"Melee Good, Gun Bad."

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

People seem to have forgotten than melee is the strongest weapon type on purpose. As it has the lowest range. But guns, especially primaries, have been neglected for years and should be given some new stuff to help keep them relevant.

[Teljaxx]

There are two primary issues with melee: One is the mod system, because it is at the heart of basically all the balance problems in the game. And two is simply that melee tends to fit into the environment of the game better than guns do.

I made this post about the mod system, and its problems in another thread:

Spoiler

I doubt there is any kind of simple fix that will make mods balanced. The only option for DE is going to be a massive overhaul of pretty much the entire system.

There are a few main issues that most of the problems stem from:

1. Bonuses are multiplicative, instead of additive. This makes even tiny differences in base stats translate into massive discrepancies after modding, because a weapon with low base stats will always end up significantly weaker than one with high base stats.
2. There are too few limits on stacking multiple mods with similar effects. Combined with the previous issue, this is what creates the runaway snowballing effect that lets us boost our stats to such absurd levels. And its really those combinations that create the stagnant build problem, not just individual mods. Especially since most of these stackable mods also have other bonuses that can also stack.
3. Everything is a pure upgrade, and not a sidegrade. For there to be meaningful choices in a system like this, there need to be sacrifices. Simply not having enough slots or capacity for everything you want isn't a good enough sacrifice. The Corrupted mods were a good start, but it isn't nearly enough. There need to be more mods with both positive and negative effects, so that min/maxing is actually necessary, and not just an option.

1 may not need to be changed if 2 and 3 are dealt with properly. But 2 and 3 are big problems. Simply disallowing stacking similar bonuses would go a long way towards balancing everything, while also increasing build variety. You would only need one slot for your crit chance mod of choice, instead of two or three. And on top of that, adding negative aspects to most mods would then make that choice more meaningful. It would also give DE the opportunity to add more mods to the game that are simply different combinations of positives and negatives, instead of having to come up with crazier and crazier effects that just make the powercreep problem even worse.

This is somewhat unrelated, but they should also normalize the mod stats across different categories. It makes absolutely no sense that Serration gives +165% damage, Hornet Strike gives +220%, Pressure Point gives +120%, Point Blank gives +90%, and Rubedo-Lined Barrel gives +100%.

Unfortunately, all these changes would necessitate a complete rebalance of every other part of the game too, since its currently (theoretically) balanced around us being able to boost our stats to such insane levels, and these changes would reduce our maximum power by quite a bit. But, even though it means a ton of work for DE, this would all be better for the game in the end.

Consider the sheer magnitude of difference between a completely unmodded Skana, and something like the Stropha with full mods, forma, catalyst, and a godly riven. Now also consider that there is basically nothing stopping two different players from bringing these two weapons to the same mission at the same time. How do you balance around that? Most games would have some kind of system to keep players of different power levels separate from each other, and to encourage players to stay in areas with enemies that match their own power level. But Warframe actually does the opposite. It tends to bring everyone together regardless of their power. Everyone has to do Lith runs every once in a while, after all.

But, other than that, in general, there are more situations that encourage the use of melee than there are ones that favor guns. Most combat takes place at short range, we are so incredibly mobile that getting into and out of melee range is nearly instantaneous and risk free, and the usual risks that other games have while in melee range don't matter, because its so easy for us to have such high EHP.

Plus, melee is just plain much simpler than shooting. With guns, you have to follow your target as it moves around, try to hit it in its tiny head, manage your recoil, and reload when necessary. You also have to know how to lead your target with projectiles, mind the minimum safe distance with explosives, and wait for charge times and mode switching on some weapons. Meanwhile, with melee, all you have to do is get close and mash attack over and over. It doesn't matter if it takes two shots to kill something, but ten slashes to kill it, the simplicity makes it the latter very attractive option.

And on top of all that, all melee weapons also have extremely powerful AOE crowd control abilities with their lifts and ragdoll slams. So after all that, the fact that melee tends to also have higher DPS potential than guns barely even matters. So, simply reducing the general melee DPS won't actually change anything.

To really bring melee in line, it will need to have its own drawbacks, like guns do, to make choosing the right tool for the situation a more meaningful choice. A melee specific stamina system to keep people from just mindlessly spamming attacks all the time. Reduce player mobility and EHP to make getting into and out of combat riskier. Give more enemies super dangerous melee counterattacks. Something like that.

