Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!

[kebra]

I've stopped subsuming any Warframe as soon as I learnt what was coming next. Once again, player are punished for using an in game mechanic...

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

40 minutes ago, kebra said:

I've stopped subsuming any Warframe as soon as I learnt what was coming next. Once again, player are punished for using an in game mechanic...

The day these notes were released, I had already put in my second to last frame for subsuming. My pain is endless.

 

55 minutes ago, (PSN)JORDIMSX said:

Hi, it would be great if GOLDEN INSTINCT could lead us to Somachord fragments and Rare containers too. Some players are asking for Sabotage caches too, but I think that would be a bad idea. I have a lot of fun looking for them. Even if I only look for them when there's a night wave challenge asking for it.

So because a bunch of players ask for it and YOU like looking for them, the mechanic shouldn't be there? What kind of logic is that? You can just not use the ability. 

55 minutes ago, (PSN)JORDIMSX said:

I like the idea behind the Invigoration System. It will make us get out of our "comfort zone" ( you know, those 5 frames we use for EVERYTHING) by playing the super buffed Warframe of the week. There are so many Frames I haven't used in years ant this will definetely make me use them again

Oh? Really? You'll pass up using the frames you need in order to perform activities at max efficiency just to get use out of a weekly RANDOM buff? You'd rather this than them make the frames not used just better? Bet you won't be happy when you see "Hosting X thing, must have Y frame with Z buff in order to get an inv"

[TheLexiConArtist]

37 minutes ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Bet you won't be happy when you see "Hosting X thing, must have Y frame with Z buff in order to get an inv"

Friendly reminder that this is needles sensationalism and will last maybe a couple days by a handful of people before those people have to realise they're wasting their time banking on long odds they probably have no straightforward way of verifying.

 Frame dilution, buff dilution, activity dilution, region dilution, timeframe dilution.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

23 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Friendly reminder that this is needles sensationalism and will last maybe a couple days by a handful of people before those people have to realise they're wasting their time banking on long odds they probably have no straightforward way of verifying.

 Frame dilution, buff dilution, activity dilution, region dilution, timeframe dilution.

If so many are coming to the conclusion on their own without even looking at the thread, then is it sensatiionalism or is it many people thinking similarly and voicing their worry? You're right. There is no way to verify it'll happen. That's what a prediction is. We base what we think will happen based on what we know and have experienced. Many of us know what the community is capable of or do you not often see "Hosting tridolon. 200+ caps"? People crave efficiency and will readily exclude anyone who doesn't meet that standard. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

If so many are coming to the conclusion on their own without even looking at the thread, then is it sensatiionalism or is it many people thinking similarly and voicing their worry? 

Both. People thinking similarly into sensationalist conclusions and voicing worries that fall apart when you actually think about the way it works out in practice.

I'm not blaming people for being worried, we've all seen Eidolon squad toxicity.
It just doesn't hold up under the weight of the RNG, and the catch-22 of how the likelier it is to find people wanting to fill that role (before the Invigoration RNG barrier), the more squads would be vying for the few who break the RNG barrier - there wouldn't be enough to go around, so it's a waste of time.

Plus, the whole issue of validating the buff claim.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

On 2021-06-18 at 2:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

PARASITIC ARMOR (11)

Sacrifice Shields to reinforce Armor for a period of time

might be an interesting choice on Hildryn, but beyond that, I doubt it will be powerful enoguh to be worth the slot on other frames.

On 2021-06-18 at 2:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

HIDEOUS RESISTANCE (12)

Grant yourself immunity to Status effects.

I can't really think of that many places where this would be needed, since most status effects on us are usually quite short lived and resisted by tanking, or simply avoiding the hazard altogether (a lot of things that burn/electrocute us are things you can just destroy or move around, like Flaming Pipes, Door Lasers etc.

On 2021-06-18 at 2:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

VORACIOUS METASTASIS (13)

Consume Energy to heal yourself and grant matching Energy to each ally.

probably not gonna be that useful to a Zenurik user like me who already generates tons of energy for the whole squad. it might however be useful on some caster fraems with big energy pools and no healing, like Nova, if you use a different Focus. 

