I disagree with moving Oberon and Ash parts to Railjack.

[NeoRetro10K]

Oberon was a very beginner friendly Warframe, in the form of a caster as opposed to Rhino's tank. While an individual part was not guaranteed by an Eximus unit, it was accepted that a player would eventually accumulate all the parts, and then some extras.

And Ash, while a very potent solo Warframe - with the right mods - he is lackluster without those mods, and/or in teamplay. His parts were harder to get, presumably due to his potential, but would not have been so hard to get if Manics were as common as they had once been when they were released (and perhaps Manics deserve to be more common anyway, since their offensive power was toned down long ago).

But now, players looking for Oberon or Ash for the first time are gated by Rising Tide, which in turn requires that The Second Dream also be completed. All of this requires progression up to Neptune, and then they are expected to play Railjack missions, which generate quite a spike in difficulty compared to other missions with similar enemy levels.

Now, I am not a new player by any means. I had gotten Oberon and Ash long ago and have since acquired their Prime versions. I have amassed countless Oberon parts in my time, and a good number of Ash parts as well. I am also well kitted out for Railjack at any mission level currently on the Proxima chart. But that does not mean that I have forgotten what it is like to be new. It seems to me that Oberon, especially, was meant for newer players; his abilities are useful almost anywhere, and yet there are other Warframes that are more effective at higher enemy levels, and in different aspects of his ability kit. And now newer players have a less diverse pool of Warframes to work with in the early game. Further, for those who are better prepared for Railjack missions such as myself, Oberon and Ash - long since acquired through the old methods - are just meaningless filler in the reward tables. Whether old or new, it just feels bad for all players.

I understand there are other issues people have with the new Corpus Railjack missions in terms of their content structure (time spent in space combat vs. in regular ground missions). I empathise and agree with that, but those issues will understandably take a lot of time to find balanced solutions for. Rewards and enemy drops, on the other hand, are just some variables to change in Railjack and re-add to enemy droptables. As such, I would see the drop locations/acquisition methods for Oberon and Ash simply reverted; and possibly make Manics more common, but not overwhelmingly so.

[(PSN)c1234567890alvi]

Oberon does not belong in Veil Proxima, you're fully right there. 
Ash though, having him obtainable in Railjack is better than being dropped by manics, but as you said he is one of those frames that should definitely not be put behind a wall like that. 
Harrow on the other hand...

[NeoRetro10K]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Oberon does not belong in Veil Proxima, you're fully right there. 
Ash though, having him obtainable in Railjack is better than being dropped by manics, but as you said he is one of those frames that should definitely not be put behind a wall like that. 
Harrow on the other hand...

I agree, in that Manics are also not very common in the first place. That is why I also would appreciate them being more common. Bursas show up in Corpus missions when the alarm has been left on for too long, and I am fairly sure I remember Manics used to work that way too, when they were first released. Now they only show up in Survival (after 15 whole minutes), Defection, and in niche cases in Disruption (a specific Conduit debuff).

It also would not hurt if Ash were allowed to drop from Drekar Manics as well, and would thus be somewhat farmable on Uranus as they used to be before Tyl Regor's rework. It would be a nice reward, since the Tyl Regor fight drags out so much already with the number of parts you need for Equinox; with the time spent fighting Tyl Regor, you might as well have a chance to get a part for another Warframe from the guaranteed Drekar Manic spawns for your troubles.

Also, Harrow definitely needs a new spot. The Chassis (Void Fissures) is fine since it is common enough, and Harrow is already associated with the Void due to Rell's connection with the entity in it; but the Neuroptics and Systems grinds are ridiculous. Since his quest requires War Within, he is associated with that as well, so I think maybe enemies corrupted by Requiem Fissures instead of T1-T4 ones would drop the Neuroptics instead of the Chassis, since Requiem Fissures are found in the Kuva Fortress anyway. Finally, the Systems drop chance should be greatly buffed in Defection, ALONGSIDE replacing some junk drops in Infested Salvage for some variety of choice in missions, as long as Nidus part chances were not sacrificed for this (and incidentally, the chance of Nidus parts themselves could be buffed too). I would be open to other alternatives too, of course.

