Josh Strife Hayes and Warframe

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

Lack of empathy for assuming people knowing how to do a basic  google/youtube search?!  Sorry if assuming people just think to use common technology at their disposal to find answers is somehow "putting people down".

Putting aside the obvious and gross minimization of the issue at hand that already demonstrates the problem, you seem to assume that having to do extracurricular research just to understand what's going on in the video game they just picked up is normal. It is not. People can pick up a heap of other games (including free ones) and not have to go through that hassle to get started, which raises the question: why should they? Why is this hassle even necessary?

5 hours ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

No it's cause no has really brought a reason to care about this reviewer and you said a question equal attention seeking from some bizzare logic.

Failing to understand simple logic does not make it bizarre. As it stands, you flat-out admitted exactly what I stated: you asked a question to the general public feeling entitled to an answer, and when no-one in particular gave you the attention you sought, you chose to take it out on someone specific.

5 hours ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

Cause I don't want to waste my #*!%ing time watching what could be a extremely S#&$ video i got better things to watch on youtube, don't have alot free time between 2 jobs so i kinda want to not waste my time. 

I guess assuming "people knowing how to do a basic  google/youtube search" is assuming too much when it comes to certain people. I am amazed you fail to see the irony here.

5 hours ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

Think ill just flag the vid cause this discussion over some rando vid is getting ridiculous, one review isn't going to change the game overall. Warframe does need changes but why let some rando dude on youtube speak for you? 

I'm not, I'm taking his points and arguing them with my own examples, as have many others. Meanwhile, you have failed to put even an iota of effort into doing your own research, all while whining against prospective new players who ditch Warframe for its rough learning curve because, to you, watching a YouTube video isn't so hard, actually. The hypocrisy on display in your comments here is astounding.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I simply try to have more faith in the ability of human beings. We left the cave a long time ago, and 12 year olds are better with tech now than the 30 year olds.

Yes, and video game developers have had decades to perfect the art of the tutorial, and creating a smooth learning curve that is optimally designed to draw in new players, who aren't expected by any other game to delve into the wiki and online tutorials just to have an idea of what's going on. Why should Warframe be the exception?

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

What usually happens is people get excited to play the game, and try to move forward at such a rapid pace, they're ignoring any tutorials along the way. Any tutorial won't matter if it's gonna be ignored anyway. 

Funny, I don't recall this being a problem in other games to the same extent of Warframe. Tell me, which other games have you played where players similarly quit from supposedly rushing too hard and skipping the tutorials?

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I've seen maybe 2 or 3 people actually point out the flaw in players, while everyone else avoids it and pretends players don't make mistakes. 

Because blaming the players is as pointless as it is wrong-headed. You claim to have faith in humanity, yet you transparently take every opportunity to belittle everyone who doesn't think like you do. Even if one were to assume that the entirety of all players who gave Warframe a try and gave up were all lazy and stupid (and I have a hunch that they're neither), blaming the players achieves strictly nothing. You are not going to have the opportunity to knock on every ex-new player's door and tell them to put some more effort in, and excusing away all of Warframe's flaws by putting it on the backs of people who aren't here to argue back is not going to help the game or its developers. By contrast, making constructive criticism and pointing at where DE can improve their product does have a chance of helping, especially when it comes to a part of the game that could secure many more long-term players if improved.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You have players that can't even hover over an icon to see what resources are dropped....people complained there's no update info in game, even though it already was, then another update section was added on top of that.

People that don't even have the patience to play an online games or wait for crafting timers are just waiting for a bunch of tutorials to read? They aren't even reading what's currently in the game.

Case in point. These are not the words of someone who has faith in people.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

But I get it: even if one new player decides to stick with the game after a massive tutorial overhaul that once again postpones the duviri paradox, it's worth it to make the game grow? Sure. 

