We really need a auction house for non-riven items.

[Angwah]

5 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Yes, it is completely true that you cannot increase demand by reducing supply (and yes, that makes no sense). I am, however, not sure that is the argument being made. Instead, to me, it seems like the argument is to limit the supply to avoid a decrease in price, since the demand is already limited (for some Warframe "goods"). But I consider such a solution completely wrong, since it is the opposite of an open and free market and because it is all about protecting sellers and forcing buyers to pay more.

I did, indeed, not say at any point, that you can increase demand by reducing supply.

Anyway, it's not a free market currently, and any market in the real world is limited and restricted in some way or form. In Warframe's situation of limitless supply and limited demand you have to put up roadblocks on the supply side or you simply have no market. The people who argue against an AH are right that if you allow the type of unrestricted AH where everyone can put up everything tradeable they own for sale, the market would melt down.

Currently this roadblock is investing time and going through a lot of hassle and it exists for both the buyers and the sellers. Everybody is free to believe that the current situation is some sort of golden standard which can not be improved, but, hey, I don't buy that.

If you can only have, say, one AH slot per 2 MR, and you can only it once per 24 hours, it really would massively cut down supply, It would also naturally segregate the seller's market. Those who can more easily farm the more expensive items would focus on those, as they would net more platinum and those slots are precious, those who are still at the stage of farming prime parts for platinum would no longer be competing in selling those with the people drowning in them.

But hey, we've been here before. Do not expect rational arguments.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 minutes ago, Angwah said:

I did, indeed, not say at any point, that you can increase demand by reducing supply.

Anyway, it's not a free market currently, and any market in the real world is limited and restricted in some way or form. In Warframe's situation of limitless supply and limited demand you have to put up roadblocks on the supply side or you simply have no market. The people who argue against an AH are right that if you allow the type of unrestricted AH where everyone can put up everything tradeable they own for sale, the market would melt down.

Currently this roadblock is investing time and going through a lot of hassle and it exists for both the buyers and the sellers. Everybody is free to believe that the current situation is some sort of golden standard which can not be improved, but, hey, I don't buy that.

If you can only have, say, one AH slot per 2 MR, and you can only it once per 24 hours, it really would massively cut down supply, It would also naturally segregate the seller's market. Those who can more easily farm the more expensive items would focus on those, as they would net more platinum and those slots are precious, those who are still at the stage of farming prime parts for platinum would no longer be competing in selling those with the people drowning in them.

But hey, we've been here before. Do not expect rational arguments.

And, no. Giving an additional trade slot doesn't reduce supply. What it'll do is increase the number of concurrent sellers. Seriously, saying "the washer in my faucet is bad, so my faucet leaks and I don't like that" is one thing, saying "I'll fix this problem by poking a hole in the pipe under the vanity, which will leak all the time, hopefully reducing the pressure at the faucet and reducing the amount of water wasted" is what you're trying to do. 

You don't fix a problematic system by introducing an even more problematic solution. Not all change is good, the one you propose is just plain BAD.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

14 hours ago, Scyris said:

I say this because even using warframe market I am having a hell of a time ever getting anyone to reply when I want to buy something, and to be honest its grating on my nerves. Why is there not a auction house-like thing in game for the non-riven mods and relic stuff? It's sorely needed imo.

Ah yes. Because the game should just hand you free plat. Supply and demand be damned. 

 

I am so tired of these threads. No. 

 

Use the search bar next time. 

[Godmode_Ash]

Didn't bother to read entire thread, this is my respond to anyone wanting an easy way to trade.

You have to understand the waframe trading is a free market.  Many dedicated traders spent a long tme to refine their trading method. The less of the competition the better for the existing traders. Of couse the veterans would prefer to keep the entry barrier high for any new traders. Also, if everyone is a trader, then the market would crash.

There is nothing wrong with how the trading work at the moment. If you want to be a trader, you have to be vigilant and active. This could be a rewarding and an accomplishing experience, just like the real world business.

I myself can't find the motivate to do the trading. I want to view this as a game, not a job. But I am glad the trading system the way it is. Imaging if one day DE decide to ruin the trading market. Noone would have any alternate method to obtain the platniums effectively. 

 

PS. I am talking about non-riven trading like OP stated in topic. Riven is another issue.

[Surbusken]

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

...

You haven't presented any facts or given an actual example of anything though.

I am just reading line after line of abstract adjectives; "equality for inexperienced players in an open market economy". What does any of it mean.

Those are empty statements with no points or premise to them.