[lukinu_u]

Totally agree, they should move them back to their old drop locations, and maybe replace their railjack drop with their prime relics ? (since they want to do some permanant unvaults)

[Drasiel]

31 minutes ago, NeoRetro10K said:

I agree, in that Manics are also not very common in the first place. That is why I also would appreciate them being more common. Bursas show up in Corpus missions when the alarm has been left on for too long, and I am fairly sure I remember Manics used to work that way too, when they were first released. Now they only show up in Survival (after 15 whole minutes), Defection, and in niche cases in Disruption (a specific Conduit debuff).

It also would not hurt if Ash were allowed to drop from Drekar Manics as well, and would thus be somewhat farmable on Uranus as they used to be before Tyl Regor's rework. It would be a nice reward, since the Tyl Regor fight drags out so much already with the number of parts you need for Equinox; with the time spent fighting Tyl Regor, you might as well have a chance to get a part for another Warframe from the guaranteed Drekar Manic spawns for your troubles.

Also, Harrow definitely needs a new spot. The Chassis (Void Fissures) is fine since it is common enough, and Harrow is already associated with the Void due to Rell's connection with the entity in it; but the Neuroptics and Systems grinds are ridiculous. Since his quest requires War Within, he is associated with that as well, so I think maybe enemies corrupted by Requiem Fissures instead of T1-T4 ones would drop the Neuroptics instead of the Chassis, since Requiem Fissures are found in the Kuva Fortress anyway. Finally, the Systems drop chance should be greatly buffed in Defection, ALONGSIDE replacing some junk drops in Infested Salvage for some variety of choice in missions, as long as Nidus part chances were not sacrificed for this (and incidentally, the chance of Nidus parts themselves could be buffed too). I would be open to other alternatives too, of course.

the manics still trigger in normal missions their requirements are just rather specific. They will only spawn if

1. It is a grineer mission
2. The alarms are going off
3. the enemy level is above 20 for the mission at minimum

Then even with all of that you will only get a single spawn of a manic per mission and it's entirely possible for them to get stuck in a wall somewhere. The reason bursas "work" is because they aren't limited to 1 spawn.

Having warframe parts located in railjack is a good idea, it adds something the community was begging for: ties back into the main game so it's not so much of an island. Oberon being moved there is odd to me as well though since he's a really good beginner frame and easy to run with bare minimum mods. Honestly I'd suggest moving baruuk from orb vallis into railjack because the vallis already has 2 frames in it and try to figure out a different way to get oberon entirely because while you will get it from eximus eventually people on the bad end of the bell curve really suffered trying to get him. Maybe exterminate caches or something?

edit: maybe make him another nightwave frame?

[Petroklos]

I think that Ash if fine, not my number one choice but not a bad one either.

Oberon I just don't get. A very common and good early Frame, is now placed so late in the game.

This was a wasted opportunity to fix some notoriously awful farms, like Nidus and Harrow.

[Lutesque]

3 hours ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Oberon does not belong in Veil Proxima, you're fully right there. 
Ash though, having him obtainable in Railjack is better than being dropped by manics, but as you said he is one of those frames that should definitely not be put behind a wall like that. 
Harrow on the other hand...

Oh Common... With the Nerf to Covert Lethality, Arcane Trickery and Melee Rework... Ash isn't so good that he needs to be this painful to acquire....

I vote for a Miss Trial 😤  and for Ash to be aquitted of all Charges !!!

2 hours ago, NeoRetro10K said:

 

It also would not hurt if Ash were allowed to drop from Drekar Manics as well, and would thus be somewhat farmable on Uranus as they used to be before Tyl Regor's rework

DE: "Farming 2 Frames at once ? Can't Have That." 

Proceeds to rearrange drop Sources....😈

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

 

Having warframe parts located in railjack is a good idea, it adds something the community was begging for: ties back into the main game so it's not so much of an island.

I think they are doing this Backwards.... The main game should be dropping stuff that allows you to get Started Smoothly in Railjack.... Not the other way around....

This isn't even specific To Rail Jack either anytime to venture into non-traditional Warframe stuff you always start with Absolutely nothing and the content demands more. It's like that with:

Conclave...

Spoiler Mode....