On 2021-06-18 at 2:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

SICKENING PULSE (14)

Emit a pulse that adds stacks to Status Effects already afflicting enemies, except Bleed or Toxin effects which are duplicated with fresh timers.

inb4 this and revised Condition Overload becomes the Meta.

On 2021-06-18 at 2:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

GOLDEN INSTINCT (15)

Send out a short-lived Void Spark that is drawn toward the nearest Medallion, Ayatan Sculpture, unscanned Kuria or unscanned Fragment.

something like this IMO should a be utility gear item, not something that takes up a whole power slot. who is gonna be so desperate to find collectibles they would remove a power from their frame? I would think given the grind you need to do to get Helminth, make duplicates of frames to subsume and rank him up, people would already have found the majority of fragments along the way. plus you know, YouTube is a thing. 

On 2021-06-18 at 2:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Visit SON in the Necralisk on DEIMOS to obtain the New Segment required to upgrade your Helminth to perform a new operation: Invigorations! 

oh good, more Conservation..... yaaaaayyyy....... I'm positively foaming at the mouth in despair excitement

On 2021-06-18 at 2:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Zephyr: 200% Power Strength and Immune To Status
Atlas: 200% Primary Critical Chance and +1000 Armor
Excalibur: 250% Melee Damage and 75% power Efficiency

jesus..... nice as I'm sure those buffs are to have, I see this being a problem:

On 2021-06-18 at 4:40 PM, 16Bitman said:

Instead of pushing us to play Warframes we don't like, players will instead demand +200% power strength buffs for certain activities.

Farming Harrow? Better have a 300% Power Strength +200% Helminth Power Strength Wisp on you or you're not invited!

people already ask for specific MR ranks and Tricap Experience in Recruit chat as it is, so you know Meta squads desperate for fast runs will only allow people who have the right buffs on the right frame. plus we already have a TON of RNG in the game as it is; seriously, this is basically like having Warframe Rivens, except you don't even get to keep them permanently. I'm sorry DE, but as fun as they sound, and as much as I like power, these buffs are not a good idea in their current form and are just gonna make things worse in terms of balance (especially if they stack ith Arbitration Buffs). and there's 6 pages of people here before me with a majority that seem to feel the same, so I'm hoping you'll do a 180 on this.

PS: I originally thought I posted this on the day the  workshop went live, but apparently not ,it's now been 4 days and DE seems liek they have no intention of changing invigorations...

 

[Raptoreagle2000]

There are a lot of legit reasons for not wanting the Invigoration System ... one of which isn't matchmaking. How will you know who gets what buff?  You stay in chat asking for +200% power strength chroma, the tridolon hunt would probably be over before you get the chroma. 

I don't have a problem with the system, it wont make me use frames i don't touch.. no matter the buff they get. Since i have all the frames, i'll just wait it out till the random cycle ends and buff the frames i like to use every week.  

[Maka.Bones]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

Are they going to remove Trinity's ability from the Helminth or something? I haven't watched those "adult movies".

I don't get what you mean by "adult movies" but Trinity's helminth ability doesn't give any energy (that I'm aware of)

7 hours ago, quxier said:

more rad = enemy deals more damage

Ohhh right, this would help them destroy themselves faster. True, good point

7 hours ago, quxier said:

What if you have e.g. Viral or Slash and your ability deals Heat? If you were to spam the ability Viral or Slash would soon disappear.

Oh yeah, in situations like this it would be useful indeed.... Assuming that the enemies were actually going to live longer than the status procs. 

The issue is that enemies which are worth using multiple status combos like this on, tend to also be immune to status effects or resistant to Warframe abilities (bosses, eidolons, demolysts, acolytes, liches). So there isn't really any gameplay which would make this worthwhile even in the event of combining status effects..  because normal mobs would likely die very shortly after combining those status procs. 

