Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!

[Zedar451]

On 2021-06-19 at 5:18 PM, master_of_destiny said:

 

OK....time to stop.

 

Terminology folks.  Let's pay attention for just a moment, then understand whether a freak out should happen.

 

An automatic level-up would be that I earned maximum rank, so when new ranks are available I get them regardless of anything else.  If we use the Necramech, it'd be an "I'm level 30 today so when the update hits I'll automatically be level 40, right?"

 

THIS IS WHAT DE IS SAYING WILL NOT HAPPEN.

 

So what are they saying will happen?  Well, you'll rank up based upon earned affinity.  Affinity can be earned by subsuming, applying abilities, or feeding.  This is literally repeating how the system currently works.

So, what has DE stated?  Well....nothing explicitly.  You don't just get 5 free ranks.  IF THEY REPEAT WHAT THEY DID WITH NECRAMECHS, YOUR ACCUMULATED XP WILL THEN BE USED TO RANK YOU UP.  

 

I ASKED FOR CITATION THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE DISREGARDED....WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PROVIDED.  WHEN MECHS GOT EXTRA LEVELS THEIR ACCUMULATED XP WAS USED TO CALCULATE THEIR NEW LEVEL.

 

Please note the bold sections.  DE said you will rank up only from accumulated XP.  The XP is received from what you do....which is a no-duh.  They have not stated that you will not gain levels upon implementation due to accumulated XP, only that there is no automatic free 5 level gain.  Please, read.  It's not a subtle sentence, and the freak out here is coming from literally nothing.  Pay attention to the word "automatic," and note the lack of "earned."

So now that the update is out and the thing we said was gonna happen happened, I'll wait for your apology.

[Sempiternal_Dysphoria]

I like that I got to level 10 in helminth before subsuming all frames and I kept subsuming frames so I could have all frames at my disposal. But now all those that I added after maxing don't add any progress onto the new helminth system, meaning those who played the game slower are at an inherent advantage over me.

Yous did it with nightwave where people were maxed in level but kept completing challenges and you eventually added more levels to accommodate for those still doing nightwave and gave them the appropriate amount of levels/nw credits scaling with how many challnges they've completed post-maxing.

Why can't you do the same for this?

[-Augustus-]

On 2021-06-19 at 12:18 PM, master_of_destiny said:

Well, you'll rank up based upon earned affinity.  Affinity can be earned by subsuming, applying abilities, or feeding.  This is literally repeating how the system currently works.

So, what has DE stated?  Well....nothing explicitly.  You don't just get 5 free ranks.  IF THEY REPEAT WHAT THEY DID WITH NECRAMECHS, YOUR ACCUMULATED XP WILL THEN BE USED TO RANK YOU UP.  

 

I ASKED FOR CITATION THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE DISREGARDED....WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PROVIDED.  WHEN MECHS GOT EXTRA LEVELS THEIR ACCUMULATED XP WAS USED TO CALCULATE THEIR NEW LEVEL.

 

Please note the bold sections.  DE said you will rank up only from accumulated XP.  The XP is received from what you do....which is a no-duh.  They have not stated that you will not gain levels upon implementation due to accumulated XP, only that there is no automatic free 5 level gain.  Please, read.  It's not a subtle sentence, and the freak out here is coming from literally nothing.  Pay attention to the word "automatic," and note the lack of "earned."

Someone needed to pay attention, for sure.

[Radu10]

On 2021-06-24 at 12:20 AM, Kilo24 said:

I think the Invigorations system is not going to achieve its goal of encouraging interest in underused frames.  Spending resources to temporarily buff frames you're not interested in in the first place is a hard sell, and these boosts will likely benefit fully ranked/forma-ed frames more strongly than underplayed ones.  Powers need a high rank warframe to be useful, and while the weapon buffs are less warframe-dependent they also don't do all that much to sell the player on the warframe itself instead of the buff.

