Ideas DE can use for warframe changes

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-09-24 at 9:06 PM, Aldain said:

-snip-

I agree, Loki needs a revisit imo. I have some ideas to improve his abilities, tell me what you think.

Loki

Spoiler

New Passive: Your attacks will have 100% chance to proc radiation, the proc will last double the duration.

·       The passive will deactivate when using his 2nd ability.

 

1st ability:

·       After cast, it`s immune to damage for five seconds while absorbing damage however, the five seconds of immunity doesn’t start until it gets attacked. Depending on the damage stored it will be converted into health for more survivability.

·       Holding the ability will make the decoy mobile within a 10m radius which can be increased by range mods.

·       When shooting, enemies will be affected by an impact proc making them stagger.

·       While using mobile decoy mode, there is a 50% chance of it to proc blast damage knocking enemies down, if this happens, enemies within a 30m radius will prioritise the decoy as a dangerous threat increasing threat levels for seven seconds. (threat levels higher than interception and defence targets)

·       It will use whatever primary or secondary weapon Loki is currently using.

 

2nd ability:

·       Remove muffled sound while invisible.

·       (Synergy) casting decoy will be invisible for half the duration attracting enemies within a 20m radius to run over to the sound the decoy is making.

 

3rd ability:

·       After switching with the enemy, loki will be invulnerable for 1 second.

·       Loki is always be facing the enemy he`s switches with.

·       If he teleports into a group of enemies, they will receive a knock down in a 10m radius.

·       You can switch places with crates, barrels and dead bodies.

·       If you have a melee weapon equipped while doing so, enemies will take slide attack damage from melee weapon.

·        (Synergy) If you decide to switch places with the decoy, you and the decoy will knock down enemies within a 15m radius.

 

4th ability:

·       Holding the ability will make enemies weapons explode dealing 1000 blast damage and knocking them down. This can be increased by strength mods.

·       This will deactivate eximus abilities for 20 seconds. This is not affected by duration mods.

 

[Luciole77]

Atlas rework on walls and rumblers.

Loki is loki....not much to say. He has stealth with high speed running....myabe increase speed when skill invi is actvated? Radiation skill with duration....while loki run invis radiation is splited on the floor like nezha....and disarming enemies.

Banshee very low survivability....need some defensive skill

Valkyr needs skill  boost to strip armor and grab more enemies at time and use roofs to move more fast....like tarzan.....

Frost need skill 2 with more range and duration and angle for more Crowd control....frozen floor.

Nidus i believe needs reworks....skill 4 its only viable on defensive missions or interceptions. Need less stacks....a lot less to do things a little more fast.

Hydroid needs to change his passive....very uselles  i can tell. Why not increase range in all skills  each enemies grabbed with tentacles?

Rhino another with uselles passive

Ash skill 4 spwan ghosts while invisible  this ghosts finalize enemies too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

23 hours ago, Luciole77 said:

-snip-

You do make some good points, I think these warframes need;

Atlas - revisit

Loki - revisit

Banshee - revisit or rework

Valkyr - rework

Frost - revisit

Hydroid - revisit or rework

Rhino - Qol on passive

Ash - revisit

 

As for Nidus I don`t like his 3 and 4 coz they are stationary abilities and abilities like those can`t be used in most mission types, If I talked what I envisioned for Nidus, I would get ridiculed for it.

I have put up a post giving my ideas for reworks, revisits and Qols for warframe, take a look if you`re interested.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1168575-warframe-reworks-revisits-qols-of-every-frame/

 

[Hardwood]

They could rework Limbo out of the game.

And get rid of Nekros four. I'm fine if he just doesn't have a fourth ability, as long as that thing is gone.

[fungame_dot_exe]

Nezha is squishy as hell and needs a rework. Basically a worse Rhino. DE could have done more with unconventional abilities.

Banshee is completely squishy too, and since the 4 nerf, can't do anything useful.

Vauban is another.

Oberon seems kind of useless and needs a rework. Passive could be more impressive, like buffing pet damage or pet ability duration/power.

Titania is complete trash and incredibly squishy. A handy guide to individual frames' dmg reduction using unmodded armor. On Mot (Void survival) her exalted guns aren't that amazing.

Wukong has an excellent kit, probably among the most versatile and interesting.

Mesa is boring. Go on Mot, jam their guns for 60 sec, repeat ad nauseam.

Grendel and Gauss seem really out of place in a game inspired by ninjas and mythology.

We still don't have enemies that show up like Stalker and jump around turning invisible at times and doing parkour to make them hard to shoot. Instead, we have a bullet sponge enemy game and artificial time gating (daily standing cap, quests, invulnerable bosses) to compensate how players easily kill everything in few different actual ways.

Ember, Frost and Volt should have 100% resistance to their element types. Wisp is a better Volt than Volt.. why? Because Volt was designed years ago and something something people might get upset if you change a warframe's abilities.

It wasn't intentional on DE's part, but Wisp's design makes it so that Wisp is the de facto best frame to bring to Defense and Survival missions, instead of warframe designs having different yet complementary utility with one another.

If any frame didn't need a Prime, it was Inaros.

Excalibur Umbra is fun to use at first but there is no Operator shotgun/rifle. It quickly becomes boring when you don't have a unique and flexible set of abilities. Everyone knows Excalibur has poor survivability and poor damage. So you rarely see one. Just like how you rarely see a Nezha, or a Titania, or a Banshee Prime.

