Josh Strife Hayes and Warframe

[L3512]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I can agree with most of your post, but part of the problem at the moment for Warframe is that the behavior being rewarded is to turn off the game mechanics and get to the end as fast as possible 😕.

Which is sort of a given for any game if the reward is considered strong enough by the individual player; cheese the game to get through it faster and easier, meta the game to get through it faster and easier, cheat to get through the game faster and easier. Players may bypass the game itself to reach the end in most other games. Warframe makes it really easy to do so

Like any other game, Warframe offers options to actually play the game. But how do we convince players to take said options and value the game itself more and valueing the reward less (which may end up not even finding much use in the game if they're already commited to turning it off). The two work in tandem; the game and the reward, and the interpreted value of the two need to be balanced accordingly

The choice to not chase the reward isn't a thing that will easily come from within the player; it most often needs some help from the outside, since sometimes it only seems logical to chase the reward at the cost of whatever else (why would I not?).

A headscratching conundrum that personally I don't know how to solve.

edit: I’m not convinced it’s completely on DE, though they ultimately give us the game with which to have this situation in. At some point, we the community come into play in this situation; the desire to get the reward is most certainly going to be there all the time, but we can either amplify it [the desire], or help tone it down so that a player doesn’t feel completely compelled to chase the reward to their own detriment, and they’ll still look forward to the reward when they get it.

And right now, it feels like it’s being heavily amplified

 

When railjack first can out it combined 2% drop chance at the end of missions with randomized stat and huge resource costs for some key components. Railjack was a combination of bad design and a massive list of bugs of which some mission breaking ones like the grineer door BS lasted until very recently.

In the face of this players did either three things.

1. Gave up playing it

2. became very good at playing it

3. complained (this is a joke, everyone complained there was only 2 choices.)

So while I do not think it's acceptable and is not an excuse, you can understand how ugliness arose if someone held up a 2 minutes GP run. 

DE treated their players like crap when Railjack came out and elements in the community echoed it.

 

All this is in contrast to most of what railjack is today, a game mode where you can get a multitude of resources and it is pretty good value as time spent. Increasing the rewards and nerfing enemies (multiple times) has made the game mode pretty casual friendly but still rewarding skilled play (as opposed to something like survival).

Long way of saying people want rewards, DE tries to balance it and sometimes it works and other times it needs work. As for valuing the gameplay itself that's an up to individual players. I personally never do conservation because I find it boring, no rewards would make it fun for me but a decent reward might see me doing it (nightwave challenge is not enough.) but maybe there are people out there that like it.  

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If the only way to make players so much as touch Conclave is to dangle a carrot at the end of it all, then that in itself is also an admission that Conclave is not intrinsically enjoyable, so it does in fact come back to the issue being argued. The player complaining in that tweet visibly wasn't concerned about the game's incentive structure, so much about players getting the rewards they toiled for more easily.

 

But I'm NOT saying it's the "only" way...  And to be fair, these forums are LITTERED with discussion/complaints about "rewards" being the motivating factor in much of Warframe.  What makes Conclave any different?

I, for one, play modes like Conclave for the FUN...and the CHALLENGE... but it'd be cool to get some fun cosmetics out of it, too.  Or mods to use IN the mode...  Standing, imo, just gains MUCH slower in Conclave than any other faction in-game... which can make progress feel painfully slow.

When coupled with poor/non-existent matchmaking, it can be a deterrent.    

Nobody is arguing that Conclave needs rewards to be FUN, just to entice people to give it a try, perhaps, and stick with it more than one (potentially very bad) match.  

Most any PvP has basic "Rewards" in ANY game.  Even modern fighters often offer "Credits" to get other fighters or skins, etc.  Nothing wrong with that...and it doesn't mean the "mode must be trash", either.  

Offering people extra value for their time invested isn't covering for bad stuff... it's just offering MORE VALUE.  Because in business, giving more value than you get from the customer ensures consistent business with that customer.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I can agree with most of your post, but part of the problem at the moment for Warframe is that the behavior being rewarded is to turn off the game mechanics and get to the end as fast as possible 😕.

Which is sort of a given for any game if the reward is considered strong enough by the individual player; cheese the game to get through it faster and easier, meta the game to get through it faster and easier, cheat to get through the game faster and easier. Players may bypass the game itself to reach the end in most other games. Warframe makes it really easy to do so

Like any other game, Warframe offers options to actually play the game. But how do we convince players to take said options and value the game itself more and valueing the reward less (which may end up not even finding much use in the game if they're already commited to turning it off). The two work in tandem; the game and the reward, and the interpreted value of the two need to be balanced accordingly

The choice to not chase the reward isn't a thing that will easily come from within the player; it most often needs some help from the outside, since sometimes it only seems logical to chase the reward at the cost of whatever else (why would I not?).

A headscratching conundrum that personally I don't know how to solve.

edit: I’m not convinced it’s completely on DE, though they ultimately give us the game with which to have this situation in. At some point, we the community come into play in this situation; the desire to get the reward is most certainly going to be there all the time, but we can either amplify it [the desire], or help tone it down so that a player doesn’t feel completely compelled to chase the reward to their own detriment, and they’ll still look forward to the reward when they get it.

And right now, it feels like it’s being heavily amplified

I agree whole-heartedly, honestly.  When I was referring to rewards being a motivator, I meant in a BUSINESS sense more than anything.

If we're diving into the merits therein, I suppose we need to ask ourselves if another player's motivation is OUR "problem" to solve at all?  Perhaps, if the player finds joy in skipping the game, that's their choice to make and not a matter which we ought to involve ourselves in.   

When it becomes a concern of mine, however, is when they "skip the game", but then complain there "was no game" in the first place..  "it was bad", etc.  THAT'S an issue, because they go around talking about their self-imposed "bad" experience and THAT can influence the decision of potential new players to either give Warframe a shot or pass it up... which can potentially hurt growth.

And I WANT to see this game GROW.

I don't think the "rewards" in WF are "bad" right now... I think they're maybe just a tad too "accessible" too soon.  DE maybe just needs to reassess how many hours in, or at what stage in a players' journey they ought to encounter some things.

It's good not to set rewards "at" that line, because you also want to make things accessible a bit sooner to those willing to dive in a bit over their heads (if they prefer that thrill), but at the same time, you don't want others tripping in accidentally to the deep end of things and drowning in content they were not ready for.

