why are most people against pvp being in Warframe?

[S.Dust]

1 hour ago, (NSW)VenTheWeeb said:

it seems like a lot of people don't want Conclave to improve and/or just want it removed from the game completely. like I get that pvp games always have more toxic players but pve games can have them so Warframe already has those players like sure you can argue that it will get worse because somehow improved conclave = attracting more of these players but is that really gonna ruin your experience like you can just mute them. 

I'm vibing with conclave but the main reason people tend to be ok with it never improving is because DE has shown they cant really do too many things at once and when they focus on one thing another gets delayed for years. The community feels that if DE pays attention to one thing that other things are getting starved of attention, this is because DE just has a history is bad time management or taking forever to release what they announce.

[xombob89]

I dont really have strong feelings about it, its sorta like that one plastic houseplant thats always there but nobody really pays attention to it or cares about it. 

But I must admit that the time spent by the devs on the conclave would be better spent elsewhere, improving other aspects of the game. Warframe is a PvE game and its not designed to work well as a PvP game so why bother with it. 

Personally I would never play PvP, theres always some tryhard with some borderline cheat build/tactic that just outright obliterates you so I dont find the idea of it very appealing. Theres better games for PvP if you like it. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PSN)Madurai-Prime:

People can't even handle fighting the enemy AI....they had to be nerfed. They couldn't handle getting killed by a lich.....how're they gonna handle getting beat up repeatedly by some premade group full of trinities, wukongs, and nidus'?

who? i think pvp in warframe is boring. you can make pvp interesting, but there are too many alternatives. and other teams specialize in it.
pvE is the strength of warframe. therefore it is only worth expanding that.

besides, what do i get from win / lose in pvp? any sausage mod or skin that I don't want at all? devs have to motivate the players.

and i can't imagine how difficult one can have with lich. or some think that stalker on SE is a tough challenge... Now seriously? "weak" warframe without buffs and mods and with 4 keys equiped knocks him out with vaz dash from the operator with eyes closed. and that is not the only possibility ... 🤦‍♂️🤔🤦‍♂️

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Battle.Mage said:

and i can't imagine how difficult one can have with lich

We don't. But remember when Liches could instakill you if your requiem mods were in the right order? Remember how that got removed? There's a subset of people who think it was removed because "a bunch of special snowflakes got their feelings hurt". As opposed to real life, where it was a terrible idea that goes against all conventions of correct game design, and was removed to make the game better

[FRTE_Ret5o]

Lag, thats the only reason.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb FRTE_Ret5o:

Lag, thats the only reason.

nah ... i played aliens vs predator, kingpin etc. also with lag. that is not the reason or at least not the only one ...

[RobWasHere]

PvP could be fun but it's unbalanced mess and has to be rewritten again. Hikou/Nikana and Opticor game modes proved that to be successful it needs to be limited what players can do and closely monitored so every player has a chance, but that requires effort DE cannot have due to 'rona and already delayed annouced important content.

IMO, conclave should be limited to Excal, Ash, Volt, Frost and Trin to fit different archetypes then limit the weapons to one from each weapon category, Braton, Latron, Burston Strun/Corinth, Paris/Cernos, Vectis and so on. And stamina need to be back. Otherwise it's never gonna be balanced to be enjoyable for everyone.

[VenTheWeeb]

all of these replies shed some new light for me. I agree that Conclave is pointless for the most part and I can see why some people think "why update the pvp, if only a small portion of the community plays it". I mean I wouldn't mind if they updated conclave but imo the story and railjack should be the priority rather than pvp

[Paranoicon]

I'm going to step off the sh¡tflinging, someone else can take care of that, and give you a proper reason.

TL;DR: Enhanced mobility makes a PvP mode inherently hard to balance, due to the skill floor and skill ceilings innate to the proper usage of parkour mechanics. A low player count, and skill floors raised by the experience of regular players only make the mode more difficult to get into.