I wasn't even sure what you were saying, I just took a shot and guessed you wanted better rivens for yourself cheaper - which is fine in itself but can't sit in for a fake complaint about the game.

Believe me I complain more about this game than anyone but you have to at least show up with a point for a debate.

As for your problem, you can find cheap rivens, as far down as 20 plat on the auction house, and throw kuva at it. Problems solved?

Sure, if someone is sitting on 40,000 plat they can take over a corner of the market, a group can do it, a clan can do it, anyone can. No version of trading can stop that.

Joke is on them; there is nothing to spend plat on anyway.

 

[killerJoke66]

2 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Didn't bother to read entire thread, this is my respond to anyone wanting an easy way to trade.

You have to understand the waframe trading is a free market.  Many dedicated traders spent a long tme to refine their trading method. The less of the competition the better for the existing traders. Of couse the veterans would prefer to keep the entry barrier high for any new traders. Also, if everyone is a trader, then the market would crash.

There is nothing wrong with how the trading work at the moment. If you want to be a trader, you have to be vigilant and active. This could be a rewarding and an accomplishing experience, just like the real world business.

I myself can't find the motivate to do the trading. I want to view this as a game, not a job. But I am glad the trading system the way it is. Imaging if one day DE decide to ruin the trading market. Noone would have any alternate method to obtain the platniums effectively. 

 

PS. I am talking about non-riven trading like OP stated in topic. Riven is another issue.

except this is not a real world business nor people have pletiful time to waste on haggling , i know that offline aucttions  are not coming or ever gonna come  but whatever , dont compare it to irl trading systems that involve actual impactful stuff on human lives thanks.

[CreamedSoda]

4 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

Isn't this what most of the anti auction house blurb is about?

People don't want the price of Rivens to drop. 

If people don't want to pay their prices all they have to do is not buy them. It's not like we even really need them in the current version of the game.

Yet, members of DE staff seem to post pictures of their latest god roll riven for *enter name of new /  meta weapon* on Twitter all the time, and it's DE who refuses to do anything about the scalping that takes place on the Marketplace by bringing Riven trading in game. It's almost as if they're linked or something?

If I remember a certain scalper has over 10 million plat on one account, at some point we need to deal with this ridiculousness. The Riven system so far is not doing what it is intended to do, I mean we have discords specifically for scalpers as they bot snipe rivens and laugh about it.

I'm grateful that I'm not dumb enough to pay anymore than 500p for a riven. Cause that's how it should be, I'm sick of seeing trade chat ruined by these "16k for +40% damage +10% crit chance -10% impact" people that make it unbearable to trade as they spam over 30 rivens a post and drown out me just trying to sell a few items for a quick amount of change.

[fo3nixz]

separate riven channel. job done

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

55 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

except this is not a real world business nor people have pletiful time to waste on haggling , i know that offline aucttions  are not coming or ever gonna come  but whatever , dont compare it to irl trading systems that involve actual impactful stuff on human lives thanks.

Oh that's where you're wrong, some people have lots of time for haggling. I'm personally only willing to entertain offer and counteroffer, most of the time, but if the person is unreasonable with the prices I won't bother haggling. 

The rules of trade, are basically free market rules, just like you'd see in a flea market or rummage sale IRL, so it's a very fair comparison. The difference is that we've got way more sellers than you're likely to find in any flea market. I can almost always purchase items I want at lower than warframe.market pricing, in my experience, because of the fierce competition for our limited plat on PSN, which is how I absolutely know that an AH will crash the in-game economy.

And when I make my purchases, I'll often see people still advertising in chat for way more than warframe.market prices. Those are the types of people who ultimately come to the forums and make these sorts of threads, people who are greedy, and believe that they can't get a sale because not enough people are seeing their crappy WTS offerings. What they can't wrap their heads around is that the same people who respond to my WTB requests, would be more than happy to use a "set it and forget it" style system, and will still happily post a reasonable plat price, and get their items snapped up.

The only way to explain the inability to see why the system wouldn't benefit those asking for it, is greed. They think that everyone else is as greedy as they are, and can't grasp that people who accept fair offers exist.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

Auction house will not be in warframe mainly imo is that it doesn't keep a player in the game.

With  how trade chat is it keeps you in the game as you try to sell an item you notice other things are in demand and you check your own inventory notice you have 1 missing item and now you have some relics to run. Myblast few days arebgreat example of this running my old vaulted relucsvto sell of vaulted frames getting credits to max dupe prime mods.

