs this skill to the ground? then what? you can do then better than before? watch your whole teammates takes useless frames then complain about them? Warframe is not hard game but people with "nerf this or nerf that" are really annoying, this isn't even a pvp game. Changes or Rework abilities, making unique, different is okey but asking to nerf this Skill after all these farms and upgrades and then reaching high dmg is useless.

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This is a topic I created last October.

"Accumulating Whipclaw" has a way to stack infinite damage bonuses.

  • Fall into the hole and restart
  • Move out of area and restart
  • Touch Nullifier Bubble
  • Touch Demolyst's Red Aura
  • Go through the gate to the next zone in a Sanctuary Onslaught

This will reset the stack, but the damage will be maintained and will not decrease.
Stacking damage bonus again will increase the damage even more.

If you get a 350% damage bonus per zone and proceed to the next, Khora players will start ESO Zone 8 with 2450% damage bonus.
In endless mission, you may be able to defeat an Grineer Bombard or Napalm who has grown up to hundreds of levels with a single click.
This bug can be executed intentionally, but it can happen in normal play, and it can happen without intention.

If this bug is resolved, "Accumulating Whipclaw" damage bonus will stop at 350%, which carries the risk of losing the combo counter.
It will return to the appropriate damage and will have disadvantages.

The current Khora has this bug and cannot be evaluated correctly.
However, the player is thinking based on the current Khora, so if they correct it, they will consider it as a nerf.
The problem is that DPS relies on Whipclaw, and if you fix this bug, you'll need to create new synergies with other abilities(Ensnare / Venari / Strangledome) to give players new options and strategies.

Edited by dimekikko
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On 2020-06-20 at 5:23 PM, Pizzarugi said:

If enemy spawn rates weren't garbage and made missions like excavation or survival excruciating, believe me, I'd be playing solo more often. Shameless plug to address it.

And you can't play with friends if your friends have quit or don't play the game.

But yeah, find whatever excuse you want to dismiss a problem the game has so you can feel better about abusing it.

"But yeah, find whatever excuse you want to dismiss a problem the game has so you can feel better about abusing it."

When did the forums get so toxic and arrogant?

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1 hour ago, dimekikko said:

This is a topic I created last October.

"Accumulating Whipclaw" has a way to stack infinite damage bonuses.

  • Fall into the hole and restart
  • Move out of area and restart
  • Touch Nullifier Bubble
  • Touch Demolyst's Red Aura
  • Go through the gate to the next zone in a Sanctuary Onslaught

This will reset the stack, but the damage will be maintained and will not decrease.
Stacking damage bonus again will increase the damage even more.

If you get a 350% damage bonus per zone and proceed to the next, Khora players will start ESO Zone 8 with 2450% damage bonus.
In endless mission, you may be able to defeat an Grineer Bombard or Napalm who has grown up to hundreds of levels with a single click.
This bug can be executed intentionally, but it can happen in normal play, and it can happen without intention.

If this bug is resolved, "Accumulating Whipclaw" damage bonus will stop at 350%, which carries the risk of losing the combo counter.
It will return to the appropriate damage and will have disadvantages.

The current Khora has this bug and cannot be evaluated correctly.
However, the player is thinking based on the current Khora, so if they correct it, they will consider it as a nerf.
The problem is that DPS relies on Whipclaw, and if you fix this bug, you'll need to create new synergies with other abilities(Ensnare / Venari / Strangledome) to give players new options and strategies.

Oh wow, you're right! Manually crunching the numbers between Zones 1 and 5 in my run for the same faction (Corpus) and combo counter bonuses reveals larger damage values than expected in Zone 5. I'm usually hopping into nullifier bubbles and meleeing them to death, so that checks off too!

So yes, I hope they fix this! It's not a nerf if it's wrong (and it's definitely wrong). Crunching the numbers and even considering Rivens, this bug must be the reason people are able to pull off 80 million damage values (or 18 million in your case). I just can't imagine reaching 80 million damage even with a high disposition weapon with an amazing Riven. I mean, you need to inflate 300 base damage to 80 million... I don't immediately see how this is possible without a bug like you describe.

