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so why should I use a secondary weapon?


_Anise_
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I will just say I never used one, I never put as much effort into maxing one out because honestly they all feel meh, they are from the ones i tested, either low range, don't do enough damage or have ammo issues and just lack the punch primary weapons seem to have, so I never used them much outside balistika prime for its ghost summoning quirk.

so the new (and much needed) QOL allowing players without a secondary to carry a primary weapon and a mission objective at the same time or fire a primary while downed I am even less seeing the point of secondary weapons.

so convince me why I need a secondary weapon ? and suggest one that would be actually fun and comparable to a primary!

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I'm not gun person but there are at least few interesting one:

  • Azima - nice spamming 2nd function with protea
  • Knell - if you like headshot, "worse" Athodai (only 1 ammo vs more of athodai)
  • Kulstar - and below nice with range mods (forgot the name
  • Prisma Angstrum
  • Sancti castanas - I remember they were nice, I haven't tested them for long time
  • Zymos - I heard it's buggy but it's nice if you are into headshots
  • Catabolyst - little grenade at reload

There are probably more but wiki's list is not up to date afair.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Glen said:

I can't believe nobody's mentioned dual-wielding Glaives + Secondaries is awesome!

Just buff secondaries to be primaries, then allow us to carry 2 ranged weapons of any type plus a melee

You want to fix melee? Make it really strong burst damage that's recharged with gun kills, but runs on cooldown/ammo/heat gauge so that you cant spam it infinitely

Destiny has been doing all this for years and it feels so much better

Y'all already stole Xur and factions and RNG stat rolls, keep going

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5 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Honestly man whenever I see someone asking for advice I check their MR and their weapon preferences to give myself context. I took a glance and for me it's more about what secondaries you have, or rather don't have. Secondaries in general aren't long range, that's just how it is. But you're missing weapons like Kuva nukor, Pyrana prime, Catchmoon, Tombfinger, Staticor, Euphona prime and Brakk. Probably Mara detron as well. Generally players will use a short ranged secondary that hits like a truck and leave the range to primary though I see you use Fulmin so that might be an issue. My personal preference is a sniper rifle and short ranged hard hitting secondary but that's just me. In general though, the mods we have for secondaries trumps primaries, namely that we have Primed mods for crit damage so that's something to consider. For a secondary that will hit decently but not amazing but with some range, try Akstiletto Prime, Rattleguts or have some silly fun with the Kulstar.

though gawd Akbolto base is a chore to Rank for MR... it's accuracy is silly bad xD Prime version I like a lot but the normal is a pain. Then again both sides have them, I find Torid and Stug are also hard to rank up for MR amongst others

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1 minute ago, (PSN)Claudija said:

though gawd Akbolto base is a chore to Rank for MR... it's accuracy is silly bad xD Prime version I like a lot but the normal is a pain. Then again both sides have them, I find Torid and Stug are also hard to rank up for MR amongst others

For me those are just weapons I used ESO to rank in like 2 minutes lol. Anything I enjoy using I tend to rank in Adaro and actually use it.

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1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

... Lets not forget that I've tested this myself and I can only see it as a bug since primaries are not meant to be used while carrying objective items not are their animations compatible with carrying objective items...

I read about the Probosis Cernos bug, I think that's what you are reffering to? For Shedu and Bubonico being arm-mounted cannons, that specifically is not a bug.

Since you mentioned it, I wonder why we can use our two-handed and dual weilded secondaries while carrying an objective? Thrown secondaries like Kunai and akimbo style weapons are completely allowed without any penalty to firing rate.

To the OP: I used to main Staticor before it was nerfed (2 years ago?), it was amazing. If you don't want to use a secondary weapon, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot (figuratively).

4 hours ago, [DE]Glen said:

I can't believe nobody's mentioned dual-wielding Glaives + Secondaries is awesome!

