Fair Play

[Ex4ngunat3]

In life we get paid for our work. If we make a mistake at work, we are still paid for our work, and we fix the mistake.

Warframe and Railjack has a policy that if you fail a mission, you don't get paid. No loot, You failed.

This isn't Fair Play.

If your employer had this policy no one at D.E. would ever get paid. No pay. There is a bug.

Doesn't sound fair, does it?

It is especially unfair if you didn't even cause the bug...or failed the mission because of a bug.

 

It is unfair if the mission has 3 parts and 45 minuted of work/play and fail at the final part. No loot. You failed.

3 days of coding and programming an a small bug isn't caught. No paycheck. There is a bug.

 

This policy isn't Fair Play, and creates "ill will" toward the game and D.E.

 

It is bad for your business and should be removed.

 

Fair Play makes every one happy.

 

 

[Raptoreagle2000]

Agree 110% 

[Ex4ngunat3]

Just an update...I spent 22 minutes, opened two prize vaults, prevented a catastrophic hull breach, killed many...

I cold not cover 10 defective coolant pipes and kill 4 engineers to prevent a Core Overload, so I get NOTHING that I earned. Zero. Zip.

 

Seven Hotfixes for this latest Railjack addition. Did anybody say, "You don't get paid for your hard work, because there are some bugs."???

Of course not. That wouldn't be fair. You worked hard and deserve to get paid. 

 

This policy isn't Fair Play, and creates "ill will" toward the game and D.E.

 

It is bad for your business and should be removed.

 

Fair Play makes every one happy.

[CephalonCarnage]

If you take away all challenges then you can complete or fail the mission and it matters not one bit. Then there's no point in playing if you win even by losing. the game is heading that way already, but this is too much.

I get why people are salty over it, the loot, the rewards are everything. I've been there myself, angry and failing for some stupid or inexplicable reason. But its not healthy for a game. might as well remove all the enemies and just have 1 big loot box in the middle of the map. Maybe with a lever you pull down on to roll the loot generator and then a load of resources come piling out the bottom. along with a merry jingle played and some flashing lights.

It still hurts but that's the way life is.

On 2021-03-25 at 7:50 PM, Ex4ngunat3 said:

In life we get paid for our work. If we make a mistake at work, we are still paid for our work

Said no combat solider going into battle, ever.

 

However, I can suggest a solution: if you fail the mission, you lose the warframe and all the equipment, and a new mission is created for you to go in and retrieve it all, loot included (with a different warframe and equipment from your inventory, obviously)

[Ex4ngunat3]

Thanks for your input.

Nobody wants free loot. I am just asking for the loot from completed work.

Railjack missions are made of several distinct parts, that have to be completed to move on in the mission. Why don't we get to keep that loot? Kill 6 Crew ships and defeat 80 fighters. That takes time and effort and generates loot. but it is not kept if we fail the overall mission.

Why not just pop up a reward screen, and then give the next part of the mission?

Why have a policy that generates ill will in the people that you want to spend money in your game?

 

What if you fail the mission because of a bug? A door won't open, an important enemy or enemies won't spawn, or spawn in an inaccessible area? Mistakes happen in programming a complex game. People would be less salty if they were given their earned loot as they moved through the mission.

 

"Said no combat solider going into battle, ever."

Soldiers and their Dependents DO get paid if they die in battle or in bed.  Soldiers count on their families being compensated if they make the ultimate sacrifice for their country.

 

"However, I can suggest a solution: if you fail the mission, you lose the warframe and all the equipment, and a new mission is created for you to go in and retrieve it all, loot included (with a different warframe and equipment from your inventory, obviously)"

That mission already exists in the game. (It's a stalker generated by an assassination).

 

In life we get paid for our work. If we make a mistake at work, we are still paid for our work. This continues to be true in life and should be true in this game.

 

This policy of "fail the mission, you get nothing" isn't Fair Play, and creates "ill will" toward the game and D.E.

 

It is bad for your business and should be removed.

 

Fair Play makes every one happy.

 

[Risakisa]

Absolutely not.

You don't kill the boss, you failed. Start again.

You don't beat the mission, you failed. Start again.

Video games are like this. You get rewarded for winning, not participating.

Sure, sometimes bugs happen or something else messes up that wasn't your fault. That should be fixed, not built around.

