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Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!


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8 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Yep!  Most of the Helminth abilities (from frames and from the mouth itself) require a significant investment in power strength.  This could be a really good ability if it doesn't.  I'm thinking about using it on my Maim (neg. strength) Equinox, as I don't want to give up my exilus for PSF when I rely on Cunning Drift to get every last bit of range I can.  I might also use it on Xaku and Ivara, though I do invest in strength in both of them.

 

Nezha's firewalker is unreliable for me due to me not actively standing in the flames most of the time.  Hildryn's pillage is fantastic, but it doesn't make you immune to status.  It's a cleanse.  Cloak arrow is great and all, but I don't often bother with its augment.  Spellbind is probably the best for my purposes, but it's a little clunky with the hold mechanic.  It's not as fast as I'd like.  I'm hoping Hideous Resistance is an instant cast, like Molt or Infested Mobility.

 

I'm not going to use Hideous Resistance on a ton of frames even if it's good.  But it's nice to have more options available.

Spellbind, and arrow quiver, don't take any investment in power strength. Why would you want it on ivara though? that's pretty much a waste, same for xaku. And if you'd be willing to use prime surefooted, I wouldn't know why you wouldn't want to "bother" with Ivara's augment. 

I mean, if you really find use for it then i'm happy for you.... but I still think it's an entire waste of an ability slot. Honestly If there are people like you who think that ONLY status immunity as an ability is worth even investing 13 helminth levels into--let alone actually using up an ability slot--then DE is seriously failing in many different places. I'm not someone who just habitually talks crap about DE, so it's not like I'm saying this just because I wanna crap on them. I constantly praise them, and you could see it in some of my recent feedback so I'm honestly not saying this just to bash on them. Though I'm also not gonna just say that everything they do is amazing, if there's clearly need for improvement. So if redundant/incomplete abilities like these really seem useful to people out there, then I'm also genuinely am seeing a lot of things wrong with this situation. 

I also have a feeling that it's just gonna be something that might sound good for you now, but never actually sees practical use once you've gotten it. Unless they make it essentially last the entire mission or something, it's gonna be a lot of work to constantly need to spam something through a mish if it's only to avoid KDs. Even if it was for the orb mother fights, it's still a lot to keep track of. You might even end up finding something else that works better for you due to this inconvenience (whether it already exists or DE will introduce it in the future)

Also, status immunity doesn't make you immune to all knockdowns/staggers. You might still get kd'd/staggered from object collision or some enemy attacks. It will work against blast, and impact, that's it. I know because I play Titania a lot, and I still need P. Sure Footed on her. 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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8 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Oh huh I didn't know about this. Though that's RNG based, and it's not inherent to the ability. It would take an entire mod slot just for an RNG chance at getting energy, so it's not exactly an "energy restore" ability. Meaning that protea has the only true energy restore ability in the helminth, and this new ability would be the second option. So it actually is something new in regards to the helminth, and it's also functional/usable standalone. (meaning it doesn't need some special conditions to do a thing)

It's not that simple.

Infused Dispensary needs Strength and/or Duration to function*. So it's the same as with other mods - needs slot or 2 to function.

* you can slap Arcane enegize to get some energy

Rng: yeah, it needs a lot of strength to be more reliable and even then 50% (for 200% strength) isn't something "wow". Still... if you have another slot you can put equilibrum to get 4 energy orbs.

There are few that restore more health or more energy so depending on how much it restore energy it can be "good".

Still, I'm not sure about solo aspect: if it restores HP for you & energy for allies then for solo players it might be meh.

10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I didn't even start using the helminth system until recently, and I'm deffo not close to lvl 10 lol

I have it maxed and subsumed ~44 frames. I've infused mostly what I needed. And if they keep that "go use Invig or Infuse random abilities" policy then I don't think I will use it.

However if I get hand of it:

10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

People who don't min-max aren't generally gonna be worried about getting more status procs, to the output that might actually make this ability useful... otherwise they would already be min-maxing, or they could just mod their weapon for more status procs. (considering mods would be a much more time efficient/cost-effective method of getting close to the same output of what this ability does) 

- A non-minmaxer wouldn't generally be worried about getting extra viral procs on saryn/ember. They might not even mess with the helminth system for the most part (if they did use it, it's probably just used on a handful of warframes) 

I'm not sure. I like to play with things and I will try it. It might not be useful but it might be fun.... well time will tell.

