Morality of Subsuming

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

Can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs. .  Now do the honorable thing mag and get in the wall..😂😂😂😂

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

The way they go limp when our operatiors leave says to me theres nothing there,  or at best their in a comatose steight. ..  and feeding them to the wall it's almost like letting them entire Nirvana. .  At lest that's what I'll be telling myself to have me sleep at night. .

 

But the man in the wall will be getting some friends so that's good. ..

[(PSN)robotwars7]

step 1: make enough plat from trading to buy a duplicate frame (if you're on console, also wait until you get a Market Coupon).

step 2: buy the frame with the power you need.

step 3: immediately feed it to helminth.

step 4: GROFIT

boom, moral crisis averted. damn I'm good. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

The way they go limp when our operatiors leave says to me theres nothing there,  or at best their in a comatose steight. ..  and feeding them to the wall it's almost like letting them entire Nirvana. .  At lest that's what I'll be telling myself to have me sleep at night. .

You done all the quests? Also they don't really go limp 

More like a parade rest, like soldiers tend to do while waiting for further instructions. 

11 minutes ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

But the man in the wall will be getting some friends so that's good. ..

I think... I think maybe he's had someone teaching him how to tap on doors. Maybe. 

[(PSN)reddragonhrcro]

As we know the mass produced frames were made as blank slates, without a mind of their own, only known exception is/are Umbra frame/s.(we are still waiting DE)

 

[Pyus]

18 hours ago, Morrow said:

For the most part our frames a mindless husks for our operators to control, but, as we saw in the finale of The Second Dream quest, we know that isn't entirely the case. So what do you make of feeding our possibly borderline semi-aware companions to an infested compost heap in order gain access to one of their abilities for everyone else?

Helminith is just taking them to a special Ranch where all the warframes go to play, kill grineer, and enjoy the sun all day long. Pay no attention to the Iron skin and Vex armor on my atlas. 

[(PSN)TheWanderer17]

19 hours ago, Morrow said:

For the most part our frames a mindless husks for our operators to control, but, as we saw in the finale of The Second Dream quest, we know that isn't entirely the case. So what do you make of feeding our possibly borderline semi-aware companions to an infested compost heap in order gain access to one of their abilities for everyone else?

What's the morality of going through the solar system destroying everything before you for no other reason than spacemom or ordis told you to...

I'd hazard we dont spend too much time thinking about these things.  We just smash.  

Power is all we care about and we will sacrifice anything for more of it.

😃

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, (PS4)TheWanderer17 said:

What's the morality of going through the solar system destroying everything before you for no other reason than spacemom or ordis told you to...

I'd hazard we dont spend too much time thinking about these things.  We just smash.  

Power is all we care about and we will sacrifice anything for more of it.

😃

Who is this "we" you're talking about? 

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

On 2020-08-02 at 11:27 PM, Morrow said:

For the most part our frames a mindless husks for our operators to control, but, as we saw in the finale of The Second Dream quest, we know that isn't entirely the case. So what do you make of feeding our possibly borderline semi-aware companions to an infested compost heap in order gain access to one of their abilities for everyone else?

or it could have been at the time helmith sensed the danger an triggered the warframe to move

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

You're in no position to question the morality of subsuming, considering all those Prime Warframe parts I saw you sell to Baro Kiteer in exchange for a fancy rug and some ornaments.

Yes you did! I saw you in the Relay last weekend, dragging around that big sack of dismembered warframe corpses.

also, pretty sure Alad V gets a good portion of parts for his creations from Baro... kinda hypocritical to paint him as evil when its all the same supply chain starting with you.

[Ramflax]

The technocyte virus strips the mind of their victims only leaving pain of having sword steel as flesh. For whatever reason the tennos void energy acts as a pain reliever creating a symbiotic relationship between the two. In which the warframe allow themselves to be used as meat puppets for the benefits of not feeling pain. They are self aware to a point but they are not people any more. They are no different then the chargers we kill by the 100s in that regard.

In terms of the second dream ending its unclear why our warframes do what they do. They could be just moving to remove the blade which is unlikely since warframes are damaged all the time, it is more likely that the warframe is trying to free itself in some vain effort to save the operator. But it would not be because the warframe cares about the star child, it would be because the warframe would lose the one thing that saves it from pain.

Converting them into biomass is the only way to give them a true death as well. Look at umbra, we could revive him from mere scraps. Infested exist throughout every cell, so only by being consumed by another can one actually die. They dont have thoughts or dreams, they exist in a state of null, with only us or helminth being able to put an end to the pain they feel.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Ramflax said:

In terms of the second dream ending its unclear why our warframes do what they do. They could be just moving to remove the blade which is unlikely since warframes are damaged all the time, it is more likely that the warframe is trying to free itself in some vain effort to save the operator. But it would not be because the warframe cares about the star child, it would be because the warframe would lose the one thing that saves it from pain.

Says you. My Rhino saved me.

 

[Asteridice]

On 2020-08-05 at 12:17 PM, Ramflax said:

Converting them into biomass is the only way to give them a true death as well. Look at umbra, we could revive him from mere scraps. Infested exist throughout every cell, so only by being consumed by another can one actually die. They dont have thoughts or dreams, they exist in a state of null, with only us or helminth being able to put an end to the pain they feel.

I feel that this is a really good point. This might sound twisted, but we very well could be saving them from a torturous existence by dissolving them into the Helminth room. But... at the same time, it's not like our frames can even speak for themselves. We don't even know if they're suffering or not. We can only assume, and I hesitate at ending a life using only a myriad of assumptions. 