A auction has no engagement to make you stay in the game.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

23 minutes ago, Whitestrake0 said:

If I remember a certain scalper has over 10 million plat on one account, at some point we need to deal with this ridiculousness. The Riven system so far is not doing what it is intended to do, I mean we have discords specifically for scalpers as they bot snipe rivens and laugh about it.

I'm grateful that I'm not dumb enough to pay anymore than 500p for a riven. Cause that's how it should be, I'm sick of seeing trade chat ruined by these "16k for +40% damage +10% crit chance -10% impact" people that make it unbearable to trade as they spam over 30 rivens a post and drown out me just trying to sell a few items for a quick amount of change.

The easy solution that DE should implement is a separate trade chat channel for riven trading. Make it a 24 hour trade ban for anyone who posts a riven for sale in the wrong one, they'll quickly use the correct channel and make the other easier to use.

[xcrimsonlegendx]

Wouldn't that just make it even harder for users to earn plat? Since that mod you were going to sell for 10 would be worth 1p because there are 10,000 of them listed on the auction house?

[Aldain]

44 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

The easy solution that DE should implement is a separate trade chat channel for riven trading. Make it a 24 hour trade ban for anyone who posts a riven for sale in the wrong one, they'll quickly use the correct channel and make the other easier to use.

Been saying this for about a year and a half now...well not the part about bans, I'm more partial to just making trade chat not accept Riven Mod links and send a "Please use the Riven Trade Chat for Riven Mods" be shot out if somebody tries.

However it gets shot down every time, I literally had one person say "Oh sure, but why stop there, let's make a trade chat for every separate category of item" as a way to disprove the need/function of a separate chat for them. Like somehow asking for a trade chat for the items that make up 90% of all trade posts is an illogical hyperbolic demand.

...Two shots of rum were had that day.

[PublikDomain]

Just like with auto-melee/shoot/cast macros and the wikia, external tools and resources that improve QoL are already widely in use. In this case it's fan-run trade sites like warframe.market and riven.market, among others. So if players are already using these tools externally, wouldn't it be more convenient if the tools were internally available instead? If it's the same functionality then moving it from a website to a window ingame makes no difference whatsoever to tHe EcONoMy, as the tools already exist and are already broadly in use and have already impacted the economy without blowing it up.

We already have an auction house, it's just not ingame. It'd be a lot more convenient if it were.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

43 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Been saying this for about a year and a half now...well not the part about bans, I'm more partial to just making trade chat not accept Riven Mod links and send a "Please use the Riven Trade Chat for Riven Mods" be shot out if somebody tries.

However it gets shot down every time, I literally had one person say "Oh sure, but why stop there, let's make a trade chat for every separate category of item" as a way to disprove the need/function of a separate chat for them. Like somehow asking for a trade chat for the items that make up 90% of all trade posts is an illogical hyperbolic demand.

...Two shots of rum were had that day.

Only 2?

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Only 2?

Well they were wide glasses.

...Wait looking back I think it was just a bowl.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Only 2?

Maybe they were very large glasses?

 

But to be fair, I'm from the Caribbean, we use that stuff as everything from medicine to ease coughs and sore throats, to occasionally sapping the head of people who get overheated (a very easy thing to do in the caribbean, just saying), to cooking ingerdient, and some people manage to even drink some of it from time to time. The whole "Pirates of the Caribbean" scene of the island with a stash of rum, was pretty pretty funny, because for us that would have probably only been enough for a relatively small fete. 🤷‍♂️

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

There's nothing rare enough to warrant an AH, and seeing how the community handled nexramech mods....you guys aren't ready for real rarity.

[Graavarg]

13 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

A lot of bad plat comes from people using credit card information to buy plat, and then the charges get contested. Some of that would involve simple bad faith purchases, but some would probably also include stolen card information. The Bank will do a chargeback, so DE is out of pocket at that point. To fully vet the purchase, one must wait for the maximum chargeback time to have fully elapsed without the purchase being contested. Call a few banks in your area and ask what's the maximum amount of time to dispute charges on their credit cards, for many that can easily be up to 120 days. That's how long you have to wait to vet the plat. 

Many children ask for horses as pets, but the fact is that they don't know anything about what's involved in what they're asking for. Same thing applies to vetting plat. Think about it.

It is more complicated than that. Many countries have customer protection laws (allowing you to return a product and get your money back) that also cover "digital goods", and this allows for "completely legal rollback" of a transaction. Generally providers of online goods (like Warframe, but another and maybe clearer example would be buying a "digital music album") with smallish monetary value chooses to allow these rollbacks to go through even if there is some ambiguity (the legal point is that the goods have to be "unused"). Simply because of the (rather large) potential hassle involved with not giving the customers their money back.