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, Aldain said:

If there were ever an object of evidence that proves just how whackjob OP melee is it would be that.

So a Skana can do Steel Path E Prime with zero abilities, anyone want to try that same thing with a Rivenless Lato or Braton?

Tricky.  Single target ranged is particularly unfair, but I think it's easy to reduce that to an AoE problem: definitely related since melee always has some sort of AoE, but  distinct.  

I wish I had more time.  I'd enjoy doing the some @Loza03 challenges with a few ranged AoE weapons, and see how low MR I could go  before hitting the wall.

 

[(PSN)dday3six]

17 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Interesting claim. I decided to stress-test this claim, by seeing if a particular melee could manage to best a Steel Path mission.

That melee being my 0-forma, no-catalyst Skana.  I furthered this by challenging myself to do it with no abilities

  Hide contents

 

 

I of course used a Scaling mod. If I'd decided to make use of a Catalyst, I could have dramatically reduced the time taken by using Condition Overload and Drifting Contact (whilst still being able to heal via Life Strike), which would likely have also prevented those deaths - although then again, those were primarily due to Acolytes. And I still took one of them out anyway, as you can see (I have a booster active).

 

Point being, no, Melee's that are capable of high-level content aren't limited to the best-of-the-best hallowed few. With just the use of Weeping Wounds, the first weapon you can ever get becomes a decent weapon capable of the Steel Path. More than that, the addition of just a couple of extra scaling mods would make it comparable to the likes of the Mausolon, an MR14 arch-gun. And of course, a ranged equivalent, the Mk-1 Braton struggles to take out a single Lancer in the same circumstances - and I mean struggles like 'can't do it on its full magazine, let alone a full clip' struggles.

I stated to stop saying melee is better than ranged in every situation. I never said the only melee weapons capable of high level content were the top of pyramid. I said the potentially overperforming melee weapons were the handful at the top. You tested something I didn't say, building yourself a strawman, and going out of your way to do it.

You demonstrated the power of Viral and Slash ultimately. Comparing the Skana to the MK-1 Braton is sham as you present it. Them both being starter weapons, does not correlate to them being equal in power. Skana can obviously uses Viral and Slash to greater effect. You didn't choose the MK-1 Bo, and it's also a starter weapon. You choose the Skana because of it's status chance, and most importantly, slash centered damage type. You choose Viral because frankly the outcome would have been far different without it. 

Yes melee is stronger out of the gate. It has access to more power earlier. It's troublesome to power scale incomplete builds. That's why it is considered more accurate to test full builds. 

I'll give you a couple of pieces of advice:

1) With only screen shots, and no video. One can point out that no abilities on Limbo isn't a challenge. He can dodge into the rift, operator Void Dash into mobs rag dolling them, and attack them from the Rift while they are rag dolled. Rinse. Repeat. 

2) This one being on a more serious note. The root issue is not melee's DPS. It's Viral and Slash. 

[Loza03]

On 2021-02-11 at 5:01 PM, Loza03 said:

Why nerf not buff: Because you'd need to buff everything as opposed to nerfing one thing. In fact, you'd actually only really need to nerf one or two parts of melee, since Melee's baseline performance is frankly just fine.

 

40 minutes ago, (PSN)dday3six said:

I stated to stop saying melee is better than ranged in every situation. I never said the only melee weapons capable of high level content were the top of pyramid. I said the potentially overperforming melee weapons were the handful at the top. You tested something I didn't say, building yourself a strawman, and going out of your way to do it.

You demonstrated the power of Viral and Slash ultimately. Comparing the Skana to the MK-1 Braton is sham as you present it. Them both being starter weapons, does not correlate to them being equal in power. Skana can obviously uses Viral and Slash to greater effect. You didn't choose the MK-1 Bo, and it's also a starter weapon. You choose the Skana because of it's status chance, and most importantly, slash centered damage type. You choose Viral because frankly the outcome would have been far different without it. 

Yes melee is stronger out of the gate. It has access to more power earlier. It's troublesome to power scale incomplete builds. That's why it is considered more accurate to test full builds. 