Baruuk is some kind of cheat character that has great damage reduction while pumping out great damage on Steel Path. The point of modding and minmaxing and having a skill based gameplay is that you are always sacrificing something for something else. Look at Gears 5 and how you configure the difficulty modifiers for Insane difficulty. Can you manage taking 2x damage from enemies, or will you have to deal with 2x enemy health instead?

Nidus is boring and uninteresting if you have Inaros. Virtually nothing about Nidus screams "infested evolutionary prowess". Tendrils that come out like spikes pulverizing and confusing enemies, making them walk in circles attacking your enemies or each other, would be an "Infestation" type skill. The passive healing is trash unless you're a noob. However Nidus' ability damage scaling when you build up stacks for 45min.. that's good.

Hildryn seemed good until you realize that none of her abilities are fun. Her Iron Man hovering mode is the only remotely fun thing about her, but costs energy.

Limbo for me is just an annoying ally. Give him some proper abilities, like wrapping up a box area of enemies into a flat mirror, disabling and squeezing the life out of them completely. If DE had good original ideas like this, thinking outside the box, then you wouldn't be limited to "Area of Effect zone that stops other players shooting enemies, haha, how cool and fun would that be".

Wisp shouldn't be insanely overpowered compared to other frames for Defense missions. The motes are exactly that. It's a cool idea and something interesting and different to the typical Warframe ability playstyle; but the motes are indestructible and offer 100% electricity status, extreme healing, and attack speed which boosts DPS a lot.

Mirage should instead be able to summon multiple doppelgangers/clones, that have AI like Wukon's Celestial Twin. 2 at base Pow Str. Eclipse is unpredictable and useless.

Mag I played for 10 minutes and seemed fun with her 1.

Valkyr is completely useless considering the basic relationship between health and armor. More health is always far better for effective HP or eHP than is armor. You can try different builds on overframe.gg to test this out. It displays the eHP for your build.

 

Loki is incredibly weak and vulnerable outside of invisibility. Meaning people use Loki Prime or Ash Prime (much better) for Spy Sortie runs, and nothing apart from that niche area.

Chroma doesn't deliver on tankability like Inaros does. His abilities take too long to get started up and they don't last long, they are too extreme.

Ember/Frost seem really weak considering they are supposed to be masters of their element.

Octavia is overpowered but not in an annoying way, so that's fine.

Another thing to note is Specters and how imbalanced they are. Some people said that Nidus specters were the best (I can't remember if they took away the dmg reduction from his 3). Inaros specters are the best since they have high health and can quite often use crowd control abilities (pocket sand, the disable single target 2, and the whirlwind 3).

[Hixlysss]

IMO Banshee is frame currently in the worst spot. Sure she has Silence which people insist is a good CC(it only works once when you come into range for a momentary thing) and Sonar(personally, great power, needs no changes other than maaaybe capping how many times it stacks on enemies?) which has...reduced her to very niche situations. I don't think i've seen a banshee "in the wild" as it were in...well not since they did the change to the augment to sound quake, which says a lot.

Rhino would be second. Just to make him compatible with some arcanes they need to rework his ironskin to be similar to what Nezha's warding halo. And of course changing his passive. But in general some tweaks to the rest of his kit for more synergy between abilities, maybe a range increase to stomp or duration increase so it's a more potent CC. Biggest change i'd do for Rhino is make his roar be a massive aggro pull while active.

Loki needs some love cause I mean...switch TP and Decoy are his weakest powers IMO. Decoy should be pure duration based instead of having health. Switch TP should just get removed and replaced with something else.

[Luciole77]

1 minute ago, Hixlysss said:

IMO Banshee is frame currently in the worst spot. Sure she has Silence which people insist is a good CC(it only works once when you come into range for a momentary thing) and Sonar(personally, great power, needs no changes other than maaaybe capping how many times it stacks on enemies?) which has...reduced her to very niche situations. I don't think i've seen a banshee "in the wild" as it were in...well not since they did the change to the augment to sound quake, which says a lot.

Rhino would be second. Just to make him compatible with some arcanes they need to rework his ironskin to be similar to what Nezha's warding halo. And of course changing his passive. But in general some tweaks to the rest of his kit for more synergy between abilities, maybe a range increase to stomp or duration increase so it's a more potent CC. Biggest change i'd do for Rhino is make his roar be a massive aggro pull while active.

Loki needs some love cause I mean...switch TP and Decoy are his weakest powers IMO. Decoy should be pure duration based instead of having health. Switch TP should just get removed and replaced with something else.

silence is interesting but dont help in anything...banshee die with just 1 shot.

[Luciole77]

24 minutes ago, fungame_dot_exe said:

Nezha is squishy as hell and needs a rework. Basically a worse Rhino. DE could have done more with unconventional abilities.

Banshee is completely squishy too, and since the 4 nerf, can't do anything useful.

Vauban is another.

Oberon seems kind of useless and needs a rework. Passive could be more impressive, like buffing pet damage or pet ability duration/power.

Titania is complete trash and incredibly squishy. A handy guide to individual frames' dmg reduction using unmodded armor. On Mot (Void survival) her exalted guns aren't that amazing.

Wukong has an excellent kit, probably among the most versatile and interesting.

Mesa is boring. Go on Mot, jam their guns for 60 sec, repeat ad nauseam.

Grendel and Gauss seem really out of place in a game inspired by ninjas and mythology.