Influencers, and indeed the community at large, have a huge hand in the direction new players traverse the game, as well... and I believe some take the power of that responsibility far too lightly, and toss out half-hearted, half-baked opinions into the ether of the interwebs, not caring or not paying attention to what damage that can do (because, it's not "their game", after all!  Right?  /s) 

But yes, a conundrum, to be sure.  I do not envy the devs in this case.

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 hours ago, L3512 said:

 

When railjack first can out it combined 2% drop chance at the end of missions with randomized stat and huge resource costs for some key components. Railjack was a combination of bad design and a massive list of bugs of which some mission breaking ones like the grineer door BS lasted until very recently.

In the face of this players did either three things.

1. Gave up playing it

2. became very good at playing it

3. complained (this is a joke, everyone complained there was only 2 choices.)

So while I do not think it's acceptable and is not an excuse, you can understand how ugliness arose if someone held up a 2 minutes GP run. 

DE treated their players like crap when Railjack came out and elements in the community echoed it.

 

All this is in contrast to most of what railjack is today, a game mode where you can get a multitude of resources and it is pretty good value as time spent. Increasing the rewards and nerfing enemies (multiple times) has made the game mode pretty casual friendly but still rewarding skilled play (as opposed to something like survival).

Long way of saying people want rewards, DE tries to balance it and sometimes it works and other times it needs work. As for valuing the gameplay itself that's an up to individual players. I personally never do conservation because I find it boring, no rewards would make it fun for me but a decent reward might see me doing it (nightwave challenge is not enough.) but maybe there are people out there that like it.  

Mm. I remember when Railjack came out.

 🤔  Pretty sure I’m the only one. (kidding)

I detest predatory action taken to force players to play a game. I remember Destiny 2’s “Eriana’s Vow” catalyst. I want to get gyro-whatevers so that I can progress through Vox Solaris, and I’m perpetually reminded of a topic I read on the forums about someone who spent an ungodly amount of time trying to get the amount required for a thing they wanted (compelling me to make my own topic about a year ago where I outlined my own ideas for a mercy/pity system, not for my sake, but for that poor bastard’s, as I wasn’t even close to considering what it’d be like to try and get my own at the time of writing the topic).

There’s a difficult line to define though; is it predatory, or is it something that makes me feel like I earned it?

Regardless of what the answer is, there’s also the question of “Where did the initial expected acquisition rate come from?”. And can we change it by our actions?

I dunno. We’re up against forces mostly outside of our control, market forces and business planning. Maybe DE is ridiculously predatory and we’re just falling for it. But I can’t help but wonder what a world where we didn’t grind hard and fast might look like, and if we can change future decisions

[L3512]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Mm. I remember when Railjack came out.

 🤔  Pretty sure I’m the only one.

Not sure what you mean by that.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I want to get gyro-whatevers so that I can progress through Vox Solaris, and I’m perpetually reminded of a topic I read on the forums about someone who spent an ungodly amount of time trying to get the amount required for a thing they wanted (compelling me to make my own topic about a year ago where I outlined my own ideas for a mercy/pity system, not for my sake, but for that poor bastard’s, as I wasn’t even close to considering what it’d be like to try and get my own at the time of writing the topic).

Personally I'd say Vox Solaris is the worst open world faction and it probably do with some changes.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Regardless of what the answer is, there’s also the question of “Where did the initial expected acquisition rate come from?”. And can we change it by our actions

Re. Railjack, I think DE tried to pad out the game mode with low drop rates and slow intrinsic earning, people weren't meant to get to the veil in the first day. The fact there was one mission type didn't help. 

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I dunno. We’re up against forces mostly outside of our control, market forces and business planning. Maybe DE is ridiculously predatory and we’re just falling for it. But I can’t help but wonder what a world where we didn’t grind hard and fast might look like, and if we can change future decisions

Honestly the only thing that comes to mind and is entirely opt in is rivens. The whole multi-rng high cost rerolling thing could maybe be called predatory but I would not say so myself.

[(NSW)Greybones]

39 minutes ago, L3512 said:

Not sure what you mean by that.

Ah sorry, was a joke :P

I’ll edit the post for clarity

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, L3512 said:

Personally I'd say Vox Solaris is the worst open world faction and it probably do with some changes.

+1 to that.

Toroid farming was a pain before you could just do a few runs of Exploiter Orb and have weeks worth of standing, and even now Gyromags and Atmo Systems are strictly RNG locked before rank 3, which is where they can be purchased for standing, essentially locking the key behind the door in a sense.

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

But I'm NOT saying it's the "only" way...  And to be fair, these forums are LITTERED with discussion/complaints about "rewards" being the motivating factor in much of Warframe.  What makes Conclave any different?

The key difference is that for most content in Warframe, the extrinsic rewards are necessary to make us keep playing the new content after we try it. In Conclave, the extrinsic rewards are necessary to make us try Conclave... and even then, that's not enough for most people to touch the thing.

4 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

I, for one, play modes like Conclave for the FUN...and the CHALLENGE... but it'd be cool to get some fun cosmetics out of it, too.  Or mods to use IN the mode...  Standing, imo, just gains MUCH slower in Conclave than any other faction in-game... which can make progress feel painfully slow.

Then by this same token, it should not matter to you whether those rewards are exclusive to Conclave or not. Advocating to exclude those rewards from anyone who doesn't play Conclave does not benefit you or anyone else, hence why that sort of request is malicious even if that is not your intention.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The key difference is that for most content in Warframe, the extrinsic rewards are necessary to make us keep playing the new content after we try it. In Conclave, the extrinsic rewards are necessary to make us try Conclave... and even then, that's not enough for most people to touch the thing.

According to what metrics is that the case?  None.  Your opinion is not "fact".  

I, for one, would play plenty more Conclave IF there were matches to be had.  That's all, honestly.  The rewards are SECONDARY.

21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Then by this same token, it should not matter to you whether those rewards are exclusive to Conclave or not. Advocating to exclude those rewards from anyone who doesn't play Conclave does not benefit you or anyone else, hence why that sort of request is malicious even if that is not your intention.

No, rewards exclusive to a specific mode, PARTICULARLY when THE MAJORITY of those rewards are mods that ONLY WORK in that mode, make perfect sense and that's how it works in MOST OF WARFRAME!