So even if you have someone buying plat 100% legally, they can then 100% legally roll back that purchase and get their money back. If the customer already used the plat, DE could potentially deny the rollback, but that would open up a different and much bigger potential can of worms. However, after the rollback there will be new "bad plat" inside the Warframe "economy". DE has no other option than to remove it (or "rollbacking" would become the easiest way to get plat), which can then affect a completely innocent player.

You are partly mistaken about the banks, this system is driven by law, not by the banks (though banks in many countries tend to follow the law 🙂). So a bank offering a customer 120 days to dispute charges has no impact on what DE is obliged to do, that obligation comes from customer protection laws. And in most countries that is a much shorter period of time than 120 days. Crime (and money gotten from criminal activity) is again something different, but concerning credit card fraud/theft the risk taker is generally the owner of the card and the issuing bank, not the seller. The transaction and the involved checks are designed to also protect the seller (if the card checks out => the seller acts "in good faith").

But these are just the stuff underlying the problem, the really real problem is that a completely innocent Warframe player selling a riven or a set for plat in a completely normal way might get hit with a locked account if that plat gets removed from the system. Or in other words, ALL players selling stuff for plat are risking a "bad plat" transaction, and there is currently no way to protect yourself against it. Yes, you can be vigilant, and yes, beware of offers seeming "too good", but in the end you cannot actually know. The risk is quite small (the amount of "bad plat" vs "good plat" is minuscule, so the problem isn't all that "big"), but in addition to the actual risk there is also a matter of principle. The "sufferer" should never be a completely innocent player. But unless there is a clear distinction inside the economic system between "potentially bad plat" and "guaranteed good plat", that is how it is.

[Graavarg]

13 hours ago, Surbusken said:

You haven't presented any facts or given an actual example of anything though.

I am just reading line after line of abstract adjectives; "equality for inexperienced players in an open market economy". What does any of it mean.

Those are empty statements with no points or premise to them.

I wasn't even sure what you were saying, I just took a shot and guessed you wanted better rivens for yourself cheaper - which is fine in itself but can't sit in for a fake complaint about the game.

Believe me I complain more about this game than anyone but you have to at least show up with a point for a debate.

As for your problem, you can find cheap rivens, as far down as 20 plat on the auction house, and throw kuva at it. Problems solved?

Sure, if someone is sitting on 40,000 plat they can take over a corner of the market, a group can do it, a clan can do it, anyone can. No version of trading can stop that.

Joke is on them; there is nothing to spend plat on anyway.

 

You don't understand the concept of "equality"? And the responsibility of anyone "in charge" to try and guarantee equality?

In this case you have, on one hand: dedicated traders using a lot of "tools", like bots, multiple accounts and sometimes even being involved in online trade-related systems. And, on the other hand, a more inexperienced player getting a riven or a part and needing plat. Currently it is a "wolf among the sheep" market, where the inexperienced player is forced to try and sell their riven/part in a scrolling trade chat, competing against trading bots using price stats generated with data mining tools.

The whole economy then becomes a medieval one, you have the slaves and peasants toiling in the field (using time and effort to get rivens and parts), but in practical term then forced to sell whatever they find in a system designed to support their overlord, which makes his/her money not from their sweat by paying them less than the stuff is worth and selling it to richer customers for what it is worth. That is not a "level and equal" playing field. And all that talk about "they having to learn" and "they can also" is pure BS and exactly the same BS that has been spouted by usurpers for millennia. The truth is they are getting abused by a system that fails to give them a more equal and more level way to trade. The failing here is not even the players taking advantage of the system to get more plat, the responsibility of trying to equal things out rests on the power in charge, which is DE.

Having a simple "put-up-for-sale" market (I don't care about the auction part, I think that is rather irrelevant) where ALL players could compare ALL offers, both from a selling and buying perspective would be a hell of a lot more equal than the current system. It would allow ALL players a much more level trading field, both from the possibility of comparing prices and by removing the time-constraints of a scrolling chat.

Now, it is easy to understand that anyone benefitting from the current system would be against such a more level & equal trading system. Since they make plat by buying cheap rivens/parts from inexperienced players or from players actually wanting to spend their time playing the game (not staring at a scrolling chat window). But the point is that a more level format for in-game trading would benefit a lot (LOT!) more players than the current system, and it addition it would make the whole plat economy more equal and more fair to everyone.

