Morality of Subsuming

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

Just now, Aadi880 said:

Take Umbra to a nightmare mission and go into your operator and he'll load up a Tigris with malicious intent

i never felt the sting of betrayal till that day 

[Aadi880]

il y a 1 minute, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako a dit :

please this 

its confirmed that Umbra cannot be subsumed. DE has said the Helminth is allergic to orokin stuff. Umbra and primes are orokin in design and cannot subsume them.

Normal warframes are fine as they are just tenno derivatives, so technically, not much orokin in them.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

Just now, Aadi880 said:

its confirmed that Umbra cannot be subsumed. DE has said the Helminth is allergic to orokin stuff. Umbra and primes are orokin in design and cannot subsume them.

Normal warframes are fine as they are just tenno derivatives, so technically, not much orokin in them.

goodz , mako is pleased

[(PSN)NWOslave]

Its a video game. There is no morality involved in playing it. Sounds like something kotaku would write about and hand wring over

[Rakosta_Kai]

50 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

Take Umbra to a nightmare mission and go into your operator and he'll load up a Tigris with malicious intent

Out of curiosity I did just that...Nothing happened.

Maybe you should sit down and have a chat with your Umbra?

_{(I know what you meant though and I wouldn't want it to have the rad proc while I am outside of it)}

[SneakyErvin]

TSD is an iffy case to base things on since there may be other explainations for the WF acting "on its own".

Subconscious transference, meaning the Tenno actually controls the frame. And in the orbiter when the frame pulls the sword from its chest it may be either that subconscious transference or it may actually be Helminth due to its proximity to the frame doing it to save the operator.

We already know that the helminth can acti independently to help, we can just look at Nidus for that, where it literally dumps pieces of helminth all over the place, which then acts on its own. I dont think it would be far fetched if at close proximity it can trigger the helminth mass inside of frames to act, while being just a prolonged arm of helminth. We dont know how much of the orbiter he actually inhabits, we know there is the room and we know that it has managed to spread outside of that. And now with the update coming, he is litterally part of the wall, which he also seems to stretch far beyond.

So I dont think there is any morality or lack there of, we're just giving Helminth back to Helminth so he can gain knowledge that he in return can bestow on us.

The only case where it would be moraly questionable would be if we could have him cosume umbra, because there is a human inside that frame. All others are just Helminth, so if it doesnt hurt him it wont hurt the frame, which is him/it.

[Aadi880]

il y a 36 minutes, Padre_Akais a dit :

Out of curiosity I did just that...Nothing happened.

Aww man, it seems like they fixed it.

Umbra had specter AI, and specters would attack you in nightmare missions. But it seems DE has fixed the case with Umbra.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Aadi880 said:

Aww man, it seems like they fixed it.

Umbra had specter AI, and specters would attack you in nightmare missions. But it seems DE has fixed the case with Umbra.

That brings back /facepalm moments for me. 

Playing nightmare interception, spawning my specter to guard the point. The thing starts shooting like a maniac and I sit there and wonder "where the heck are the mobs that it is shooting at!?", then deciding to go for the next point since I couldnt find them. Shorty after leaving the node gets taken, I get back there and it is somehow contested with no mobs there... gee I wonder why, and the specter keeps shooting at something. Took me a while to figure out it was shooting at me and sadly I need to admit this wasnt even when I was new to the game.

Not one of my proudest or brightest moment.

[Nine]

I've gone through hek linking sources all across spacetime over the whole warframes being people thing, I'll spare everyone by not adding the same lengthy rambling over numerous threads.

Spoiler

(they are, we're lousy with concrete, direct evidence and are explicitly told so repeatedly. I love ranting about it.)

 I did want to throw in something I happened to think of, I remembered that DE had talked for awhile about eventually allowing other (non-umbra) warframes to obtain Umbra's AI passive. I just thought it was an interesting indirect comment on how they view all other warframes.

*aside, Umbra is also transformed via the Helminth strain, as mentioned by Ballas in his notes.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Nine said:

I've gone through hek linking sources all across spacetime over the whole warframes being people thing, I'll spare everyone by not adding the same lengthy rambling over numerous threads.

  Reveal hidden contents

(they are, we're lousy with concrete, direct evidence and are explicitly told so repeatedly. I love ranting about it.)

 I did want to throw in something I happened to think of, I remembered that DE had talked for awhile about eventually allowing other (non-umbra) warframes to obtain Umbra's AI passive. I just thought it was an interesting indirect comment on how they view all other warframes.

That would be through echos and it wouldnt make the frame alive, it would just be something that the nanites in the infested part of the frame would interact with periodically. Umbra is an actual living human host, with a specific transference bolt, one that was designed to allow Ballas to control him and subdue him while also keeping the specific memory in focus to torment him even in his subdued and controlled state.