Imagine if this was some other game. Pretty much any other game. There when you die or screw up, you are sent back to your last checkpoint or save. Sometimes you get penalized further. Sometimes it's even game over.

[Ex4ngunat3]

You are a console player aren't you.

Console games are built around this concept. It works for consoles. You fail and it sends you back to the last save point, and you start again. 

Warframe does not work like a console game. It doesn't have save points. It isn't broken down into short segments that you can restart if you fail.

Railjack missions are made up of several discrete missions, each one leads to the next part. No save point after each part. If you fail at the end of the final part of the mission you are sent back to the beginning, past several (possible, but currently not in the game) "save points" not just the beginning of the final part.

Very different from a console game.

I would be fine if it was like a console game. Fail with the fighters and crew ships, start that part over? Great I am all for it. But that isn't the way it is.

 

"Video games are like this. You get rewarded for winning, not participating." Just not true.

There are many different types of video games besides console games. Most video games have different mechanics. Look around, just look at the top 10 best selling video games and see how many of them don't have console mechanics.

 

Warframe is a "looter, shooter" the loot is the participation reward.

 

 

In life we get paid for our work. If we make a mistake at work, we are still paid for our work. This continues to be true in life and should be true in this game.

 

This policy of "fail the mission, you get nothing" isn't Fair Play, and creates "ill will" toward the game and D.E.

 

It is bad for your business and should be removed.

 

Fair Play makes every one happy.

[MaddawgTL]

Ok, so in railjack if you fail you should still be rewarded?? But in normal starmap if you fail a mission you get nothing except maybe some exp. So am I missing something?? 

If a bug cause the mission to fail report it and move on. 

Also fair play? Where did that come from, I mean games are suppose to have a chance of failure or lost. If your suppose to be rewarded even if you loose you cheapen the game and make it meaningless. 

Equating playing warframe to work is stupid. Playing games is for fun and pleasure, work is trading time and work for money to pay bills. If playing a game is work for you I feel sorry for you.

Not going to say anymore.

[Ex4ngunat3]

Thanks for your input. 

I suggest you read the whole thread before you reply, as I have clearly explained my position in the thread.

If you decide not to....

Railjack missions are made up of several discrete missions, each one leads to the next part. Each of these mission is the equivalent of a single starchart mission. 

Now imagine if you didn't get loot from the planet nodes until you completed the entire planet. That is the current state of Railjack missions, except most times the fail is because of a bug (go read the bug reports) that has low priority to be fixed. 

"Equating playing warframe to work is stupid." Don't be rude.

Railjack becomes work about the 3rd of 4th time you try the same mission and fail because of the buggy mess it is.

"If a bug cause the mission to fail report it and move on." 

Railjack won't let you "move on" to the next node in the Veil until you have completed the node that is a buggy mess. 

After you have played the game for a while, I hope you will understand.

Good Luck

 

[BDMblue]

I’m fine with mission Gail letting you keep everything you have earned to that point. We all know bugs cause a lot of mission fails anyway.

[Galuf]

My opinion is that one should not ask for things that dumb down the experience and remove incentives. It is kind of impossible to fail missions if you know what you are doing as WF is already an extremly casual game that actually sacrifices a lot to be playable for the majority prospects players.

Now, the reason that it will never happen is that it really can't be balanced. Yes it would be fine for the very small portion of the community that struggles in the game, maybe a 10-20% ish of players extremly young and noob or playing with some forms of structural(physical or mental) handicaps, maybe they would even deserve a particular flag and adaptative rulesets for them to truely enjoy the game, but for the vast majority of the playerbase it would be used as a mean to get different things faster in the game and it would be a pain to balance tbh, in the same time it would absolutely ruin any incentive or tension in a game that is currently quite lacking in that department.

[Tsukinoki]

DE won't allow this for one reason: The player base abuses things to the point it ruins it for everyone else and is disruptive.  Therefore they stop you from getting rewards if you abort/fail a mission.

A good example of said abuse potentially ruining things for 3/4ths of a squad was the recent change DE made so that you only get rewards from corpus loot caves if you finish the mission successfully.  The reason for this?  Players would run the corpus loot cave, get the reward, and then abort/force a quick fail.  They would keep the rewards and start over rather then finishing the mission. 
Now think what happens if the host of a mission decides to go "Hey I got the loot cave reward, I'm aborting out!" without telling anyone else in the squad?  A host migration for everyone else that could quite possibly cause them to lose all of their rewards!
And this actually happened!  Over and over again once players found out you could do that so DE specifically patched it out!