We still don't have enemies that show up like Stalker and jump around turning invisible at times and doing parkour to make them hard to shoot. Instead, we have a bullet sponge enemy game and artificial time gating (daily standing cap, quests, invulnerable bosses) to compensate how players easily kill everything in few different actual ways.

Ember, Frost and Volt should have 100% resistance to their element types. Wisp is a better Volt than Volt.. why? Because Volt was designed years ago and something something people might get upset if you change a warframe's abilities.

It wasn't intentional on DE's part, but Wisp's design makes it so that Wisp is the de facto best frame to bring to Defense and Survival missions, instead of warframe designs having different yet complementary utility with one another.

If any frame didn't need a Prime, it was Inaros.

Excalibur Umbra is fun to use at first but there is no Operator shotgun/rifle. It quickly becomes boring when you don't have a unique and flexible set of abilities. Everyone knows Excalibur has poor survivability and poor damage. So you rarely see one. Just like how you rarely see a Nezha, or a Titania, or a Banshee Prime.

Baruuk is some kind of cheat character that has great damage reduction while pumping out great damage on Steel Path. The point of modding and minmaxing and having a skill based gameplay is that you are always sacrificing something for something else. Look at Gears 5 and how you configure the difficulty modifiers for Insane difficulty. Can you manage taking 2x damage from enemies, or will you have to deal with 2x enemy health instead?

Nidus is boring and uninteresting if you have Inaros. Virtually nothing about Nidus screams "infested evolutionary prowess". Tendrils that come out like spikes pulverizing and confusing enemies, making them walk in circles attacking your enemies or each other, would be an "Infestation" type skill. The passive healing is trash unless you're a noob. However Nidus' ability damage scaling when you build up stacks for 45min.. that's good.

Hildryn seemed good until you realize that none of her abilities are fun. Her Iron Man hovering mode is the only remotely fun thing about her, but costs energy.

Limbo for me is just an annoying ally. Give him some proper abilities, like wrapping up a box area of enemies into a flat mirror, disabling and squeezing the life out of them completely. If DE had good original ideas like this, thinking outside the box, then you wouldn't be limited to "Area of Effect zone that stops other players shooting enemies, haha, how cool and fun would that be".

Wisp shouldn't be insanely overpowered compared to other frames for Defense missions. The motes are exactly that. It's a cool idea and something interesting and different to the typical Warframe ability playstyle; but the motes are indestructible and offer 100% electricity status, extreme healing, and attack speed which boosts DPS a lot.

Mirage should instead be able to summon multiple doppelgangers/clones, that have AI like Wukon's Celestial Twin. 2 at base Pow Str. Eclipse is unpredictable and useless.

Mag I played for 10 minutes and seemed fun with her 1.

Valkyr is completely useless considering the basic relationship between health and armor. More health is always far better for effective HP or eHP than is armor. You can try different builds on overframe.gg to test this out. It displays the eHP for your build.

 

Loki is incredibly weak and vulnerable outside of invisibility. Meaning people use Loki Prime or Ash Prime (much better) for Spy Sortie runs, and nothing apart from that niche area.

Chroma doesn't deliver on tankability like Inaros does. His abilities take too long to get started up and they don't last long, they are too extreme.

Ember/Frost seem really weak considering they are supposed to be masters of their element.

Octavia is overpowered but not in an annoying way, so that's fine.

Another thing to note is Specters and how imbalanced they are. Some people said that Nidus specters were the best (I can't remember if they took away the dmg reduction from his 3). Inaros specters are the best since they have high health and can quite often use crowd control abilities (pocket sand, the disable single target 2, and the whirlwind 3).

Volt is good dude....shield  boost the damage and can walk with shield...i dont see problem with volt. He is in a good shape.

[fungame_dot_exe]

31 minutes ago, Luciole77 said:

Volt is good dude....shield  boost the damage and can walk with shield...i dont see problem with volt. He is in a good shape.

..But the 1 thing the lightning god is supposed to do, shock enemies CC, is done by Wisp and her teammates instead. It's far superior to Volt's Shock. It has a timer and doesn't need to be casted over and over. It has a wide range. This is a HUGE lore plot hole. Volt is supposed to be the lightning master, so why can't he do the best lightning ability?

Yes overall he is still good. But he isn't Wisp. You can just be Wisp instead and get constant CC for the team on Defense/Survival. Which is my point.. that shock CC and lightning procs - all of those should be done by Volt not Wisp. Otherwise what's the point in having element based frames if a new frame later will beat them to the punch???

Ember = fire frame, forever. No other frame will replace this in the WF lore. Same for Frost, same for Volt. So, it doesn't make any sense.

 

6 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Valkyr - rework

If you try playing her, even on a lvl ~25 Infested Survival (not Mot tier at all), she will quickly hit a wall where you are trying constantly to pop her invincibility 4 to get your health back. Life Strike now requires a heavy attack. You keep losing health and the armor doesn't mitigate damage enough. Even Nidus is nowhere near as tanky as Inaros, because of eHP (overframe.gg shows it).

Valkyr has nothing keeping her alive on Mot. Even if you had 2000 armor, you can quickly lose all your HP with a low health pool. (Let's say you're using Healing Return, and getting ~20HP back per melee hit. But the constant corrupted rifle/shotgun fire eats away at you fast). And 1000 isn't really a large health pool. She has no useful Crowd Control, she has no unconventional support or damage mitigation, she just has purely her good base armor stat. That's it. That's the whole package, apart from Warcry. Whereas even Excalibur Umbra, with the Umbral mods, has decent armor and a decent health pool, far tankier than Valkyr.

