We really need a auction house for non-riven items.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb BDMblue:

Those web pages have already tanked prices. Having an in game auction house would tank them even more.

that also destroys revenue for devs. at the beginning i bought my warframes for 250-300p. those were good prices in the past.
but in recent years you can get top warframes for 40-50p. khora still costs 325p.
the result is: less money for devs and new content is difficult to finance. ridiculous drop rates are therefore compulsory because they are used to motivate platium purchases.

competition is always very cool for players. but that will destroy the company over time. if nobody buys regularly from DE, the devs are bankrupt or there are mediocre updates once a year.

many seem to live in some fairy tale world and have no idea of reality. I have often bought things from DE that I don't really need. all because i like updates and devs have to eat something. and not only that...

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

3 minutes ago, MontyCulligan said:

I don't really care either way, but you should know that the logic in your argument is flawed. You are conflating the whole with its constituent parts.

The #3 argument isn't making the claim that the warframe market and an auction house are equivalent (i.e. "the same in every respect"). It merely states that one characteristic of both of them are the same: namely that the economic effect created by them would be equal. There are obviously other characterstics between them that are different. And those characteristics are the basis for the argument to have an auction house (ex. convenience).

You are unintentionally twisting that argument to say that they are claiming it to be completely equivalent. Debating along those lines would be fruitless. Another way to put this is that both sides of this argument are using the word "same" to mean different things, so that argument would go in circles. But anyway, like I said, I'm not really on either side.

The crux of the argument is "one characteristic of both of them are the same: namely that the economic effect created by them would be equal" is false. 

My argument is actually, they are hardly the same in *any* respect. Let alone every. And people like to point to warframe market's existence as supporting evidence anyway.

 

I am not "unintentionally" doing anything.

 

I dont think its rational to assert that the economic impact of X and Y would be the same either way because i believe the differences between the two are too big to just ignore. 

Again, just to recap:

X) warframe market is used by a subset of the playerbase. Not in game.

X) using warframe market still requires both the seller and buyer to be online at the same time and meet up in game to make a sale. 

Y) an "auction house" would be an in game option for the entire playerbase. Not just the small subset willing to wade through a third party service. 

Y) an "auction house" would, presumably, allow you to post items for sale and not even have to bother to be online, let alone meet with another player in game, to make a sale.

 

Convenience has a direct result on prices in this game. Its why arcane and prime sets are worth more than individual parts, its why anyone would buy an unvaulted prime set at all, and so on. 

[Xaero]

I only want to be able to buy the items directly without having to play at the same time as seller does.

You know, I found a perfect Skiajati riven on wf.market and PMed the seller. Unfortunately, this seller has abandoned the game a day before that. It's been about 3 months since.

[vanaukas]

41 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

That website was a mistake

Yep, I agree completely.

[MontyCulligan]

30 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Quote

The crux of the argument is "one characteristic of both of them are the same: namely that the economic effect created by them would be equal" is false. 

My argument is actually, they are hardly the same in *any* respect. Let alone every. And people like to point to warframe market's existence as supporting evidence anyway.

I was referring to their argument with that particular statement, not any of yours :)

 

Quote

I dont think its rational to assert that the economic impact of X and Y would be the same either way because i believe the differences between the two are too big to just ignore. 

That's a better assertion than your original first "have your cake and eat it too" argument. To repeat myself, I'm not advocating either side.

[Kaiga]

In an automatic auction house, trading becomes a race to the bottom, in which the sheer volume of sellers just looking to undercut each other for the quickest payout from a much smaller number of buyers means the competitive price of items bottoms out, making the items not worth farming in the first place for trading purposes, therefore meaning less items, and plat moving in the market.

The devs make money by selling plat. The less plat items are worth, the less incentive people have to buy large amounts, and also the less profit people who do merchant the items can rake in.

We get it, you want to easy sell your items for quick plat and not get beat by online users, but that's not how a healthy economy looks. You have to put in the effort.

[PublikDomain]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Sizeable portion ≠ majority.

So a sizeable portion of users already use external trade tools. The number of users online on warframe.market is currently ~3/8ths the size of the current online Steam playerbase. That's not too far off from an actual majority, and that's comparing people trading to people who are just playing the game normally!

A more fair comparison would be to compare warframe.market's userbase to the ingame trade chat user list, but I guarantee you that name list isn't over 11,500 entries long.

34 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

The rate of collapse definitely would.