And a small history lesson: Back in the day warframe did let you keep your rewards if you lost/aborted.  Guess what tons of players did to the complete detrimate of everyone else?  Get a drop from an enemy and then abort out to do another run rather than finish the mission.  It was a complete gamble of whether the mission would finish without a host migration that would cause you to lose all of the rewards.
And the perpetrators didn't care at all what it did to other players.  After all they got their rewards so hope you enjoy your host migration!

Its why pretty much every reward form spy, sabo caches, railjack POIs, some bosses, and the like are all "unidentified items": to stop players from going "Did I get the drop I wanted?  Time to abort out and then try again because its faster than finishing the mission!"
It was a huge problem back in the day when it was allowed, which is why DE actively prevents people from getting rewards from aborted/failed missions.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Imagine you're bounty hunter you fail to do the bounty and you still want to be paid cause you tried. Of course you're not getting payed for failure.

bug? Report it

[Ex4ngunat3]

@Tsukinoki

Thanks for your reply. Very informative.

I tell me that DE sees problems but doesn't fix them very well.

It sounds like the "unidentified items" solution solved the problem but DE chose to punish the players anyway. Lol.

Thanks again for the reply.

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

On 2021-03-25 at 12:50 PM, Ex4ngunat3 said:

In life we get paid for our work. If we make a mistake at work, we are still paid for our work, and we fix the mistake.

Warframe and Railjack has a policy that if you fail a mission, you don't get paid. No loot, You failed.

This isn't Fair Play.

If your employer had this policy no one at D.E. would ever get paid. No pay. There is a bug.

Doesn't sound fair, does it?

It is especially unfair if you didn't even cause the bug...or failed the mission because of a bug.

 

It is unfair if the mission has 3 parts and 45 minuted of work/play and fail at the final part. No loot. You failed.

3 days of coding and programming an a small bug isn't caught. No paycheck. There is a bug.

 

This policy isn't Fair Play, and creates "ill will" toward the game and D.E.

 

It is bad for your business and should be removed.

 

Fair Play makes every one happy.

 

 

This is a videogame. If I make a mistake at work, hundreds of thousands of people will die.

That's the difference.

[Tsukinoki]

15 minutes ago, Ex4ngunat3 said:

@Tsukinoki

Thanks for your reply. Very informative.

I tell me that DE sees problems but doesn't fix them very well.

It sounds like the "unidentified items" solution solved the problem but DE chose to punish the players anyway. Lol.

Except not really.

What would be faster (and therefore done much more often/aggressively, even to the detriment of the rest of the squad):
-You do a quick 30 second jaunt to a side objective (such as the corpus lootcave) and grab its reward.  Its unidentified but you do a quick fail/abort and get back to your drydock with the reward in hand since you keep the reward if you fail/abort.

-You do the quick 30 second jaunt to the corpus lootcave, grab its reward.  Its unidentified and you finish the mission in its entirety and get the reward since you succeeded.

What the playerbase proved back in the day is that they would do the first one.  After all the item will be identified when the mission ends whether you win or not so why not just cut out all the time actually finishing the mission?

The big reason behind the "unidentified item" was to stop players from going "Ok got the reward and it is not what I want...gonna abort and try again" until finally "Ok, got the reward and it is what I want, time to actually finish the mission!"

They work together to prevent the abort/fail abuse that could easily cause a host migration and lost progress and rewards for the other members in the squad.  You only get the reward if you succeed the mission, and you don't know what reward you got until you succeed the mission.
Those two together prevent the abuse entirely.
If you know what the item is (even if you don't get it because you failed/aborted) you will still have abort farming because you can tell immediately "This is what I'm after" and know whether finishing the rest of the mission is worth it.  This was seen during the initial release of the Accolytes and their mods where the drops weren't obscurred and players would find the accolyte, kill them, check the mod, and abort if it wasn't the rare one worth the most plat.  They would only ever finish the mission if the reward was the one they were after.
Likewise if you get the item you completed the objective for, regardless if you succeed or fail the mission, it doesn't matter if the item is identified at the time of pickup its still faster to grab that objective, secure that reward, and then abort/fail and try again right away instead of doing the rest of the mission.
One without the other doesn't do the job of preventing the abort/fail abuse that ruined matchmaking completely back when it was actually possible to do.