I'll give you a couple of pieces of advice:

1) With only screen shots, and no video. One can point out that no abilities on Limbo isn't a challenge. He can dodge into the rift, operator Void Dash into mobs rag dolling them, and attack them from the Rift while they are rag dolled. Rinse. Repeat. 

2) This one being on a more serious note. The root issue is not melee's DPS. It's Viral and Slash. 

 

 

I've bolded my point here.

When I tried the test again without scaling mods - even with Viral/Slash on the Skana - it was pretty damn comparable to the Mk-1 Braton (which, by the by, also had Viral and is predominately slash damage). I was able to get more kills and it definitely did more damage than its ranged counterpart, but those came at the cost of running out of lives, not ammo. Either way, I wasn't able to breach the first room. All in all, about as hideously ineffective as you would expect taking a garbage-build starter weapon into hard mode.

 

When I said 'you would need to buff everything', I meant EVERYTHING. Because the enemies too, would need to get buffed in order to keep up. That's honestly what Steel Path kind of is to begin with, and it can't even do that right since it wasn't effective. Scaling mods are just that good. It's also why I specify 'you'd only need to nerf one or two parts of melee' - the scaling mods are the problem, and arguably the Crit mods applying twice to heavies since that was introduced specifically to help heavies to keep up. Just one scaling mod had that insane boosting effect that turned a complete garbage-tier weapon into something capable of competing, and that was my point. And yes, that's on top of a bunch of other BS, but that other BS is patently not enough since it couldn't carry either weapon its own.

 

Viral/Slash is definitely a problem, but similar to what I said waaay back at the start of this thread, it's not an either-or situation here. Both scaling mods and the busted damage system are problems, and they make each other worse. Just like Players being functionally invincible or having functionally infinite energy exacerbates the problems too.

[(PSN)dday3six]

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

 

 

I've bolded my point here.

When I tried the test again without scaling mods - even with Viral/Slash on the Skana - it was pretty damn comparable to the Mk-1 Braton (which, by the by, also had Viral and is predominately slash damage). I was able to get more kills and it definitely did more damage than its ranged counterpart, but those came at the cost of running out of lives, not ammo. Either way, I wasn't able to breach the first room. All in all, about as hideously ineffective as you would expect taking a garbage-build starter weapon into hard mode.

 

When I said 'you would need to buff everything', I meant EVERYTHING. Because the enemies too, would need to get buffed in order to keep up. That's honestly what Steel Path kind of is to begin with, and it can't even do that right since it wasn't effective. Scaling mods are just that good. It's also why I specify 'you'd only need to nerf one or two parts of melee' - the scaling mods are the problem, and arguably the Crit mods applying twice to heavies since that was introduced specifically to help heavies to keep up. Just one scaling mod had that insane boosting effect that turned a complete garbage-tier weapon into something capable of competing, and that was my point. And yes, that's on top of a bunch of other BS, but that other BS is patently not enough since it couldn't carry either weapon its own.

 

Viral/Slash is definitely a problem, but similar to what I said waaay back at the start of this thread, it's not an either-or situation here. Both scaling mods and the busted damage system are problems, and they make each other worse. Just like Players being functionally invincible or having functionally infinite energy exacerbates the problems too.

My original point was nerfing melee does not make ranged better. The MK-1 Braton from your example did not become better because the Skana got weaker. While I maintain that the gap is often overstated, there does exist a gap in the output between range and melee weapons. The proverbial floor needs to be able to compete for lowing the ceiling to actually benefit the floor. Thanks for proving my point, I guess...

It is honestly baffling how you can in one paragraph solely blame Weeping Wounds, then in the latter admit that it works in tandem with Viral and Slash. It's so much the forest for the trees. If you think Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds are more to blame than Slash and Viral try E Prime Steel Path with a melee like the Bo Prime no Viral or Slash but Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. 

 

[Loza03]

20 minutes ago, (PSN)dday3six said:

My original point was nerfing melee does not make ranged better. The MK-1 Braton from your example did not become better because the Skana got weaker. While I maintain that the gap is often overstated, there does exist a gap in the output between range and melee weapons. The proverbial floor needs to be able to compete for lowing the ceiling to actually benefit the floor. Thanks for proving my point, I guess...

The Mk-1 Braton does not become better, because it does not need to become better.