 

So I think the only status effects/warframes which might benefit from this might be:

Spoiler

- viral from miasma in SP (miasma has a high cost, and large enough range application that many enemies will have it still even while teammates are actively killing mobs)

- radiation from Oberon? But all his abilities are already really good, so would it really be a good idea to replace one for this ability?... Not sure who else is super effective at applying radiation faster than you could've killed the enemies in the first place.

-  Ember w/ heat procs, since she does have a map wide heat proc, and a way to spread fire relatively fast, and fireball could be swapped out in some builds.

- volt maybe? Since his AoE shock doesn't deal much damage... But his other abilities are already really good, so would you really want to give up any of them? Could increasing shock status stacks really be better than speed, shock shield, or electric damage on your weps? Guess that depends on the individual

-  I could maybe see this being useful on wisp, if you removed her 2 for this. Then you could use it after a brief swipe of her sol gate while holding all 3 motes, and it could increase her heat/radiation/shock/corrosive procs.... But sol doesn't have a fast or large radius of status application, and then you'd be giving up a large part of her survivability by replacing her 2. Also since mobs are stunned by shock and heat, the radiation proc would be lost. I mean... Maybe for actually tough opponents, since it might be cheaper than keeping sol gate open for long. 

- Garuda would likely benefit more from the heal than from this, but maybe she could use it too.

- Frost already freezes enemies, so wouldn't benefit from doubling cold procs. 

- Nova wouldn't want this ability since her 4 already covers anything she might need in terms of enemy debuffs. I can't think of an ability to swap on lavos for this. 

- Could this help mag somehow? maybe when the sisters of parvos content comes out? tho she's already super effective at removing shields on her own, so i'm not sure if this would really be useful. 

- does equinox's maim also apply slash procs, or does it only deals slash damage?

- protea's grenade fan, if the player didn't like her 2 or 4... But they already apply a lot of rapid slash on their own, so unless this ability has a super fast cast speed and super low energy cost... 

- Impact could be mass applied by Loki's radial disarm, and then with the new parazon changes it could be super easy to open anyone in SP to parazon finishers... Though Loki could've already just used melee finishers while invisible. It seems more like a meme build, but it's an option I guess. 

 

.... Yeah this still seems underwhelming to me. There aren't many warframes who can effectively use this ability, even with most ideal ability specs. The only ones I could see genuinely benefiting from this are Saryn, Ember, Garuda, mayyyyyybe on Wisp, and Loki if some of the new parazon mods make it worth the meme build for loki... assuming your teammates don't instantly kill the enemies anyway. 

 

3-5 Warframes, out of 35. 

I still feel like most Helminth-inherent abilities are often MOSTLY useful, but only if there was already something worse to replace. Doesn't feel like they're "another good option" which enables player creativity, because there aren't many situations where those abilities would inherently be good choice. They feel more like "a band-aid" we could use on things that were already bad... Now we can make them "less-bad" but not quite "good" yet either.

 

It seems like a very British approach, with how much it expects something to already be terrible. (I'm joking here)

[Sahd-Pahk]

I'm sorry, but RNG isn't content. 

[Aphyxia0]

I cannot agree with the decision of just nulling the effort of early adopters who have subsumed all the warframes. Big dislike.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 hours ago, Raptoreagle2000 said:

There are a lot of legit reasons for not wanting the Invigoration System ... one of which isn't matchmaking. How will you know who gets what buff?  You stay in chat asking for +200% power strength chroma, the tridolon hunt would probably be over before you get the chroma. 

I don't have a problem with the system, it wont make me use frames i don't touch.. no matter the buff they get. Since i have all the frames, i'll just wait it out till the random cycle ends and buff the frames i like to use every week.  

If a group waits an hour for a buffed frame that's their fault. There's no invigoration now....and people are still doing them. Wild, huh?

[Gendalph]

On 2021-06-18 at 4:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap.

Why? I have everything maxed out, almost everything I needed subsumed - subsumed, everything I needed infused - infused. Now I have to waste resources on getting the new levels.

Can we at least get XP based on subsumed Warframes?