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2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Spellbind, and arrow quiver, don't take any investment in power strength. Why would you want it on ivara though? that's pretty much a waste, same for xaku. And if you'd be willing to use prime surefooted, I wouldn't know why you wouldn't want to "bother" with Ivara's augment. 

I mean, if you really find use for it then i'm happy for you.... but I still think it's an entire waste of an ability slot. Honestly If there are people like you who think that ONLY status immunity as an ability is worth even investing 13 helminth levels into--let alone actually using up an ability slot--then DE is seriously failing in many different places. I'm not someone who just habitually talks crap about DE, so it's not like I'm saying this just because I wanna crap on them. I constantly praise them, and you could see it in some of my recent feedback so I'm honestly not saying this just to bash on them. Though I'm also not gonna just say that everything they do is amazing, if there's clearly need for improvement. So if redundant/incomplete abilities like these really seem useful to people out there, then I'm also genuinely am seeing a lot of things wrong with this situation. 

I also have a feeling that it's just gonna be something that might sound good for you now, but never actually sees practical use once you've gotten it. Unless they make it essentially last the entire mission or something, it's gonna be a lot of work to constantly need to spam something through a mish if it's only to avoid KDs. Even if it was for the orb mother fights, it's still a lot to keep track of. You might even end up finding something else that works better for you due to this inconvenience (whether it already exists or DE will introduce it in the future)

Also, status immunity doesn't make you immune to all knockdowns/staggers. You might still get kd'd/staggered from object collision or some enemy attacks. It will work against blast, and impact, that's it. I know because I play Titania a lot, and I still need P. Sure Footed on her. 

I'm not worried about the investment.  I'm MR30 and have resources to burn.  I pick and choose what I go full-on completionist for in this game, and Helminth is one of those things (along with MR and most PVE syndicates).

 

Spellbind, as I've mentioned, doesn't always suit my tastes due to its hold targeting.  It feels slow sometimes.  And its augment rewards strength, for what it's worth.

 

Status immunity makes you immune to the worst offenders in this game: self damage staggers, ancients, scorpions, and other knockdown spam.  Yeah, you can get bumped around by fire eximi, but it's not that bad.

 

But you could be right about me not actually using it.  I was pumped up for the Helminth, raced to get it, immediately ate my one and only 1,2,1,2,1,2 because I don't enjoy playing him that much (Nidus), and stuck his larva on Equinox... only to never really use it.  And I was also really pumped for Marked for Death.... and now never really use it.  So maybe this will be similar.  Depending on numbers, I don't think so though.  As an Ivara main, I have a unique hatred for shock procs, bleeds, and toxin procs.  This might help.

 

Let me put it this way.  It's an option.  On certain frames, I have an ability I don't use that I have found no really suitable Helminth replacement for (and I'm not the type to just throw Roar or Eclipse on everything).  On certain frames, I don't have room for PSF (frames with range/strength breakpoints, frames that need something else in the exilus, frames that I don't want to invest yet another forma into).  This, then, is an option for me.

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On 2021-06-18 at 8:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

PARASITIC ARMOR (11)

Sacrifice Shields to reinforce Armor for a period of time
 

HIDEOUS RESISTANCE (12)

Grant yourself immunity to Status effects.
 

VORACIOUS METASTASIS (13)

Consume Energy to heal yourself and grant matching Energy to each ally.
 

SICKENING PULSE (14)

Emit a pulse that adds stacks to Status Effects already afflicting enemies, except Bleed or Toxin effects which are duplicated with fresh timers.
 

GOLDEN INSTINCT (15)

Send out a short-lived Void Spark that is drawn toward the nearest Medallion, Ayatan Sculpture, unscanned Kuria or unscanned Fragment.


 

 

 


 

I'm really curious about stat scaling for these.  If Golden Instinct works how I think it will (range + duration, maybe?), then it could be a fantastic addition to Maim/Cataclysm/Vast Untime medallion hunter builds.

 

Looking forward to the update!