I mean hek the lootcave is a good example of the "unidentified item" not working on its own.  The loot cave would give you an "unidentified item" that if you aborted you would keep...which could turn into a carmine penta piece.  It didn't matter if they knew what they got at the time they got something so time to leave.

And it wasn't just those rarer drops that people abort farmed back in the day.  They did it over rare resources even.  It was to the point of "Oh I got the neurode drop I was after...cya" and they would just abort the mission.  Hopefully it wasn't the host that did this.

[minininja77]

On 2021-03-27 at 12:37 PM, Ex4ngunat3 said:

Nobody wants free loot. I am just asking for the loot from completed work

Sadly this can not happen as people would do the "loot vaults" then abort mission to fail it to get only what they want over and over 

[Soy77]

I'm a little confused with the main point of this thread. Is it demanding something in return because DE doesn't do good job at eliminating bugs?

 

Because with that logic, if i fight a deviljho for 40 minutes in monster hunter, then failed at 44th minute mark, i should still get paid. Half deviljho gem sounds fair?

Or racing game. 20 laps, 10 racers. I lead for 19 laps, then screwed at final lap last corner, 9 other racers passes me. I should still be rewarded?

Thanks in advance for the explanation.

PS: i work in private services. We unfortunate workers only get paid when we get the job done.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

7 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

Because with that logic, if i fight a deviljho for 40 minutes in monster hunter, then failed at 44th minute mark, i should still get paid. Half deviljho gem sounds fair?

I mean if you broke his head and chest there's a chance to get it

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

On 2021-03-30 at 5:43 AM, Risakisa said:

Absolutely not.

You don't kill the boss, you failed. Start again.

You don't beat the mission, you failed. Start again.

Video games are like this. You get rewarded for winning, not participating.

Sure, sometimes bugs happen or something else messes up that wasn't your fault. That should be fixed, not built around.

Imagine if this was some other game. Pretty much any other game. There when you die or screw up, you are sent back to your last checkpoint or save. Sometimes you get penalized further. Sometimes it's even game over.

 

Well..... Destiny/2 Crucible PvP had Participation based rewards. it was completely random what loot you got at the end of match, win or lose, no matter your ranking.

Basically as long as you had at least 1 assist it counted as participating in the match and you have the same shot at legendary rewards as the guy with the top score...

 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

 

You're saying, if the game glitches/bugs out, it should detect it and not punish the player.

 

This is the classic "Turing Halting Problem" from computer science.

It's been a long times since college and I'm rusty, so I'll leave it to you to look up the logical proofs; but the gist of it is that it isn't possible for a computer program to predict it's own failure.

[Soy77]

40 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

I mean if you broke his head and chest there's a chance to get it

You're absolutely correct. Never thought of it but we do get to keep all the herbs we picked even if the hunt is failed, isn't it?

Probably monster hunter is the worst example. Everybody knows we don't hunt monsters to extinction for the rewards, but for the thrill of the hunt 😎

[ReddyDisco]

On 2021-03-30 at 6:13 PM, Risakisa said:

Absolutely not.

You don't kill the boss, you failed. Start again.

You don't beat the mission, you failed. Start again.

Video games are like this. You get rewarded for winning, not participating.

Sure, sometimes bugs happen or something else messes up that wasn't your fault. That should be fixed, not built around.

Imagine if this was some other game. Pretty much any other game. There when you die or screw up, you are sent back to your last checkpoint or save. Sometimes you get penalized further. Sometimes it's even game over.

pretty much this

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Lol! You just gotta get better at the game, my friend.

[TARINunit9]

On 2021-03-25 at 12:50 PM, Ex4ngunat3 said:

In life we get paid for our work. If we make a mistake at work, we are still paid for our work, and we fix the mistake.

Warframe and Railjack has a policy that if you fail a mission, you don't get paid. No loot, You failed.

This isn't Fair Play.

If your employer had this policy no one at D.E. would ever get paid. No pay. There is a bug.

Bad equivocation

Warframe. Operative word, War. You aren't an employee, you're a soldier. This is war. If you fail, you don't slink off to the boss and ask for your paycheck, because you're dead. No loot for you because you're dead. Enemies take it all, bad end. Better luck next time.