Moreover, the sheer power of the buffs being thrown around is not trivial.  It's like a riven mod for warframes that - instead of doing the work of perhaps 2 or 3 mods and costing ~1.5 times as a normal mod does in capacity - does around 7-8 without any capacity or slot cost, is randomly acquired, and vanishes after a week.  It's even a big enough boost that it might turn the warframe du jour into an interchangeable buff vessel, with a helminth ability and warframe-agnostic build slapped on it to take advantage of the buff.  The sheer power being thrown around here overwhelms much of the other systems in the game, and does so based on luck and a limited duration.  It will turn the meta of any mode it's part of into a matter of luck and grinding out 10th-infusion choices, and in doing so would significantly reduce the appeal of attaining what would be a meta build without this system. 

Now, what might be an interesting alternative is some system that targets experimenting and leveling up underused frames specifically, and has little effect on the power level of frames that the player has already heavily invested in.  If infusion instead applied a temporary removal of the mod capacity limits on the infused frame, that would let a player freely experiment with the frame without expending forma but not be a major benefit to a frame that you've already maxed out.  There could also be other benefits to encourage leveling, like that frame earning double affinity, or having the first forma you apply to it be free, or making any further helminth ability switches free.  You could also receive a significant boost in a mode that's already designed for such boosts: say, arbitrations would always give their +power benefits to an infused frame, and/or void fissures would always give the reactant buff to the frame in addition to a random weapon.  That would encourage players to try underused frames, but have a limited effect on others.

Totally agree on everything, let's see how long it will last ingame before being tweaked or even removed

[Radu10]

On 2021-06-24 at 11:55 PM, Kegnor97 said:

I'm not gonna lie, I would much rather that frames got a "Zephyr treatment" instead of using helmith on them, but the thing is, with the data they get from helmith usage they can have a much better idea of what people dislike, and with the envigirations they can get data on what frames people wiuld like to boost but don't find a good ability to put on them, remember that the zephyr rework got released after the helminth, that means that reworking or buffing frames is not outside DE's priorities even with Helmith existing

thing is priority speaking they should've done this the other way around, reworks first, then this system eventually, I can't see their current logic at all to be honest...

Feels like a lazy band-aid, not helping heal the wound itself.

[Radu10]

On 2021-06-30 at 8:43 PM, Perisie said:

Welp, the official announcement for the launch of the next patch is up, and none of the feedback was taken into account for Helminth. What was the point of this dev workshop again?

Yep, precisely, no script for those who subsumed everything already, I'm not one of them but I agree that's a bad move to do.

Invigorations randomly appeared, 'cause I personally never heard of them before this post, I would like to talk with some design council members actually if someone knows one of them.

I wanna see if those invigorations have ever been discussed and why this idea even started to begin with...

[Radu10]

On 2021-06-30 at 9:03 PM, (PSN)RWalls91 said:

Community: We dislike Invigorations.

Also community: we should get the XP for the excess frames we subsumed!

DE: Yeah we're going ahead regardless of your feedback. Tough luck on the XP.

Sadly true

[(PSN)RWalls91]

15 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Sadly true

Well it's even better now! (EXTREME SARCASM)

DE: We thought we would clarify that we're not giving you the XP because other MMO's wouldn't.

Community: That's not fair! We're not going to use invigorations because we dislike it.

DE: We're making invigorations give 3x more XP than a subsume, so if you want those ranks you HAVE to use our new system, then we can say the community loves it because you're using it!

Edit: just want to point out in other MMO's you wouldn't necessarily get the XP because you would just throw in more farmable material. You can't re-subsume all the excess warframes you've already done, and if you want to avoid invigorations you're now waiting patiently for some new frames to be released. It's because we can't refarm and re-subsume the warframes that they should honour the XP.

[Radu10]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)RWalls91 said:

Well it's even better now! (EXTREME SARCASM)

DE: We thought we would clarify that we're not giving you the XP because other MMO's wouldn't.

Community: That's not fair! We're not going to use invigorations because we dislike it.

DE: We're making invigorations give 3x more XP than a subsume, so if you want those ranks you HAVE to use our new system, then we can say the community loves it because you're using it!

Edit: just want to point out in other MMO's you wouldn't necessarily get the XP because you would just throw in more farmable material. You can't re-subsume all the excess warframes you've already done, and if you want to avoid invigorations you're now waiting patiently for some new frames to be released. It's because we can't refarm and re-subsume the warframes that they should honour the XP.