Do you get Amp parts from Simaris?  How about Hildryn parts from Cetus?  Do you get RailJack parts from running Lith on Earth?  Rivens in ESO?  

My friend, there are a TON of syndicate or mode-only rewards for standing in their own space.  That's not unique to Conclave.

And it is in no way "malicious" to point it out.  I wasn't lookin' to pick a fight, but my dude, you're really trying to, it seems.  

Conclave has it's own rewards for those that play it.  If you want more Conclave rewards, play more Conclave.  It's pretty simple.  If you don't want to play Conclave, why do you feel you should have access to Conclave REWARDS?  ESPECIALLY, again, when the MAJORITY of those rewards are MODS THAT ONLY WORK IN CONCLAVE!

Just say it... You want free skins and don't wanna do the work to get 'em.  For Ordis' sake, at least be honest with yourself if you won't be honest with anyone else here.  You're transparent as can be!

I'm GARBAGE at Conclave, still first rank even!  But I wouldn't ask for freebies and hand-outs from the Conclave shop.  If I want them, then that's my challenge to overcome...  Time to learn to fight better, and rise to the occasion.

Given how much these forums whine about "wanting a challenge", should be people lining up to get into a match, yeah?  

All ya gotta do is TRY... you even get standing for LOSING a match!  But nope, you want it all made "easier".  What, do you wanna be able to trade in your Red Veil tokens for a Conclave skin?  THAT makes sense to you, but actually playing the damned mode doesn't?  Make a better argument or stop trolling...

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2021-08-02 at 8:38 AM, (PSN)theelix said:

TL;DR

Shooting and hitting stuff is great.

Explanations? Progression? Story?

Edit: I find it funny that people are complaining about the lack of description, and that "youtuber bad, youtuber know not what they talk about"

Watch the video on 1.5x speed in 5 minutes you hear the entire theme of what people have been saying about the game everywhere. New player experience is garbage. The tutorial quest looks fantastic, but explains nothing.

This video won't be as impactful as Jim Sterling. In-fact, I doubt DE will even acknowledge that it exists at all. Their ideology is that the tutorial system doesn't change new player retention, so they hardly care more than sprucing it up every few years when they do graphical updates or add new pretty tilesets to be annoying by Vor in. They don't care as long as it looks pretty for the people who aren't going to be spending more than a dozen hours in the game.

Dropping new players in after Vors prize with 0 explaining of what to do next as well as opening the mod station is enough to make any one quit.

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

According to what metrics is that the case?  None.  Your opinion is not "fact".  

I, for one, would play plenty more Conclave IF there were matches to be had.  That's all, honestly.  The rewards are SECONDARY.

😂😂😂

Seriously though, well done on proving yourself wrong. The fact that Conclave is a ghost town is evidence enough that I am not speaking purely from opinion. Conclave is an unpopular mode, and the sooner we stop being delusional about this, the better.

5 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

No, rewards exclusive to a specific mode, PARTICULARLY when THE MAJORITY of those rewards are mods that ONLY WORK in that mode, make perfect sense and that's how it works in MOST OF WARFRAME!

Textual screaming is not going to make you sound any more convincing. As it stands, you are the one speaking purely from opinion here, and I fail to see what it is about cosmetics that would make them only work in Conclave. Those are the rewards players want, not Conclave-exclusive mods, though easier access to them would certainly lessen one of the barriers to entry.

5 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Just say it... You want free skins and don't wanna do the work to get 'em.

This is literally the argument I am calling out. I'm playing a video game, not working a job. What you are asking is for people to suffer as you have in order to access certain items, and are visibly incensed by the very idea that people may access those items without having gone through the necessary toil. It would, once again, not hurt you one whit if others were to access those cosmetics more easily (and worth noting that doing so purely through Universal Medallions would be a lot of work in and of itself), but the very thought of it makes you green with envy, so you complain against it. You are presently arguing purely to limit other players at no benefit to yourself, and so for transparently selfish and spiteful reasons.

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2021-08-10 at 9:14 AM, PublikDomain said:

Void Mode breaks a lot of the game's enemy damage mechanics and it always has. What are they gonna do? You're invincible, for free, for as long as you like.

Not as long as you like, considering you still have finite energy reserve

On 2021-08-10 at 9:14 AM, PublikDomain said:

It'd still be useful for hacking or reviving or moving around, but it wouldn't let you straight up ignore the AoE damage mechanics that make up boss fights and other similar encounters.

Seeing how you technically "hide" in the void during void mode, evading AoE damage is kind of alright to me, and you've worked your way to get that so what's the reason I can't use it? Or we can ask DE to disable interaction during void mode as "challenge" so you can't cheese revive your teammates and companions like limbo when in the rift

On 2021-08-10 at 9:14 AM, PublikDomain said:

People have been begging for a challenge, or just something to do

And it's always dismissed with so many excuses

- Slightly thicker health : bullet sponge
- Able to suppress you with knockdown and such : not fun
- Able to put pressure through damage : broken

I can't remember everything but any kind of pressure put onto the player is dismissed as "not a challenge". Also what is "something to do"? Because as far as I know, it ends up being something to chase/grind again once you "have everything", as if playing around without a direction is something impossible to do. I find warframe to be the game to go where I can just walk around killing things without any pressure to chase something

On 2021-08-10 at 9:14 AM, PublikDomain said:

Lech Kril's mechanics are kind of terrible.

It's all about baiting the AI, we're human players, we can think outside of algorithms unlike AI that is set to do something on certain condition and we're this advanced from trial and error so I can tell that medium range is where the AI will do the ice slam attack and getting stuck for a few seconds, giving you time window to shoot the backpack from that

On 2021-08-10 at 9:14 AM, PublikDomain said:

So I'm not OK in the slightest with the game's mechanics allowing players to make content boring and uninteractive. We're all here to play a game and be entertained, and if the game's over in seconds and you don't even get to play... why?

And I'm here to enjoy the ability to one shot things and ending the fight in seconds after putting my time improving my gears and powers. You can tone down your own power if you want to having this "interactive" fight, no need to force it down on everyone

On 2021-08-10 at 10:06 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

Why must we even be able to reach that much power to begin with. Even power fantasies have enemies that pose threats, but the whole experience becomes dull when we get there knowing we will win.