And anything that heals Valkyr is better on another frame with better abilities or a higher health pool.

That's the problem.. Valkyr is inherently a poor Warframe design. You could say the same for Nezha, Vauban, Banshee and Titania. Valkyr brings nothing to the team; does nothing for herself.

[SpinalGT]

Definetely QOL changes.
Relics: let us upgrade more than one at a time to radiant or whatever.
Missions: Some missions where u have to carry a key like mobile defense, disruption, make it so that it's team based (like Diablo) if someone picks it up, anyplayer can place the key at the terminals even if they're not phisicaly holding the key. Sometimes it's just a pain that someone picks it up and go do their stuff and we have to wait them forever.
Void Fissures: PLEASE make reactants abundant in a way that's not an issue at anytime, so frustrating to do some missions and there's just not enough reactants, some misssions where you could do some fast runs like excavations or disruption but you're required to slow down because of this.
Make Missions Repeatable: Like if you're farming warframe parts, or opening relics, just repeat without needing to go back to the orbital, just restart the mission without loadings, and anyone who's leaving gets replaced for whoever wants to do it at the moment.

Make an option to preserve parties: Like if you're on a 2-man or 3-man party let us choose to keep that party intact right after the missions. Example, me and a friend are playing, and two randoms join, as soon as we go back to the orbital, our party leaves the main party and we keep together and are able to just join another mission right away without having to leave the squad and inviting one another again.
Kuva: Sometimes on huge maps it's just a pain to find kuva syphon, we're there for the kuva, nothing else, so make it clear where it is right from the beginning.
LOADINGS: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, do some work on the loading, load a mission, load orbital, load mission, load orbital, host migration load.. Make it smoother, it's such a pain to in 2020 have so many loadings, and they're not fast even with my 970 EVO Samsung NVME SSD. It's outdated, in super need of rework. 

Enemy density: Please make it more dense, it's so much funnier to just have the map filled with bad guys, Deimos open world is just a fun quest when you're doing necramech vaults, there are so many enemies that's just too fun.. All maps should be like that.

Incorporate Weapons colors by loadout. 

 

For now that's what's coming to mind.

[Electropuncher]

On 2020-09-22 at 9:07 PM, Tiltskillet said:

It doesn't get talked about nearly enough, but Banshee needs a deep footwear rework.  I mean, I love her to death...but what the hell happened there??

 

Style is what happened there. Paint her yellow and they're banana shoes.

But while we're on Banshee, here are a couple of changes I'd like to see on her.

Health/shields: +10%. She's a bit too squishy, even with Prime.

Sonic Boom: Either wall slams need to do impact damage or this ability needs a new effect, like resetting awareness levels while the enemies get back up.

Sonar: It's fine, don't touch it.

Silence: Needs to open enemies up to finishers while they're stunned. I don't know why it doesn't, when that's what the augment enhances.

Sound Quake: Needs more bass in the SFX. Roll the augment into the base ability, because a "press 4 to stop playing" was never fun, and the augment makes this ability pretty good, if a bit unpredictable. Change damage type to impact. New augment is "Sonic Aftershocks: Enemies killed by this ability create a Sound Quake with 1/10th of the range."

 

Harrow: Not a rework, just needs an easier way to get the systems than a dead and broken game type.

 

Inaros: I know you said no obvious frames, but 2/4 of Inaros' abilities are actually pretty solid. Unfortunately, one of those 2 is just a passive in the hands of most players (despite being a good team heal).

Devour: Literally useless, given his passive. I would make this Mummy's Curse: A debuff that slowly withers an enemy and spreads on death. No specifics beyond that.

Sandstorm: Make this a cast-on-location ability that has a duration. Making this be a complete state-change for Inaros is really annoying, for the same reasons I hate vanilla Sound Quake. Does even less damage, too.

 

Mirage: Make her abilities manipulate lighting. Every single patch to change Mirage is basically a way to make her terrible, and I really want to know who on the dev team has it in for her.

 

Nova: Wormhole was never a good ability and you can't tell me otherwise. Should act like portals from Portal. Tap to create Emissive color portal at cursor, hold to cast Energy color portal at cursor. All can be used as a way to shoot enemies on the other side of the portal. Don't know how much programming it would take to implement this, if it's even possible in Evolution.

 

Nyx: Actually not nearly as broken as people think. She's quite good, honestly.

Mind Control: Build up damage while the target is stunned, then they bum rush the nearest clump of enemies (prioritizes higher target density on cast) and explodes for the stored damage.

Chaos: Remove your allies (and self) from the target pool. Alternatively, just have this apply 4 x ability strength stacks of Radiation.

Absorb: Roll Assimilate into the base effect. New augment restores movement functionality and increases your movement speed. Can stack both augments.

Octavia: Resonator needs to not charm enemies, and Conductor needs to be part of the ability's basic kit.

 

[Mediloric]

I'd say Nekros needs his 4 reworking, it's a good skill but damn it hurts to use outside of a few modes! Anything with a fair bit of a movement between areas and your guys can't keep up! 