@[DE]Glen There have been many changes to glaives, so I've been avoiding them because I don't understand parts of it. Can we get a video tutorial like we have for Zephyr and Railjack 3.0? Specifically to address:

  • How do I take advantage of glaives?
  • What distinct differences are there between "glaive-only" VS "glaive+gun"?
  • What mechanics are new (changes within the last year)?
  • What old mechanics are still in place?
  • How do I (using a controller) use glaives?

Thanks for your support!

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11 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

I will just say I never used one, I never put as much effort into maxing one out because honestly they all feel meh, they are from the ones i tested, either low range, don't do enough damage or have ammo issues and just lack the punch primary weapons seem to have, so I never used them much outside balistika prime for its ghost summoning quirk.

so the new (and much needed) QOL allowing players without a secondary to carry a primary weapon and a mission objective at the same time or fire a primary while downed I am even less seeing the point of secondary weapons.

so convince me why I need a secondary weapon ? and suggest one that would be actually fun and comparable to a primary!

I don't know. Do you not have the mods? Cause frankly the base stats on secondaries are junk. However Hornet strike is an enormous damage increase, and the primed crit mods are enormous CC, and CD increased. The crit focused secondaries because of those mods (and also the 2 good multishot mods) are stronger than the crit focused primaries. The best Condition overload proc'r in the game is the Kuva Nukor as a secondary followed by the Vermasplicer primary. Followed by meaning the secondary wins. I mean frankly there's only a couple of things that primaries have going right now that are better and only a couple of primaries can take advantage of those. Primed Firestorm has made the Kuva Ogris (with nightwatch napalm), The Mutalist Cernos, and Torid have absurd AOE that lingers. Secondaries don't have a match for that. And Primaries have hunter minunitions.  Without those two things factored in it's not even close. Secondaries hugely outperform primaries. 

Edited by exturkconner
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5 hours ago, [DE]Glen said:

I can't believe nobody's mentioned dual-wielding Glaives + Secondaries is awesome!

Well, if for Glaive you mean a "viral" Xoris with volatile rebound, blood rush, weeping wounds, then, ok, we may say thet it could be awesome...
BUT, this means that you can't play real melee (and real melee is "more" awesome)...

Things probably will be different if Glaives (and other light weapons like daggers, nunchaku, maybe whips) would have a separate category and come into play when wielding pistols...

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6 часов назад, [DE]Glen сказал:

I can't believe nobody's mentioned dual-wielding Glaives + Secondaries is awesome!

Havent you DE shown secondary + onehanded melee some years ago on some devstream? I want my WH40k comissar-style Vauban with a Vaykor Marelok + Dakra Prime.

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2 minutes ago, T-362 said:

Havent you DE shown secondary + onehanded melee some years ago on some devstream? I want my WH40k comissar-style Vauban with a Vaykor Marelok + Dakra Prime.

It was supposed to be part of the melee changes. We still haven't finished those changes as other elements haven't rolled out. However the addition of quick melee made dual wielding pointless. You don't have to switch to melee and take time anymore. You can fire your secondary and with one button press start swinging your melee. If they are still investing time in this they should really stop. It doesn't matter anymore.

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1 минуту назад, exturkconner сказал:

You can fire your secondary and with one button press start swinging your melee. If they are still investing time in this they should really stop. It doesn't matter anymore.

Sort of agreed, especially because now we have full combo moveset on quick melee too. One really cool thing that can be made to make "melee + secondary" look good and be useful is a new movesets for "slash and shoot" style of attacks or "stab + headshot" melee finishers.

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10 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

so convince me why I need a secondary weapon ? and suggest one that would be actually fun and comparable to a primary!

Picking a 2nd weapon with opposite fire mode of your 1st weapon is nice. Having a bullethose 1st, is complemented nicely with an explosion 2nd. Or vice versa. You'll have something ready for different situations.

Aksomati or akjagara prime are nice fast shooting ones. Tombfinger or sporelacer (or even kuva seer) are nice explosion ones.

Cheers

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When kitguns first hit as secondary only, I found that the arcanes they could take made them really useful. 