And what kind of threats power fantasies have, if not massive health to drain, attacks to make you retreat, field control with negative effects, etc?

On 2021-08-10 at 10:06 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

What's wrong with that? Overcoming a challenge that's stacked against us is really satisfying, a much better reward -imo- than getting 5K credits. Based on your definition, i guess you're OK with the devs stacking RNG against us in order to challenge our patience just because they know that people like you would start throwing tantrums if they ever add mildly challenging content.

If DE every add mildly challenging content, I don't mind it one bit and RNG is hardly a challenge, I can always run it again today or play again tomorrow. RNG is here because of those people you say jumping to another game once they have everything, that's what makes RNG here, to make players stay longer. Overcoming a challenge? I rather have super tight execution than stacking the odds for challenge, that's way overdone in other games

On 2021-08-10 at 10:06 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

You should take a look at those drop tables, there's lot of useless junk labeled as ultra rare and legendary drops. I used the sorties table only as a way to show you thay warframe has sub 1% drop rates for some stuff too.

Useless junk, right? So it doesn't matter that much if you have it or not

On 2021-08-10 at 10:06 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

Wouldn't it be better for warframe to appeal to both type of players in order to gather a bigger audience? You might not believe it, but doing that isn't impossible.

Isn't impossible, how exactly?

On 2021-08-10 at 10:06 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

Huh, or you could stick to areas balanced to be below your power level so you can keep wrecking everything on sight without minding anything.

Why should I stick to areas below my level when I can shoot higher and wrecking everything? Warframe allows me wrecking everything on sight even on the highest level so why must I lose that?

On 2021-08-10 at 10:06 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

You could have the entire starmap for all i care, the thing is: Why should the entire game be nothing but a huge low level area? Not even SP is hard.

For you, we still have Tenno saying SP is hard like this

Just because you see SP isn't hard, doesn't mean the whole community see it that way, we still have players struggling against it, and how do you fight SP enemies if not stacking as much buff to yourself and debuffing enemies to the point of zero defense, especially solo? Keep in mind that not everyone is on the same level as you

On 2021-08-10 at 10:06 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

So, why should i nerf myself to get a challenge when that's the dev's task? They either add a challenge that's fit our curremt power ceiling, balance the game for it, or bear with the complaints of their game being too easy.

And what is our power ceiling when 6x3 tridolon on SP is done a year ago?

Spoiler

 

Even solo tridolon on SP is already done

Spoiler

 

so where is our power ceiling then? How do you make a challenge, with strength ranging from 300% strength chroma to 40% strength limbo to not being trivial to one side and impossible to another side?

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Not as long as you like, considering you still have finite energy reserve

Infinite energy is just a Void Dash away.

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how you technically "hide" in the void during void mode, evading AoE damage is kind of alright to me, and you've worked your way to get that so what's the reason I can't use it? Or we can ask DE to disable interaction during void mode as "challenge" so you can't cheese revive your teammates and companions like limbo when in the rift

Considering "working your way to get that" involves playing the main quest you're gonna play anyways, I don't really see why it - or any mechanic - should be able to totally disable a portion of the gameplay. Void Mode's complete invulnerability allows you to cheese your way through all sorts of damage-based content, boss fights in particular. It straight up removes the game's mechanics, and for what? To let you lazily alt-tab through parts of the game?

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And it's always dismissed with so many excuses

- Slightly thicker health : bullet sponge
- Able to suppress you with knockdown and such : not fun
- Able to put pressure through damage : broken

I can't remember everything but any kind of pressure put onto the player is dismissed as "not a challenge". Also what is "something to do"? Because as far as I know, it ends up being something to chase/grind again once you "have everything", as if playing around without a direction is something impossible to do. I find warframe to be the game to go where I can just walk around killing things without any pressure to chase something

Well yeah, duh, because health bars mean nothing when they can be deleted instantly so DE needs to make them so chunky cheesy that the top tiers of power can't instagib them. But not all players elect for full power, so those players end up with a bullet sponge. People on top don't get a challenge and complain, people on the bottom can't play and complain. Who would have guessed that DE doing a bad job at balancing the game leads to complaints about balance? Crazy. And enemy damage output is likewise the way it is only because DE has to make the same damage hitting your Banshee also kill an Iron Skin Rhino. And hitting the Rhino is impossible without turning the Banshee into paste. These things get dismissed as "not a challenge" because it's impossible for DE to line them up with all the random players and the random power levels present in a party at the same time, so it's either not even a challenge and gets trivialized or it's insurmountable. There's no possibility for anything else.

And while I agree that being able to suppress the player with knockdowns isn't fun, adding proper telegraphs and skillful counters (like a timed spacebar press letting you get up faster after being knocked down) could turn that annoyance into a piece of real gameplay. Shockwave MOAs remain an excellent example of a well-telegraphed enemy CC. Early-game Warframe also provides a really good example of well-balanced gameplay that provides a sufficient challenge. (Edit: With the exception of melee, which remains overpowered compared to guns).

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

It's all about baiting the AI, we're human players, we can think outside of algorithms unlike AI that is set to do something on certain condition and we're this advanced from trial and error so I can tell that medium range is where the AI will do the ice slam attack and getting stuck for a few seconds, giving you time window to shoot the backpack from that

My point was more that this mechanic isn't telegraphed at all. The backpack has hitbox issues and the thing that telegraphs that something has changed isn't actually the thing you need to shoot. A larger hitbox and a different effect is probably all he needs, though if the game's damage mechanics were actually balanced he wouldn't need his invincibility in the first place. That and, like all of the early-game content, dialogue from characters helping point out mechanics. Lech Kril is like boss number three, and while I know how to fight him because I've been playing the game for 8 years, a player that isn't glued to the wikia or being coached or carried isn't gonna have a clue.

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And I'm here to enjoy the ability to one shot things and ending the fight in seconds after putting my time improving my gears and powers. You can tone down your own power if you want to having this "interactive" fight, no need to force it down on everyone

There's no need to force the boring gameplay you like on everyone either. Instead of the game being permanently locked onto easy mode and only easy mode, if DE gave half a damn about proper balance then I and others like me that want more could actually have the challenge we've been looking for - and you and I could both be served at the same time, instead of just you.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

Eh, I don't know. Both terms are a bit too loose in my opinion, anyway.