I could be off on the definition since I don't have my textbook in front of me, but it sounds like you're trying to say "new items will get cheaper faster". Yes, they probably would. But they already drop quickly to begin with, Nezha Prime for example only took about a month to get down to current prices. Does it make a difference if this happens in a week instead? Not really.

If I'm off on that, maybe you can read me a story from your textbook and help me understand.

46 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Or that multiple people have indicated on this thread that we have stockpiles that we don't bother to sell and wouldn't hesitate to drop them onto your suggested system at below going rate because even at reduced prices it would be a quick infusion of plat at low effort?

Considering that the effort required to list an item on warframe.market and list an item through a similar system ingame is identical, I think you're just being dishonest. If you haven't done this already, then I don't think you'd do it later. You can already list these items for whatever price you'd like on warframe.market, or even just sell your items to active buyers instead. You're after a quick buck, and these people actively want to buy your items ASAP. There's tons of easy plat just waiting to be made, no account required! Just click a button, paste a message into chat, and carry out the trade.

And yet you haven't done this, despite the effort required being identical to what I've suggested.

You mention stockpiles elsewhere as well, so we can address those together:

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

making it easier for everyone to trade will encourage people who have stockpiles to do so rather than just ignoring the plat we could be easily collecting. This increases the number of concurrent sellers, reducing prices and hurting the economy.

Even if you did dump your stockpile, after liquidating it you and the few others looking to make a quick buck would no longer have a stockpile. You'd make a little blip in the charts and things would continue on as before.

Though I think it's far more likely that sellers sitting on a stockpile continue to sit on their stockpiles until the prices are more favorable, which is what they do already. I've got plenty of sets in my stockpile that I don't advertise because the current price is too low. If I wait, which costs me nothing, then I will make more money later.

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

You're looking at an average of the listed prices on warframe.market

It's the median price, actually, though the average isn't far off.

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

And if you really want to see the race to zero, just take a look at the spread of prices and ask yourself why so many of them are at below a quarter of the highest asking price. Race to zero. 

Because some people want to make a quick buck. And despite that, the price of Nova Prime sets is still increasing, as are many other sets. And "below a quarter"? In what way is 65 less than 20?

The spread on Nova Prime sets is a steady 15p, and you find that same kind of spread throughout the market. I think it'd be fair to chalk that spread up to people fulfilling lower buy requests and unresponsive sellers pushing people to the next highest seller.

55 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

You pay 20 plat per item for the junk you trade to Baro? No? What a surprise. So you made a really embarrassing error there. But it really does highlight what is going to happen to the prices of the items you are looking to sell. The vast majority of items will plummet in worth, because as you just demonstrated, those prime junk sellers are your competition. 

You've got that a little backwards. It's not prime junk sellers, it's prime junk buyers. When you look at trade chat, that's what you find: people throwing out tiny offers into the wind in the hopes that some dupe takes them up on it. Someone responding to those kinds of predatory WTBs is someone that wants plat fast. But if that seller has a searchable trade board like warframe.market, they can see that the item someone wants to buy from them for a pittance is actually worth far more than that.

So why would this seller sell to the guy offering less than 1p per item and not the guy offering 20p per item? Why would this seller, who wants the money, choose the lesser of the two offers? What an embarrassing assumption! 😳

1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

try to find someone who can help you to understand

I know, it's hard to understand when you're the one teaching.

[(NSW)Rafa-el]

AH is a democratic place to all Tenno to sell stuff easy.

this is bad for the ppl that is expert in the external web.

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb (NSW)Rafa-el:

AH is a democratic place to all Tenno to sell stuff easy.

this is bad for the ppl that is expert in the external web.

some soup ... and what the hell does it have to do with democratic?
if someone is unable to use google, how can they go to the bathroom without their parents? these are basics.

[PublikDomain]

You say that because you never bothered to read my argument or understand my position.

I was not saying that warframe.market and an automated auction house are equivalent.

If you thought I was, it's because you didn't bother to read what I wrote.

I was saying that because warframe.market exists, it does not matter where it is located.

It could be located on a fansite, or it could be located on the dark web, or it could be located inside the game. The functionality already exists, and it already has a massive userbase. There are a third as many people on warframe.market right now as there are playing Warframe on Steam. Like, seriously.

So it does not matter if this functionality exists inside the game or outside the game, because it already exists and sees massive use.

Which brings us to this:

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

If warframe market is the same as an ingame auction house then cool. You already have your ingame auction house.