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En 20/6/2021 a las 23:18, Kegnor97 dijo:

The thing about buffing is that not all abilities can be fixed with a simple number change, you could buff Inaros sandstorm for example, by increasing its damage, but the problem with sandstorm is that it offers no strategic advantage and even though it looks cool at first, its charm is lost pretty quickly, you cant change that with a simple number increase.

thats true but some only need that others require a rework that improves their abilities but everything its better than making this cheap band aid like seriusly arbitrations ramdon buff but apllied to all frames in all gamemodes ,they require months or just 2 hours to think in this? 

at this point if they really care about unpopular frames they will anonce a big rework for them but no they give us the coice of replace the useless abiltys of our frames ,negate themselves to buff those abilties that we replace ,and now they are going to give buffs every week to x frame ,whats next destroying frame default abilities entirely? here choose an apareance for your frames and now choose 4 abilties (please dont do this im joking) 

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On 2021-06-18 at 4:45 PM, Shadowradiance said:

Imo:

Remake this into an aura.

Every X sec, sends out a spark that costs X energy per spark to find treasure X. 

Since the sparks will die after a time, this just becomes a spam every X seconds ability anyway.

This should be a function of the existing Aura Mod Loot Radar Instead.

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hace 8 horas, Engilore dijo:

thats true but some only need that others require a rework that improves their abilities but everything its better than making this cheap band aid like seriusly arbitrations ramdon buff but apllied to all frames in all gamemodes ,they require months or just 2 hours to think in this? 

at this point if they really care about unpopular frames they will anonce a big rework for them but no they give us the coice of replace the useless abiltys of our frames ,negate themselves to buff those abilties that we replace ,and now they are going to give buffs every week to x frame ,whats next destroying frame default abilities entirely? here choose an apareance for your frames and now choose 4 abilties (please dont do this im joking) 

I'm not gonna lie, I would much rather that frames got a "Zephyr treatment" instead of using helmith on them, but the thing is, with the data they get from helmith usage they can have a much better idea of what people dislike, and with the envigirations they can get data on what frames people wiuld like to boost but don't find a good ability to put on them, remember that the zephyr rework got released after the helminth, that means that reworking or buffing frames is not outside DE's priorities even with Helmith existing

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14 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Spellbind, as I've mentioned, doesn't always suit my tastes due to its hold targeting.  It feels slow sometimes.  And its augment rewards strength, for what it's worth.

- In terms of the hold being annoying/long, it takes just as long as holding for ivara's quiver so i'm not sure how that's bothersome. Well actually, I could see it being annoying if you have her abilities inverted for tap/hold, since spellbind doesn't change with the ability inversion. But why can't DE just allow us to invert that as well?

- I didn't even know that it had an augment lol. So what if the augment rewards str? you wouldn't need the augment for status immunity

btw you keep mentioning str or damage abilities, in a negative connotation....  but i've not mentioned them once, so idk how that's relevant to getting status immunity.  Especially since this suggested ability doesn't require str either, so why not ignore str for all the other abilities as well? 

 

14 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I'm not worried about the investment.  I'm MR30 and have resources to burn.  I pick and choose what I go full-on completionist for in this game, and Helminth is one of those things (along with MR and most PVE syndicates).


well you are blessed, but not many ppl are in that position...  like myself.  It's like charging bill gates $10,000 for a sandwich, in addition to $100 for each bite & drink sip he takes. Sure he can afford it without a dent in his bank account, but It's still a pretty outrageous price. You wouldn't want every restaurant to make custom pricing just because you can afford to pay more, would you? 

I could see it being worth 13 lvls in helminth if it was jut a passive ability for a warframe, but not really for something that I'd need to spam the entire mission just so that it's useful. Especially since DE doesn't want us to use macros.

(small tangent about issues with how DE approaches things which should be more straightforward, like mild energy regen for starting players, or the past vaccum issues)

Spoiler

It also feels as if DE is always hesitant to just give a straightforward boon/ability, unless it's just a bunch of damage/health. Like they've told themselves that they ALWAYS need to overcomplicate most things which should already be inherently simple. (an example of this is the accessibility of energy regeneration early in the game, which means most low MR players or new players can't really enjoy their warframes... until they get a mod/pet which makes energy regeneration ENTIRELY redundant, at which point energy is mostly a non-issue... then why not just make the base regeneration better in the first place? doesn't need to be to the point where "rage" is not useful anymore, but at least so that a new player can use their abilities more than like 1-3 times per mission+ 1 more time for every 1-3energy motes)

This has resulted with them getting stuck in a "hands are tied" or "oops we regret making that" position SOOOOOOO many times. As a result tends to negaitvely impact player experience, or overcomplicates the game for developers which eventually leads to them making a huge overhaul/rework of an internal system. They could've just avoided that situation by thinking of the framework & structure more thoroughly, and instead used the time & dev resources for making new story missions/interesting gameplay/events/leveling systems/weapons/warframes/deluxe skins.