Now for the not-so-condensed version:

So, I can't really say that I'm huge on PvP modes, but if they're interesting enough, and have some sort of safety net for newcomers (which is usually matchmaking), I can tolerate them. I remember trying Conclave a couple of years back, early 2017. I could tell you that I got torn a new hole, but I don't know that it would even cut it. It became pretty clear to me that there was no enjoyment I could find in any of the Conclave modes. And if I ain't gonna enjoy it, I ain't gonna bother with it. Reckon my clanmates at the time thought much the same, and I'm willing to bet that's the mindset of most WF players. They don't want to bother with a gamemode that has a, what? 5-6 year old skill floor at this point? The people that have been playing Conclave have been for the longest time, they know all the tips and tricks. A newcomer will have to be fine with either constantly losing matches, or being carried by the rest of their team. I know folks ain't too keen on the former, and at least I really dislike the latter.

How does DE get any new blood into that circuit? Well, for the longest time, they couldn't.

For the longest time.

They've had a number of things they could add to the Conclave, new gamemodes that don't utilize the enhanced mobility to bring everyone into a more level playing field. Necramechs and K-drives primarily.

As for DE dedicating time and resources to the Conclave, I can understand why people say that it takes resources and time from other sorts of content. Thing is, that could not be true. Pretty much any company that's produced a game with both PvE and PvP modes in the last five or six years has had two separate departments. One takes care of the PvP mode exclusively, while the other takes care of the PvE mode exclusively. But it's not like it ends here either. Because most of those games see regular, high player engagement on both modes.

That's not really the case here. So why would DE even be bothered to make a PvP department if the PvP side of the playerbase is not large enough to warrant it? Far as it goes, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. The regular PvPers are not enough that DE would set apart an entire department for them, maybe a small team at most, but they are not so few to simply remove the mode outright. To summarize:

37 minutes ago, Corvid said:

DE neglected PvP because players weren't interested

And at that point, it was just a snake eating it's own tail. People don't get into PvP because DE neglects it, and DE doesn't put more attention into PvP because it doesn't have enough players. There's no new people getting into the Conclave because of how high the skill floor is, and the skill floor keeps getting higher because there are no new people getting into the Conclave. People don't want resources dedicated to a gamemode they don't play, but DE can't just scrap it because however many players it has is just enough that it wouldn't be worth losing them.

EDIT: Also

35 minutes ago, S.Dust said:

DE just has a history of bad time management

DE has a history of bad management in general. Check ex-employee reviews on Glass Door if anyone thinks I'm bluffing.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb RobWasHere:

PvP could be fun but it's unbalanced mess and has to be rewritten again. Hikou/Nikana and Opticor game modes proved that to be successful it needs to be limited what players can do and closely monitored so every player has a chance, but that requires effort DE cannot have due to 'rona and already delayed annouced important content.

IMO, conclave should be limited to Excal, Ash, Volt, Frost and Trin to fit different archetypes then limit the weapons to one from each weapon category, Braton, Latron, Burston Strun/Corinth, Paris/Cernos, Vectis and so on. And stamina need to be back. Otherwise it's never gonna be balanced to be enjoyable for everyone.

Yes. that's been done in other games for a long time. only there did they calculate and compare everything for months or more in Excel. and still tears flow in the forum every day.

the effort is not worth it. devs can do it differently: win or lose play no role. BUT! you get useful items for pvE. the whole thing can be realized with dailies.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (NSW)VenTheWeeb:

all of these replies shed some new light for me. I agree that Conclave is pointless for the most part and I can see why some people think "why update the pvp, if only a small portion of the community plays it". I mean I wouldn't mind if they updated conclave but imo the story and railjack should be the priority rather than pvp

there are good quests for new players. and railjack ... yes. huge construction site.

by the way: i need the same button as in railjack to find the game for liches. without a lfg i hardly find any group in the start chart.

[Cmdr-A]

Why people are against PVP? Because the game already is a PVE based game first and foremost. People came to WF for the kill em all face paced shoot, not slow arena where are the players PVP and then getting instagibbed having to wait to respawn and then repeat process of hide and seek. PVP is also generally far more toxic which people try to avoid because player interaction where they're pittied against one another tends to end up with bad tastes in peoples mouths.