Next step is turning them into rivens 'cause they want more players use this buffs

Install new abilities also works I suggest this instead using the invigorations nobody asked for

[Radu10]

9 hours ago, DTAOAE said:

Only I feel that the new features will be very interesting, so that some less commonly used armor will get new opportunities?

Curious to see this 2nd life for bad frames, if there will be and how long it will last...

Spoiler: stats buff wont save frames with bad abilities and no general usefullness in missions to begin with

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, Zedar451 said:

So now that the update is out and the thing we said was gonna happen happened, I'll wait for your apology.

 

Apology....for?

 

I stated that you were freaking out, and you were.

I will admit that I had assumed too much of DE...and frustration that they are absolutely doing their best to drive away veteran players.

 

 

I will not apologize....because you deserve none.  We are all in the same boat.

I will also highlight that the released content is a joke, despite all the hype.  My money is still on people forgetting all of this garbage in about three weeks, when everybody who did the early adopter grind have already earned the max level again and DE announces a new piece of half baked content.

[Radu10]

27 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

Apology....for?

 

I stated that you were freaking out, and you were.

I will admit that I had assumed too much of DE...and frustration that they are absolutely doing their best to drive away veteran players.

 

 

I will not apologize....because you deserve none.  We are all in the same boat.

I will also highlight that the released content is a joke, despite all the hype.  My money is still on people forgetting all of this garbage in about three weeks, when everybody who did the early adopter grind have already earned the max level again and DE announces a new piece of half baked content.

I don't agree with some players' attitude I spotted in this topic, both ways, so yours included...

My first suggestion is to never claim stuff or talk in place of DE, when DE itself then makes your points invalid like dust in the wind

Second let's focus on what matters, what's good and wrong in the update, address those, and be as a community able to report them making DE actually tweak/remove/revert them accordingly.

[(XBOX)Th3BelovedSaint]

Just as a by the way, the new update has broken the Exilus mod slots on primaries and secondaries. Examples being Hush and Suppress. Both take Ivara out of Prowl. As to your statement in the release notes that you refuse to honor our subsuming all frames prior to this release by not giving us rank up credit for all frames sacrificed past Rank 10 cap being "in keeping with other MMOs" the only reason I ever played Warframe at all was BECAUSE it was not like other MMOs. If you are going to become just another MMO, this may well be the end of my journey with Warframe. Our overall community is far less toxic than "other MMOs", for now.

[master_of_destiny]

52 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

I don't agree with some players' attitude I spotted in this topic, both ways, so yours included...

My first suggestion is to never claim stuff or talk in place of DE, when DE itself then makes your points invalid like dust in the wind

Second let's focus on what matters, what's good and wrong in the update, address those, and be as a community able to report them making DE actually tweak/remove/revert them accordingly.

 

So....not responding after this.  Have fun with the last word.

 

I stated that people were freaking out.  I stated that you were reading in, specifically, that nothing would be given.  I cited that this meant nothing about what was earned.  Elsewhere I did basic back-of-the-hand calculations (as DE should have) that indicated they could reasonably just calculate material feed and subsume xp, and confirm that players should have at least rank 14 if they were done...and likely rank 15.

 

I stand by the statement that DE is absolutely crap about using words to mean things.  I admit that this time the alternative interpretation was accurate.

 

Finally....DE never seems to listen to players.  They will listen to an overwhelming crash of hate....but the people willing to grind out helminth fully are likely to be a very minor voice.  I'm glad you believe otherwise.  I wish I still could.  I can only tell you that right now I'm drained.  The grind in this update is miserable....and as an insult DE gave us a 3 day booster....that due to build times will not be usable on the new frame.  It's...comically crap.

 

 

 

Regarding the additional nihilism...fine.  It isn't wrong, but we have a few weeks to Tennocon.  DE is releasing this turd, they'll polish for just long enough until they can make more promises, and by the time we're finally done with the grind walls they'll already be telling us about how the next thing will be great...while tacitly implying another helminth system or some additional grind wall.  Yay.