They could incorporate monetization & game difficulty in ^THOSE^ game aspects (like they already are, but they could focus on delivering a better quality product) instead of "mild inconveniences for players", which later causes DE to rethink an entire game system later down the road.

The helminth system/abilities feel like another system that's gonna be headed in that direction in the future.


 

14 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

As an Ivara main, I have a unique hatred for shock procs, bleeds, and toxin procs.  This might help.

How does that happen to ivara? Well Toxin I understand because of eximus, but wouldn't bleed and shock require you to get hit first? 

 

14 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Status immunity makes you immune to the worst offenders in this game: self damage staggers, ancients, scorpions, and other knockdown spam.  Yeah, you can get bumped around by fire eximi, but it's not that bad.

Yeah I could see the QoL benefits here,  if you really did already have a "useless/dead" ability due to personal gameplay style or particular mod build. (As long as the ability isn't annoying to use)


(bit of a rant here)

Spoiler


Part of the reason why I think it's a huge problem that anyone could see this as valuable (Especially someone at MR30, even if you have the resources to burn) is because there aren't really enough "actually threatening/problematic" status effects other than knockdown/stagger, radiation in a team, or toxin if you're using someone squishy/without Adaptation (which I think should still be able to kill us, not just stagger us but w/e). It's like having a super yacht for a super small lake, or a parachute for a trampoline. It's overkill for how comfortable and accommodating this game already is... it's more of a QoL investment, because status is a nuisance. 

The few maps with severe status issues, only have "the one status effect" in the map which can be easily circumvented through existing mods and/or arcanes (though if you don't want to constantly swap mods, then maybe this could be better). Enemies are too much of a cluster-fudge to have any semblance of organization so if DE were to introduce more dynamic difficulty which might be fun/interesting, then it would quickly become too much for the player to handle since they can't keep up with the numbers of enemies.

There's also not much complicated logic behind enemy AI, or interesting enemy combat patterns outside of some bosses. There's a huge difference between player health and enemy health, just like there's a huge difference between enemy damage and player damage. So even for steel path, damaging status effects never really seemed like an issue. 

Hence imo, there isn't even a framework which would make an ability like this useful atm... outside of the occasional stagger/knockback ability, or eximus aura for ivara--which is mostly just a nuisance and not generally an actual threat, unless you're playing with super high lvl enemies without any crowd control. 

In addition to the fact that they could've added more straightforward flavors in other gameplay areas, like arcanes, or the focus tree.

 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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Yeah...the notion that all of my progress past level 10 being forgotten by DE because they can't be bothered to make a simple script to give you the proper xp amount for your subsumed warframes is nonsense.  You come out and regularly tell the community which warframes are being subsumed and recycled yet some how a simple script is too much for you guys at DE, really?  Unlikely, probably you just don't want to, least amount of effort put in. 

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29 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

- In terms of the hold being annoying/long, it takes just as long as holding for ivara's quiver so i'm not sure how that's bothersome. Well actually, I could see it being annoying if you have her abilities inverted for tap/hold, since spellbind doesn't change with the ability inversion. But why can't DE just allow us to invert that as well?

- I didn't even know that it had an augment lol. So what if the augment rewards str? you wouldn't need the augment for status immunity

btw you keep mentioning str or damage abilities, in a negative connotation....  but i've not mentioned them once, so idk how that's relevant to getting status immunity.  Especially since this suggested ability doesn't require str either, so why not ignore str for all the other abilities as well? 

 


well you are blessed, but not many ppl are in that position...  like myself.  It's like charging bill gates $10,000 for a sandwich, in addition to $100 for each bite & drink sip he takes. Sure he can afford it without a dent in his bank account, but It's still a pretty outrageous price. You wouldn't want every restaurant to make custom pricing just because you can afford to pay more, would you? 

I could see it being worth 13 lvls in helminth if it was jut a passive ability for a warframe, but not really for something that I'd need to spam the entire mission just so that it's useful. Especially since DE doesn't want us to use macros.