You can also do other fun things like building a high status weapon to load up status effects without compromising your primary. At higher levels you can have a status-dominant and high multishot Rattleguts to spray a pack of enemies to prime them for a CO melee build, as well as to slap them with the built-in radiation so they attack each other, and any other two elements--1 combined and 1 basic or combined--along with the already existing slash, impact, and puncture. Corrosive and heat can help bust up heavy armor more easily, for example.

Alternatively you can go for a high crit low status build and just focus on having the variety of damage types. I built my six-element secondary to pair with a primary covering other elements when the first Orb Vallis boss hit, so I'd need to spend less time making the boss vulnerable and more time laying down the damage, though that might not be ideal now that players have figured out the battle a bit more. 

Outside of kitguns, some secondaries are just plain fun to use. There's also the fun running secondary and glaive weapons. 

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17 hours ago, XAN3MK said:

Err, that's a blanket statement that holds no merit without context. Atomos is MR5, the Kitguns have no MR requirement, yet they'll outperform most secondaries (and primaries) with even basic components) Oh, and lets not forget that the Kuva weapons are also not mastery locked and you can have them as soon as you are done with the War Within. MR in and of itself means nothing, there are weapons that require MR12+ that are absolute garbage.

Well i did say there were outlires. And i agree that it holds no merit without context, but my entire point was about context.

Remember that this was my original point "Higher mod stats, but less DPS at base for weapons of the same MR generally (there are outlires). " when talking about how secondarys were stronger than primaries using prime mods as an example.

The point was that comparing any primary with any secondary would be pointless, thus MR is the context to slim that down. As you said, Kitguns and Kuva weapons are not MR locked. As such, you wouldnt count them when comparing two weapons at the same MR. Obviously.

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17 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Yes but seeing as OP can use ANY gun, that isn't a factor because we're not comparing what early guns he can use in primary and secondary, we're looking at every gun available.

I didnt say 'compare guns you can use'. What the OP can or cant use isnt the point. The point was that if your going to compare a primary and secondary, the best way for convenience is to look at similar MRs, as this relates more to how far along the game your expected to unlock it.

The OP can use any gun, so would it in your opinion be a good idea for him to compare the Kuva Bramma with the Lato and draw a conclusion about all primary / secondary balances from that?

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14 minutes ago, chaotea said:

The point was that comparing any primary with any secondary would be pointless, thus MR is the context to slim that down. As you said, Kitguns and Kuva weapons are not MR locked. As such, you wouldnt count them when comparing two weapons at the same MR. Obviously.

I agree with the first point, it is pointless to compare the primaries and secondaries, the latter vastly outscale the former (with few exceptions) if one has access to the adequate mods. On the subject of MR I absolutely disagree, because it is irrelevant. The equipment within each MR bracket is neither made equal nor comparable, just look at some of the pieces available across each bracket. Vasto Prime being MR10, Akmagnus and Pyrana being MR12 or Aklex Prime being MR15 are a good example of this - weapons that have a high MR requirement while offering mediocre to poor performance. (Not to mention the prohibitive acquisition of some of them.)

That you unlock everything by MR15 also makes the point mute. There is enough disposable MR fodder in the game, which makes removing the MR restrictions trivial.

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I found secondaries to be specialized, and far better, if you're looking for a different game play feel. If you want to bullet hose down enemies with an automatic, or spray fire/electricity everywhere for cleave damage, or launch huge rockets that explode rooms, primaries are far better. But if you're looking to precision aim single shots, or burst fire, or beam down entire rooms, or shot gun down enemies, secondary weapons are far better by a lot. Simply because the mods selection is far better.

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2 hours ago, XAN3MK said:

I agree with the first point, it is pointless to compare the primaries and secondaries,

Not what i said. I said it would be pointless comparing ANY primary with ANY secondary.

2 hours ago, XAN3MK said:

the latter vastly outscale the former (with few exceptions) if one has access to the adequate mods.