IIRC, "Content island" has been thrown around for both Railjack and Liches in their earlier incarnations and also the "open worlds". I'd say for some it means a new area with yet another set of resources to gather (open worlds, but not only), for others that it isn't the regular tile-based hallway gameplay (open worlds), then we have modifiers & separate matchmaking (Liches), and for yet others it's when something is rather loosely connected to the regular gameplay loop ("original" Railjack).

Especially the last one (Railjack) I wouldn't call "parasitic", as it's not just grafted on and couldn't exist by itself. It was very much its own game -- aside from the separate objectives where you're boots-on-the-ground for a short while). At least that's how I undestood the term parasitic: Additional systems that are not well integrated but also could not stand on their own.

Side activities that follow their own rules aren't really that, but I guess I wouldn't argue with them being called a "content island", although again, imho that's more of a community buzzword.

 

And in the meantime the devs have worked on integrating both Railjack and Liches better into the rest of the game, so are they still parasitic now? Maybe a bit? Where should one draw the line?

I think the concept of a standalone piece of content that doesn't tie in with or evolve the core gameplay is pretty much the same as Hayes' Parasitic Design.

Quote

These are ones that leech from the core mechanics and don't enhance them. They take from the game without giving anything specifically back.

His example of Runescape's Dungeoneering was because it was a new system added to the game with its own progression that didn't tie in with any other mechanics. It sounded like this was basically a whole new game, just tacked on without integrating into anything else. Side activities that don't tie in with anything else are pretty much exactly that.

So an example in Warframe might be K-Drives when they were released. They were a new movement system that didn't work with existing movement systems or provide anything useful, but required a lot of development time to create. All the art an animations and audio and engineering that went into K-Drives wasn't nothing, and that development time leeched from the rest of the game. DE could have worked on something like the base capture mechanic instead, which is itself another piece of parasitic design. (Edit: though it's so woefully underdeveloped that it basically doesn't even exist...)

Since then DE's moved a little towards integrating them, like by adding the ability to use your secondaries on them. But they're still not very well-integrated and still don't serve a purpose. Full integration might look like allowing K-Drives in regular missions for everyone, like how Archwings are usable in open worlds. That'd give them a niche and a reason to be a part of the game: quick traversal through large procedural tiles. That and adding the ability to use primaries, fixing up general bugs and handling issues, and maybe adding larger tiles to the game where they could be more useful, like how in Destiny some Strikes are used to show off Sparrows.

Railjacks were also pretty parasitic at launch. They had a new modding system, new weapon paradigm, new damage systems, and took place entirely off the starchart. Nothing you did in Railjack, except for the Archwing passives, affected regular gameplay. They've done some work integrating it better, but it's still not quite there. It's still an optional mode that doesn't affect anything else you do in the rest of the game. They could be improved by standardizing more mechanics like how they reverted Avionics and Dirac to be normal mods and Endo. Integrating them with Liches was a good idea, so more of that. Maybe they could integrate Railjacks into normal tileset gameplay, like this clip from my new playthrough:

Did you know they did this? They'll offload flying troops and track you as you walk back and forth. What if your Railjack could fly in like that and be fire support during some missions or in the open world? What if your Railjack could swoop down and blow up enemy Crewships? What if you could transition from Railjack to regular gameplay more smoothly like DE originally showed?

I think like with a lot of things, something being parasitic isn't a yes or no thing. It's a gradient, with regular gameplay on one side and a standalone piece of content on the other. Something can be a little parasitic, nor not parasitic at all, or really parasitic. Better integration with the game so you don't even notice the seam is certainly an ideal to strive for.

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

I think the concept of a standalone piece of content that doesn't tie in with or evolve the core gameplay is pretty much the same as Hayes' Parasitic Design.

His example of Runescape's Dungeoneering was because it was a new system added to the game with its own progression that didn't tie in with any other mechanics. It sounded like this was basically a whole new game, just tacked on without integrating into anything else. Side activities that don't tie in with anything else are pretty much exactly that.

So an example in Warframe might be K-Drives when they were released. They were a new movement system that didn't work with existing movement systems or provide anything useful, but required a lot of development time to create. All the art an animations and audio and engineering that went into K-Drives wasn't nothing, and that development time leeched from the rest of the game. DE could have worked on something like the base capture mechanic instead, which is itself another piece of parasitic design. (Edit: though it's so woefully underdeveloped that it basically doesn't even exist...)

Since then DE's moved a little towards integrating them, like by adding the ability to use your secondaries on them. But they're still not very well-integrated and still don't serve a purpose. Full integration might look like allowing K-Drives in regular missions for everyone, like how Archwings are usable in open worlds. That'd give them a niche and a reason to be a part of the game: quick traversal through large procedural tiles. That and adding the ability to use primaries, fixing up general bugs and handling issues, and maybe adding larger tiles to the game where they could be more useful, like how in Destiny some Strikes are used to show off Sparrows.

Railjacks were also pretty parasitic at launch. They had a new modding system, new weapon paradigm, new damage systems, and took place entirely off the starchart. Nothing you did in Railjack, except for the Archwing passives, affected regular gameplay. They've done some work integrating it better, but it's still not quite there. It's still an optional mode that doesn't affect anything else you do in the rest of the game. They could be improved by standardizing more mechanics like how they reverted Avionics and Dirac to be normal mods and Endo. Integrating them with Liches was a good idea, so more of that.

I actually had to watch it again and I feel he's contradicting himself in a way there. Well, maybe not contradicting, but some statements are a bit at odds with each other. Although I guess it's hard to make such a generalised statement and apply it to all types of games with very different rules, systems and mechanics.

So for Warframe. Is it parasitic when it...:

• is not integrated into the core gameplay loop? (i.e. Warframes in randomised "hallways")
• not using Warframes? Archwing technically doesn't, for example.
• uses completely new resources to gather? (and spend nowhere else?)
• not in the same matchmaking as the rest of the star chart? (required when there are modifiers or certain modes that just don't fit)
• does not offer Warframe upgrades or other "meaningful rewards"? (new mods/weapons/Warframes/...)
• requires standing to be gained with yet another faction? (although we know the alternative is simply RNG)

I think most if not all of these were made out to be "content islands" of some sort, even if some of the other checkboxes were actually ticked.