"You can just recast your 4" Yes but... we have quite a few frames that have a minion(s) either cost a fraction of the energy needed (Wukclone) and/or teleport to you after a certain distance (Rumblers). Nekros has to spend the same energy cost + animation time if he wants his shadows to keep up with him (And even that doesn't work like 20% of time cause sometimes they'll just stay in their original position if they are Grineer and in cover) 

I just find it awful that frames that ain't true summoners like Nekros tries to be... do a far better job at it then Nekros. 

[Sojufueled]

Valk's kit is a mess . Chroma, Loki and Inaros have abilities that if they are used at all aren't very interactive.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Note: hold CTRL F and type the following to view;

Issues

Stats

Look/try for yourself

 

Ash is one of the most controversial frames to talk about (under limbo), it`s almost a split between ppl liking and disliking him. imo the "revisit" he got in 2016 didn`t do him justice and needs a revisit.

 

Issues

Here are a list of issues of each of his abilities;

 

1st ability

Spoiler

·       Even through seeking out enemies is very useful, sometime it end up not targeting the enemy you want and as a ninja, that is something Ash should be able to do.

·       In high-levels the ability loses the ability to deal decent damage despite his passive, either you have to spam the ability which makes you consume a lot of enemy and if there are multiple enemies around the chance of you hitting the same enemy is not high or add his augment seeking shuriken.

·       It`s good in low-level missions but not in high-level missions and it’s the reverse when adding the augment onto it.

 

2nd ability

Spoiler

·       The duration of his invisibility is only 8 secs with a 1sec stun duration. Even through other ppl have an issue with it, I don`t due to the fact I see it as a strategic ability where you have to cast it at the right moment for it to be effective.

·       The 1sec stun duration is short which some ppl don`t care about, it could be better to give Ash cc which will make it more useful.

 

3rd ability

Spoiler

·       When it comes to opening enemies up to finishers, it`s not consistent ruining the flow of stealth gameplay and opening you up to a chance to get gunned down due to the fact that enemies don`t shoot/kill you when you are in the finisher animation. This also make you have to rely on using the augment which is a waste of a mod slot just to fix an issue with an ability.

·       Teleporting to the other side of grates and fans is also not consistent. By the laws of teleportation, I should be able to bypass them if there is a path beyond it and if I can see it.

·       This is a personal issue I have and is not a big one but when ppl sees Ash teleport, he looks like he is zipping which is wrong, as boring as it looks it`s should just look like him blinking to a location, visually blade storm does this.

·       Ash can`t teleport to dargyns and again this is not a big issue (just mines) but it doesn’t make sense that Loki can do it but not Ash when both concepts are similar.

 

And the 4th ability... so many 

Spoiler

·       The two stages of the killing process make bs slow, because of this, other players can take his kills before you get a chance to kill them which makes him not helpful in the team, not fun to play and in a fast-pasted game this is bad.

 

·       Marking enemies for some players is sickening because of the motion of moving the cursor onto enemies, even though it`s easier (but still a problem) to do this using a mouse, doing this on a controller is not as easy, an ability should be able to be easy to use no matter what you use.

 

·       Because enemies are highlighted by your chosen energy colour, it will make enemies more visible to other players to go and kill them which in their minds is a top priority.

 

·       If you want the full damage of bs, you have to mark the enemies three times which will slow you down or  makes you stationary (if you want to do it quickly) to mark enemies with three marks. In low-level missions, your energy will be refunded back to you if you over mark and in high levels you obviously going to want the full damage of it so there is absolutely no point in having to choose the amount of damage you want to dish out. With the old bs, you had the full damage regardless.

 

·       Bodies disappearing makes it to where you can`t bring him in a desecrating team with a nekros. While bodies disappearing makes sense on paper for him being a ninja and I like the idea, unfortunately, this just makes him a problem in that team.

 

·       The indicator shows how many marks instead of how many enemies affected by bs. Because of this, you have no idea how many enemies are going to be killed. If it showed how many enemies affected by bs, it will let the play know when to use bs again.

 

·       Using your 2nd ability to use less energy is not synergy. Synergy is meant to be a choice that makes a difference in missions however, this so-called synergy is a must to use it consistently which makes it a bad gimmick.

 

·       Because of the synergy between his 2nd & 4th ability, you are forced to mod for duration to benefit from using less energy for bs since most people are not going to use bs while it`s taking more energy.

 

·       Using the 3rd ability to join the animation costs no energy but you need energy to be able to use it which makes no sense plus, in low-level missions, sometimes you`re not even going to get a chance use your 3rd ability because the apparitions have killed the enemies already. (depending on how many enemies you mark)

 

·       Apparitions (clones) appearance is not consistent. The visuals go from looking like you custom coloured Ash to a hologram version, to the original ash look with default colours. Also, this is a bug that the old bs had which means it has not been fixed.

 

·       When marking, you can`t mark enemies that are behind walls or objects which make you have to run around searching for enemies to kill and if you in a team, your marked enemies will be killed off by your teammates.

 

·       Even if Ash`s damage has increased to 2,000, (his damage now is still great) the damage is not as good compared to the old bs. The apparitions of the old bs was like Saryn`s 1st ability damage but slightly better, (and the terminator) the apparitions would not stop killing until the enemies were dead and even though attack speed mods can increase their killing speed, with the current bs, the apparitions only attack three times however the bleeding damage speed cannot.

 

·       Because of the way it works, it makes shuriken not favoured in use due to the amount of energy bs costs when modding and how much damage it does and how quick enemies will be killed when activated. This make some people use bs over shuriken.