I don't think this bug fix will affect Khora's effectiveness in ESO for 8 rounds... which is all I really care about. As long as I can do 8 rounds of ESO without a lame nuke frame like Saryn, I am very happy!

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En 18/6/2020 a las 2:14, -Xtharvind- dijo:

Introduction
Nowadays, there are not many weapons and warframe abilities that can bypass the obstacle; for example, exodia contagion (nerfted, remember nukong?), saryn, banshee, and khora's whip claw and etc.

 Problem
If you ask me what among those that can bypass obstacle that I feel annoying the most, I would say it is khora's whipclaw.
Let's analyse what's wrong with khora's whipclaw

  • Range: Whipclaw have base 10m at max rank which is the same as exodia contagion (10m), saryn (10m), and lower range than banshee (20m) so the range is not the issue here
  • Damage: Exodia damage is nerfed wrong time ago so there is nothing to say here (damage still exist but just less than when it was), saryn need stacking spore to deal high damage, banshee damage is just irrelevant but khora whipclaw damage is insaneeeeeeeeeeee you can dealt like million of damage with just this skill alone and compare to other warframe's ability, it is so easy to use, you just press 1 and it have high range, high damage and bypass obstacle.

To summerize, there are two problem with khora's whipclaw, which is the insanely high damage and the ability to bypass any obstacle. 

Solution 
In my opinion, there are 2 choice to fix this skill
1) Nerf the insanely high damage but still maintain the ability to bypass obstacle 
2) Maintain the damage but remove the ability to bypass obstacle  (in my opinion, I think this choice is better, similar to mesa where the enemy need to be in her sight to deal high damage)

Exactly why is it anoying? I mean ... one thing is a little fence that its bypased and another is a fckign wall ... i doupt many people start spaming atacks against a wall to wallhack to victory.

Also who cares if it's broken ? You aren't playing against that broken enemy ... that broken individual is your alie? Remeber the mision is to kil all sentient life that's not under our baner bro ... get with the program fam.

En 18/6/2020 a las 2:37, VoidArkhangel dijo:

DE: Nerfs Mesa.

Don't utter those blasphemous words you heathen  #MesaMasterRace

Edited by kaotis
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12 hours ago, Richeatue said:

"But yeah, find whatever excuse you want to dismiss a problem the game has so you can feel better about abusing it."

When did the forums get so toxic and arrogant?

Quoting a snippet I was responding to:

On 2020-06-20 at 3:15 PM, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Ah it's an "I don't like what other people use, mostly in pugs" issue so I'm gonna go ahead and discard any argument you've provided.

People really are special these days.

My responses are reciprocal and based on the intellectual dishonesty and arrogance of others. I'm more than happy to discuss the issue civilly, which I have when responding to several other people here if you care to check the first two pages. However, that doesn't mean I'm not going to fire back if someone makes toxic assumptions about my character for addressing a legitimate problem this game has which is terrible balance and the ease of players trivializing the game by spamming one button.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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Khora's busted and it pains me to see how easy and core she is to a lot of the content most frames struggle with. The frame in itself is good, but the augments and the fact it can benefit from a stat stick make her god tier.

Her 2 makes SO many situations as easy as they can get.

Her 1's just got too much damage, and no need to aim at all. Combo with 4 should just not exist. The way the augment works (making you just get rid off ability strength mod) adds up to the imbalance of the spell. To those saying you need to build up the combo, don't pretend you ever struggled in lvl 100 missions with 0 combo... And then if you go beyond lvl 100 you'll be already long enough in the mission to manage x12. And there's xoris now...

Her 3 is comfortable but balanced. The augment ? What the hell no frame should have such a busted aug ? Free arbitration lol

Her 4 just gets too much range. Such a massive CC with the 1st spell synergy for damage isn't fair.

+ she has a free kavat holy crap... Free set mods all over...

Don't get me wrong i really enjoy Khora and i play her regularly but she would be nicer nerfed. And some other frames along (hi mesa)

 

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