The mods outscale the % of growth, but primararys, thanks to a higher base stat value, still out perform most secondarys on average. Obviously outliers like the Kuva Bramma and Kuva Nukor (tbh, Kuva / Vandel, ect should be discluded from the conversation as they throw the numbers off) are exeptions.

2 hours ago, XAN3MK said:

On the subject of MR I absolutely disagree, because it is irrelevant. The equipment within each MR bracket is neither made equal nor comparable, just look at some of the pieces available across each bracket. Vasto Prime being MR10, Akmagnus and Pyrana being MR12 or Aklex Prime being MR15 are a good example of this - weapons that have a high MR requirement while offering mediocre to poor performance. (Not to mention the prohibitive acquisition of some of them.)

First, the only thing you've been saying is 'MR is irrelevent'. Yet you've not proposed any positive replacement for weapon comparisons. You're not adding to the conversation.

Also, you're consistantly taking the whole MR thing to the extreme. Its a general, touch all comparison we can use that doesnt involve hours of making a spreadsheet to work out the DPS or whatever. There are outliers. The Lato Prime is an MR14 gun. But so is Euphona Prime.

But lets to this with examples. To compare using MR as an example. I pick out a random MR. 10 seems good. Then I pick 3 weapons. Lets say the first 3 on each list, to ensure theres no bias. Note i picked MR and decided on the first 3 before looking at the wiki. So we have Amprex, Arca Plasmor & Astilla, in the primaries and Akbronco, Astilla & Arca Scisco.

Now its interesting that these primaries are certainly some of the better ones. Maybe no all end-game, but definatly favorable weapons, especially for the area of the game you should be at by MR10. Secondarys seem more a mixed bag, but the Astilla certainly is powerful. I'd say these 3 in both catagries, as an everage portray a similar level of power with the consideration that secondaries are supporting weapons.

 

3 hours ago, XAN3MK said:

That you unlock everything by MR15 also makes the point mute. There is enough disposable MR fodder in the game, which makes removing the MR restrictions trivial.

 

Again, and i cant believe i said this so many times, It doesnt make anything moot. (unless you did mean it turns the games sound off in which case thats a bug!)

We arnt using the MR as a restriction. We arnt judging guns soley on the MR. We arnt saying 'use X or Y because its got Z MR'. We are saying:  When comparing 2 weapons, especially two weapons in different catagories, (In a game with so many weapon types and variations) It is BETTER (Not nessisary. Not the only way.) to compare two weapons with similar MRs rather that two random weapons.

 

 

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1 hour ago, chaotea said:

Not what i said. I said it would be pointless comparing ANY primary with ANY secondary.

The mods outscale the % of growth, but primararys, thanks to a higher base stat value, still out perform most secondarys on average. Obviously outliers like the Kuva Bramma and Kuva Nukor (tbh, Kuva / Vandel, ect should be discluded from the conversation as they throw the numbers off) are exeptions.

First, the only thing you've been saying is 'MR is irrelevent'. Yet you've not proposed any positive replacement for weapon comparisons. You're not adding to the conversation.

Also, you're consistantly taking the whole MR thing to the extreme. Its a general, touch all comparison we can use that doesnt involve hours of making a spreadsheet to work out the DPS or whatever. There are outliers. The Lato Prime is an MR14 gun. But so is Euphona Prime.

But lets to this with examples. To compare using MR as an example. I pick out a random MR. 10 seems good. Then I pick 3 weapons. Lets say the first 3 on each list, to ensure theres no bias. Note i picked MR and decided on the first 3 before looking at the wiki. So we have Amprex, Arca Plasmor & Astilla, in the primaries and Akbronco, Astilla & Arca Scisco.

Now its interesting that these primaries are certainly some of the better ones. Maybe no all end-game, but definatly favorable weapons, especially for the area of the game you should be at by MR10. Secondarys seem more a mixed bag, but the Astilla certainly is powerful. I'd say these 3 in both catagries, as an everage portray a similar level of power with the consideration that secondaries are supporting weapons.

 

 

Again, and i cant believe i said this so many times, It doesnt make anything moot. (unless you did mean it turns the games sound off in which case thats a bug!)