 

·       The marking mechanic makes the ability ineffective in close-quarter, tight spaces which is what  the majority of the tilesets are, this makes the ability less effective and mostly useless even more so it a team.

 

·       You can`t pick and choose what enemies you want to kill; (which people claim you can do) on paper it makes sense however in practise the idea is not useful. For example, if you wanted to mark an energy eximus in-between two other enemies and you only have enough energy to mark one enemy, you are not able to.

 

Reasons;

· Enemies are running around to where you will either run out of energy or you simply can`t mark the eximus.

· You will have to stand there trying to mark that one enemy.

· You have a chance to get hit by a stray bullet or by an explosion whether you use your 2nd ability or not.

· If you’re playing in a team, someone WILL take the kill from you.

· Teleport can do it better and is faster at it. (this alone destroys the purpose of using it that way)

 

Current bugs;

Spoiler

·      While using blade storm, pickups are attached to Ash`s body and get in the way visually.

·       When bs ends, the camera is fixed in one place and doesn’t move with Ash.

·       Make Ash consistently be able to teleport in and out of the same grates/fan instead of just one direction.

·       Make opening enemies up to finishers consistent with 3rd ability.

·       Sometime ash is glitched and stabbing the air and he is unseen when using bs due to camera angle.

·       Sometimes the visuals of the clones change from a hologram, original ash and ash prime look, make the “clones” look like whatever variant your using (like wukong`s 1st ability).

·       When blade storm is done, Ash doesn’t appear at the same place he started at but instead is teleports him in a different location.

 

Stats

At the time ash was ranked the number 1 favourite warframe by votes on Mogamu`s channel in 2016. Two years later he is one of the least played warframe stated by DE themselves on life of rio`s video in 2018.

Mogamu -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adLohAFoWQc 

Life of rio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJRx6oTxF1Y-

Think about, it this was over one ability change which means the other three abilities were not good enough on their own for some ppl to keep playing him.

 

The stats on the last devstream showed that Ash`s 1st was the most replaced ability and bladestorm being second. 

You would think the way ppl talk about his 2 and 3 that they would be close to his 1st but that's not the case. The ability that can do 2,000 damage at base, do slash damage, true damage and can increase his damage even more with the combo multi is the one that is 2nd, If bs is as good as ppl say it is why is it so high? by the way ppl talk about it, the bar should be lower than his 2 and 3 bars.

 

Here are more stats relating about Ash

Spoiler

 

 

 

Most subsumed ability

This is only 4th coz of it`s augment. The 1st ability is only good with it Augments should be used as an option and not coz the ability on its own is bad and even then it`s only good against high levels and against 1 faction in low level missions it`s useless.

 

Most ability that`s used on warframes

As you can see Ash`s is not on this list.

 

Most replaced abilities

Even through ppl like his 1st augment, it`s within the top 10 replaced abilities and the 4th the ppl love coz of the damage is the 22nd replaced, that alone says a lot. 

Me personally I don`t care about the H system that much but one thing I like about it is that it unveils the warframes and abilities that need a lookover and Ash is one of them, ppl are blind about Ash`s issues because he`s "good" at high levels and fits the meta but take the ability to deal damage away from him in a mission and what do you have left? 

 

Look/try for yourself

One thing to mention, have you noticed that if you search Ash on YouTube you will rarely see videos of ppl playing him with a team of other players, the person using bs and staying with the team why not? coz it proves that bs can`t be used in a team nor is he useful in a team (not including augments). There has been one person (TDefton) that played in a team and everything he was saying, his gameplay showed the opposite.

Spoiler

 

Go to these time points in the video. I know I`m starting in the mid of the video but it will make sense as you read on. This is him testing bs in the simulacrum.

7:00- 7:15: You notice how excited he get that he killed them all? Yh but you`re by yourself killing.

 

Here he is using bs in public.

2:44 – 2:55: It does matter when the point is to kill them but you can coz allies killed them off.

2:55- 3:04: What you saying doesn`t match what we are seeing. (pay attention to what he says vs what he`s showing)

4:18: He say he only targeted 2 enemies but the footage shows he marked more than that. Do I need to say why?

4:37: He`s on pc look how fast he`s moving his mouse all that for 1 enemy.

5:29- 5:36: Yes, it sounds good... ON PAPER, but in a co-op game in public in practise not so much

Ladies and gentlemen this is why ppl don`t show footage of Ash in a team, because that footage will prove the issues that Ash has and it`s not fun playing him in a team. Peoples reviews and showings of Ash`s bs is in the simulacrum BY THEMSELFS.

 

Here is a convo from someone in the comment section on youtube that I copied and pasted from, this person is able to see the issues Ash has. Very good analysis.

Spoiler

the marking mechanic is fun for awhile, but after playing for like 5 days you'll learn that its such an obnoxious mechanic especially running high level missions with never ending enemies, yeah good luck marking all of them OR trying to pick your targets, the marking mechanic becomes sloppy and unreliable. You waste so much time on marking enemies while your squad mates just farts and kill all the enemies around you. You cant mark enemies behind walls or hidden places yet you know they are there because your radar shows it in red dots, its so annoying. Play style now changes to just quickly swiping your mouse left and right to efficiently mark as many enemies as you can with 3 marks per enemy... try playing like that for 20 mins. so fun.