The game is already comfortable at the power level that ranged weapons are at, and the level that Melee weapons are. Scaling mods put melee at a level beyond that. I should know - I don't use them, and I rarely have trouble with any content.

In short, ranged is not too weak. Melee, or more specifically, Melee with scaling mods is too strong.

38 minutes ago, (PSN)dday3six said:

It is honestly baffling how you can in one paragraph solely blame Weeping Wounds, then in the latter admit that it works in tandem with Viral and Slash. It's so much the forest for the trees. If you think Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds are more to blame than Slash and Viral try E Prime Steel Path with a melee like the Bo Prime no Viral or Slash but Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. 

Scaling mods are the issue - for Melee. They're the only thing Melee has that nothing else does. But Melee does not exist in a Vacuum.

Everything has to deal with Viral/Slash BS, so the problems it causes are totally different. They're an issue with the game's damage system as a whole, which is a far deeper problem. Scaling mods are a specific problem that cause an effect that puts melee dramatically out of proportion with an already-problematic system. Viral and Slash could be argued as a bigger problem sure, but this is a Melee-centric thread, where we are discussing the issues or lack therof of Melee, so naturally I am going to focus on the issue that is specific to Melee.

Having said that, in the interest of good Faith:

Spoiler

Faster than the Skana. And yes, I used Limbo again. I didn't use the Operator trick, you have my word.

[(PSN)dday3six]

47 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The Mk-1 Braton does not become better, because it does not need to become better.

The game is already comfortable at the power level that ranged weapons are at, and the level that Melee weapons are. Scaling mods put melee at a level beyond that. I should know - I don't use them, and I rarely have trouble with any content.

In short, ranged is not too weak. Melee, or more specifically, Melee with scaling mods is too strong.

Scaling mods are the issue - for Melee. They're the only thing Melee has that nothing else does. But Melee does not exist in a Vacuum.

Everything has to deal with Viral/Slash BS, so the problems it causes are totally different. They're an issue with the game's damage system as a whole, which is a far deeper problem. Scaling mods are a specific problem that cause an effect that puts melee dramatically out of proportion with an already-problematic system. Viral and Slash could be argued as a bigger problem sure, but this is a Melee-centric thread, where we are discussing the issues or lack therof of Melee, so naturally I am going to focus on the issue that is specific to Melee.

Having said that, in the interest of good Faith:

  Reveal hidden contents

Faster than the Skana. And yes, I used Limbo again. I didn't use the Operator trick, you have my word.

Pretty clear you don’t want to actually address counter points, so I’m just going to ignore most of this gish gallop. I simply want to point out the hilarity of you using a full build in ‘good faith’ when just Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds were what was said. It highlights your desire to be perceived as in the ‘right’ being far greater than your want of factual correctness. 

[Loza03]

Just now, (PSN)dday3six said:

Pretty clear you don’t want to actually address counter points, so I’m just going to ignore most of this gish gallop. I simply want to point out the hilarity of you using a full build in ‘good faith’ when just Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds were what was said. It highlights your desire to be perceived as in the ‘right’ being far greater than your want of factual correctness. 

Really? I felt like pointing out that the entire game is balanced for non-scaled weapons addresses the point that 'the floor needs to be raised'. Likewise, I explain why I'm focused on Scaling mods (they're exclusive to melee, this is a melee thread), and why them being a problem isn't mutually exclusive to Viral/Slash being a problem. Seems pretty well-addressed to me.

 

Also,

6 hours ago, (PSN)dday3six said:

That's why it is considered more accurate to test full builds. 

You complained when I didn't test a full build to highlight the power that Weeping Wounds has, even after I included a control variable of the same weapon without Weeping Wounds. That alone honestly shows off the disparity between WW and other Status mod, especially given that I compensated with higher base damage and base status in the control build but whatever, apparently that's insufficient. When I was requested to test the Bo Prime, as a result, I used a full build as you claim above that using a full build is more accurate, and did so to your specifications - omitting Viral on a slash-devoid weapon.  And now, using a full build makes the test less accurate?

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

On 2021-02-11 at 6:15 PM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

The words “depth” and “mechanics” are almost meaningless on their own. You might as well have just said “I want melee to be more enjoyable.”

Do you have any examples of what you’re referring to?

Actually I do. I am planning to make an in depth post on revising the main systems and game loop.