Why a lot of people avoid PVP in Destiny and why people hate Destiny for it because they force you into it to get a lot of the games exotic weapons via some vapid completely irrelevant to PVP quest or to finish their catalyst all based within it. Its just not fun for majority of people and the only people who do play PVP are the ones who play it because they enjoy it. Its just there to appease the people who wanted it in the first place. Otherwise if it wasn't asked for I doubt it'd ever exist in the first place.

Its why I hate Mechwarrior Online but barely tolerated it. I wanted big stompy mech shoot but was forced into a PVP only environment and as one can expect with PVP. Everyone is so salty and toxic. PVP is just best avoided because there'll always be the predators and the prey. The skill gaps always make it too apparent because not everyone is as good as others. So its best to avoid it at all costs.

I really don't like PVP at all myself for most of these reasons which is also why I despise the index and rathuum. Its slow, cumbersome PVP styled PVE. You're spending majority of the time searching for one or two enemies to kill and then repeat the process over and over again. Its not fun sitting in an enclosed map for extended periods of time.

Also I do agree with some people in the thread about it taking developmental resources from one place to another. PVP is just a dead gamemode, it really doesn't need any treatment. If anything it should be up and removed, and move on from it. Any and all resources put towards it should be directed towards PVE content, IE: The majority of the game.

[Aldain]

Oh also one last thing about PvP that is a minor, but noteworthy issue.

It also stops all player progression dead because the rewards for PvP aren't tied to anything else. That could have been alleviated by something as simple as a few bundles of resources upon match completion so the player gets something out of it other than PvP standing, but as it is unlike other Syndicates you pretty much can't progress with PvP and PvE at the same time.

Even Destiny technically has that cross progression since the weapons dropped can be used for combat/infusion in either mode, but you can't get anything that will help with the lion's share of Warframe's progression in PvP, which further reduces reasons to play it.

[(XBOX)Dark SalvationX]

I actually spend most my time in conclave and its not that its not balanced, because it mostly is, everything has a hard counter.  But a few th are bugged. There is a list in the conclave section. I cant link it.

I enjoy conclave and so do many people and most players have been there a very long time. My clan has over 50 active pvp players.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 hours ago, Hearsay said:

Because very few people who play Warframe enjoy PvP.  And considering that PvP takes a lot of constant care and attention it is seen as taking resources that could have been directed towards working on parts of the game most people care about.

And because PVP would require everything be more or less balanced for that environment. 

 

And because fighting other players jumping all over creation isnt fun.

[(XBOX)Dark SalvationX]

Spoiler

Conclave is the most unique pvp of fast paced custom builds and melee game play. So much freedom, and everyone has it, the older or longer they play the more fun it is.  Personally i have 130k kills in conclave, play almost every night with friends in conclave for fun. 

Its most likely never being removed, if you dislike pvp why bother talking about it? You dont have to play it. 

It would be 100x better witgh server, maybe even leader boreds.

 

 

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

I miss the death animation, it felt as if something out there could actually beat us. I only discovered people hated dying to them on the forum, in game no one I met cared

me too. I came back after a break, played a lich, had it break my back and thought "cool, cant wait to get my revenge" came to forum expecting others to think it was coo, but there was just vicious vitriol spewing everywhere. i still dont get what the big deal was. Its the same thing now (with a fail state) except you get an animation that's sensitive to your feelings. 

[Cmdr-A]

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)Dark SalvationX said:

Its most likely never being removed, if you dislike pvp why bother talking about it? You dont have to play it. 

*looks at title of thread* Hmmmmm. Maybe because the topic of the thread is literally asking why people their opinions on why they don't like PVP in Warframe or don't play it? What kind of question is this even?

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, Paranoicon said:

And at that point, it was just a snake eating it's own tail. People don't get into PvP because DE neglects it, and DE doesn't put more attention into PvP because it doesn't have enough players.

I'd point out that DE made no fewer than three distinct attempts to get a PvP community going (Colosseum (AKA 2V2 Duels), Dark Sector Conflicts V2 and the modern Conclave), each with increasing amounts of support invested into them (Conclave in particular received regular map, weapon and class updates for a fairly long time after launch), yet none managed to maintain anything bigger than a niche community.