(small tangent about issues with how DE approaches things which should be more straightforward, like mild energy regen for starting players, or the past vaccum issues)

  Reveal hidden contents

It also feels as if DE is always hesitant to just give a straightforward boon/ability, unless it's just a bunch of damage/health. Like they've told themselves that they ALWAYS need to overcomplicate most things which should already be inherently simple. (an example of this is the accessibility of energy regeneration early in the game, which means most low MR players or new players can't really enjoy their warframes... until they get a mod/pet which makes energy regeneration ENTIRELY redundant, at which point energy is mostly a non-issue... then why not just make the base regeneration better in the first place? doesn't need to be to the point where "rage" is not useful anymore, but at least so that a new player can use their abilities more than like 1-3 times per mission+ 1 more time for every 1-3energy motes)

This has resulted with them getting stuck in a "hands are tied" or "oops we regret making that" position SOOOOOOO many times. As a result tends to negaitvely impact player experience, or overcomplicates the game for developers which eventually leads to them making a huge overhaul/rework of an internal system. They could've just avoided that situation by thinking of the framework & structure more thoroughly, and instead used the time & dev resources for making new story missions/interesting gameplay/events/leveling systems/weapons/warframes/deluxe skins.

They could incorporate monetization & game difficulty in ^THOSE^ game aspects (like they already are, but they could focus on delivering a better quality product) instead of "mild inconveniences for players", which later causes DE to rethink an entire game system later down the road.

The helminth system/abilities feel like another system that's gonna be headed in that direction in the future.


 

How does that happen to ivara? Well Toxin I understand because of eximus, but wouldn't bleed and shock require you to get hit first? 

 

Yeah I could see the QoL benefits here,  if you really did already have a "useless/dead" ability due to personal gameplay style or particular mod build. (As long as the ability isn't annoying to use)


(bit of a rant here)

  Hide contents


Part of the reason why I think it's a huge problem that anyone could see this as valuable (Especially someone at MR30, even if you have the resources to burn) is because there aren't really enough "actually threatening/problematic" status effects other than knockdown/stagger, radiation in a team, or toxin if you're using someone squishy/without Adaptation (which I think should still be able to kill us, not just stagger us but w/e). It's like having a super yacht for a super small lake, or a parachute for a trampoline. It's overkill for how comfortable and accommodating this game already is... it's more of a QoL investment, because status is a nuisance. 

The few maps with severe status issues, only have "the one status effect" in the map which can be easily circumvented through existing mods and/or arcanes (though if you don't want to constantly swap mods, then maybe this could be better). Enemies are too much of a cluster-fudge to have any semblance of organization so if DE were to introduce more dynamic difficulty which might be fun/interesting, then it would quickly become too much for the player to handle since they can't keep up with the numbers of enemies.

There's also not much complicated logic behind enemy AI, or interesting enemy combat patterns outside of some bosses. There's a huge difference between player health and enemy health, just like there's a huge difference between enemy damage and player damage. So even for steel path, damaging status effects never really seemed like an issue. 

Hence imo, there isn't even a framework which would make an ability like this useful atm... outside of the occasional stagger/knockback ability, or eximus aura for ivara--which is mostly just a nuisance and not generally an actual threat, unless you're playing with super high lvl enemies without any crowd control. 

In addition to the fact that they could've added more straightforward flavors in other gameplay areas, like arcanes, or the focus tree.

 

I'll address your points in order.

 

Power Strength: You're right, it's not necessarily a negative for an ability to be focused on it, and I don't have to invest in it to get use out of Titania's Spellbind.  I'm hopeful that we will have a wider range of Helminth abilities (from frames and from the mouth) that don't rely on strength, though, as most of them currently do.  And it feels like if you're going to use the Helminth, it only makes sense for high strength builds... more often than not.

 

Spellbind Casting Speed: I mentioned I'm an Ivara main, and I play her like a glass cannon.  The difference in speed between a tap and hold ability is massive.  If it's an insta-cast like Molt, this Hideous Resistance power gains even more utility as a shield-gate trigger, or reflex response to an ancient tendril.  Speaking of that, I wonder if it will block ancient energy drain like Nezha's halo does.  Hmm.

 

Cost: I never found the Helminth that grindy.  Its resource costs only start to sting if you ignore what it's in the mood for and try to rush it.  I think adding more levels is a good thing, as it's more to do.

 

Spamming It the Entire Mission: That depends on numbers.  I run Primed Continuity on almost every frame, so I'm hopeful it will have a decent base duration to capitalize on that.  Spamming it would get annoying, sure.  I'm hopeful that it will have a longer duration than Spellbind, as that feels a bit short.