[Morrow]

14 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

He saved me. I'm going to sit on this one for a while. 

Yeah, I'm making a new volt to subsume. I'm keeping the original that was my starter and I used for the quest.

[Takamori]

Moral went out of the window when we massacred some races like mentioned already haha.

 

But still a query regarding warframe, dunno if I paid enough attention (ADHD is s***), thought only umbras were the warframes with a living organism inside and the current warframes are the ones that are fully mechanical no organic parts inside.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 minutes ago, Takamori said:

Moral went out of the window when we massacred some races like mentioned already haha.

 

But still a query regarding warframe, dunno if I paid enough attention (ADHD is s***), thought only umbras were the warframes with a living organism inside and the current warframes are the ones that are fully mechanical no organic parts inside.

Only one we did that to is the Orokin, and we weren't alone in that. The others we're aligned with and protect parts of them: Steel Meridian, Perrin Sequence, Helminth, Sentinels, Solaris U. and yes even Natah. 

[OniDax]

14 hours ago, Morrow said:

For the most part our frames a mindless husks for our operators to control, but, as we saw in the finale of The Second Dream quest, we know that isn't entirely the case. So what do you make of feeding our possibly borderline semi-aware companions to an infested compost heap in order gain access to one of their abilities for everyone else?

They're infested creatures. There's no morality in destroying them. We build them, we destroy them. Not a big deal.

[Morrow]

8 minutes ago, Takamori said:

Moral went out of the window when we massacred some races like mentioned already haha.

 

But still a query regarding warframe, dunno if I paid enough attention (ADHD is s***), thought only umbras were the warframes with a living organism inside and the current warframes are the ones that are fully mechanical no organic parts inside.

All warframes were originally humans infected with the helminth strain of the infestation, which is why they are often confused as to why you fight them. The warframes we use are essentially lobotomized clones of those people.

[Oreades]

I'm sure it will play a huge part in the games intricate moral choice mechanics. 

[Takamori]

Well thanks for the answers, now that's pretty grim stuff. I remember in Closed beta that I wished we were like regular humans wearing the frame body as a battle suit.

Im now crying in a corner.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Morrow said:

The warframes we use are essentially lobotomized clones of those people.

Is it technically a Lobotomy if it didn't have anything to lobotomize in the first place?

[Morrow]

Just now, Aldain said:

Is it technically a Lobotomy if it didn't have anything to lobotomize in the first place?

There is certainly something in those noggins of theirs, we know that at least Excalibur has eyes hidden beneath their face plate, it would stand to reason that other parts of their anatomy remain as well

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

The only frame that still has any sense of self is umbra the rest are copies of perfected frames that lost all their humanity.

So it's not an issue.  Now if we could actually imbra the other frames that would be different.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Technically , you're not killing them, just fusing them into your ship... Hope that makes you sleep better at night !

[Amazerath]

To me, subsuming is essentially the act of giving your warframe a well deserved retirement.

The infested matter living in the frame isn't harmed or killed. It just merges with the Helminth, which is another infested organism. It no longer needs to fight battles for the tenno and get shot, stabbed, burned or frozen in the process. It becomes part of something bigger. Bigger from the perspective of an infested organism, not from the perspective of a human or tenno.

Warframes are not empty or hollow. But in Warframe's universe not everything needs to be human in order to have a mind, soul, essence or whatever it is that you prefer to call it. Warframes are infested entities and their lives and bodies don't necessarily follow human logic.

Lastly, I think the fact that DE chose to call it "subsume" (absorb) instead of something like "sacrifice" (kill) is pretty significant. And Steve saying "she's getting some rest" and "she'll find new life within the belly of the beast" is also equally telling, regardless of the tone he used in the devstream.

[-SicMundusCreatusEst-]

16 hours ago, HeartPurity said:

imagine feeding excalibur umbra to it after all that poor umbra has gone through. 

 

Too much hearthbreaking to even thinking about it.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

I think part of the issue is, this is a case of mechanic trumps lore. They want to create a system that encourages farming in system that already exist, ie warframes. And a system to absorb excess resources and encourages farming. If not for the end of the Second Dream and the Sacrifice indicating that Warframes are clones of sacrificed humans, that have demonstrated degrees of free will, this would be less of an ethical situation. But, at the end of the day, the game needs systems to drive gameplay.  

[rapt0rman]

I still believe that all Warframes either still have an ego like Umbra but are unable to act upon it (usually), or at the very least still have basal instincts, either from their last shreds of humanity, or even just self-preservation of the infestation itself.

Even mass produced, they'd still all be clones with the technocyte equivalent of "genetic memory" of the first one.

 

All that said, hell yeah I'm gonna feed Warframes to my new hongry friend.