Who even cares that much about Duviri at this point? I'd love to see it be realized, but I also want DE to maximize their revenue in ways that benefit the community. Improving the new player experience is a win-win in this respect. For all the ignorant dismissal of Josh Strife Hayes made by people who didn't even watch the relevant videos, he goes out of his way to praise Warframe in many of its aspects, and one of them is the (recently reworked) opening level of the game. He spends a lot of video time waxing lyrical about how virtually every aspect of that bit of the new player experience was well-designed, and then goes on to point out that that level of quality could hook in more new players if it were extended to the entire new player experience. I for one believe him, and think it is a worthy endeavor to at least have DE try continuing the good work they've done there.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

4 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Funny, I don't recall this being a problem in other games to the same extent of Warframe. Tell me, which other games have you played where players similarly quit from supposedly rushing too hard and skipping the tutorials?

...funny, I don't recall REAL metrics showing this to be the overwhelming reason of any retention issues..  Issues which, btw, aren't even much more than anecdote at this point.

DE has the metrics, and they, themselves, have said that redoing the Tutorials doesn't help with retention.

There is no evidence the game is, or ever has been, "hemorrhaging players", either. Steam reflects only ONE method of accessing the game, and even that shows steady growth.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

7 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

By contrast, making constructive criticism and pointing at where DE can improve their product does have a chance of helping, especially when it comes to a part of the game that could secure many more long-term players if improved.

Constructive Criticism?  Where?  I have hardly seen a mention of any here on this thread.

Yelling at the devs that "this sucks, make it better" is about as effective and "constructive" as telling a player who is asking for help to "git gud".

[Teridax68]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

...funny, I don't recall REAL metrics showing this to be the overwhelming reason of any retention issues..  Issues which, btw, aren't even much more than anecdote at this point.

Did you somehow miss the part where the figures for how many players spend 2 hours or more in Warframe were shown?

8 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

DE has the metrics, and they, themselves, have said that redoing the Tutorials doesn't help with retention.

... which is why they reworked the game's first level to much fanfare and acknowledged that it was, in fact, something worth doing. Yeah, your unsupported argument there's looking real convincing.

8 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

There is no evidence the game is, or ever has been, "hemorrhaging players", either.

Please point to where I have claimed this or anything to this effect, much less said the exact thing you seem to be bringing up in quotation marks. Seems like you're intent on turning me into the poster child for all the enemies you've made on this thread.

8 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Steam reflects only ONE method of accessing the game, and even that shows steady growth.

1) Why should it be any different on any other method of access? Do you have any evidence supporting that player counts have varied at a meaningfully different rate on other platforms?

2) This is untrue, as player counts have been steadily declining since the Sisters of Parvos update, mirroring a curve of sharp rise, decline, then slower decline following most major updates. Overall, Warframe's player count experienced its highest stable player count in 2018, and hasn't quite recovered since.

13 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Constructive Criticism?  Where?  I have hardly seen a mention of any here on this thread.

I'd say this is more of a you problem than anyone else's, given that plenty of people such as myself, PublikDomain, and NocheLuz have in fact been giving just that on this thread. Meanwhile, you've been picking fights with people in your sad little crusade to pretend that everything's okay by trying to shut everyone else up.

13 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Yelling at the devs that "this sucks, make it better" is about as effective and "constructive" as telling a player who is asking for help to "git gud".

If you truly think this is all everyone else has been saying, then we're not simply dealing with a problem of hilariously bad faith here, but one of basic reading comprehension. Please, try a little harder.

[(PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk]

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

It's only a problem if one chooses to see it that way, IMO, it's simply a design choice.

DE has gone back and refined the NPE, they have decided they would like to present a different NPE.

Again, just what they chose to do with their resources.

None of this is a 'problem', it is simply what the creators chose to do, unless one chooses to see the world in such rigid terms.

I don't.

My windshield isn't cracked. It's just a design choice. 

The screen on my phone isn't broken. It's just a design choice. 

My car isn't missing a wheel. It's just a design choice. 

 

After all.....it's only a problem of you choose to see it that way 🙂

 

 

(Jesus Christ lol) 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

25 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Did you somehow miss the part where the figures for how many players spend 2 hours or more in Warframe were shown?

Nope. Saw it..  FOR STEAM ONLY.  Did you somehow miss the part where NOWHERE in the video did he show console or WF Launcher numbers?  Because he doesn't have them.

This has been explained soooo many times here on the forums:  Some players start on Steam and then use the launcher itself thereafter, thus showing no further playtime/trophies on Steam.  And vice versa.  