 

The Danger of Status Effects: Those arc traps are absolutely brutal to Ivara.  I run a glass cannon build, as mentioned above.  6 seconds of shock proc means 6 seconds of compromised shield gate and perhaps death.  Yeah, I could be invisible.  And I often am.  But not when I'm racing through a map.  Shock is really dangerous in new (everything Fortuna and beyond) Corpus too.  Corpus Railjack has a lot of nasty shock procs.  Bleed procs are really only dangerous in the Kuva fortress, and once you know where they are going to happen, they can be avoided relatively easily.

 

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On 2021-06-24 at 3:14 AM, quxier said:

It's not that simple.

Infused Dispensary needs Strength and/or Duration to function*. So it's the same as with other mods - needs slot or 2 to function.

* you can slap Arcane enegize to get some energy

Rng: yeah, it needs a lot of strength to be more reliable and even then 50% (for 200% strength) isn't something "wow". Still... if you have another slot you can put equilibrum to get 4 energy orbs.

There are few that restore more health or more energy so depending on how much it restore energy it can be "good".

Still, I'm not sure about solo aspect: if it restores HP for you & energy for allies then for solo players it might be meh.

I seeeee your pov, especially in regards to being "meh" in solo-play since half of its functionality would be gone (no energy restore). If you just wanted a heal, you could use a pizza or mods on your pets, or better yet get Trin's ability. I get that. 
 

Yeah, I generally find myself using protea's dispensary because of arcane energize... without that, it wouldn't be nearly as useful. 

Also, had forgotten about equilibrium, so true that it could be useful. (more useful than the dispensary, for ppl w/o energize)

 

On 2021-06-24 at 3:14 AM, quxier said:

I'm not sure. I like to play with things and I will try it. It might not be useful but it might be fun.... well time will tell.

Sure, that's a fair PoV. I would probably see it the same way, if it was just at a lower helminth level. 

For me personally, it would just feel cumbersome to need to use it right after any big status effect, which would leave a bad taste in my mouth because it took so much investment just for something that feels cumbersome to me. Like it's something I would want to automate somehow, because it seems redundant to manually run a script/checklist as "gameplay. So I'd personally find it more fun if it was more of a random-chance proc which happens UPON hitting with a weapon, or using an ability--like an arcane might do. 
 

 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

...And it feels like if you're going to use the Helminth, it only makes sense for high strength builds... more often than not.

I do agree that helminth abilities feel like they're lacking creativity/diversity in direction. From that perspective, I could see how "status immunity" would feel like a fresh new direction.
 

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Spellbind Casting Speed: I mentioned I'm an Ivara main, and I play her like a glass cannon.  The difference in speed between a tap and hold ability is massive.  If it's an insta-cast like Molt, this Hideous Resistance power gains even more utility as a shield-gate trigger, or reflex response to an ancient tendril.  Speaking of that, I wonder if it will block ancient energy drain like Nezha's halo does.  Hmm.

Hmmmm that's true. I forgot about the response for a glass-cannon type, so yeah now I can see what you mean. I play my saryn more like a brawler than a nuker, and for higher lvl content she can still die fairly easy because she's constantly in melee. Having the fast-response molt (like you referenced) is deffo a HUGE asset, and reason as to why I can play her like that. 
 

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Cost: I never found the Helminth that grindy.  Its resource costs only start to sting if you ignore what it's in the mood for and try to rush it.  I think adding more levels is a good thing, as it's more to do.

I mean it more in the sense  of a time investment, than resource investment tbh. For the time it would take to level up the helminth, it would leave a bad taste if the  higher level abilities don't really feel rewarding or feel cumbersome to use. This is why I still think the ability is redundant or needs to do more/better than simply status immunity.

Actual resource wise, it wouldn't be too much of an issue unless the player is brand new.  
...Or unless you're one of the many players who also gets shafted out of their warframe subsumation exp.... that kinda sucks for them (thankfully I didn't though, since I barely use the helminth)
 

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Spamming It the Entire Mission: That depends on numbers.  I run Primed Continuity on almost every frame, so I'm hopeful it will have a decent base duration to capitalize on that.  Spamming it would get annoying, sure.  I'm hopeful that it will have a longer duration than Spellbind, as that feels a bit short.