For melee, I've been thinking about overhauling melee to improve the experience and balance.

Giving melee a proper parry system, counter attacks,

light/close attack button, heavy/ranged attack button

giving it a lock on system of sorts

 air combos,

unique charge attacks for light and heavy,

modify the combos and how they function (fixing old combos, merging some, making new ones, etc.)

I also include ideas about adding more melee focused enemies (like ones you would find in dmc series, jedi fallen order, god of war 2018, Astral chain, spiderman ps4, etc), enemies that have resistances against either Melee or ranged weapons or are weak to either one or the other. Ranged enemies that are resistant to melee can work.

I'm typing on my phone so I am not properly explaining my ideas. Hopefully what I said makes sense.

The melee system has a lot of potential but it needs work. Lots of work. You can ask me if you want clarification on any points. Can't promise I will explain it properly...

[(PSN)dday3six]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You complained when I didn't test a full build to highlight the power that Weeping Wounds has, even after I included a control variable of the same weapon without Weeping Wounds. That alone honestly shows off the disparity between WW and other Status mod, especially given that I compensated with higher base damage and base status in the control build but whatever, apparently that's insufficient. When I was requested to test the Bo Prime, as a result, I used a full build as you claim above that using a full build is more accurate, and did so to your specifications - omitting Viral on a slash-devoid weapon.  And now, using a full build makes the test less accurate?

No. I pointed out that the power growth of weapons is not parallel and equalizing for that is troublesome. Your starting point was with an incomplete build though, and this functions well enough for what you were trying to demonstrate. However once you compare your results to a weapon with a full build you've added uncontrolled variables to one side which contaminates the accuracy of your findings.  

Again seems you're not after factual findings. This time revealing the previously omitted information of higher base damage and base status in your control build. Didn't think that was an important detail to mention before? Do you make it a habit to withhold info until you think it'll be helpful?  

[Loza03]

9 hours ago, (PSN)dday3six said:

No. I pointed out that the power growth of weapons is not parallel and equalizing for that is troublesome. Your starting point was with an incomplete build though, and this functions well enough for what you were trying to demonstrate. However once you compare your results to a weapon with a full build you've added uncontrolled variables to one side which contaminates the accuracy of your findings.  

Again seems you're not after factual findings. This time revealing the previously omitted information of higher base damage and base status in your control build. Didn't think that was an important detail to mention before? Do you make it a habit to withhold info until you think it'll be helpful?  

I wasn't going to even do any further tests until you asked, but that's really neither here nor there.

My point doesn't rely on the Bo Prime example, which is why adding it was in 'good faith' to begin with, since you specifically requested a further test and I didn't want to disappoint despite that. The point is that scaling mods are disproportionately more effective than other mods, as demonstrated by the first Skana test. This presents a problem, because melee weapons are therefore disproportionately better than other weapons. However, those ranged weapons and unscaled melee weapons are in proportion with each other, and at least faintly with enemies, despite the numerous other issues like Viral/Slash dominance.

 

Therefore, instead of buffing enemies and ranged weapons to be in line with Melee scaling mods (i.e. everything else in the game), it would be better to simply eliminate the outlier scaling mods.

[NinjaKitsune56]

On 2021-02-10 at 10:09 AM, Marvelous_A said:

Ammo efficiency is also an issue for guns

Guns have exilus slots, ammo mutation mods are exilus mods. Coincidence? I think NOT!

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

On 2021-02-10 at 2:15 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

There is a visible stat in game that shows how much damage you do after every consecutive enemy between 0.5 to 0.7 on average,

and most melee attacks don't go in the same direction repeatedly they will have a left to right to left to right swings , 

Just going back here to go back on what I said, I tested again and for some reason, follow through is actually working horizontally. 

Strange, because I tested it a long time ago and it just wasn't like that, but well, now it is (or maybe it already was and I didn't notice, which would be strange because I literally tested this specific aspect). But I was wrong, follow through works horizontally. 

But the fact is that means it is actually even more noticeable.

[zuraja]

On 2021-02-13 at 10:51 AM, NinjaKitsune56 said:

Guns have exilus slots, ammo mutation mods are exilus mods. Coincidence? I think NOT!