On 2020-08-05 at 2:15 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Says you. My Rhino saved me.

I can't not get past this. How do we destroy a being that has saved us without seeming immoral? Some form of utilitarianism? 

[DatDarkOne]

41 minutes ago, Bleu-Blooded said:

I can't not get past this. How do we destroy a being that has saved us without seeming immoral? Some form of utilitarianism?

Well, considering that I have 6 Ivaras (3 reg and 3 primes), it won't be hard at all to give up one.  This from an admitted die-hard Ivara main and fan.  😛  

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

Well, considering that I have 6 Ivaras (3 reg and 3 primes), it won't be hard at all to give up one.  This from an admitted die-hard Ivara main and fan.  😛  

Yeah, I'm gonna sparta kick a Mag into the Hentai wall first chance I get. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

My question is what happens if I place the cat's bed conveniently close to the Helminth's mouth... can I subsume my kavat? 😄

[MagPrime]

On 2020-08-02 at 9:33 PM, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Yep, drawing the line.  Slaughtering tens of thousands of Corpus and Grineer is ok, though. 

Don't forget the wild Kavats and Kubrows or the domesticated Drahk and Hyekkas.  Gotta draw the line at a meat puppet.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 hour ago, Bleu-Blooded said:

I can't not get past this. How do we destroy a being that has saved us without seeming immoral? Some form of utilitarianism? 

Easily, you yell "THIS IS SPARTAAAA! and kick him in while he's holding your least favourite smeeta kavat.

[(PSN)Unstar]

I'm really glad someone asked this question.  It's great! 

I think it comes down to major question: what do the Warframes want?

To have wants, the Warframes need to be sentient.  While we don't know for sure that they are, Ballas says something along the lines of "Tenno can work with Warframes because they take their pain away".  If something can experience pain, that suggests being alive and sentient to me.  So I would err on the side of the idea that Warframes are to this day alive.

So then the question is, does the Warframe want to be subsumed by Helminth?  This is another question that we can't directly answer, but we can try to guess if we have more information.  Sadly we don't have answers to questions such as:

• Does subsuming the Warframes kill them, or does it instead lead to an altered state of existence?
• If it would kill the Warframes, is death a kind of release that Warframes desire?  Many if not all of them did not volunteer for this kind of life.

When in doubt, however, I think the most moral thing would be to assume that the interests of a Warframe are the same as those of a standard human.  Humans generally don't want to be eaten.  And since you can't take being eaten back, but could change your mind to being eaten at any time, the safest route seems to be not feeding them to Helminth.  (I'm gonna though, because it's fun, and I'm going to RP that my Warframes love it)

But that also prompts the question: hey, everyone, how many Warframes have you sold for 10,000 credits when you got the Prime version?  What ever happened to them?  Morality is knocking 😧

[-CdG-Zilchy]

It's for the greater good, if I could subsume my pets as well I would, I want Charm on my frames please.

 

[(XBOX)KamikaZSquirrel]

I would like to see the choice of subsuming our frames become an entirely new path division for our Tenno, subsume and its like taking a step into a darker path to power but not doing so keeps us pure. 

The new theme is infested and the Heart of Deimos is where currently the lore behind the xpack says that Tenno power comes from here before it fell to necro corruption.... Saying that will subsuming actually play a role in our individual stories? Will my Tenno become corrupted? Will our actions empower either of the Deimos Deities? 

It makes interesting conversation, My Tenno is what I made him to be and feel it as my personal journey like an in game badge of honour that gives me the sense of attachment to him.. The sentiment of my frame saving me is strong, but it's a false hope! We emerged from a sleep and in our presence our frame first fell to its knees, a useless soulless husk and it was I who crawled to it and made it move. I controlled that shell to get my own arse to safety! 

Think on that.... 

[Circle_of_Psi]

I rather give up my Operator to the Helmnith, rather then my frames, to get rid of that loli in my ship. However how I believe it is that Primes/Umbras (with some exceptions) are Sentient but  Non-prime warframes are mass produced types which are pretty much just biomechanical shells.

So it be alright to give up your normal frames, but still DE where is my "Delete Operator button" cuz no one likes the "Kid Badass/Trooper" idea   

[Acersecomic]

I am going to link you all to the thread I started and has had some excellent replies for both sides of the argument. Really makes you unsure about what to do. At one moment you'll be like "yeah it's fine" and in the other "mate, this is wrong". Give it a read. Would be cool if we could get a merge too since it seems the flames have been lit.

 

[Urlan]

I do not believe that regular warframes were designed to have wills; IE they are per the game not made from folk; but rather crafted into the shape and function of humans; taking from the previous exterminated bio-drones that shared the name per Sacrifice before we were introduced and Silvana brought in to help Margulis in making surrogate bodies for our therapy and rehabilitation. That said, I figure both Void echoes and somatic fibers could be used to give warframes that awareness or memories of those that came before; if that is the case; I could understand both how someone might consider allowing Helminth Virus on a warframe, and subsuming would be unethical or immoral to submit to another living creature. That said, ultimately; I don't think it is going to change much and I do think mechanically that it is a good addition - even if I will not be using it - for the majority of players, as customization is part of the heart of Warframe. I don't think that its cool to allow particularly mindless or lobotomized organisms such a fate since they can not choose it themselves; and if they could, I would never ask of another to do such for my benefit as while its a game, that is an evil act. Either way, I doubt DE will appropriately make the Karma meter move any for the player's choices and in general be developed to consider the ramifications of the player choices - which Little Shop of Horror would be a good watch if so.

[DatDarkOne]

The true title of this topic should be "Hypocrisy at its finest!"