[Radu10]

On 2021-07-06 at 10:42 PM, master_of_destiny said:

stated that people were freaking out.  I stated that you were reading in, specifically, that nothing would be given.  I cited that this meant nothing about what was earned.  Elsewhere I did basic back-of-the-hand calculations (as DE should have) that indicated they could reasonably just calculate material feed and subsume xp, and confirm that players should have at least rank 14 if they were done...and likely rank 15.

After all this time I learned to consider and respect minority groups in this community and their suggestions, reports.

On 2021-07-06 at 10:42 PM, master_of_destiny said:

I stand by the statement that DE is absolutely crap about using words to mean things.  I admit that this time the alternative interpretation was accurate.

I'm glad you figured by yourself, this will help in future topic discussions there will be, hopefully others reading what happened here learned the lesson as well.

 

On 2021-07-06 at 10:42 PM, master_of_destiny said:

Finally....DE never seems to listen to players.  They will listen to an overwhelming crash of hate....but the people willing to grind out helminth fully are likely to be a very minor voice.  I'm glad you believe otherwise.  I wish I still could.  I can only tell you that right now I'm drained.  The grind in this update is miserable....and as an insult DE gave us a 3 day booster....that due to build times will not be usable on the new frame.  It's...comically crap.

I 100% agree with this, I don't like how DE manages bug fixes/suggestions and how they "listen" to their own community,
I had faith in the design council for years, but it seems this community needs stand up and be more loud about about issues in a more direct way than having such "council"... 

I would love to talk with some design council members myself to learn how DE manages bug reports and suggestions: priority, some kind of gerarchy within the council, how the bugs and suggestions are took from the forums area (I can still see 3+ years old bugs unresolved...)

So I don't like how DE made stuff behind the scenes with no feedback whatsoever and just throw it at community, for example the Helminth invigorations which is the worst thing being added in the updated by far.

I can get used to tweaks/nerfs/rebalances, but pseudo warframe rivens are a joke and an insult to the entire community!

[Ketec]

Invigorations suck. You basically get stuck with ones for frames you don't care about for a week.

[moondog548]

Invigorations are better than a stick in they eye.  I don't understand complaining about something new that's better than bad.

By all means suggest improvements, but seriously, keep some perspective please!

[xKostekx]

Is this value or buff is randomly, I mean let's assume I have in this week

Zephyr: 200% Power Strength and Immune To Status

and after few weeks I will get

Zephyr: 100% Power Strength and Immune To Status

or

Zephyr: 250% Melee Damage and 75% power Efficiency

[Rugre]

Golden Instinct is not really golden as it is right now. 🤢 Instead of being helpful, you spend a lot of time waiting for the cooldown;

so its just better to go to places and check with your own eyes. 


btw I really like the Invigorations system! 😍 it really added flavor do the game

[SECURATYYY]

Could we use helminth to boost some of our base stats on warframes? Trade resources for more sprint speed, dodge speed, armor, etc. Not strength/range/etc.

[IggySnow]

On 2021-07-10 at 9:23 AM, Rugre said:

Golden Instinct is not really golden as it is right now. 🤢 Instead of being helpful, you spend a lot of time waiting for the cooldown;

so its just better to go to places and check with your own eyes. 


btw I really like the Invigorations system! 😍 it really added flavor do the game

I just use it to check if an ayatan has spawned in a mission or not.

go to the mission, use golden instinct, if it activates speed through the mission and press it whenever its off cooldown to see if iv passed it or not.

if it doesn't activate at the start of the mission i abort and repeat the mission.

im averaging 2-3 ayatans every 10 min this way which is fantastic for endo farming.

[DarkSkysz]

Maybe we could pay more to select which frame we will get from invigoration?

 

Lets be honest... that big mouth will surely do some favors for us in exchange of some tasty materials... or sacrifices.

What I mean is, sacrifice a normal frame to make it a sure pick for invigorations.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

My segment is building now. I'm so excited to play around with the new system! And I'm glad it was added! This is gonna spice up how I play with all my different frames!

[xKostekx]

I thought Invigoration is permanent but I see it is for 7 days

[CrazyCatLad]

I logged in for the first time in forever to see how this Invigoration system sounds. 

I don't think it should be in the game.