Even without using the exilus slot, guns routinely require four or five Formas to be able to use a proper build.  Meanwhile with melee I don't think I've ever needed to go past 2 unless I'm using a double sacrificial+riven build on something.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 minutes ago, zuraja said:

Even without using the exilus slot, guns routinely require four or five Formas to be able to use a proper build.  Meanwhile with melee I don't think I've ever needed to go past 2 unless I'm using a double sacrificial+riven build on something.

Use time management and applying 5 forma takes an hour. 

And you can't put CO, WW, BR and a Primed faction mod on a weapon with 2 forma. 

[NinjaKitsune56]

8 hours ago, zuraja said:

Even without using the exilus slot, guns routinely require four or five Formas to be able to use a proper build.

Really depends on the weapon and the build.
I've got guns that only needed 2 or 3 forma for a good build. In fact, aside from the Kuva weapons, the only weapon that I can recall adding 5 forma to is my Opticor.

[_Tormex_]

On 2021-02-10 at 2:10 PM, MqToasty said:

As a relatively new player here, I have to ask: is it necessarily a problem that melee is meta in this game?  Every game has its meta and no game can possibly (nor should the developers want to) balance every weapon.  There are already a handful of bosses that require us to shoot straight with a ranged weapon, there are sorties that lock us into certain weapon types, vehicular combat (archwing and necramech) are basically all-ranged affairs.  Is that not good enough?  Now I can go on about how this game is ostensibly about space ninjas so it should be all slice and dice, or about how being a 3rd person game makes aiming less precise, but I actually do not want to argue that melee should be meta.  I just want to ask if people actually see this as a problem, and if so, why?

No it isn't a problem. I totally agree with you. And the people saying guns are not viable are exaggerating/not modding correctly.

[_Tormex_]

On 2021-02-10 at 2:23 PM, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Of course guns are still perfectly viable in most content in this game, anything up to sorties at least. But when guns can barely scratch Steel Path enemies without some kind of debuff first, I’d say that’s a problem.

I have exclusively used the Kuva Chakkhurr for Steel Path missions that past few days and have had no problems. And it wasn't even max ranked because I was leveling it.

[_Tormex_]

On 2021-02-11 at 12:01 PM, Loza03 said:

Why nerf not buff: Because you'd need to buff everything as opposed to nerfing one thing. In fact, you'd actually only really need to nerf one or two parts of melee, since Melee's baseline performance is frankly just fine.

You literally just proposed to nerf ALL melee weapons lol

[Loza03]

Just now, _Tormex_ said:

You literally just proposed to nerf ALL melee weapons lol

Yes, as opposed to buffs to every ranged weapon, damaging ability and enemy in the entire game in a way that's completely unknown. As opposed to nerfing melee by eliminating a single clearly and demonstrably outlying variable with a known and currently-testable outcome as to how strong it'll be after the fact.

In terms of work needed, I'm obviously in no position to give accurate predictions, but I would be genuinely shocked if door A was less work than door B.

[_Tormex_]

The biggest issue I run into with melee vs primary/secondary weapons is the way mods work on them. Melee weapons all have stances that increase their mod capacity. One of the biggest problems I have with primaries and secondaries (especially secondaries) is that there isn't enough room in terms of mod space and capacity to put all of the necessary mods on the weapons. I think that adding a regular (not exilus) mod slot to all primary/secondary weapons (and possibly increasing the mod capacity some) would go a long way towards making primaries and secondaries feel better. One of the reasons melee needs less forma than primary/secondary is that 74>60.

TL,DR add extra mod space and capacity to guns

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

Thread seems to changed a bit from where it was initially. So I'll state what my proposed solution is and what I think of content creators.

First for content creators. I don't get the hate as most of them are providing a service to the player base.  I get that they aren't doing so without reward.  However, content creators and things like the wiki are doing more for helping players understand the mechanics than the developers do.  I appreciate the work they put in even if I don't consume their content.

Second I feel the issue is less that melee is really strong and brain dead.  More so that enemy interaction and gameplay encourage that playstyle.

A lot could be done by reducing enemy numbers and upping many of the their stats. The whole Nox/nullifier interaction comes to mind for me.  Suddenly you encounter an enemy that may require more attention.  These enemies being not just stronger numerically but interacting in a way that makes them deadlier would increase difficulty.  But for the longer ttk and different thinking these enemies should yield more loot and affinity. So a basic exterminate may take a couple minutes longer but you are guaranteed two levels on a weapon or frame. For rewards certain enemies are guaranteed rewards. (i.e. Eximus always drop mods, similar to bosses dropping blueprints. No bronze mods over a certain level.)