And console players' stats aren't even in this discussion.

Furthermore, there's the fact that it's a F2P game, and as such there is no barrier to entry preventing a player from downloading it who is NOT part of the targeted demographic for the game, not liking it, and quitting.  That's not always an issue on the devs so much as marketing.  The right player playing the game won't quit after 2h.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

28 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

which is why they reworked the game's first level to much fanfare and acknowledged that it was, in fact, something worth doing. Yeah, your unsupported argument there's looking real convincing.

"reworked".  Past tense.  

Meaning they DID hear the feedback and already went through that change... and then deemed it did nothing for retention. 

Regardless, this reply ignores everything further DE has stated on the topic, and ignores the fact that they're working on bigger things right now.  Y'all want an end to the story, but also want this, but also want weapon rebalances, etc etc etc ad infinitum. 

As I said, DE only has so many people with so many hours in a given day to do any number of things in development...  Just because what you want isn't finished this very moment does NOT mean they aren't working on it.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Please point to where I have claimed this or anything to this effect, much less said the exact thing you seem to be bringing up in quotation marks. Seems like you're intent on turning me into the poster child for all the enemies you've made on this thread

You keep implying that DE has an issue with the NPE which is costing them new player retention.  Thus, implying they are losing players...  

There's no evidence to support they are losing any meaningful number of players, and thus your concerns over this issue, and your assertion that you know "how to fix" a problem that doesn't exist, are moot.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

36 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is untrue, as player counts have been steadily declining since the Sisters of Parvos update, mirroring a curve of sharp rise, decline, then slower decline following most major updates. Overall, Warframe's player count experienced its highest stable player count in 2018, and hasn't quite recovered since.

The fact that MORE people jumped on during a promotional event/big media release does not show a decline in overall average.  You're misreading the spike as a "new average" that then "declined", which is not how averages work.

If I owned a pizzeria, and average... we'll say 100 customers a day...  Then I had a NEW item that I promoted (pretty heavily), on release you'd naturally see a bump in customers/orders, because people would want to try the new item.

Once they'd tried it, many would decide it isn't for them, or they'd spend their subsequent nights ordering from other places instead.. because like video games, people have OPTIONS in where they eat, too...  And I might pick up another batch of customers thereafter, bringing my averages up to 110 a day.  

The "spike" is not the "new normal".

PS:  The Steam charts alone, which again are not a direct correlation to other consoles, show steady growth since Warframe's inception:

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410#All

Nothing there indicates they're losing players.  It shows that hype from a new release died down, that's ALL.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

37 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I'd say this is more of a you problem than anyone else's, given that plenty of people such as myself, PublikDomain, and NocheLuz have in fact been giving just that on this thread. Meanwhile, you've been picking fights with people in your sad little crusade to pretend that everything's okay by trying to shut everyone else up.

Some people have, yeah... but the same can be said of you and your "sad little crusade to pretend that everything's terrible". 

Again, feedback belongs in FEEDBACK.  Here, on General Discussion, nothing is going to come of your posts. You should KNOW that.

And I'm not "crusading" anything...  Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't make me objectively "wrong".  If you're just gonna ad hominem me, though, then this ain't gonna go far.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

40 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If you truly think this is all everyone else has been saying, then we're not simply dealing with a problem of hilariously bad faith here, but one of basic reading comprehension. Please, try a little harder.

Your "argument" relies on the assumption that Warframe/DE "needs" to improve upon the system to gain/keep more players.  You're also assuming that players that don't last are players DE "wanted" to keep.

Both these assumptions have no real data to back them, and when data has been requested, all you've done is made a big assumption about other platforms, and you've pointed me to Steam, which doesn't actually show what you assert that it does.

So, again... where is your REAL constructive criticism of a REAL issue?   

Just "make more tutorials"?  Because DE did that. Josh Hayes SAID in his video that he LIKED the tutorials, in fact.  

[vanaukas]

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Nope. Saw it..  FOR STEAM ONLY.  Did you somehow miss the part where NOWHERE in the video did he show console or WF Launcher numbers?  Because he doesn't have them.