[(XBOX)HellMark619]

i already fed it everything so i'm not dumping years worth of resources to feed it just to get powers i'll not use .. you really need to reconsider the no xp thing DE , at least have a check to see if you already fed it all frames you will automatically get to rank 15 

 

[simon_goldshark]

On 2021-06-18 at 9:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Grant yourself immunity to Status effects.

this is pointless since we can already subsume spellbind on to any frame

[effiiy]

Had nothing to do while I was waiting for the update, started to complete the Helminth collection... now I wish I hadn't. 

So bad of you to not support the players who invested in the system. 

[simon_goldshark]

On 2021-06-18 at 11:40 AM, 16Bitman said:

Is there a system to track our current Helminth experience points, or will we all have to "start" at Rank 10?

The best way to rank Helminth was subsuming Warframes, but that is no longer an option for me.

 

Edit:

"INVIGORATIONS"

Are pretty horrible.

Instead of pushing us to play Warframes we don't like, players will instead demand +200% power strength buffs for certain activities.

Farming Harrow? Better have a 300% Power Strength +200% Helminth Power Strength Wisp on you or you're not invited!

 

We will also have to really carefully use our 10+ buff of choice for events, if you use it on the wrong Warframe, you will be at a severe disadvantage to make it big on the leaderboards.

 

This system just leads to severe power creep or player exclusion you can't fix by farming the right gear, I don't think it should be added at all.

 

Edit 2:

Short ability review:
 

If you're interested in armor, you already won't be interested in your shields, so I currently don't see a downside to this ability.

Also kind of boring, if you want more armor, you already have "Defy", "Elemental Ward" and "Warcry", if this isn't better than the best one, why would I bother infusing it?

 

So is this just the self cast effect of "Spellbind" ? I can see a use for this it it has a much longer duration and shorter cast speed, but I personally don't think this adds anything to the game we didn't have before.

Edit: There's also Firewalker which adds a variety of benefits in addition to status immunity + status cleanse.
 

This looks entirely new, it depends on cast speed and/or cost, but an ability to instantly restore energy for others for every Warframe sounds good so far.
 

The usefulness of this ablity depends on how many stacks you get on cast, is it multiplicative or static? I think I'd rather just inflict more status with whatever caused it in the first place, but it might be good to have in a team setting.
 

This sounds good, but I don't think I'd ditch greedy pull for this.

Don't make it too short lived either please.

What others have already said, but I'll reiterate.

Add Rare Crates, Reinforced Crates and Sabotage Caches to this ability, make it clear if the ability has nothing to detect.

this guy gets it

way more thought needs to be put into these systems 

DO NOT just give people random 200% powers strength for a whole week that's just #*!%ing stupid 

the only reason it works for arbitrations is because its only one mission where dying is actually dangerous 

letting players go into any mission with those level of buffs is just an incredibly bad idea    

if your going to do invigorations make them the same for every player or make the bonuses much much smaller

or here is another concept

each week 3 helminth abilities (from the whole list of abilities to be clear) are a % stronger for everyone

this gives players encouragement to use those subsumed ability's when they otherwise wouldn't have 

but doesn't let RNG give randomly give some players much bigger advantages 

[Radu10]

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Both. People thinking similarly into sensationalist conclusions and voicing worries that fall apart when you actually think about the way it works out in practice.

I'm not blaming people for being worried, we've all seen Eidolon squad toxicity.
It just doesn't hold up under the weight of the RNG, and the catch-22 of how the likelier it is to find people wanting to fill that role (before the Invigoration RNG barrier), the more squads would be vying for the few who break the RNG barrier - there wouldn't be enough to go around, so it's a waste of time.

Plus, the whole issue of validating the buff claim.

I don't understand tho why you trying debunk people worried about this system.

Do you think this will be a great addition to the game, will make people use hydroid everywhere?

You either say you agree with our concerns or just say you got the exact opposite opinion, DE needs understand if majority of players agree or not. I can only pray they will read all those comments

 

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If a group waits an hour for a buffed frame that's their fault. There's no invigoration now....and people are still doing them. Wild, huh?