Now is that enough equality for you? 🙂

My assumption would also be that anyone with a tag indicating one of the most equal societies on earth would be well versed in the concept of equality, which includes the responsibility of protecting the weak. 😉

[Cloud]

On 2020-12-09 at 5:02 AM, Scyris said:

I say this because even using warframe market I am having a hell of a time ever getting anyone to reply when I want to buy something, and to be honest its grating on my nerves. Why is there not a auction house-like thing in game for the non-riven mods and relic stuff? It's sorely needed imo.

I beg to differ, the only thing which really need an auction house are indeed Rivens. 

Relics and normal items can have thousands of duplicates, if everyone would use a built-in game AH the price for everything would drop significantly at the point that rivens would be the only thing economically profitable to farm.

Rivens instead are unique, so no matter how many others are there in the market for the same weapon, no one will be as yours. Moreover their purchase and selling require a particular consideration and attention since there are no clear and shared objective evaluation criteria in their cost. So having an overview of other similar mods offered for sale could avoid over/underestimating yours.

[Berzerkules]

I'd rather have an in game AH for just rivens. 

If there was an AH for everything the price would tank because people would undercut prices with -1 listings. 

Rivens are unique and harder to price. Besides trash/unroll you can't really undercut other sellers when all rivens are different. It would also be easier to find rivens with the exact stats you are looking for if everyone could just auto list their riven collections. 

[Graavarg]

16 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Oh crud, you strayed into the realm of "nonsense". The system you are advocating for means only those with the lowest price will get a sale. Since many of us are more than willing to shed inventory for less plat (I often give stuff away because it's not worth the effort of selling) will always be willing to beat you on prices for a quick sale. The only way to compete is to also reduce your price. And inevitably we suddenly find most items listing for prime junk prices. Since most of the players in warframe are probably f2p players, that means that collecting plat to make their own purchases just became significantly more difficult...... and you ruined the game economy, because you think you'll magically get easy plat for the crap you can't currently sell. News flash: you won't.

Nope, I strayed into the realm of "open and free market" which is "equal and level for all". The whole idea of an open and free market is that everyone is allowed to compete on equal terms and the price-point is determined by the interaction between sellers and buyers.

And yes, a short-term effect is that some prices would certainly drop. However, according to generally accepted basic economic theory that is where the price should be (in an open and free market). The "unlimited supply" argument is false, since if there was "unlimited supply" everyone would already have everything ("unlimited") and there would be no commerce. The flawed argument probably comes from the (faulty) idea that it is the "product" itself that has an inherent value, but that isn't true. What we are paying for is the actual ("collective", since it is partly randomized) effort needed to get something, not the thing in itself. Anyone can farm anything in the game (with the exception of a few restricted items and the time-based restriction of "vaulting"), so the value an item has is a combination of the effort needed to farm it and the time-based availability (waiting for next unvault).

A more open and more equal market, in the form of a "post-it/buy-it for a listed price" would make sure that the EFFORT of ALL players are much more EQUALLY rewarded. And yes, it would make it harder for a small number of players to make money from the effort of other players. But that is a bad thing only for the select few.

For some reason you choose to look at this only from "a seller's" viewpoint, when everyone wanting to buy something also would benefit from a more open and equal trading system. Again, the only ones benefitting from prices inflated by dysfunctionality are the ones making plat from other player's efforts. 

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

16 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

You have no idea what you're talking about. We're talking about in-game premium currency that from the current state gives you basically access to all items in the game.

Who in his right mind would be fine allowing passive acquisition of that?

You can be happy it's even tradable.. a gazillion amount of games don't allow that and you HAVE to buy it with real money.

Uh.... every other game with an auction house? 😅

 

On 2020-12-09 at 6:34 PM, Godmode_Ash said:

Didn't bother to read entire thread, this is my respond to anyone wanting an easy way to trade.

You have to understand the waframe trading is a free market.  Many dedicated traders spent a long tme to refine their trading method. The less of the competition the better for the existing traders. Of couse the veterans would prefer to keep the entry barrier high for any new traders. Also, if everyone is a trader, then the market would crash.

There is nothing wrong with how the trading work at the moment. If you want to be a trader, you have to be vigilant and active. This could be a rewarding and an accomplishing experience, just like the real world business.

I myself can't find the motivate to do the trading. I want to view this as a game, not a job. But I am glad the trading system the way it is. Imaging if one day DE decide to ruin the trading market. Noone would have any alternate method to obtain the platniums effectively. 

 

PS. I am talking about non-riven trading like OP stated in topic. Riven is another issue.

Thank you for clearing that up.

[(PSN)Pragmatic_2015]

I come in to a simple suggestion to augment trading and 3 pages of no instead of an honest discussion leading to a yes.