Do you have them, then? Do you have any evidence for why retention rates would be meaningfully different? You seem to have this running problem of responding to facts and data with conjecture, and with using said conjecture to reject the facts. It's like you never cared about the facts at all.

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

"reworked".  Past tense.  

Meaning they DID hear the feedback and already went through that change... and then deemed it did nothing for retention. 

Would you happen to have the source where they claimed that this rework "did nothing for retention"? The fact that they reworked (past tense) at least some part of the new player experience, and also poured literal millions of dollars into an opening cinematic, seems to contradict the notion that there was no worth in doing so.

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You keep implying that DE has an issue with the NPE which is costing them new player retention.  Thus, implying they are losing players...  

There's no evidence to support they are losing any meaningful number of players, and thus your concerns over this issue, and your assertion that you know "how to fix" a problem that doesn't exist, are moot.

Okay, so I did not in fact make that claim, you just decided to throw some BS my way and put words in my mouth because hey, why not. Apparently pointing out that less than half of all of Warframe's players quit before the first two hours is equivalent to claiming that the game is "hemorrhaging players", because when one sees even the most benign criticism as a personal attack against DE, Warframe, and oneself, that sort of loopy logic must make sense.

And for the record, I linked to you charts showing precise data for the decline in Warframe's player base, twice. I guess fact is no match for the power of sheer delusion.

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

The fact that MORE people jumped on during a promotional event/big media release does not show a decline in overall average.  You're misreading the spike as a "new average" that then "declined", which is not how averages work.

Had you bothered to actually read the chart, you would've noticed that the steady decline happened after the sharp decline that inevitably follows the spike from a large update. Had you bothered to compare this to other instances of player fluctuation in Warframe, of which there are many, you would have noticed that this happens essentially every time, and the decline does not stop until the next update.

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

PS:  The Steam charts alone, which again are not a direct correlation to other consoles, show steady growth since Warframe's inception:

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410#All

Nothing there indicates they're losing players.  It shows that hype from a new release died down, that's ALL.

Did... did you even read the chart? Are you incapable of noticing how the curve peaks at the interval between 2018 and 2019, or are you really trying to make the fatuous argument that Warframe's player count isn't declining because it's still higher than in 2013?

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Some people have, yeah... but the same can be said of you and your "sad little crusade to pretend that everything's terrible". 

That's nice, except I have taken many occasions to praise DE and Warframe on this very thread:

On 2021-08-08 at 1:50 PM, Teridax68 said:

Warframe has an amazing core gameplay loop, one of the best I have personally experienced in any video game, yet is mired in some of the worst systems design out of any game as well. The gunplay and parkour are excellent and mesh fluidly with one another, but the game also fails to provide a consistent, let alone good early game experience,

On 2021-08-10 at 2:38 PM, Teridax68 said:

The thing is, DE have realized this and taken steps to better integrate at least some of Warframe's parasitic content, to varying degrees of success. Archwing, for example, was once a purely parasitic bit of design that became better-integrated once it was used as an additional mode of movement in open levels and Railjack. While fixing the parasitic content in Warframe and limiting the amount that appears in the future would be a monumental task, it wouldn't be impossible either, and would be well worth it if this game is expected to last for many more years (I certainly would want that).

I know that you are desperate to frame me as a villain simply because I dared to make some measure of criticism, but the reality is that I like Warframe too, which is why I want to see it improve and am ready to give feedback on that. I did not come here to attack anyone either, you were the one who chose to pick a fight with me, once again for the crime of pointing out a flaw in this game you like. These pointless attacks, these breathless, rambling spammed consecutive posts, these pathetic attempts at a "no u" are all immature habits that ought to be kicked before you partake in any sort of discussion.

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Your "argument" relies on the assumption that Warframe/DE "needs" to improve upon the system to gain/keep more players.  You're also assuming that players that don't last are players DE "wanted" to keep.