Archwing...

Conservation....

Profit Taker...

You know the whole reason I did Profit Taker was so I could upgrade my Spoiler Mode just to make doing Profit Taker Easier ?

That's the level of backwards Warframe's Progression Structure is....

2 hours ago, Petroklos said:

 

This was a wasted opportunity to fix some notoriously awful farms, like Nidus and Harrow

Don't forget Khora 😛 !!!

[Zeddypanda]

4 hours ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Ash though, having him obtainable in Railjack is better than being dropped by manics

When they announced they were putting Ash "into railjack", I foolishly thought this as well. Surely, any other acquisition method than the manic grind would be better?

Turns out nope. 11% chance that 20 waves of corpus ship defense will drop a specific part, spread over 3 different nodes. I have to assume you're not aware of this. You're on PSN. My advice for you is to farm him now (and an extra systems), before it's too late.

[silver5430]

There are better frames to put in railjack than Oberon and Ash.

Nidus, Harrow, Grendel, Saryn, Trinity, Hildryn etc are all pains in the ass to get and they all could be added to railjack loot as an alternative way of getting them.

[Teodzero]

I'm not entirely sure about Ash, but Oberon absolutely should not have been moved. It's newbie friendly, it's easy to farm and, most importantly, it's the earliest healer one could get. Some people just like to play healer, even if this role isn't as vital in Warframe as in some other co-op games. But now all healers are essentially behind TWW, while the starchart is filled with easily accessible damage and tanks. 

[Drasiel]

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Oh Common... With the Nerf to Covert Lethality, Arcane Trickery and Melee Rework... Ash isn't so good that he needs to be this painful to acquire....

I vote for a Miss Trial 😤  and for Ash to be aquitted of all Charges !!!

DE: "Farming 2 Frames at once ? Can't Have That." 

Proceeds to rearrange drop Sources....😈

I think they are doing this Backwards.... The main game should be dropping stuff that allows you to get Started Smoothly in Railjack.... Not the other way around....

This isn't even specific To Rail Jack either anytime to venture into non-traditional Warframe stuff you always start with Absolutely nothing and the content demands more. It's like that with:

Conclave...

Spoiler Mode....

Archwing...

Conservation....

Profit Taker...

You know the whole reason I did Profit Taker was so I could upgrade my Spoiler Mode just to make doing Profit Taker Easier ?

That's the level of backwards Warframe's Progression Structure is....

Don't forget Khora 😛 !!!

I don't disagree but I think it's very much something that has to be a two way street if the move is towards inter-connectivity.

[DrivaMain]

On 2021-03-29 at 6:29 AM, NeoRetro10K said:

I agree, in that Manics are also not very common in the first place

Wrong.

Manics are very easy to get. Neptune defection always spawns a manic in less than 5 minutes into the mission. Not to mention that Lich survival missions also spawn manics before the 5 minute mark.

This is by far the change I disliked most in the update. This change need be reverted immediately. It only makes the terrible new player experience even worse.

[ShortCat]

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Wrong.

Manics are very easy to get. Neptune defection always spawns a manic in less than 5 minutes into the mission

1 unit spawn tied to a specific game mode as well as a lvl and time restriction is the very definition of "not very common". Manic should be more common in any endless game mode, their spawns should go up with mission time and replace common units.

[Lutesque]

18 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

1 unit spawn tied to a specific game mode as well as a lvl and time restriction is the very definition of "not very common". Manic should be more common in any endless game mode, their spawns should go up with mission time and replace common units.

People who already have Ash might want Manics to be less Common....

[ShortCat]

2 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

People who already have Ash might want Manics to be less Common....

Why? Manics are interesting units, who may even threaten a player. The game needs more units like that, not less.

[Lutesque]

3 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Why? Manics are interesting units, who may even threaten a player. The game needs more units like that, not less.

They are Glitchy Nuisances.... I had my fill of them while farming Harrow System's....

Also what the game needs are units that allow a Back and forth Interaction.... Not Units that just Blind Side you out of the blue....

 

[quxier]

11 hours ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Oberon does not belong in Veil Proxima, you're fully right there. 
Ash though, having him obtainable in Railjack is better than being dropped by manics, but as you said he is one of those frames that should definitely not be put behind a wall like that. 
Harrow on the other hand...