At some point, one has to accept that the audience simply isn't there.

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, Duality52 said:

Only problem is that players were dying to a slot machine/dice roll. That is outside of the player's control, especially since the Lich got downed.

For myself, the problem was that it wasn't even a dice roll.  The way the Requiums are set up means that attacking your lich without already *knowing* all three runes was almost *certain* to result in "Death by Cutscene."  There was no player skill, no option to resist or possibility of outsmarting it or outplaying it.  Attack Lich = Get one-shot.

That's aside from the part where it didn't even fit the concept - a Lich is an undead horror that *just won't die.*  And instead we got a smart-ass Grineer version of Bane, who just *can't be killed* until finding the password and instead kills *the player* over and over and over and over and over and over for interacting with them.

[Aldain]

Just now, EmberStar said:

For myself, the problem was that it wasn't even a dice roll.  The way the Requiums are set up means that attacking your lich without already *knowing* all three runes was almost *certain* to result in "Death by Cutscene."  There was no player skill, no option to resist or possibility of outsmarting it or outplaying it.  Attack Lich = Get one-shot.

That's aside from the part where it didn't even fit the concept - a Lich is an undead horror that *just won't die.*  And instead we got a smart-ass Grineer version of Bane, who just *can't be killed* until finding the password and instead kills *the player* over and over and over and over and over and over for interacting with them.

It doesn't matter how rationally or logistically you paint the picture, certain people will just project that it is because our "feelings" got hurt to make it conform with their world views.

"I can eat feces and like it, that means everyone who can't/won't is worse than me" is a popular "argument" these days for anything in gaming and god do I hate it.

[ChaoticEdge]

reason why they are against pvp is this clown show...

Spoiler

 

 

[EmberStar]

Anyway, to respond to at least the title of the thread:  I'm against PVP being in Warframe because it's a waste of dev time and resources.  Warframe is not balanced for PVP, it's not well suited for it, and I personally think it doesn't belong here.  People who want to get their digital murder on have almost *every other online game* to go stab people in the neck.  In fact in most other games it feels like the reverse happens - they throw more and more resources at the PVP (because you don't need to do complicated expensive things like "voice acting" and "bare minimum story") and ignore the PVE component more and more.  Do you like the art style of Fortnite but don't want to PVP?  Too bad, the "Save the World" PVE mode is dead.  Did you like the single player campaign in Battlefield/Call of Duty/Medal of Headshooting:  Honor of War?  Too bad, they dropped the single player campaign to cram in a Battle Royale mode.  Do you want to play a Star Wars shooter that isn't almost old enough to get a driver's license?  Hope you like getting pwned by 69BobbaFetish69 over and over, or playing the "amazing" five hour "story mode" in Battlefront.

[Hypernaut1]

33 minutes ago, Aldain said:

It doesn't matter how rationally or logistically you paint the picture, certain people will just project that it is because our "feelings" got hurt to make it conform with their world views.

"I can eat feces and like it, that means everyone who can't/won't is worse than me" is a popular "argument" these days for anything in gaming and god do I hate it.

but it is about feelings. Its the exact same thing now, except you dont get your back broken. The lich disappearing is still a fail state. Its still based on a process of elimination RNG. To me, losing a revive isnt really "dying", it simply a healthbar gate. We have 6 of them. Its not like you failed the mission and lose your pickups. 

[TARINunit9]

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

but it is about feelings. Its the exact same thing now, except you dont get your back broken. The lich disappearing is still a fail state. Its still based on a process of elimination RNG. To me, losing a revive isnt really "dying", it simply a healthbar gate. We have 6 of them. Its not like you failed the mission and lose your pickups. 

As much as you want to be objective about it, gaming is about more than numbers. We do not play games to see numbers in a computer change based on our input, we play games to see superpowered space ninjas blow up starships with magical archery weapons and laser cannons.

This is not "a random number generator told me that I guessed wrong, this removes one of my health bar safety nets." This is "I defeated the Lich in a duel, with MY weapons and MY skills, but somehow HE wins anyway. That is wrong!"