My argument is backed up by Warframe's literal entire development history, and DE's continued efforts to improve the game. I am assuming that DE would want to retain those players because, well, why wouldn't they want more paying customers? Why are you assuming that they wouldn't? For all your accusations that others are relying on assumptions rather than data, the fact remains that you have been presented with oodles of data and simple, basic logic, and have responded with shrieking, gibbering nonsense. You will never see facts or constructive criticism when those are presented to you because you simply refuse to do so, and are more willing to cause yourself immense and unnecessary pain by taking every criticism of the game as a grievous personal insult, and mischaracterizing everything and everyone to that effect. Nothing you have said or done so far has been to the benefit of civil discussion, let alone Warframe, DE, or even yourself, so one has to ask: why are you doing all this?

 

[Zimzala]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk said:

My windshield isn't cracked. It's just a design choice. 

The screen on my phone isn't broken. It's just a design choice. 

My car isn't missing a wheel. It's just a design choice. 

After all.....it's only a problem of you choose to see it that way 🙂

(Jesus Christ lol) 

I'll take completely OTT and meaningless analogies for $1000!

Hilarious! 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk said:

Not having a comprehensive tutorial in your game is not "art" or subjective opinion. 

 

That the problem exists is a fact though. That cannot be denied. You can either be okay with it existing or not okay with it with it existing. But it has been one of the larger issues for Warframe for years and years now.  

Well it can be. It's very common for movie critics to critique movies that have too much exposition. Letting the audience figure things out is what some people want, instead of laying it all out in their face, which can be seen as not respecting their intelligence or thinking they need kid hands so they need everything spelled out. 

An example of this is when a movie basically stops everything to do a recap of the whole movies plot before it finishes with the last act.

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, vanaukas said:

The reference went over my head.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Kaotyke said:

The reference went over my head.

Mine too. Maybe it's referencing how nice morning dew on grass feels? All that green makes me feel pretty chill

[Zimzala]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Well it can be. It's very common for movie critics to critique movies that have too much exposition. Letting the audience figure things out is what some people want, instead of laying it all out in their face, which can be seen as not respecting their intelligence or thinking they need kid hands so they need everything spelled out. 

An example of this is when a movie basically stops everything to do a recap of the whole movies plot before it finishes with the last act.

Exactly.

Some people want to know the plot before they see the movie and IME, those are the people that think they have to know everything there is to know before starting a game.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know everything before playing, there is nothing wrong with wanting more guidance in the game.

But there is also nothing wrong if a game is designed to make one figure it out either.

It's simply a choice by the creators as to how they choose to implement. 

6 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

The reference went over my head.

 

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Mine too. Maybe it's referencing how nice morning dew on grass feels? All that green makes me feel pretty chill

It's the suggestion of leaving the keyboard and getting some fresh air over dying on the hill of 'tutorials are the only thing holding WF back' might be the better course, IMO...

[Aldain]

5 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

The reference went over my head.

I think it might be that new "Go touch some grass" thing that's been leaking from Reddit and/or 4chan lately, but I could be wrong.

Basically a "go outside you sweaty neckbeard" type insult because humanity has lost the ability to communicate in a civil fashion.

But again, could be wrong.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Oh no, such a nice picture, too 😕

[Kaotyke]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I think it might be that new "Go touch some grass" thing that's been leaking from Reddit and/or 4chan lately, but I could be wrong.

Basically a "go outside you sweaty neckbeard" type insult because humanity has lost the ability to communicate in a civil fashion.

But again, could be wrong.

I dont have a neckbeard.

I shaved today.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I dont have a neckbeard.

I shaved today.

I really need to shave myself...my beard does that whole "viking braid" thing when I put it off for too long...and it is also turning orange despite that not being my hair color.

[PublikDomain]

On 2021-08-16 at 12:42 PM, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

But that only applies to the FIRST video (which was fine).. the other 2 are SPECULATION on his part, based on hearsay from others that he's heard ABOUT Warframe, but not his personal experiences (unless he's a time traveler, and can somehow objectively speak on ALL of a game he's only played a portion of).

On 2021-08-16 at 12:42 PM, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

The point here was NOT to discount JSH's "new player experience".. it was pointing out that what came AFTER, his assumptions about the OVERALL game, including later game, without having experienced any of it yet, was just that... assumptions.

The second video isn't about Warframe, it's a refutation of the excuse that "it gets better 100 hours in". He mentions Warframe once.

