How does D.E. plan on bringing primary weapons up to speed with melee?

[_4shes]

Opinion

Melees outclass both primary and secondary when it comes to bang for your buck. Correct me if I'm wrong but in general you don't have to invest nearly as much into a melee to get it to tear and rip through everything compared to melee weapons. I've only have had to put 2-3 forma on average on a melee weapon to make it more than enough. On the other hand a lot of primaries I've had to slot 4-5 forma just to get more room for experimentation and usefulness. I'm generally curious as to how they plan to bring primaries up to speed. 

[Orblit]

Remember stances? The things that add about 2 formas' worth of capacity? Only reason melee has the illusion of easy modding to a finished build over primary and secondary.

[TARINunit9]

10 minutes ago, _4shes said:

I've only have had to put 2-3 forma on average on a melee weapon to make it more than enough. On the other hand a lot of primaries I've had to slot 4-5 forma just to get more room for experimentation and usefulness.

This is unrelated, as a result of the Stance system. Melee weapons have 70 drain while guns only have 60; this definitely reduces the number of forma needed, but in my experience isn't the factor that makes melee so overpowered

No, the reason melee is so much more powerful, was the melee 3.0 update. The devs increased melee weapon damage by an average of 300% (in some cases by 500%). As an example, the Skana in the tutorial went from 35 damage to 120 damage, while enemies in the tutorial (and most of Earth after the tutorial) have 100 health. Add on the existing melee meta, and that 300 to 500 percent damage boost went a looooong way

[Rakosta_Kai]

I don't think anyone knows...

I would say though that I don't really expect them to make Primaries or Secondaries be on par with Melee either though.

DE has shown themselves to be leery (and rightly so) with tons of damage from range.

No argument though on the matter of the disparity between them being noticeable.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb _4shes:

Opinion

Melees outclass both primary and secondary when it comes to bang for your buck. Correct me if I'm wrong but in general you don't have to invest nearly as much into a melee to get it to tear and rip through everything compared to melee weapons. I've only have had to put 2-3 forma on average on a melee weapon to make it more than enough. On the other hand a lot of primaries I've had to slot 4-5 forma just to get more room for experimentation and usefulness. I'm generally curious as to how they plan to bring primaries up to speed. 

that's the way it is. it has also been discussed too often and there are already top contributions with suggestions about it.
I'm sure the devs already know. the focus is probably in the other area. and most of the primary or secondary are for the garbage can. the difference between top 3 primary and the rest is more than blatant. to fix that will take a lot of time.

but there are apparently also trolls who think that bramma is good or even better than mele.
well ... good that you are addressing the topic. important things have to stay up there. otherwise the devs read the contributions of children from the asylum and think that the world is all right.

[deothor]

I wouldn't be surprised if they made melee-immune mobs :P

jokes aside, I'd rather see melee global nerf than gun buffs. Otherwise we'll have neverending cycle of powercreep.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

Disclaimer: opinions.

Well, so far each time they did do it with a few selected ones some players were quite keen on getting it nerfed asap. The Bramma probably being the most outstanding example recently. Here and there you already see complaints about general AoE primaries/secondaries being too strong pop up too.

In reality the only thing a few AoE guns do, for better or worse, is outclassing other guns but only keeping up with melee and abilities, making them an actual option to use. They still are not universally as good as melee across almost all content is. Abilities get shafted here and there due to immunities or diminishing returns but melee you can succeed with pretty much anywhere.

Personally, I found the "it gets used so much, thus we nerf it" reasoning when it comes to guns quite hilarious because when it comes to guns all a high usage spike tells you (or should tell you) at first is that out of all the garbage it's a viable option in comparison to melee and abilities that people are actually firing with. It's not as with melee where the majority is a totally fine and viable choice that works just fine and thus you don't have these sudden usage spikes when another good melee weapon comes out.

But yeah, AoE guns apparently are "too stronk" already if it were up to some voices. The issue isn't really "solved" by just increasing the damage or by making a CO for single target guns. Even if the Soma dealt 5 million damage per hit you'd probably still play more efficiently with a melee, abilities or AoE guns in a good portion of the game since high single target damage is not required too often and actually a niche demand or rather only better than AoE in specific situations outside of the Simulacrum and even the role of ranged single target damage can at least be filled with heavy attack builds on gunblades. Outside of SP or endurance the whole thing is mostly about how easily applicable the damage is and not how high thus anything AoE wins over single target.

[Yamazuki]

3 minutes ago, deothor said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they made melee-immune mobs :P

jokes aside, I'd rather see melee global nerf than gun buffs. Otherwise we'll have neverending cycle of powercreep.