 

Now the best quotes I could find in the video:

"With parasitic design the system often exists independently of other systems yet requires support from other systems to survive." ... "it leeches from the core mechanics of a game and yet doesn't give anything back to them."

So with your K-Drive example: I don't think it leeches from the core mechanics yet doesn't give anything back to them. It's a side activity with its own rules (if used for transport and stunts/races). Although at some point he also talks about things that could be pulled out and nothing would change. Well, that's all side activities, then. But for example, also Dojos and Relays, those aren't needed for the core gameplay, either.

In my opinion, it only becomes more clear with that Runescape example:

"... shouldn't have been a skill but a minigame."  (so minigames aren't parasitic?)
"skills in runescape all interact with each other. minigames don't need to, they can exist on their own merit."
"... now, however, it's been updated and become much less parasitic. ... but it has been woven into the main game design over time. it has gained its synergy slowly"

 

So, specifically, things that are propped onto the core gameplay but then never properly worked into it but also it has to be things that cannot stand on their own. Now Railjack initially was not very well integrated -- still isn't in some respects -- but it could stand on its own. Then again, I wouldn't argue with someone who'd call it a "content island".

So I don't think these two terms should be conflated like that. Similarily, I wouldn't call something parasitic because it cost time to develop. If a new and separated system like Railjack actually fits into the game as a whole is then of course a different question.

 

If K-Drives were originally envisioned as a combat platform and given "their own Warframe" immediately, I'd be more inclined to agree here. But as I insinuated in my previous post: it's hard to say where exactly one should draw the line and call something parasitic.

 

 

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Maybe they could integrate Railjacks into normal tileset gameplay, like this clip from my new playthrough:

Did you know they did this? They'll offload flying troops and track you as you walk back and forth. What if your Railjack could fly in like that and be fire support during some missions or in the open world? What if your Railjack could swoop down and blow up enemy Crewships? What if you could transition from Railjack to regular gameplay more smoothly like DE originally showed?

Yes, I think that kind of thing was part of the vision, but I guess there are some fundamental things in how the game and the engine work that stand in the way.

As the myriads of bugs have shown us *ahem*, Railjack is several individual compartments where you get teleported from one place to the next depending on whether you're on the RJ, in Archwing, or in one of the objectives. And the outside-RJ-part is big to the point I think they had even trouble with fundamental engine limitations, and I believe it's not the Railjack that moves it's the world around it (I think Steve showed that once?).

Also, that we have to group together to start Corpus ship missions instead of going back and forth at will is yet another indicator for that.

 

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

I think like with a lot of things, something being parasitic isn't a yes or no thing. It's a gradient, with regular gameplay on one side and a standalone piece of content on the other. Something can be a little parasitic, nor not parasitic at all, or really parasitic. Better integration with the game so you don't even notice the seam is certainly an ideal to strive for.

Agreed, but I also think it's not very clearly defined what counts and what doesn't.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2021-08-11 at 9:58 PM, PublikDomain said:

If someone points out flaws in the game then I think it's much more important to talk about the flaws being pointed out than to talk about the guy making the video in the first place. Maybe Warframe wouldn't be the backdrop if it didn't have so many glaring problems? Especially in the third video, Warframe is pretty much Parasitic Design: The Game.

I have no issue with people speaking their opinions or protesting what they SEE as "flaws".  That's, of course, entirely within their rights to do so.

The issue is in stating opinions as certain "facts", when they're subjective, not objective.  

Case in point, the Youtuber in question, though he seems an intelligent fellow, has admittedly VERY LITTLE experience with Warframe at ALL.  This means, as a witness to these so-called "issues", he's forming his assertions/opinions almost entirely off of hearsay from others, and not through personal experience.

You can't just read reviews on a pizza place and insist to me that it MUST be garbage, objectively, without ever going and trying or even looking at it for yourself.  That's not how facts work.

You could, of course, err on the side of caution and ASSUME those reviews are true (and not just the phenomenon of angry peeps being the loud minority), and avoid the place altogether...that's FINE...  but to insist to OTHERS that you KNOW the place is bad, when in fact you're just guessing based off hearsay, is dishonest at best.

And to be clear, I enjoy that guy's videos.  Watched all of the ones pertaining to Warframe (and a few others)... but I cannot agree with his views on a subject he has no or little experience in.

I don't let people who have never stepped foot in a medical school lecture me on my medicines...  and I don't let a guy who admittedly only has several hours into Warframe tell me what the full game and devs "are" and "are not".   

Anyways, by your own logic, I'm just "pointing out the flaws" in his video... which you defend, apparently, my right to do, so... ?

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

😂😂😂

Seriously though, well done on proving yourself wrong. The fact that Conclave is a ghost town is evidence enough that I am not speaking purely from opinion. Conclave is an unpopular mode, and the sooner we stop being delusional about this, the better.

Textual screaming is not going to make you sound any more convincing. As it stands, you are the one speaking purely from opinion here, and I fail to see what it is about cosmetics that would make them only work in Conclave. Those are the rewards players want, not Conclave-exclusive mods, though easier access to them would certainly lessen one of the barriers to entry.

This is literally the argument I am calling out. I'm playing a video game, not working a job. What you are asking is for people to suffer as you have in order to access certain items, and are visibly incensed by the very idea that people may access those items without having gone through the necessary toil. It would, once again, not hurt you one whit if others were to access those cosmetics more easily (and worth noting that doing so purely through Universal Medallions would be a lot of work in and of itself), but the very thought of it makes you green with envy, so you complain against it. You are presently arguing purely to limit other players at no benefit to yourself, and so for transparently selfish and spiteful reasons.

1. No one has yet claimed that Conclave isn't "unpopular".  I don't know why you're making this argument, or insisting anyone else was, either.  It's a strawman you're creating, not a real thing.   Regardless of its current presumed popularity, that doesn't take away from the fact that the concept of Conclave can offer things to the game.

2. I'm not "screaming". I  use CAPS to EMPHASIZE words/statements. If I were "screaming", there'd be a hell of a lot more exclamation points.  Don't flatter yourself.... ya ain't worth that kinda stress.

3. I actually HAVEN'T "suffered" as you keep insisting. I actually SAID that I've yet to even move up from the BASE rank with Conclave. I don't have ANY of the Conclave fashions.  And yet, even if it'd make it easier for me to get them, I wouldn't want them to bypass the grind... BECAUSE in competition, which is what Conclave IS, the "grind" is the POINT.  