I have a hard time putting this into terms easily understood without mentioning other games. But things like the division, destiny, and anthem I have played relatively recently seem to have gathered this idea.  There are enemies that you run into that simply can't just be oneshot or accidentally kill just like that.  Having these enemies spawn regularly but fodder less.  Then increasing time to kill via existing mechanics (such as you can't melee this one,  need to use parazon within window, can only shoot specific part of body, etc.) would go a long way.

The cyclops, shield/flamethrower,  Black tusk drones something like these enemies that while not insanely strong require player attention.  We have this now with bursas, maniacs, nox, nullifier, and eximus units but they are often just a face in a crowd forcing us to pick the one option available. Even going as far as having shield drones making fodder largely invulnerable until killed could go a long way.  Especially if they dodged melee attacks and close weapon fire forcing the player to shoot out at distance before closing in. 

TLDR. Less but stronger enemies that require more complicated interaction. Slowing down time to kill even on lower level content.  But making it up by having the rewards and affinity balanced. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Thread seems to changed a bit from where it was initially. So I'll state what my proposed solution is and what I think of content creators.

First for content creators. I don't get the hate as most of them are providing a service to the player base.  I get that they aren't doing so without reward.  However, content creators and things like the wiki are doing more for helping players understand the mechanics than the developers do.  I appreciate the work they put in even if I don't consume their content.

Second I feel the issue is less that melee is really strong and brain dead.  More so that enemy interaction and gameplay encourage that playstyle.

A lot could be done by reducing enemy numbers and upping many of the their stats. The whole Nox/nullifier interaction comes to mind for me.  Suddenly you encounter an enemy that may require more attention.  These enemies being not just stronger numerically but interacting in a way that makes them deadlier would increase difficulty.  But for the longer ttk and different thinking these enemies should yield more loot and affinity. So a basic exterminate may take a couple minutes longer but you are guaranteed two levels on a weapon or frame. For rewards certain enemies are guaranteed rewards. (i.e. Eximus always drop mods, similar to bosses dropping blueprints. No bronze mods over a certain level.)

I have a hard time putting this into terms easily understood without mentioning other games. But things like the division, destiny, and anthem I have played relatively recently seem to have gathered this idea.  There are enemies that you run into that simply can't just be oneshot or accidentally kill just like that.  Having these enemies spawn regularly but fodder less.  Then increasing time to kill via existing mechanics (such as you can't melee this one,  need to use parazon within window, can only shoot specific part of body, etc.) would go a long way.

The cyclops, shield/flamethrower,  Black tusk drones something like these enemies that while not insanely strong require player attention.  We have this now with bursas, maniacs, nox, nullifier, and eximus units but they are often just a face in a crowd forcing us to pick the one option available. Even going as far as having shield drones making fodder largely invulnerable until killed could go a long way.  Especially if they dodged melee attacks and close weapon fire forcing the player to shoot out at distance before closing in. 

TLDR. Less but stronger enemies that require more complicated interaction. Slowing down time to kill even on lower level content.  But making it up by having the rewards and affinity balanced. 

Well yea, we already know this, but....we have a divided community....

Why would we want less spawns when the regular starchart already has terrible spawns? That was one of the major complaints and reasons we asked for Steel path. We wanted stronger enemies and not trickled in enemies that basically come 1 to 3 at a time. 

Have you ever done a defense on the new corpus tileset? You can fall asleep by the time the enemies get to the center of the map...

If you aren't aware, the enemy EHP was lowered awhile ago because of all the bad players that couldn't even handle the game beforehand....the bar was lowered for bad players, so why would they make the game harder? Many people can't even handle regular orb vallis corpus.....most people probably can't even kill a Kyta Raknoid....

When things are hard, people quit, which means less customers and money for DE. 

[thePlague4u]

Melee is not too strong.  Guns are just very weak and need to be buffed.  I would quit the game if melee was just as weak as guns. If you complainers want weaker melee then take off your mods but stop trying to make everything weak across the board.