Wait... Harrow... wall.... HA! That (his grind) make sense!

[EinheriarJudith]

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

They are Glitchy Nuisances.... I had my fill of them while farming Harrow System's....

Also what the game needs are units that allow a Back and forth Interaction.... Not Units that just Blind Side you out of the blue....

 

i actually like the manics myself. i would get rid of their invincibility give them the nox treatment.

[Electropuncher]

Return Oberon to Eximus units, add Harrow to Railjack. There. Fixed.

[NinjaZeku]

Honestly, no regular Frame should be put behind a 20 Wave Corpus Defense (urgh that map),
now if it was Relics for their Primes, permanently unvaulted like Nyx & Valkyr, that'd be a different matter
... though that still brings back nightmares of the old Void farming days, tiny chance to get Ash Prime Systems from T3 Survival Rotation C nooooo

But seriously, it's such a wildly baffling if not infuriating change to make both of these Frames that much harder to farm,
Oberon in particular just was such a good pick for an early Frame to craft (not least resource-wise, you can get everything before Ceres potentially),
and Ash is just a decently fun Frame that's not even quite as OP as certain other Frames with invisibility and whatnot, so just ... why.

PLEASE return those Frame parts to their previous sources, increase Manic spawn and / or drop rates for Ash parts
(plus add a small chance to the Tyl Regor boss fight Manics, he's the boss that used to drop Ash, honor that goshdarnit),
put something truly worthwhile on Railjack Defense that honors the investment needed to get to that point.

[NeoRetro10K]

54 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Honestly, no regular Frame should be put behind a 20 Wave Corpus Defense (urgh that map),
now if it was Relics for their Primes, permanently unvaulted like Nyx & Valkyr, that'd be a different matter
... though that still brings back nightmares of the old Void farming days, tiny chance to get Ash Prime Systems from T3 Survival Rotation C nooooo

But seriously, it's such a wildly baffling if not infuriating change to make both of these Frames that much harder to farm,
Oberon in particular just was such a good pick for an early Frame to craft (not least resource-wise, you can get everything before Ceres potentially),
and Ash is just a decently fun Frame that's not even quite as OP as certain other Frames with invisibility and whatnot, so just ... why.

PLEASE return those Frame parts to their previous sources, increase Manic spawn and / or drop rates for Ash parts
(plus add a small chance to the Tyl Regor boss fight Manics, he's the boss that used to drop Ash, honor that goshdarnit),
put something truly worthwhile on Railjack Defense that honors the investment needed to get to that point.

Agreed!

[rastaban75]

A large part of the problem is that this is "buried" behind Railjack defense missions. Typically people who are interested in Railjack won't go for rotation C in defense because it's the space combat they are interested in, and in general players tend to do long defense missions for relics where there is a certain motivation per round of 5 waves. On top of that, this particular defense mission is one of the worst possible because of the map design. Even people who like the map for their own reasons can't deny that enemies tend to get stuck often in distant corridors or corners making the whole process annoying, tedious and time-consuming.

In my opinion, both Oberon and Ash do not belong there. Thematically they both fit better the dojo lab for research as they are some of the most standard frames out there, with Oberon being some sort of paladin/druid (and beginner-friendly), while Ash is the quintessential ninja. The labs are also in dire need of some updates.

[MrCrazyAz]

Agreed.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Moving Oberon in to dilute the drop tables for late game missions is a sick joke.  The people running the missions Oberon drops in now probably had 100's of sets sitting in their inventories before the change was made.  I know they legalized Mary Jane up in Canada, but I was unaware Crack was on the menu.

[MechaBouncer]

Going to add my voice in here too. Moving Oberon to Railjack is a bad move. The reasons have already been stated. Ash was fine where he was. There are a number of frames that would have been a better pick for this. Harrow is a very good candidate. There are several others already named in this thread that would be good candidates because of their excessive barriers to acquisition. Some like Hildryn I still haven't earned the normal way and had to buy to be able to use at all because of the content wall put up to access her blueprint. Making newbie friendly frames inaccessible to them is bad form and is just going to lead to them being used even less.