There are enemies that you can't really melee, you would have to use gunblades as your "melee" at all times for it to not apply.

Either way, DE has already said they "balance" around a certain level, and any of the non-trash guns perform fine within those ranges, melee only does extremely well in comparison in endurance runs, which most people don't do. It's why anytime a good aoe ranged weapon see high usage, there ends up being a lot of complaints, because that's what most people are using. The melee changes before even reflected that, with the heavy focus on allowing people who use guns to instantly swap back and forth, comboing added to quick melee, maintaining and hitting their peak damage was made easier, and they even initially got rid of melee mode/fire input to attack and the silly auto blocking. Then there's the high damage heavy attacks, which is mainly a benefit for people that don't melee.

[Tiltskillet]

"How Does D.E. plan on bringing ranged weapons up to speed with melee?"

Fixed.  😉

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

remove weapon slot restriction in entirety, so you can choose 3 of ANY weapons freely... should help. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb Yamazuki:

... It's why anytime a good aoe ranged weapon see high usage, ...

that's not new either. i can remember that many years ago i said: "use aoe weapon against weak mobs and kill heavy mobs with mele".
especially now. I played SE yesterday. and gunblade was doing heavy attack 800k-1m crits all the time. and I also had speed buff from wisp. how should a primary or secondary keep up there.

[_4shes]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

This is unrelated, as a result of the Stance system. Melee weapons have 70 drain while guns only have 60; this definitely reduces the number of forma needed, but in my experience isn't the factor that makes melee so overpowered

No, the reason melee is so much more powerful, was the melee 3.0 update. The devs increased melee weapon damage by an average of 300% (in some cases by 500%). As an example, the Skana in the tutorial went from 35 damage to 120 damage, while enemies in the tutorial (and most of Earth after the tutorial) have 100 health. Add on the existing melee meta, and that 300 to 500 percent damage boost went a looooong way

I don't think melee is necessarily over powered. Just way easier to get the best out of. Like you said they have stances which ultimately still reduces the investment you need to make it worth while compared to primaries.  The stance system only further adds to my point that melees have way more bang for their buck.

[_4shes]

1 hour ago, Battle.Mage said:

that's the way it is. it has also been discussed too often and there are already top contributions with suggestions about it.
I'm sure the devs already know. the focus is probably in the other area. and most of the primary or secondary are for the garbage can. the difference between top 3 primary and the rest is more than blatant. to fix that will take a lot of time.

but there are apparently also trolls who think that bramma is good or even better than mele.
well ... good that you are addressing the topic. important things have to stay up there. otherwise the devs read the contributions of children from the asylum and think that the world is all right.

I apologize if you've seen a post similar to this multiple times. I don't browse or comment on the forums consistently enough to see these. I just speak my mind because I want to, regardless if the subject has been discussed many times before.  

[_4shes]

1 hour ago, Orblit said:

Remember stances? The things that add about 2 formas' worth of capacity? Only reason melee has the illusion of easy modding to a finished build over primary and secondary.

How is it an illusion? Doesn't matter if I didnt mention stances or not. That just further emphasizes that melees don't require that much investment for great use. In fact it's one of the reasons. The fact that melees have a free built in way to extend the capacity by essentially 2 formas and primary don't is essentially the reason it has more bang for their buck. I'm not saying that stances are a bad thing. I'm just saying melees give a lot more than primaries for a lot less.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb _4shes:

I apologize if you've seen a post similar to this multiple times. I don't browse or comment on the forums consistently enough to see these. I just speak my mind because I want to, regardless if the subject has been discussed many times before.  

it's not a problem. and i'm talking about intervals over several years.
and I wouldn't dig out the old post either. because trolls keep coming up with provocations and there is no productive discussion.
therefore you are doing it correctly in my opinion.

[JackHargreav]

I guess they could buff every primary.

Almost every primary. Obviously the catchmoon and the Bramma can stay how they are. 

The assault rifles should definitely get a fat buff. With the Trumna around there isn't a lot of competition.

They tried to bring back some of the old weapons. Like Paris prime and the Soma prime but non of the mods we got for them did anything.

[Loza03]

Primary weapons do deserve to be brought up to speed a bit, although an argument could be made that Melee Weapons are perhaps a tad fast already considering that they cost absolutely no ammo or energy or anything to use, can block incoming frontal damage and are wielded by characters fast enough to mitigate the innate downside of their range.

[TARINunit9]

28 minutes ago, _4shes said:

I don't think melee is necessarily over powered. Just way easier to get the best out of. 