Claiming that the game shouldn't reach parity with external fansites is equivalent to saying that DE shouldn't add tooltips and explain how the game works because the wikia exists. They shouldn't improve the input system with features like auto-melee, auto-shoot, or auto-cast, because macros already exist. They shouldn't add colorblind support because colorblind users can use software to change their displays.

"DE should never improve the game where players can come up with a solution themselves."

Which is silly.

Obviously the game should have good tutorializing, address user experience problems, and improve the user experience as a whole. Obviously the trade system is due for improvements when it's got the feature set of Runescape's trade system in 2005.

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Battle.Mage:

some soup ... and what the hell does it have to do with democratic?
if someone is unable to use google, how can they go to the bathroom without their parents? these are basics.

Everything in trade chat is massively overpriced. It’s basically a way to scam players who don’t know about Warframe.market. An ingame auction house would be obvious to everyone. This would be bad for people who are raking in plat through price gouging right now.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

You also still have to be online and meet the other player in order to actually make the trade. You cant just dump every spare part you have and come back in x amount of hours or days and see stuff sold without any further action necessary from you. 

For example, if you read a single thing I wrote you'd know these features aren't what I was talking about.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Krankbert:

Everything in trade chat is massively overpriced. It’s basically a way to scam players who don’t know about Warframe.market. An ingame auction house would be obvious to everyone. This would be bad for people who are raking in plat through price gouging right now.

just not! I have often received things as gifts or just give beginners top items for free. in addition, many want to pay more with WTB messages than on the website. today i sold significantly for less plat carrier p to a beginner than on the website.
and whoever thinks there is some kind of scum there has no idea of reality. everyone sets their OWN prices for their OWN items. if somebody want to dictate any prices to me, then i would like to forward him/she to the insane asylum in his/her area. then he/she can reveal laws of the universe to napoleon there.
There is more than enough competition there and you are constantly undercut or whatever.

and again .... google ???, "player helping players" in the forum, alliance chat ... etc.
Now seriously...🤦‍♂️

[nslay]

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

How exactly? I dont think making products more accessible makes prices drop, having too much of them does tho but thats not WF Market's fault, its the player base for farming too much of a given item that is/might be on demand.

Having access to a sort of Market Interface or Auction House Ingame wouldnt affect marketing negatively, it would allow players to Buy/Sell items without having to Alt-Tab to view a third party site or wait for another player to be online/available to trade at a certain moment so it would pretty much speed up the search for items and sales.
Warframe Market also has the issue that the player selling the item has to manually update their market page whenever something is sold and many times players forget to do so, end up getting other players upset when they contact that seller to find out the item was already sold.

Probably because there are more honest sellers than there are price gougers and swindlers. The honest sellers will give a fair price that more reflects the rarity than the swindlers... I think Ignis Wraith blueprint is a good example of the honest seller vs swindler seller. The honest seller knows the Ignis Wraith Blueprint value is 0 plat because it costs 15k credits to replicate from a dojo. The latter preys on new player ignorance to charge new players plat to get an Ignis Wraith blueprint. Warframe.market, a hypothetical auction house, etc... will better reveal the true value of items to newer and less experienced players.

[Krankbert]

Gerade eben schrieb Battle.Mage:

just not! I have often received things as gifts or just give beginners top items for free. in addition, many want to pay more with WTB messages than on the website. today i sold significantly for less plat carrier p to a beginner than on the website.
and whoever thinks there is some kind of scum there has no idea of reality. everyone sets their OWN prices for their OWN items. if somebody want to dictate any prices to me, then i would like to forward him/she to the insane asylum in his/her area. then he/she can reveal laws of the universe to napoleon there.🤦‍♂️

The point is that people in trade chat can only set their prices as high as they do because buyers in trade chat don’t know any better. It’s like trading gold for shiny new magic beans. The fact that you frame providing information to buyers as „dictating prices“ speaks volumes.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

38 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

So a sizeable portion of users already use external trade tools. The number of users online on warframe.market is currently ~3/8ths the size of the current online Steam playerbase. That's not too far off from an actual majority, and that's comparing people trading to people who are just playing the game normally!

You also fail at math? Steam doesn't show all PC gamers, and it sure as heck won't show you us console players. You are looking at a total of what? Just over a third of the Steam users and claiming that's a majority of the players in the game? 

How badly are you trying to embarass yourself here? 