 

 At the end of the day you start thinking, why should i use BS when you have other BETTER means to dispatch groups of enemies? like just using your Zarr, aim and shoot. done. lol Zarr even have a secondary function that shoots like a shot gun, so this rifle is able to dish out a good AoE damage AND close quarter killing, a more faster and efficient weapon than an Ultimate...

 

Ash is the only Warframe in the game that has a two step activation Ultimate. Every other Warframe's Ultimate are instant. Banshee, Saryn, Mag, Frost, Loki, Mesa etc doesnt matter, the Ultimate is done in a fast manner, no other Warframe needs to "aim" or "mark" their targets. Imagine Ember's WoF needs to mark her targets first THEN the fires will burn em. or Frost, Saryn or Mag needs to mark their targets in order to freeze, poison or crush them. hahaha Loki's Irradiated Disarm, Mark your targets first THEN disarm them... yeah in a fast paced game like Warframe it just doesnt work. (I SAY THIS ALL THE BLOODY TIME)

 The simple solution to BS is just reverting it back to the old mechanic but increase the energy use for BS in increments so that BS cant be spammed (but used as a well placed calculated attack) and allies are able to kill Ash's marked enemies (and perhaps gain some bonus buff from it). Thats it. problem solved. Yet... we got THIS rework (nerf). similar to the sentinel vacuum scenario, 1 simple way to solve a problem but DE gave us the most convoluted way imaginable as their solution. So no, Bladestorm is not a good change at all. Its the worst Warframe rework to date.

 

Its funny how "ooh ASH is too OP please nerf him DE" and guess what? DE listened, yet you have this Warframe that is able to HEAL AND GIVE ENERGY to ALL WARFRAMES and even after several reworks, Trinity is still a powerful frame because inherently, she is the master of 2 of the most important mechanics in the game that is HP and ENERGY....sure thats not OP. whats so wrong about Ash killing 17 enemies?

 

TDefton`s Reply;

I agree with you to an extent. I fee that it is the worst rework in comparison to all of the others. They could have done a much better job, but I feel that the energy/damage isn't that bad, you just have to gave the right build. 

But yes, they could have done a much better job 😕

 

I don`t understand, you said you liked this, if that’s the case why are you saying now that DE could have done better? Why didn’t you say this in the video?

 

Go take him to Earth defence, a place where damage don`t matter with a team and use bs and you will see what will happen.

Imagine this. You`re  running around, marking every enemy, you search for them behind corners which takes a bit of time your like yes I have 7 enemies marked (even through the indicator shows 21 marks which it really shouldn't but anyway) so you go look for some more, you look at you indicator again and now you have 0 marks your like what the heck just happened? so you do the marking process again looking for enemies behind corner then you see Oberon use his 4th and take your kills all that running around all that hard work gone to waste.

The point is you have to mark enemies individually and in that time someone just can take your kills with less effort, of you think that`s bad imaging do it by yourself and see how long that will take you to complete.

 

Here is a video which shows that he can`t kill level six enemies with another player because of the marking mechanic.

Spoiler

 

 

Let’s go into detail what we see in the footage.

·       When Oberon cast his 4th Ash get two out of six kills.

·       You will see the bs indicator going from six marks down to two marks due to Oberon.

·       You will see that I activated bs (the 2nd part of bs`s activation) before Oberon put his hand down in his animation and he still killed more than me, If I activated the marking and Oberon activated his 4 at the same time Oberon would have probably taken all of my kills due to quick activation.

·       If you look at the clone that looks like my Ash, you will notice that it didn`t even finish the killing animation move coz Oberon slammed the enemy 1st but somehow the clone was able to kill it.

·       You also see the inconsistencies with the clone`s appearance, one looks like my customised Ash while the other looks like a hologram.

 

This makes no sense, he can deal over 2,000 damage but he can`t kill level 6 enemies in a team (or with someone), the way bs is now it only can be used in high level missions and open spaces vs old bs where it can be used anywhere. If you`re still not convinced after all this just go do a defence mission on Earth with a team and you will see what happens with the amount of kills you will get.

I said it once and i`ll say it again, the marking mechanic should never be tied to damage EVER! and if the marking mechanic was given to Saryn, Ember, Equinox, Banshee and Mesa`s 4th NO ONE WOULD USE THEM ANYMORE which proves why it`s bad on Ash.

 

I was the only one back in July 2016 when they showed the new bs that expressed the issues with the change and again in 2018 and I got ridiculed for it because ppl think that DE`s ideas is better than the average persons ideas. Just to get off topic, ppl love the necromechs but I bet if someone suggested it way before they created it, they would get shut down for it (which I see happen a lot on here unfortunately).

Imo warframe abilities should work in low and high level mission, a good example of this is Nezha`s 2nd ability, at low levels it can kill, in high levels it can make enemies vulnerable to damage and can give health and energy no matter where you are. 

I`m not trying to be funny, if you like Ash that totally fine I still play him 21.5% of the time (my most player warframe) but I'm not going to going to be illogical, stick my head in the sand and deny what I see. You can deny it all you want and say "Ash is perfect" or "he`s in a good place" but the stats and ppl`s actions says otherwise. I just want ppl to take the red pill and wake up to his issues and to give him a revisit he deserves.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

The issue is people trying to use public matches as a way to give every frame a nuke or the ability to be able to kill something faster than another person. It's a one-track minded and ego-driven way to try to change a frame.

Attack speed speeds up the animation of blade storm. It's amazing, you should try it sometime. This means with Primed fury and/or a riven that has attack speed, your blade storm is much more efficient and flows way better for general usage.