Imagine just buying a black belt instead of earning it at a dojo, then insisting that you vs someone who earned it are "the same".  That's ridiculous. 

The fact that you can't see the value or merit in earning a small handful of cosmetics from actually getting better at fighting is a YOU problem, and not something I, nor the devs, can fix for you.  Just because it's a game doesn't mean you're entitled to everything without effort or skill.

4 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

There are matches to be had. But you have to know when and where.

The devs haven't fixed some rather obnoxious bugs and exploits in over a year, so people had to come up with ways to work with/around that. Some don't care and abuse it all, others have simply stopped or only rarely play in public matches. Together with how the matchmaking system here works, that can make it hard for others to just hop into a match.

Also, I can't really talk about the situation on consoles, of course.

 

By the way, don't spend too much time on that Teridax guy, unless you want to argue in circles. Been there already several times. Last time I predicted he would start dissecting my posts and that's exactly what happened. Said I got "clapped" as if this were some kind of contest, and went on even after being told that I'm not interested in talking to him. 😅

 

Fair points, and solid advice. Thank you. I'll bear it in mind going forward. :)  

[PublikDomain]

42 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

So for Warframe. Is it parasitic when it...:

• is not integrated into the core gameplay loop? (i.e. Warframes in randomised "hallways")
• not using Warframes? Archwing technically doesn't, for example.
• uses completely new resources to gather? (and spend nowhere else?)
• not in the same matchmaking as the rest of the star chart? (required when there are modifiers or certain modes that just don't fit)
• does not offer Warframe upgrades or other "meaningful rewards"? (new mods/weapons/Warframes/...)
• requires standing to be gained with yet another faction? (although we know the alternative is simply RNG)

I think most if not all of these were made out to be "content islands" of some sort, even if some of the other checkboxes were actually ticked.

I think it has less to do with the Warframes themselves, and more to do with the core loop of running, gunning, and being a space ninja. Stuff like resources or upgrades or standing aren't necessarily parasitic, but are probably just traits parasitic content tends to have.

The distinction with "minigame" is a bit odd to me and idk how he'd define it. I think maybe minigames would be a small, intentionally separate piece of content. Like Shawzins, Frame Fighter, Wyrmius, etc. Parasitic content would be something intended to be a major part of gameplay but that doesn't actually integrate or build upon existing gameplay.

But I'm not Hayes so idk. 🤷‍♀️

He seems to lurk, so maybe he'll answer us in another video lol.

36 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Yes, I think that kind of thing was part of the vision, but I guess there are some fundamental things in how the game and the engine work that stand in the way.

As the myriads of bugs have shown us *ahem*, Railjack is several individual compartments where you get teleported from one place to the next depending on whether you're on the RJ, in Archwing, or in one of the objectives. And the outside-RJ-part is big to the point I think they had even trouble with fundamental engine limitations, and I believe it's not the Railjack that moves it's the world around it (I think Steve showed that once?).

Also, that we have to group together to start Corpus ship missions instead of going back and forth at will is yet another indicator for that.

From what I understand, the scale was an issue at one point but Steve talked with another developer and found a better way to do it. I wish I had a link for it, it was a Steve stream I think. Google "floating point precision", the short of it is that working with big numbers produces imprecision at extreme distances, which can show up as jitters as the position of the player gets less and less well-defined. Eventually the difference is great enough that the camera starts rendering the player a few pixels out of place which becomes very noticeable. But if you change the order of operations the jitters go away, which is what Steve learned from whoever it was.

The other issue is that the engine just can't handle enough enemies to keep players busy, so they can't split the party and also run full missions like Exterminate. But I think that's two issues: 1) the game is so powercreeped that even the 60-whatever enemies the game can support aren't enough anymore - even in Railjack where the enemies are beefier, and 2) the design issues only really exist when DE is trying to force full missions. Grineer Railjack shows pretty well that small instances are fine for Railjack, so do we really need a 1km long procedural ship to run through if it's just gonna be the same basic Exterminate you do from day 1? Why not smaller POIs and tailored Railjack mission types? But doing that takes more time, and DE is busy and prefers taking the easy way out where possible.

47 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You can't just read reviews on a pizza place and insist to me that it MUST be garbage, objectively, without ever going and trying or even looking at it for yourself.  That's not how facts work.

No, but if I've been eating at that pizza place for years and I read a bad review about it then I can nod along and agree that yeah, it's got some problems. Every single one of us can make a new account and experience the game from day 1 and see that the issues presented in the video are real. He's not the first person to have brought them up, nor will he be the last, because these are all things people have known about for years.

And I am trying and looking at this myself, I've got a new account and I've recorded every piece of gameplay I've done so far. I'm up to Jupiter. It's been 6-7 hours total. You're able to do this, too. Plugging your ears and pretending issues don't exist just because an outsider brought them up is not exactly being very objective, is it?

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

1. No one has yet claimed that Conclave isn't "unpopular".  I don't know why you're making this argument, or insisting anyone else was, either.  It's a strawman you're creating, not a real thing.   Regardless of its current presumed popularity, that doesn't take away from the fact that the concept of Conclave can offer things to the game.

You accused me of arguing purely from subjective opinion when I mentioned that Conclave was so unpopular that people need the promise of extrinsic incentives just to give it a try. Given that, by your own admission, Conclave is so unpopular that it's difficult to even just find a match there, I fail to see what the strawman here is. By contrast, you are the one attacking an argument I never made: not once did I claim that Conclave cannot "offer things to the game", and in fact I stated previously on here that I would support the devs giving the mode some much-needed attention, and working with the Conclave community to make it better. I just don't think the Universal Medallion debacle was conducive to that.

2 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

2. I'm not "screaming". I  use CAPS to EMPHASIZE words/statements. If I were "screaming", there'd be a hell of a lot more exclamation points.  Don't flatter yourself.... ya ain't worth that kinda stress.

Putting aside how incredibly silly it is to try to argue at such a petty level... talking in caps is textual screaming, my dude. If you want to emphasize something without sounding shrill and agitated, perhaps try using italics or even bold font, both of which were designed to make text stand out in a more legible (and civil) way. If you're feeling spicy, you can even underscore your text, or all three at once. By contrast, "I'm NoT sCrEaMiNg" is a tad less convincing.