 

Seriously, Tenno, too many people have been explaining all of this to you, for too long. You keep thinking that others are misunderstanding, because you literally don't know what you are talking about. Go give yourself a quick primer, and actually think about what it all means. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Krankbert:

The point is that people in trade chat can only set their prices as high as they do because buyers in trade chat don’t know any better. It’s like trading gold for shiny new magic beans. The fact that you frame providing information to buyers as „dictating prices“ speaks volumes.

the whole thing leads nowhere. logic is still completely missing. discussion is also ping pong and if someone ignores all points and wants to break everything down into ridiculous ones, then there is no need to have a discussion.
that's your opinion too. I don't mind. but my time is too good for a kindergarten like this.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

"I'm mad that a site exists that makes it harder to gouge newbies" The Thread.

[Berzerkules]

If there was no downside to an in game AH DE would have already implemented one. 

DE probably realizes that they would tank the market and devalue plat overnight if they added an AH. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

sorry ,force of habit. I've been running nothing but Iso-Vaults again.

at the end of the day, DE are the ones who decide on an auction house, and every time they've said no. the only people still bringing this long-dead subject up usually are trolls or uninformed newbies who liked using Auction houses in (insert game name here), 99.9% of people know it's never gonna happen.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

46 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You say that because you never bothered to read my argument or understand my position.

I was not saying that warframe.market and an automated auction house are equivalent.

If you thought I was, it's because you didn't bother to read what I wrote.

I was saying that because warframe.market exists, it does not matter where it is located.

It could be located on a fansite, or it could be located on the dark web, or it could be located inside the game. The functionality already exists, and it already has a massive userbase. There are a third as many people on warframe.market right now as there are playing Warframe on Steam. Like, seriously.

So it does not matter if this functionality exists inside the game or outside the game, because it already exists and sees massive use.

Which brings us to this:

Claiming that the game shouldn't reach parity with external fansites is equivalent to saying that DE shouldn't add tooltips and explain how the game works because the wikia exists. They shouldn't improve the input system with features like auto-melee, auto-shoot, or auto-cast, because macros already exist. They shouldn't add colorblind support because colorblind users can use software to change their displays.

"DE should never improve the game where players can come up with a solution themselves."

Which is silly.

Obviously the game should have good tutorializing, address user experience problems, and improve the user experience as a whole. Obviously the trade system is due for improvements when it's got the feature set of Runescape's trade system in 2005.

Wow gotta say i really enjoyed reading your post. Very well put together and makes some really good points. Been MR30 you can really focus hard on trading for fun mainly. It's something to be enjoyed in all online games. While i have always loved auction houses in games and wished Warframe had one.

Sadly the devs have been pretty adamant against it even touting that Maroo was better. Warframe.market is great honestly can chill in dojo while watching netflix or twitch and make bank. Though it's so dang annoying having to be online for it that's my main issue due to work.

I do spend alooooot of money on Warframe to support them. I tend to do trading as more of a fun thing to do rather than a necessity. Normally using the plat to gift things to my mates or stocking up on stuff.

GTN (ah) on swtor was one of my favorite time killers!. Keep up the good fight, i gave up on it several years ago but would always love to see some love to the trading side of Warframe. :)

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

57 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Everything in trade chat is massively overpriced. It’s basically a way to scam players who don’t know about Warframe.market. An ingame auction house would be obvious to everyone. This would be bad for people who are raking in plat through price gouging right now.

I would like to backup this claim by Krani. Unfortunately this is very common and i do my best and i hope others do as well to make sure to point it out when it occurs. As the ones most effected by this tend to be new players. This can have an impact on their thoughts on Warframe and our great community.

[Jackdarsan]

Never going to happen, love how this topic just keeps coming back up. 

Why would DE make it easy to get Plat in game when that is their only source of income? 

If anyone has a real answer to this question or a way to not impact DE's bottom line, only then they would even consider adding it into the game. 

[DrivaMain]

The plat economy right now already stale because lack of updates lessening demand and too many supply. Adding the auction house only adds fuel to the fire. Low ballers will keep undercutting making the price of items completely worthless. 

Do you want your excess prime junks, primed mods, arcanes, etc to be worthless? This is a free market, it won't work. Unless DE start to meddle item values which is a huge headache.

 

[CephalonCarnage]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Mofojokers said:

Point is making plat is pretty much the main goal at this rank for fun. An auction house system would allow me to do what i do in ESO, WOW, Swtor and all the other online games and buy low, Sell high at the push of one button. Taking away the annoyance of trading with people something i really dislike.

uh-huh. "Just gimme teh munnies".