The third video likewise isn't about Warframe, it's about the idea of "parasitic design". He mainly talks about WoW, MTG, and Runescape. Those are the places where he gives his examples. When he does talk about Warframe, it's once talking over a screenshot of a forum post back from 2015, and once where he says he's starting to see elements of parasitic design in Warframe because, y'know, he's been playing the game recently and has the personal experience of noticing it.

On 2021-08-16 at 12:42 PM, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

If it's an opinion based only on that person's point-of-view/experience, it's a SUBJECTIVE experience, not objective.

And the experience itself is entirely objective and conclusions drawn are always valid. If I say "I ate Home Chef ravioli for dinner today and felt that the sauce was watery", that's an objective, factual statement. My objective, factual experience is that I felt the sauce was watery. Yes, my opinion is subjective, but the water in the bottom of the container is an objective observation and my conclusions from that are always valid. But regardless of how you want to nitpick about whether something is objective or subjective, you can't just dismiss someone's personal experience as not being real or not being valid. You can't just discard someone's experience because they're an outsider, or because they haven't met some arbitrary standard, or because of the format of their feedback, or because of where it's being talked about, or because you think they're being malicious or lying.

On 2021-08-16 at 12:42 PM, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

But we, the players, are not the board of investors, nor are we staff at DE.  They do not owe us a minute-to-minute update on all projects in the works.  They could be working out ideas surrounding NPE right NOW and just haven't told us because...well.. we don't need to know.

No one is saying otherwise?

[TheArmchairThinker]

I think there are other factors on the so-called new player experience/retention on why a lot of players not having 2 hours on steam

1. They dislike the aesthetic

The game design doesn't click with them with how warframes look, which is described by someone as alien in bodysuit

2. They don't like the RPG element

New players might get turned off with how "complex" the mod system is, having critical chance, critical damage, status chance etc when they expect a CoD style gameplay where you pick a weapon and blast enemies, not calculating numbers like some players do with spreadsheet to get maximum damage output (when it's really as simple as any RPG game has as the system)

3. They skip tutorial and have no idea

One of the worst if not the worst type of player, they would skip any tutorial and jump into the game confused, only to complain later

4. They don't listen or pay attention to the tutorial

Another worst type of player, basically they don't pay attention at all, just follow the words on the screen and once they're not held by their hands, they don't have any shred of idea what to do. Almost like a cow with nose ring

What are you going to do if you were in DE's shoes for these kind of players? I doubt even with more and improved tutorial they will stay longer

And from what I see, Josh said it's a good thing to have hidden tutorial one the first video and on the next video he complains about it? Is this some kind of bipolarity we're seeing now?

For the gameplay experience itself, it's really as simpler as following lines from dot to dot, how hard is that to understand?

Must everything in this game hold your hands until you manage to reach Venus just to prevent new players from getting confused

And should we put mobile game style tutorial where the screen dims except on highlighted area to tell them what is this and what to do? Vor's prize covers nearly all of the basics from movement to mission objective so what else new players need?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2021-08-16 at 11:10 AM, (PSN)Coyote_x_Starrk said:

Not having a comprehensive tutorial in your game is not "art" or subjective opinion. 

 

That the problem exists is a fact though. That cannot be denied. You can either be okay with it existing or not okay with it with it existing. But it has been one of the larger issues for Warframe for years and years now.  

To be honest, Warframe has a tutorial and it is directed to you: the codecs. While I do think the mod section does throw players off, I think the only fix it needs is to grey out all other areas except the direct upgrade section. The sell, dissolve, transmute and ayatan sections should be slowly revealed after certain planets are uncovered. This would allow a better sense of progression.

Beyond that one section, the game tells you how to walk, run, jump, slide, shoot, stab, enter planets, get a doggy, install a mod, add elements, etc. What War frame does NOT want to do is hold your hand and guide you through its world. Instead, it wants you to get lost in adventure. Now, personally, I would've loved for DE to hide the open worlds until after the Second Dream. I know that would've given me an awesome eye opening experience...because it actually did when the Plains were first introduced, well after I completed the star chart!! It was perfect!