You also shouldn't be marking enemies and then sitting there staring at them...you can mark enemies in one direction, then go kill other enemies in the other direction.

Also keep in mind, all starchart spawns are thin to begin with. There are simply not enough spawns in any regular mission to accommodate the playstyles of any 4 players anyways. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

Shuriken is mostly fine—Yes, they could probably fold the augment into it but his kit is lenient enough to fit it according to preference.

Smokescreen is fine—It's invisibility.

Teleport is fine. It works, and with the augment, it really works.

Bladestorm is onerous to use but entirely effective. This is by design.

Why? Youtubers (like Mogamu.  In fact... including Mogamu) were the first to offer Ash-hole Builds built around Bladestorm for their damage (only to remove those videos when people complained about builds like that and the youtubers suggesting them). 

If you want Ash and Bladestorm for AOE then what you actually want is a different frame altogether... Because what you want is precisely why Ash got changed to begin with.

Bladestorm isn't, and has never been, an AOE... It's a single target attack that can be launched against a series of enemies at once.

[killerJoke66]

51 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

 

but then again how bladestorm is any effective when normal meleeing with an okay build on a random melee does the job faster without spending any energy whatsoever ? thats why people replace bs secondly .

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

15 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

but then again how bladestorm is any effective when normal meleeing with an okay build on a random melee does the job faster without spending any energy whatsoever ? thats why people replace bs secondly .

Because it's about options and variety. Not sure why people keep constantly saying "why use x when y exists".

Don't you think the game is just fine with 1 stealth frame, 1 dps, one defense and 1 "healer"? Yea, but there's gonna be more stuff added on because the game is more than just for efficient meta users.

Why do people use the Bramma if we have melee, then? Melee doesn't even need ammo, right? 

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

but then again how bladestorm is any effective when normal meleeing with an okay build on a random melee does the job faster without spending any energy whatsoever ? thats why people replace bs secondly .

Because you can do it from the next room over with BS... While clearing mobs in the current room with melee.

You can also Teleport during it for I-frames.

The question has never been about how "effective" BS is...BS is plenty effective. Target something with it and that something will likely die.

Tenno's complaints center around it's efficiency... Which wrongly assumes that it ever was an efficient ability. It simply isn't and it never has been.

Before it was like watching Knights of the Round from old FF7 and now it has to be manually targeted (which isn't particularly hard for mouse/KB) but can be forgotten once fired.

Sure they could iterate on it and make it less clunky to use...But then you'd abuse it and DE, already sensitive to complaints about it, would nerf it.

The simpler move instead is to either:

• Learn to like BladeStorm as-is because it's clunky on purpose.
• Stop relying on Bladestorm as an AOE Nuke.
• Stop playing Ash.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

All Ash really could use is for range to affect the size of his reticle during Blade Storm. Would make marking targets faster and less of a pain.

And an increase to Invis duration as I think we’ve move far and beyond the tiny little niche details of frames making big differences.

[Mazrou]

Make ash great again

[BDMblue]

I would make his 4 a over time effect that causes a shadow to kill enemies in a certain range. Maybe make it kind of like now how they get the symbol over there head. Change it from 3 means max damage to 3 means the effect goes off and the shadow attacks. Make kills on enemy’s with a bleed effect adds a stack to those around it.

 

so it would start slow and chain kill a room as soon as things start ding. Would be a fun uniquish ability.

[Hypernaut1]

i think its a great testament to frame design and balance today when frames like Ash, Nekros, Hydroid, Frost are considered frame that "need" reworks.

[Tesseract7777]

9 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i think its a great testament to frame design and balance today when frames like Ash, Nekros, Hydroid, Frost are considered frame that "need" reworks.

I think it shows how well they were designed, no question.

That said, I think we can have a middleground between "needs a rework" and "frame that is ancient in ancient years is totally 100% okay never change anything" (not that I'm saying either of those are your positions, just my thoughts). 

I certainly wouldn't say any of those frames are priorities in terms of all the things DE needs to do with the game in general though.

As for Ash, I honestly just want a few modernity updates and a couple qol tweaks.

Maybe let me hold to mark enemies in a reticle as an option at least, instead of spinning my mouse back and forth and getting queasy (I legit have motion sickness problems though so I know that may mostly be a personal problem). 

Let me choose to join BS or not when using Teleport during it. Let me hold to cast extra shurikens for more energy in a small radius since it's an increasingly horde based game. Maybe add a slight functionality to something like Smokescreen where it leaves behind a smoke cloud for a small duration that blinds enemies or something idk. I honestly think he holds up great, but a few small qol of life tweaks to make him feel a bit fresh couldn't hurt, same with Frost. 

[BRZZAFK]

22小时前 , (PS4)Madurai-Prime 说:

Because it's about options and variety. Not sure why people keep constantly saying "why use x when y exists".

Don't you think the game is just fine with 1 stealth frame, 1 dps, one defense and 1 "healer"? Yea, but there's gonna be more stuff added on because the game is more than just for efficient meta users.

Why do people use the Bramma if we have melee, then? Melee doesn't even need ammo, right? 

In this logic DE dont have to buff anything right? Because it's not about efficient it's about "variety" right? In fact. Since efficient and meta is irrelevent. There's no reason complain to any thing DE nerfed. Because how easy the game is and no matter how hard they nerf it. It can still get the job done and provide "variety" right?