Well if you're only running P. Cont, then let's hope the duration is longer than spellbind's. Even with 200% duration on my pixie-frame, I still need to re-cast it every 35s
 

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

The Danger of Status Effects: Those arc traps are absolutely brutal to Ivara.  I run a glass cannon build, as mentioned above.  6 seconds of shock proc means 6 seconds of compromised shield gate and perhaps death.  Yeah, I could be invisible.  And I often am.  But not when I'm racing through a map.  Shock is really dangerous in new (everything Fortuna and beyond) Corpus too.  Corpus Railjack has a lot of nasty shock procs.  Bleed procs are really only dangerous in the Kuva fortress, and once you know where they are going to happen, they can be avoided relatively easily.

Oh right, did they recently buff those traps? I ask because they did feel stronger than I remembered them being. They used to be irrelevant, but when I recently started playing again, they did feel like somewhat of a threat if I didn't pay attention to them. 

 Yeah shock traps and slash from kuva is fair, but would status immunity also prevent the shock trap damage? Or is it only the shock status effect that bothers you?

I sorta hope DE keeps adding new types of "traps" like that... not so much that it's overbearing, but enough that it'll keep us on our toes, and make us want to be more aware of our surroundings. Maybe we can also blow some of them up to hurt enemies as well too (like in corpus mish)

(P.S. / Edit: I do still think the ability needs to have more utility than just "status immunity for self" or otherwise change a passive. Though I also understand your perspective in which you might find it usable if it has good duration & energy cost, and instant casting)

Edited by Maka.Bones
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I still think helminth infested abilities as passives has merit. This conversation just makes me believe that much more strongly that helminth’s unique abilities and subsumed warframe powers shouldn’t compete for the same space functionally.

But perhaps together…

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18 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

would status immunity also prevent the shock trap damage? Or is it only the shock status effect that bothers you?

This kind of response is self-defeating to be honest, the issue is with the 6 second shock proc, as that deals far more damage than the actual arc trap DPS - along with as mentioned completely disabling the ability to shield-gate without use of external fixes (Arcane Aegis, Augur mods, Brief Respite, etc). 

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17 hours ago, iPathos said:

This kind of response is self-defeating to be honest, the issue is with the 6 second shock proc, as that deals far more damage than the actual arc trap DPS - along with as mentioned completely disabling the ability to shield-gate without use of external fixes (Arcane Aegis, Augur mods, Brief Respite, etc). 

I don't think self-defeating is the actual word you're looking for. Considering the objective wasn't even to defeat or defend anything. Maybe redundant? Or just ignorant? The comment just showed that I didn't understand where shock traps dealt their damage from. However if you're referring to the previous discussion I was having with another dude, it doesn't mean that shock status damage dealt to tenno can translate to shock status inherently/easily dealing large damage to enemies. We have much smaller health pools yanno?

 

But thank you for explaining how the shock traps deal damage; that was helpful (actual genuine thanks, no sarcasm intended)

 

P.S. I don't actually argue/discuss with intent of being correct or "winning" hence why I did say to "sunderthefirament" that I do have a better understanding of why they find something useful, and I can relate somewhat--even if I still think that the nature of the ability needs to more than simply temp status immunity. 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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23 hours ago, Azimbee said:

I still think helminth infested abilities as passives has merit. This conversation just makes me believe that much more strongly that helminth’s unique abilities and subsumed warframe powers shouldn’t compete for the same space functionally.

But perhaps together…

Yeah for sure, more flavors would be nice!

 

Edit:

Though the Idea from the guy above you is also nice. Having augments as helminth customizations sounds pretty awesome. Well maybe not all the augments, but some? 

For me it's mostly that I'd enjoy ways to customize which makes gameplay/customization feel more intuitive. I'm in the "QoL meta" (that's not actually a thing, I just mean that I prefer something that feels good over something that is OP but feels clunky to use). 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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So, to those of us who Subsumed EVERY SINGLE FRAME (currently, ending off with Sevagoth, since SoP isn't out yet) aren't getting any compensation? Any xp, levels or anything towards the 5 extra levels of Helminth.

So basically we have to take it on the chin, that we wasted the recourses building/buying the frames to subsume. The wait times, the farming, we are supposed to literally take it on the chin and waste MORE recourses, just to get the levels we should already have, since there was no warning of a level increase; to make us hold off on subsuming... At least give us some kind of compensation, I feel hecked off for this, let alone all the nerfs, and "buffs" coming to the arsenal.

 

it's literally unfair, but I guess that's what the game is coming to now. The best thing to do anymore with the game, is to play 3 days of the new update, and hold off on anything that will be changed, increased, buffed, nerfed or decreased in the next update.

Edited by (XBOX)SuperJoker115
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I dont mind the expansion, it looks nice and time will tell if its good but i came here to say...