2 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

3. I actually HAVEN'T "suffered" as you keep insisting. I actually SAID that I've yet to even move up from the BASE rank with Conclave. I don't have ANY of the Conclave fashions.  And yet, even if it'd make it easier for me to get them, I wouldn't want them to bypass the grind... BECAUSE in competition, which is what Conclave IS, the "grind" is the POINT.  

You keep talking about "work" in a video game to receive items that have nothing to do with the "work" involved. Putting aside the dubiousness of the above, your word on the matter is irrelevant, as it does not change the fact that you are asking for other people to go through gameplay they find unpleasant to access what are ultimately minor, if still desirable cosmetic rewards. This kind of mentality is spiteful.

2 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Imagine just buying a black belt instead of earning it at a dojo, then insisting that you vs someone who earned it are "the same".  That's ridiculous. 

This is a particularly inept analogy, given that the issue you bring up here comes from lying about one's credentials in an art that requires genuine commitment and formal technique to master. It does, however, appear to give some insight into your mentality, if you truly believe that Conclave is as respectable as an IRL martial art, and old weapon skins locked behind Conclave are the equivalent of a black belt for the mode. Newsflash: they're not. Conclave is just a failed game mode in Warframe, the skins are just a bunch of cosmetics, and the fact that you're making a mountain out of this molehill just speaks to the baseless elitism underscoring your posts on this topic. Y'all really need to start deriving your self-worth from something more stable.

 

[wellodk]

Hello there

I have about 800 hours on steam in warframe, and i have indeed really enjoyed my time. I often come back. 

But, the only reason i can do so, is because i forced myself to learn and read countless wikipages, so that now the learning curve is really easy.

This game is wiki-dependant, at this point it is really hard to do something about it, but the area where this affects the game the most, is for the new players.

The massive feature-creep in the game is horrible and overwelming for new players, and i really hope the Devs are to do something about it.

I have thought of a few fixes in the easier end, that would really improve the game if implemented. At least I believe so.

For refference, the opinion i am stating, isn't just coming from me, it's coming from all my friends who tried the game, most new players i meet ingame and not that long ago, a youtuber who have never played the game before adressed this in this video, titled "Worst MMO ever?".

 

First off, for a new player there really is a lack of direction. For people with a few 100's of hours there still is a big lack of direction. From what i've seen, most people getting hooked on the game, play anywhere from 400 to several thousands of hours, which is a quite good playtime, many games considered good don't even make it over 100 hours on most players steam profiles. It's just the startup that really takes it toll on how many people make it past the early fases. 

I'm suggesting quests should be introduced better to the player, after playing the startup main mission players really hit a wall. I know the devs have tried in the past to make this scenario less occurant, but it still clearly lacks improvement from a new players perspective. Guiding the player better towards the other missions in the game, and explaining the player in a better manner how to unlock more missions, and more importantly the main missions, would give alot more guidance to the player. By playing the storyline players will get more invested with the lore and story of the game, and will apreciate the gameplay even more. I cleared the entire starchart myself before i did any questing at all. I tried my hardest to catch up, and i did so in considerably few hours, but doing that also weakens the feel of the game. 

New players shouldn't feel the need to catch up and rush through the content. They should be introduced better to the storyline and quests, and maybe even completely new quests that will take them through other parts of the game like more advanced modding, building and fighting.

I would love for people to come with their own suggestions, alterate my own and critisize. My ultimate goal is only to make Warframe more enjoyable for new players. Keeping new players coming will only keep the game alive, and maybe even change it dramatically for the better.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

"I saw a video that told me what to say so let's follow along, everyone."

I have a friend that didn't like warframe...but guess what...He's been a sports fan his whole life.

He plays sports games and always has ever since I've known him.

We met up after a long time, and I was the sci fi nerd and he was the workout sports guy. It's ok if everyone doesn't like warframe. 

For warframe to be widely liked on a large scale, it would have to be a completely different game, because the masses aren't smart enough for actual good games like warframe.

People can't even figure out the easy rock-paper-scissor system that warframe has now, so warframe to be more accessible, you would have to dumb it down to the point of being the old 2013 warframe again. 

 

[wellodk]

Quote

"I saw a video that told me what to say so let's follow along, everyone."

I have a friend that didn't like warframe...but guess what...He's been a sports fan his whole life.

He plays sports games and always has ever since I've known him.

We met up after a long time, and I was the sci fi nerd and he was the workout sports guy. It's ok if everyone doesn't like warframe. 

For warframe to be widely liked on a large scale, it would have to be a completely different game, because the masses aren't smart enough for actual good games like warframe.

People can't even figure out the easy rock-paper-scissor system that warframe has now, so warframe to be more accessible, you would have to dumb it down to the point of being the old 2013 warframe again. 

Very constructive, thank you for this comment!

[DarkSkysz]

Nobody cares about 'new players'... they don't buy platinum... they don't play over 2 hours... they don't even login twice.

[Dauggie]

there are just few key things new players should know to play this game, but sadly even those are hard for some. as you said you had to learn yourself to create an interest to play further, i think this is something most players will relate to who just picked the game by themselves and not through some advice of friend who guided them. 

very basic things new players should know is - Where to go next from they are currently. --> just start completing planets, anything that's blinking you have to complete it once.

how to mod --> this is challenging and can't be learned even after watching hours of guides. first start with basic mods that clearly show what they do. like duration increase , strength increase, etc then try experimenting with difficult ones status-critical based ones. 

what frame / weapon to build --> anything that fancy you, don't worry about the item being useful or not, just build it so that you understand the process of farming frames, 

just ask --> the Region chat section is quite active, it will help you 80% of the time, just don't expect spoon feeding request like "help me complete this" as most are in that chat section to just chill. 

 

[Aldain]

8 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Well yeah, duh, because health bars mean nothing when they can be deleted instantly so DE needs to make them so chunky cheesy that the top tiers of power can't instagib them. But not all players elect for full power, so those players end up with a bullet sponge.

Like me using my Ambassador to hunt a Lich...biggest mistake of my life.

[wellodk]

Quote

Nobody cares about 'new players'... they don't buy platinum... they don't play over 2 hours... they don't even login twice.

Exactly what i am saying, if you didn't notice :).