We arnt using the MR as a restriction. We arnt judging guns soley on the MR. We arnt saying 'use X or Y because its got Z MR'. We are saying:  When comparing 2 weapons, especially two weapons in different catagories, (In a game with so many weapon types and variations) It is BETTER (Not nessisary. Not the only way.) to compare two weapons with similar MRs rather that two random weapons.

 

 

uhm Astilla is Gara's signature shotgun, it is not a Secondary....

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If you're a newer player, you probably haven't unlocked some of the more 'exotic' secondaries. 

That being said, you can run without a secondary if your primary is an assault rifle with a medium-low reload time. The best use for secondaries is to either have AOE (the new mushroom kitgun) or compensate for unwieldy primaries (Lenz, Bramma). The notorious Kuva Nukor has the ability to chain between large groups of enemies, which makes it perfect for clearing the room of 'trash mobs'. The Catabolyst has high damage and can decimate enemies packed in groups with its secondary fire.

One common strategy is to have the secondary weapons be 'primers'. Essentially, use them to apply status effects on armored targets and bosses. That isn't that big of a deal in the early game, but when the enemies become quite tanky it becomes necessary to give them a bunch of debuffs so they would 'soften up' for subsequent attacks. 

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3 hours ago, chaotea said:

First, the only thing you've been saying is 'MR is irrelevent'. Yet you've not proposed any positive replacement for weapon comparisons. You're not adding to the conversation.

Also, you're consistantly taking the whole MR thing to the extreme. Its a general, touch all comparison we can use that doesnt involve hours of making a spreadsheet to work out the DPS or whatever. There are outliers. The Lato Prime is an MR14 gun. But so is Euphona Prime.

But lets to this with examples. To compare using MR as an example. I pick out a random MR. 10 seems good. Then I pick 3 weapons. Lets say the first 3 on each list, to ensure theres no bias. Note i picked MR and decided on the first 3 before looking at the wiki. So we have Amprex, Arca Plasmor & Astilla, in the primaries and Akbronco, Astilla & Arca Scisco.

Well, you did the "addition" for me. With how wonky and inconsistent the spread of weapons across the MRs is, statistics and performance is the only relevant factor in comparing two weapons. For what's it worth, DE can do away with the MR requirements on the weapons and nothing of value will be lost - they don't add anything beside arbitrary restrictions to begin with. In a game with some many weapons, the majority of which are not good, the only way to make a sensible judgement is to look at the stats - you don't necessarily need to do spreadsheets, but opening up a builder and creating a relevant mod loadout to see how the numbers stack between multiple weapons go a long way.

The two outliers you picked up are a good example of why this is the case - both Lato Prime and Euphona Prime are MR14, neither of them is a good weapon.

As for the example, yeah, it is an unintentionally rigged comparison, the Amprex holds up very well vs anything the Star Chart, Sorties or Arbitrations can throw at you, while Arca Plasmor and Astilla are quite decent. (DE did the Plasmor dirty!) On the other hand, I would not wish the Akbronco or the Arca Scisco on anyone. They are not good for the investment one would need to put in them to make them even borderline viable.

I don't know what else to add, statistic and the context in which the weapon is used is about the only relevant metric to go by (so we won't compare sniper rifles vs room clearing weapons in situations where the odds are stacked against one of the sides). I can see where you are coming from with you argument, I really do, but in a game where investing in a weapon costs time and money (due to the mandatory investment of 'tato and ~5 forma to bring any weapon to a reasonable level), I can not in good conscience agree or recommend that anyone considers MR when comparing weapons - not as the solo factor, but as any factor pertaining to a comparison of any merit.

 

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1) Sortie requirement.

2) Secondary and melee are your only weapons available when carrying things.

3) Wider loadout versatility in mission.

4) You can give to NPC. If the weapon is good and modded properly, the NPC can be devastating.

5) Tenno specter requires a secondary to craft.

6) Excalibru Umbra, Wukong, and Mirage.

Edited by (PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk
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