I very much dislike being cheated

I farmed every single frame all over again, even those that are horrible to farm, in order to max out Helmith and have it all unlocked

Ill use an example: paid full price for a car being sure is whole but now i find out its missing 1/3 of the parts, no refunds obviously (cant refarm frames to subsume)

I still hope this issue will be addressed, dont punish your most devoted Tenno for their devotion

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9 hours ago, Raskol said:

I dont mind the expansion, it looks nice and time will tell if its good but i came here to say...

I very much dislike being cheated

I farmed every single frame all over again, even those that are horrible to farm, in order to max out Helmith and have it all unlocked

Ill use an example: paid full price for a car being sure is whole but now i find out its missing 1/3 of the parts, no refunds obviously (cant refarm frames to subsume)

I still hope this issue will be addressed, dont punish your most devoted Tenno for their devotion

Exactly what I am talking about. It's so unfair and stupid, we need some compensation for all frames being subsumed. Especially for us that FARMED and DID NOT PURCHASE. Harrow, Nidus, Khora, Sevagoth, Trinity, (and the ones you have to redeem from Simaris) Titania, Inaros, Atlas, Mirage, Limbo an all those frames. 
 

we need compensation, 

 

recourse refund, affinity head start, maybe start us ar Helminth Level 12-13? No instant level up is absolute Bull💩.

 

unless we are as I said... Expected to just take it on the chin with all the stuff we wasted, expected to waste more. When we could've just stopped when it was at 10, because there were no hints, or points at a level increase. 
 

it's unfair to those (like me) who are completionists, who like having everything done in the game, put the time and effort into doing such things. Then something is added or removed, and no one gets compensation.

 

the only times I remember anything of compensation, is when Recourses were nerfed in requirement for the Railjack. For us who played the Raids before they were removed. Those are the only 2 times I remember compensation.

 

please... Give us who farmed our way to having EVERY current Helminth warframe ability available. (All Frames Subsumed)

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I was wondering how much XP it will be to get to rank 15 of helminth and how many subsumptions/infusions that was.

According to the wiki the first rank costs 2250 XP and then each rank 1125 than the one before. So rank 10 currently is 73125 cumulative XP. So rank 20 looks likely to cost 18000 XP itself and 151875 XP cumulatively, slightly more than twice the current limit. Getting from rank 10 to rank 15 would require 78750 XP.

Each warframe subsumption yields 1600 XP, and the resources to feed it approximately 210 * 6.66 = ~1400 XP (rough average of used resource points * XP per resource point), so together 3000 XP. So rank 14 would take about 44 frames and rank 15 50 frames. That seems fairly reasonable for someone who hasn't subsumed any at this point - by the time all 46 current frames are subsumed they will be rank 14 and a third of the way to rank 15 even without any infusing.

For people who have subsumed all the frames it's less sensible though. An average ability appears to yield around 800 XP when infused, and the resources for feeding around 666 XP, so 1466 XP roughly per infusion. To go from rank 10 to rank 15 would take around 54 infusions, effectively one ability for every frame and eight with two abilities. The resource cost  is pretty similar, but the main difficulty here at least for me is finding that many good ability combinations.

I'd quite like a reason to experiment more with helminth, but the current system feels like it punishes experimentation with the cost of swapping (both in time and resources) and the general clunkiness. These extra ranks without XP feel like adding pressure with very little incentive, which is off-putting.

I'd prefer maybe a system where once an ability is infused it is kept on that frame and can be swapped in and out easily from the arsenal like a mod - this would give me a reason to infuse lots of abilities, and would reduce the thought needed before infusing an ability as the ultimate goal would be to infuse all abilities on all frames, however unachievable that might be.

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I think this method is not to strengthen the main weapon. It is to increase the melee entry level. If this version update is a version where players have no game experience. This approach is unacceptable. A very unfavorable version. A change that is very irresponsible to the player.This change will only make the melee purple card properties better and better. It would be better to directly strengthen the primary and secondary weapons.

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I think this is a change without the gaming experience. If the weapon is changed like this. I don't think I need to play this game anymore. It is impossible for ordinary players like me to get everything together. It is impossible to collect and play all the enhanced modules. After finally figuring out the module, your version is completely weakened for me. Since such changes cause the game to not bring me happiness, why don't I consider quitting. Maybe it doesn't matter if a player leaves. But this change I don't believe that no player will not leave because of this change.

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