Arbitrations? True and they always use meta frames despite the ones currently buffed there, pointless isn't it?
And the average activity is very low, lower than normal SO actually

 

8 hours ago, Raptoreagle2000 said:

it wont make me use frames i don't touch.. no matter the buff they get.

But this was DE's goal with this system, so why even add this if will not work? 

[TheLexiConArtist]

23 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

I don't understand tho why you trying debunk people worried about this system.

Do you think this will be a great addition to the game, will make people use hydroid everywhere?

You either say you agree with our concerns or just say you got the exact opposite opinion, DE needs understand if majority of players agree or not. I can only pray they will read all those comments

False dichotomy.

I can debunk doomsaying regardless of whether or not I think the system is overall a good idea.

[Radu10]

3 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

False dichotomy.

I can debunk doomsaying regardless of whether or not I think the system is overall a good idea.

Yeah the recruit part, which was only one of the several issues I listed, and still you can't predict exactly how recruiting will be affected as well, but I agree that's the "weakest" point I made

I'll still ask what you think about this system, a feedback is needed this time, the more people will express themselves the better

[(PSN)ClaimingKarma]

this fear of people requiring the invigorations seems unfounded. 

Do people sit around looking for a perfect team for arbitrations? and that's 300% 

[quxier]

5 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I don't get what you mean by "adult movies"

I mean Devstreams about various things in youtube that are +18 (hence adult movies).

5 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Trinity's helminth ability doesn't give any energy (that I'm aware of)

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Pool_of_Life

6 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

The issue is that enemies which are worth using multiple status combos like this on, tend to also be immune to status effects or resistant to Warframe abilities (bosses, eidolons, demolysts, acolytes, liches). So there isn't really any gameplay which would make this worthwhile even in the event of combining status effects..  because normal mobs would likely die very shortly after combining those status procs. 

 

So I think the only status effects/warframes which might benefit from this might be:

What about user that don't min-max?

[ZenHare]

9 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Both. People thinking similarly into sensationalist conclusions and voicing worries that fall apart when you actually think about the way it works out in practice.

I'm not blaming people for being worried, we've all seen Eidolon squad toxicity.
It just doesn't hold up under the weight of the RNG, and the catch-22 of how the likelier it is to find people wanting to fill that role (before the Invigoration RNG barrier), the more squads would be vying for the few who break the RNG barrier - there wouldn't be enough to go around, so it's a waste of time.

Plus, the whole issue of validating the buff claim.

DE could add 300% Strength to Hydroid and I still wouldn't use that frame. It no different than the buffs on arbitrations which everyone ignores. Forcing me to play those frames to get the buff on the frames that I do want to play is a $&*^ move.  

[twirlandswirl]

On 2021-06-18 at 9:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

This is honestly really frustrating. I worked really hard to subsume every frame (I still have Sevagoth left but that's it) and I feel kinda like all that effort was foolish. Some of the frames I really wanted the abilities from, sure, I'm glad I subsumed. But most of them, I just like completion, I like being DONE, and I'm frustrated that's putting me farther behind people who still have frames left to subsume.

It may be it doesn't end up mattering, but in principle, since the XP isn't retroactive, it really feels like my effort was ignored and it's harder to convince myself the make the effort again.

[Radu10]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)ClaimingKarma said:

this fear of people requiring the invigorations seems unfounded. 

Do people sit around looking for a perfect team for arbitrations? and that's 300% 

Most old players on pc are done with arbitrations, simple as that, sometimes they do a defence when there are specific tilesets to "speedrun" it.
Ofc missions played more will have a different result.

And still speedrunners and leadeboard players will massively get issues after this update, for the sake of DE trying make people use low-usage frames.
But this "sacrifice" will be pointless 'cause those frames will still be left behind.

[Radu10]

 

9 hours ago, ZenHare said:

DE could add 300% Strength to Hydroid and I still wouldn't use that frame. It no different than the buffs on arbitrations which everyone ignores. Forcing me to play those frames to get the buff on the frames that I do want to play is a $&*^ move.  

  Exactly