Melee is also genuinely more powerful once you do "get the best out of it". Higher base damage, better crit and status stats, hits crowds reliably, staggers enemies, etc.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I'm sure they're aware and are eventually planning to do something. They're already releasing new guns with AOE and better base stats. 

Other than that, there's never gonna be a time when a single target weapon beats melee, in any horde based game, ever. 

Keep in mind you can make current weapons stronger by actually using more than 2 forma and using things like Primed Bane mods, synergizing with frames that provide weapon buffs through abilities, stripping armor etc. 

I tried revenants new augment that buffs primary damage in a solo steel path Mot and it was quite effective.

[TheGrimCorsair]

If you listened to the folks on this forum you'd think the way to "fix" ranged weapons would be to make them as or more powerful than melee as though being able to wave Ignis Whichever around and disappear all the things in a puff of smoke isn't exactly how we ended up in this cluster$%#& to begin with.

So, hopefully, not that.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

27 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Melee is also genuinely more powerful once you do "get the best out of it". Higher base damage, better crit and status stats, hits crowds reliably, staggers enemies, etc.

I guess my question then would be why not take the Sniper Combo Counter and put it on all other weapons? I can't say I've ever had issues dealing damage with my Snipers once I got their combo up, and outside of automatic weapons (which generally need a damage buff the most), most guns aren't going to get an insane combo, especially when the Sniper combo adds downsides like a higher threshold and Multishot counting for missed hits. 

All guns would get a pretty sizable buff with minimal work required on DE's part, and the system doesn't really have any issues to begin with while making Snipers one of our best options. I don't see why we shouldn't just give it to every other weapon. Melee would of course still be stronger (especially since it can reach a higher combo much faster), but the gap would at least be a bit smaller and it would hopefully make some weapons less ammo-hungry as the levels rise.

[Hierarch777]

I'd just nerf the base damage of all melee weapons. Since we can reach 12X combo, using Blood Rush, Condition Overload and Weeping Wounds provides more than enough damage amplification.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

No, the reason melee is so much more powerful, was the melee 3.0 update. The devs increased melee weapon damage by an average of 300% (in some cases by 500%). As an example, the Skana in the tutorial went from 35 damage to 120 damage, while enemies in the tutorial (and most of Earth after the tutorial) have 100 health. Add on the existing melee meta, and that 300 to 500 percent damage boost went a looooong way

I'm just gonna point out that the base damage increase was partially to compensate for the loss of the combo counter as a direct damage multiplier. Also from a perusal of old values vs new values, the mean increase was ~208%, not 300% (median increase was ~181%, min increase was 45.6%, max increase was 672%).
So the mean increase was balanced around having a 3x combo, which was very easy to reach (135 hits).

[Venus-Venera]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb JackHargreav:

I guess they could buff every primary.

Almost every primary. Obviously the catchmoon and the Bramma can stay how they are. 

The assault rifles should definitely get a fat buff. With the Trumna around there isn't a lot of competition.

They tried to bring back some of the old weapons. Like Paris prime and the Soma prime but non of the mods we got for them did anything.

bramma is a total joke now. i love the sounds and the way it works. but if i compare it to kuva nukor, then i have to laugh with tears under the table. the list of disadvantages is far too long. there is also fresh discussion about the bow in the feedback forum.

the problem has also been known for years:
- why so many senseless weapons that not even a top riven can save?
- why single target weapon when weapon with aoe does a lot more damage?
- why primary or secondary if you have activated archwing and have protea skill in the bar?
- why primary or secondary when you are constantly mobile and mele does a lot more damage and doesn't need an ammo?
etc....

the devs already know that. feedback from devs would be good so that this discussion doesn't keep popping up.

[JackHargreav]

9 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

bramma is a total joke now. i love the sounds and the way it works. but if i compare it to kuva nukor, then i have to laugh with tears under the table. the list of disadvantages is far too long. there is also fresh discussion about the bow in the feedback forum.

the problem has also been known for years:
- why so many senseless weapons that not even a top riven can save?
- why single target weapon when weapon with aoe does a lot more damage?
- why primary or secondary if you have activated archwing and have protea skill in the bar?
- why primary or secondary when you are constantly mobile and mele does a lot more damage and doesn't need an ammo?
etc....

the devs already know that. feedback from devs would be good so that this discussion doesn't keep popping up.

Maybe they could give aoe to every weapon type that doesn't have it with a damage buff?

On the other hand I think bows would benefit from the system that snipers have.

As for weapons that are so weak that rivens can't save them. Well I think weak weapons are not a problem. You gotta give something to new players. That's more of a riven problem. They should have made the entire thing to buff weapons that become a joke after like lvl60.

But instead it's just there to buff weapons that absolutely don't need any buffs.